You guys know I love writing about new “airlines” (I put that word in quotes because is it really an airline if they never fly?), and I just realized I’ve never written about Avatar Airlines, which is probably the most promising new airline in the US since Baltia.
The concept has been around since 1992, and just yesterday Avatar Airlines filed with the US Department of Transportation for a Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity. Their application with the DOT is over 400 pages, and frankly the whole thing is a goldmine, so if you have time, read as much of it as you can.
In this post:
What Is Avatar Airlines?
Essentially Avatar Airlines wants to launch domestic flights exclusively with 747s. Their argument is that airlines have been switching to smaller and smaller planes on domestic routes, but the per passenger costs are much lower on bigger planes, and that’s why they’ve chosen the 747.
While it’s no doubt true that per passenger costs can be lower on bigger planes, that doesn’t account for the fact that it’s hard to maintain the same yields with bigger planes.
Avatar Airlines Fleet Plans
Avatar Airlines hopes to raise money to buy 14 Boeing 747-400s. Then within three to five years they hope to have an IPO, allowing them to then purchase 30 Boeing 747-8s, which are more fuel efficient and larger.
So essentially Avatar Airlines hopes to be an ultra low cost carrier, with 747-400s that have 580+ seats. That will include 539 economy seats on the lower deck, and 42 “Office Class” seats on the upper deck.
Avatar Airlines Routes
The airline will initially operate between Los Angeles and Las Vegas, Las Vegas and New York, and New York and Miami. But they plan to grow a lot, with a total of 28 planes by the fourth year.
Avatar Airlines Fare Structure
To do the math on how they’ll be profitable, Avatar Airlines is assuming an average load factor of 84%, with an average ticket price of $64 (plus taxes and fees).
Here’s how they’ve worked out the math that they’ll be profitable:
Avatar Airlines Will Be A Flying Billboard
The airline also plans on putting lots of advertising on their planes:
The concepts Avatar will utilize have been historically tried and tested. Does anyone doubt whether advertising on the back of a bus, inside a subway or on a highway billboard works? A nearly trillion-dollar advertising industry worldwide readily supplies the answer. Avatar will capture some of that revenue by selling ad space to help ensure that its ticket prices remain ultralow, even if Avatar’s expenses rise. Tempered only by FCC safety regulations and requirements, nothing will be sacred. Anything that you see or touch will be available for purchase. Management even envisions patrons using the restroom and being “greeted” by a named brand bathroom tissue company when they look inside the lid of the lavatory bowl. The outside of the aircraft may be adorned by e.g., Pepsi, Google or any other named brand on a massive aircraft “wrap.” Tray tables and overhead bins will be virtual billboards in the sky. Free Wi-Fi subsidized by Avatar’s “Avatizing” partners in exchange for landing page ads will provide an added free perk for Avatar’s passengers.
Avatar Airlines Frequent Flyer Program
Avatar plans on having the “Fly Free Club,” which will require a one-time registration fee of $49, plus a $249 annual membership fee. With this you’ll be able to book any Avatar flight within 72 hours of departure subject to availability, and you’ll just have to pay taxes and fees.
Think of it as an Avatar standby pass.
Bottom Line
Here we’re seeing Avatar Airlines actually file something with the DOT, though don’t get too excited, as a Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity isn’t exactly one step from launching operations.
This concept has been in the works since 1992, and at the time it was known as Family Airlines, before being rebranded as Avatar Airlines in 2010. Even over the last 25+ years, the business model has more or less stayed the same.
So yeah, I mean the fact that they put together a 400+ page document at least shows some effort…
How did legendary Dan Eikleberry get caught up with this demented wet dream of an airline? From Your old hangar tenant at E45 !
Investors buy the planes then the company goes bankrupt and the major airline companies get a bunch of 747s at a massive discount. Oh and a bunch of people will get ultra low flights. Or they'll do so well and keep growing and eventually put every other airline out of business. Idk you either lose everything or get rich, I guess that's what investing and taking risks is all about.
How can they make money when the revenue is $31,407 and the cost to fly a 747 is over $24,000 per hour?
They could also go for something more realistic like used RR-powered 767-300WL’s with a bare-bones 8-abreast cabin in the far back for the cheapest fares
Qantas has a few they’re trying to give away (UPS/FX don’t want them because they’re not GE powered)
If they did that, drop stupid routes like LAX-LAS, and poured a whole lot of water on that giveaway frequent flier program, I’d invest!!!!
Avatar just put in a LOI for 30 747-8s
Hello, I have traveled on Peoples Express as well as Tower Airlines to Bombay from NYC-JFK. I enjoyed those flights.
I wish all the success.
Here is a suggestion regarding Capital.
You could directly go to people requesting investments with a minimum amount like $5000.0 but you must provide some backing from the Govt. that it is a legal investment. THIS IS NOT IPO. Instead of getting huge money from a very...
