I’m not sure this negotiating tactic is quite the flex that Lufthansa management thinks that it is, but goodness, it sure makes for an interesting topic…
Continue reading: Lufthansa Claims It’s So Unprofitable That It Can’t Afford New Planes
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Kinda funny how they're saying this as they're trying to move a lot of functions from those profitable other airlines/divisions to their HQ.
The Labor leaders should push for performance improvement plans for all of LH management as a response.
“Gasp” Thank you so much Ben, for cheering me up on what is such a dull afternoon here in the shires.
You definitely have a sense of humour and proven that you possess a sense of adventure too. Your humour was displayed when you mentioned AF and BA in the same sentence. Your sense of adventure by doing so in the full knowledge that the website trolls will never forgive you for doing so.
On a serious note …. crack on with your intentions to fly to Iraq and visit Baghdad, your feedback will be greatly appreciated by the adventurous amongst us.
Lufthansa offers the following:
- crappy short haul economy service (basically, the same as Ryanair, you pay for everything)
-crappy long haul business class (average, unremarkable service, fa’s who look like they would prefer to be elsewhere)
-ridiculously basic lounges at their home airports, unbelievably disappointing.
They need to address these issues, if they want to catch up with other airlines. Air France, KLM, BA all better…
Best lounges in Europe offered by Aegean in Athens, then KLM in Amsterdam. LH execs should go take a look and compare with their own…
Lufthansa is a mess. A tired brand with dated products. The Allegris set up is too complicated, overly engineered, and it doesn't make sense that they didn't go for something simpler. Their flagship premium brand LX, is also a study in mediocrity.
Lufthansa employs 60 year old overweight ladies and guys for their stewardess programs. Literally no appeal for the average traveler these days.
LH doesn't need to be excellent. It has all the business contracts and a strangle on flights at FRA and MUC. It could be worse than Ryanair and it would still have a future. The government will bail it out anyway no matter what.
Perhaps the Executive Board should also find some savings on their own bonuses.
I've flown LH F once. I've had kinder and more attentive service in JL J. The FA bristled at my request for several apps and second helping of caviar. Didn't get to experience the fancy FRA F terminal, just F lounge in MUC (which seemed quite nice though my time there was limited).
Meh
People care more about the FAs job performance than their looks. At least, most people do.
Well said, Ben.
LH is a shadow of her former self.
I am just wondering: neither are the LH fares cheap, nor are the planes empty - where is LH losing the money?
C/Y to the US is still full-full, same to Asia.
C/Y within Europe is regularly full and oversold. In Y you get water and a small piece of chocolate.
My last OS flights have been worse than the ones with TP (in C!), just LX in their 777's is still OK-ish.
They shall fire their top managers and hire some top managers from AFKL - look how their performance, hard- and soft product and overall image and revenue went up! As far as I remember it all started with a true "premium" strategy and Billion-invests.
It could also be just hollywood accounting. Airline itself is losing money but loyalty programme or something alike makes the whole group profitable.
Not true at all. This is why Asian and Middle Eastern carriers are far better than murikan or European airlines.
Ana, Julia …. The more attractive the FA ‘eye candy’ the more appreciated and profitable the airline. You might not like the facts but look at the Airline World Rankings for conformation. Thereafter, please refrain from shooting this messenger …. 🙂
Maybe if their airline wasn't a clown-filled circus that makes RyanAir feel premium they wouldn't be in such a mesS???
You’re right and the solution seems simple enough: ALL pay and benefits for the CEO should be no more than 10X all median pay and benefits for the average employee, doubled if the airline reaches certain profitability and financial goals. Lower level executives would be compensated on the same basis but at lower rates.
In the unlikely event that you’re right, so what? I’d rather get great service from a grandmother than inept service from some cute young woman.
If you’re choosing your airlines and/or routes based on how attractive you find the flight attendants then you have substantial issues.
Lufthansa may just mirror the fact that Germany as a whole is not performing well
Lufty: I'm broke..
SkyTrax: Awww...here, have another * for consistent perjury & hyperbole.
