An American pilot's request for extra wake turbulence separation in Atlanta led to a canceled takeoff clearance, a testy exchange with ATC, and a very unhelpful Frontier pilot.
Ben said it best... "oy."
I wonder what Kennedy Steve will say about this.
Obsolete dinosaurs arguing about jurassic issues.
Both of them are obsolete and should have been replaced by now.
Frontier pilot is begging for payback. He should STFU unless there is some direct consequence his way. I wonder if the AA pilot, or anyone else hearing the ATC audio, can track down this fool?
*statement based on pure trolling with no evidence of real-world capabilities to replace them presented/demonstrated.
Eskimo clearly has no clue as to the necessity for both ATC and Pilots. Check back in 50 years, and we can reevaluate that comment.
And just keep on killing innocent lives because obsolete dinosaurs refuse to be obsolete.
Since 737576CA is new here. I'll do a bit more explaining. IYKYK.
Ultimately human emotions still override statistics. It's the physiological trust asymmetry.
Once human defies logic, you get dinosaurs like JoePro. No point in explaining any more if the response is to always to reject.
One important factor is missing here.
Wake separation is not a standard distance in a manual. There is a minimum separation specified but local conditions can increase that.
From a pilot perspective, the required separation can depend in real time based on what happened with the plane in front. Did it do a very short take off because of a light load in which case the following plane might encounter the turbulence at a different time than if the plane did a long roll before take off, etc.
So, it was perfectly within the pilot's prerogative to ask for a short pause. It is a judgment call for the safety of the plane. Controller will have to consider it but also base it on what may be lined up for landing on short final which would screw up that separation. Aircraft waiting to take off isn't a factor.
This is more on this controller than the pilot. Pilots are ultimately responsible for the safety of their aircraft. Controllers can't be on a power trip to deny a request unless they know it cause a problem in which case they can communicate that.
Without the full transcript, I would blame the controller for this.
The controller was being petty. The captain could have been more diplomatic but is ultimately responsible for flight safety.
The pilots are correct. If they want more separation, the controllers should allow it. Would the controller rather have a crash on the runway?
I flew out of ATL this morning. The pilot was absolutely correct. His comment about calm winds and the 757 taking off is pertinent to the situation. A heavy 75 on a calm wind day is a case study in creating wake turbulence over a runway. I can't tell you how many times ATL will clear you for takeoff before the guy in front of you has even rotated! Happens all the time. I tell my FOs that we'll wait for the guy to at least get off the ground before we start our takeoff roll. What if he were to abort?! Anyway, the controller saying he's done the job for 26 years should have been embarrassed to admit that, given how wrong he was in this scenario. And if he doesn't want a pilot to tell him how to do his job, then hopefully his supervisor will educate him.
319 pilot should have just waited another 30 seconds. If ATC questioned it he should have replied “Did you clear us for Takeoff?” I spent 40 years flying the line and BS is a great way to handle this crap!
This seems great at first glance, but the 319 would have had to respond right away to the take-off clearance, or they would have been called again by tower. So then, wouldn't it be weird to ask "Did you clear us for Takeoff?” when you had literally read that clearance back on frequency 30 seconds ago?? (Just a private pilot here, hopefully soon to be commercial).
The ATC IS WRONG and a jerk. The pilot is and always in charge of his plane and the safety of it and it's occupants. If the pilot wanted a little separation maybe 30 seconds or so, the absolutely he should've gotten it.
Too busy to post a link to the audio?
It doesn't seem two-sided to this pilot. The PIC is responsible for the flight including its safety, and while that's a great excuse to allow FA power-trips and forced customer deplaning, in cases of separation it's definitely about safety, and definitely the PIC's call to make.
What could the PIC have done differently? 1. Reject the takeoff clearance "unable." 2. Take his time on the static takeoff. At 250kts, the departing 757 would be gone within the 20-30 seconds suggested in the writeup.
What could the controller have done differently? Allow more space in case of a slow rotation on the departing AC or faster takeoff of the following flight. Tighten up his Depend® to match his sphincter, and request a potty break so it would come out the non-microphone end.
Frontier suck-up and stuff - will opine on hearing the audio that couldn't be bothered to be posted. Missed Boat =1.
@ gavron -- "Too busy to post a link to the audio?"
Sorry, that's directed at me? If so, the audio is in the YouTube video, which is embedded in the post.
Pilot in command is right to request wait, for the safety of his aircraft. ATC is also right to reject their take off clearance and force them to requeue. It’s a pity and power tripping move but thats that. Any further argument isn’t necessary and just adds to the overall stress levels.
Years ago, I encountered as similar situation when I was a co-pilot. The captain's response was perfect, he said 'you fly your tower & we'll fly our airplane".
Condescending controllers are the worst. They forget that they are referees in a Super Bowl game. They're jock straps...support...they are not the players.
Condescending controllers are the worst. They forget that they are referees in a Super Bowl game. They're jock straps...support...they are not the players.
You should compare them to referees in a Super Bowl game.
In sports, every team has a winning chance and referee are expected to be neutral.
For this, there's always a one sided loser. The passengers.
Not excusing the pilot’s attitude but AA did have a crash due to wake turbulence on takeoff, look up AA587. Second deadliest air accident in the US.
While I can see that both parties could have handled this a little better, I agree with the pilot in this case. And where is the "possible pilot deviation" in this case? Seems really petty on the controller's part.
You might find it interesting to know that the pilot has zero requirement to call that number when the controller gives it to him. By calling it, it simply allows the pilot to have his input recorded for any investigation that may follow.
Honestly the only person I've observed who is routinely publishing valid and worthwhile articles about ATC is Anna Giaritelli with the Washinton Examiner.
"Obsolete dinosaurs arguing about jurassic issues."
"power trip"
Troll can't even pick a lane.
That Frontier pilot can perform one helluva’ virtual rimjob on that petulant ATC baby. The pilot’s tongue was practically coming out of the ATC’s mouth.
ATL ATC has often been lippy like this. A pilot has the expectation for ATC to provide safe distances to avoid wake without being asked, but whenever a pilot sees circumstances that could require additional time or distance to avoid wake then ATC shouldn't resist. It's called working together. Pilots are concerned for the safety of the plane and all the passengers. ATC often is more concerned about keeping the quotas.
The Captain was 100% correct to request additional time for traffic separation. Impossible to know how quickly T/O clearance will be issued when lining up for T/O. There was no need for the tower controller to make his snide comment. He either grants the additional 20 seconds or issues taxi instructions. The plane is on a T/O only runway, no landing traffic to sequence. The Captain should have been more professional and not said anything. Once clear of the runway and on the taxi way, have the FO contact ground and ask for the phone number of the tower supervisor. After landing at destination and shutdown. The CA calls his Chief Pilot and Dispatcher, then the tower supervisor. Both parties know better. The CA has final authority over the A/C and has the ultimate authority to decide if a clearance is acceptable. NOT the ATC Controller.
As someone getting their PPL it is 100% up to the pilot to look after these things. I was asked about this on my pre-solo knowledge test about wake separation and as an Aerospace Engineer wake turbulence is definitely a thing…
ATC should not have made this remark
Someone with more knowledge can correct me. Why was this pilot asked to not wait till he had the separation requested and than given clearance for takeoff. Why was he asked to go back to the taxiway.
Because the ATC was a jerk on a power trip. Anywhere outside the US this attitude would get him fired.
Not like people's lives are on the line or anything.
Wtf?! grow up.