Lufty: Yay! Me a genuine 7* airline now.
Well, this is a bit overstated. Both LX and LH lounges are perfectly fine. Not SQ style, but fine.
I actively avoid LH C/F, but LX F I had always nice experience and staff and C mostly nice or at least standard. Not speaking about hard product, where C seats are really dated. But as for the service, it could be better for sure, but is OK for the price, which is constantly significantly lower than AF/KL. Which brings me to the quote of my boss “Good brands have stories, others have discounts”.
Yet the Lufthansa Group had the money to invest €325 million Euro for a 41% stake in ITA another €28 million Euro in Air Baltic this year and LH also has made a bid for 49% of TAP Air Portugal.
When you're throwing money at other European Carriers like LH has been doing over the past few years I can't blame LH employees for asking for their piece of the pie as well.
Some thoughts:
Lufthansa's state is not dissimilar to other large German corporations and "public services". Porsche (once the most profitable German car manufacturer) reduces guidance seemingly every quarter because they went all in on EVs which move mainly as lease specials, and a suboptimal portfolio of sports cars even with 911 price increases and limitless demand. These corps are caught between a bad regulatory environment and bad management that perpetually coasts on a reputation from the 1980s and have so much hubris that they think they're the smartest people in the world for doing it.
Deutsche Bahn's problem is well known, Frankfurt Airport is also pretty disfunctional. Bottom line is that this idea that Germany is some ruthlessly efficient environment where everything is exceptional quality is no longer true (if it ever was) and mostly a stereotype among people who've never spent a lot of time there.
To the regulatory environment and hubris points, these can explain most of the problems that can't be attributed to bad luck. Labour relations, asinine restrictions like curfews, being compelled to buy all Airbus, even the turds like the 346, etc. EU regs adding costs is well known - LHs incomptence differentiates it from AFKL and BA/IB here.
But LH just has a worse decision track record. I love the 346, 748, and 388 as an enthusiast, but choosing all of these niche, non-standard fleet types is highly questionable. Should have got a bunch of 77Ws like BA and AF. Or maybe 77W and 748 only for floor space on the 748. 787s should have been ordered much earlier to replace the 343s. Really LH's fleet and onboard product should look a lot like BAs given similar market characteristics.
The Allegris debacle is fully attributable to hubris, no objective reason to choose that over off-the-shelf like club suites. LH took 17 brand new A350s with their old J, starting two years AFTER Air Canada (JV) introduced super diamond seats on their 787 (AC for that matter had direct aisle access since like 2011). Heck, super diamonds could have conceivably fit on many 748s and A333s at delivery as well. And worst of all, there's no sense of ever cutting losses and admitting that you were wrong.
And finally that brings us to an unfocussed subsidiary strategy with unclear group synergies. They should have LH (FRA and MUC) and LX as country flagships with comprehensive networks and high J. Subcontract regional flying like US carriers do, realize synergies across the group. OS and SN with OS serving local demand and eastern Europe, SN some high demand long haul and Africa connections. Eurowings is the cheap one, offers short and long haul to everywhere else, and it should all be coordinated from FRA. There's no good reason for Discover, City Airlines, Edelweiss, Air Dolimiti to even exist. And the AZ acquisition is highly questionable, adding another management structure and an infamous track record to a group that can't properly run existing airlines.
A predictable tactic, this claim of poverty.
Management has become a laughingstock. They have the employees fly around uncomfortable, dirty planes, paltry if not poverty level food. And…Apologetic flight attendants.
Out. Of. Touch.
Probably off topic but for the most part I never felt welcomed flying them even first class.They tried to tell me to go to the business class lounge when i had access to the First Class lounge in Frankfurt.
But the biggest reason I left them years ago or would have used them regularly was expiring miles.Went with BA instead.While their First Class lounge may be a bit below Lufthansa they are also in One World which I prefer
Same reason I dumped Singapore expiring miles
Without LH there is no LH Group. There is no way Swiss, Austrian, Brussels, and Eurowings (not including ITA they just joined) are propping up LH Mainline but also fueling LH Groups continued investment in other carriers like ITA, Air Baltic and possibly TAP Air Portugal.
Without question LH is a mess but they are not poor, and I don't blame their pilots for demanding their fare share.
Wait. Why then expanding buying ITa for example? Do they want another bailout with taxpayers money? Again?
I'm done flying them.
This is EXACTLY my experience with Lufthansa! I've only flown them in the past due to geographic necessity. With Lufthansa, I've experienced more delays and consistent avoidance of compensation when they mess up. And outright hostility from their "customer service" professionals.
What's crazy is how consistent these horror stories are. Even Ben got screwed when he paid $2000 per person for their new first class and got downgraded with terrible customer service. The comments on travel blogs are brutal - people calling them "worst customer service in airline history."
I've read about 30-hour delays, luggage lost for a year, reps hanging up on customers (this has happened to me multiple times), and automated systems giving contradictory explanations. They charge premium prices but deliver worse service than budget airlines.
AVOID LUFTHANSA. Life's too short to deal with an airline that clearly hates its passengers.
Christian …. hook, line and sinker sunshine …. 🙂
There is always a woke fish who has a sense of humour failure and rises to the bait, thank you for the grin.
Yes John, you and your little helper continue to provide entertainment for the troops on this fine autumn morning. Proving once again that your intellect is as none existent as your vocabulary is limited.
However, Ben will be happy to receive more clicks for his website tally, my brain cells enjoy a little exercise while your cell just withers and dies on your boneless spinal cord …. Jolly good sport, now trot on donkey …. 🙂
No loss to the world if there is no prospect of Lufthansa Airlines going forward.
If you want to see a better example of German efficiency, go to the German parts of Switzerland…
It is impressive how quickly Lufthansa has moved into this down spiral. The numbers of the core airline are disastrous. The company has zero reserves and at times even cash flow problems. At the same time your article demonstrates well the product and quality issues. The Management on top of that has used up all its credit with employees. There is no trust. The Supervisory Board needs to act and bring in a new CEO that can build trust and clean up the mess quickly.
As I mentioned some time ago, an FA and I had a long discussion about LH. She mentioned that next year is LH 100lh anny. A big celebration is planned. And she opined that is very possible that Spohr will announce his retirement.
I love flying on LH because of their FA's. I have always been treated very well. And, where possible my long haul is on their 748's, biz or FC, where possible. Before retiring and moving to Europe, I lived in Seattle for 40 years. I always loved flying the 747. It was designed and built by engineers; and the company was run by a CEO who was an engineer.
Boeing and Lufthansa both went off the rails when they allowed bean counters to take over.
LH's defining moment will be when they name his replacement. If it's like for like, expect the worst.
OK. So you are a letch. So, how do you treat your wife?
They are there for your safety and service. What is it you need?
Regarding full flts. From MLA-FRA and MLA-Muc, the flts are always full. There are a gazillion cheap airlines flying to Malta. So why are people choosing LH? Phenominal selection of connecting flts and good on-board service.
Yes, of course Julia, I am only too pleased to offer my humble opinion as a result of my passenger experiences.
As a once very regular F or J international passenger, with experience of six out of the Top 10 airlines, all of those carriers employ mainly youngish, attractive looking FA’s. QR, SQ, AF, EK, CX, TK, are guilty or not (depending upon one’s point of view) of staffing their F&J cabins with some very active young FA’s. Even my lady wife enjoys the attention of the most pleasant male crew members. Rightly or wrongly, by contrast, those airlines which employ to older FA’s are not so highly rated.
Again by contrast those airlines (mainly European and U.S.) who have strong age discrimination/labour laws, etc, tend to employ the more (age) senior cabin crew on domestic flights. This stands to reason due to family commitments, etc.
Now, I am not saying that it is right and proper for the world’s top airlines to employ attractive FA’s. However, the observation is quite obvious to those who regularly fly with the higher placed airlines.
I do hope that this explanation of my own experiences and observations is helpful?
AlanZ, “OK. So you are” …. presumptive fool who judges others by their own low standards. Only a bear of very little brain would think such a thing of someone who they do not know. One is best advised to read my words, engage your brain cell then if appropriate attack your keyboard.
As to how I treat my good lady wife …. for over four decades she has enjoyed our travels together. Our personal life beyond that is our business and absolutely no of yours.
One acknowledges that FA’s “Are there for your safety and service”, however, as has been pointed out on various other article comments pages, doubts exist as to the physical capabilities of some older and less able FA’s. How confident are you that youth is less capable than age?
Finally, you ask …. “What is it you need? My answer to that is very simple AlanZ, the same as everyone else …. a safe and pleasant flight.
Life’s too short …. Although I do not have the LH experience which you possess, one can commiserate with you for your suffering. Likewise to all of those passengers who suffer at the hands of the U.S. carriers, you have my sympathy too.
Likewise leol, the situation is made much worse due to the German politicians being hand and glove in cahoots with the EU parliamentary numpties.
A simple question for Ben, after reading the comments below, has your opinion of LH changed in any way?
I'd only add:
"Lufty: Yay! Me a genuine 7* airline now. Here's a bonus for my CEO and executives for their incredible accomplishments!!!"
Some of this has got to be related to weak decision making in the C suites. You don't suddenly become unprofitable. Scooping up all these subsidiary carriers cannot be free, perhaps it diverts managements attention too often. The unions are going to get their pensions, loss making or not. Make a deal and move on.
Lufthansa was a pleasure to fly, for me that was before 2005.
Their management could not handle international travellers complaints and treated customers with arrogance and school teacher strictness and that was 2010.
Lufthansa is/was very over confident. They bought over airlines, Swiss being a huge mistake. Don't know why all that money in Switzerland could not buy Swiss, and let the Germans buy it.
Lufthansa is an airline that will not be missed. To get out of this mess, they need international management, not German. Its the idea, the thinking to change the airline.
Is the CEO's wife going to face justice for the babysitter she killed in Sardegna? She tried to flee the scene
I hope one day we can return to writing using real words….
the letter soup crap above takes more energy to read that the longer version.
It sounds like you haven’t spent much time in the “German parts of Switzerland”… for one, they would never let you get away with referring to them as german anything. 😉
it’s a whole different beast there. sure they speak swiss-german, but let’s not confuse that to mean they have the same culture (they don’t) or same government (they don’t).
They are Swiss.
Im not from germany but Ive lived there, and have a host family for 30+ years now whom owns a manufacturing company. So, I feel I can try and make a somewhat informed guess?
Over the years I have noticed that the large heavyweight German companies, (think transport, auto, etc) have a kind of special place in their culture that we americans don’t really experience. I see they have a lot of social and economic responsibility to keep providing reliable income to their economy, and I think the government feels quite dependent on these companies doing so. At the same time, german culture wants strong labor rights, and rules. they have rules for rules and then a rule book for the rules (according to my german “family”).
I say all of the above because that is the reality the company must deal with, and I wonder how much a new CEO could really change at Lufthansa??
- your stuck with your contracts (labor)
- your stuck with your obligations to keep all of your various inefficient logistics and outposts and such across the country due to political considerations
- You’re stuck with a culture that doesn’t want quick change.
someone mentioned in their comment why on earth does LH have so many different airplane types instead of all 777.
Well, when you add in a little govt pressure to support Airbus, and then some strong labor rules to ensure mechanics for every other type of plane has a job in germany (just guessing on this one to make the point) … then maybe you get stuck in the position of not being able to make such an efficient change without disrupting many local economies and pissing of the govt, and citizens…
Germans value social and economic stability with strong labor and environment weaved in. It’s not exactly a mandate to innovate or disrupt..
So, Ben (or any one from Germany?!!), do you think a new CEO could actually change that much at Lufthansa???
Did you ever fly througj CDG? AF lounge is ao bad that bussiness lounges in FRA or MUC feel lile first class