Hello, I have traveled on Peoples Express as well as Tower Airlines to Bombay from NYC-JFK. I enjoyed those flights.
I wish all the success.
Here is a suggestion regarding Capital.
You could directly go to people requesting investments with a minimum amount like $5000.0 but you must provide some backing from the Govt. that it is a legal investment. THIS IS NOT IPO. Instead of getting huge money from a very few Billionaires, raise the capital from ordinary people. As an additional bonus, you get a dedicated customer group, who also invested in the airlines.
Frequent Flyer miles is of no value if people do not have to spend too much money. Get rid of it.
Wish you good luck, All the best.
This has been ongoing for 25+ years, starting out as Family Airlines. They have no airplanes, no active flight crew, no maintenance facilities, no gates & no landing slots. Let's not forget the FAR 121 certificate, which can take years to obtain. Other than all of that it's a great airline.
When an EVP posts that it's not a scam, it's probably a scam. Don't forget that Barry Michaels ran this scam as Family Airlines...
This has been ongoing for 25+ years, starting out as Family Airlines. They have no airplanes, no active flight crew, no maintenance facilities, no gates & no landing slots. Let's not forget the FAR 121 certificate, which can take years to obtain. Other than all of that it's a great airline.
When an EVP posts that it's not a scam, it's probably a scam. Don't forget that Barry Michaels ran this scam as Family Airlines back in the early 1990s & was arrested & convicted of securities fraud. He served 3 years in prison.
Hi,
I was one of the publishers of the Tower Air In-flight magazine. So I do remember it well. I got a short notice from CEO Morris telling our group that Tower was ending its short flying carrier.
I went on to then produce inserts in many major airlines with an exclusive for on Broadway and off Broadway shows. We were an overnite success.
today I'm a media strategist. I relocated from NY to Florida 14 years ago in 2005.
I agree with Nicola, it is good to get answers to the ideas/problems raised by a person on the coalface, refreshing
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Flying into Sanford rather than MCO would be a 100% waste of money.
Your target audience is budget travelers, and flying into Orlando is definitely a leisure market. The problem is that the Disney Magical Express only goes between WDW and MCO, not SFB. It's more budget-friendly for families to fly Southwest or Spirit into MCO and get free transport than it is to fly you (or Alliegant) into SFB and pay...
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Flying into Sanford rather than MCO would be a 100% waste of money.
Your target audience is budget travelers, and flying into Orlando is definitely a leisure market. The problem is that the Disney Magical Express only goes between WDW and MCO, not SFB. It's more budget-friendly for families to fly Southwest or Spirit into MCO and get free transport than it is to fly you (or Alliegant) into SFB and pay for an Uber or rent a car.
Unless the money that SFB is offering you covers free pax transport to WDW, you should reconsider.
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
I think it's rare to see an airline representative answer questions in blogs. Irrespective of how people feel on this initiative, they should feel happy to interact directly with the airline and not otherwise. I love to be able to interact directly with an airline and not with some customer service that has ready made answers to give, many time even incomplete and unsatisfactory answers. I think it's cool and suggest to...
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
I think it's rare to see an airline representative answer questions in blogs. Irrespective of how people feel on this initiative, they should feel happy to interact directly with the airline and not otherwise. I love to be able to interact directly with an airline and not with some customer service that has ready made answers to give, many time even incomplete and unsatisfactory answers. I think it's cool and suggest to keep it up with this attitude which I believe it is missing within the airline industry.
Keith sorry you feel that way. I am only trying to engage those want to participate in a constructive dialogue, by showing them Avatar's side of the equation. Although it's good to preach to the choir, I much prefer robust dialogue, reading and responding to those that have differing opinions. I find that constructive. Even politicians go to local town halls. There is a reason for it. I value the opinions on this "travel blog's...
Keith sorry you feel that way. I am only trying to engage those want to participate in a constructive dialogue, by showing them Avatar's side of the equation. Although it's good to preach to the choir, I much prefer robust dialogue, reading and responding to those that have differing opinions. I find that constructive. Even politicians go to local town halls. There is a reason for it. I value the opinions on this "travel blog's comments section" - well, most of them.
Keith Rogers says:
November 21, 2019 at 9:31 pm
Does anyone else find it odd an executive from this so called “airline” is on a travel blog’s comment section debating with its readers?
When someone like Elon Musk does it I totally understand. This guy here is a nobody and is coming off in a very passive aggressive tone. Definitely would turn me off as an investor. AVOID!
Adrian says:
November 21, 2019 at 2:28 pm
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Hi Adrian -- thanks for your interest and questions - forgive the ALL CAPS below but that's how I'll distinguish my answer from the question.
I noticed Seattle (to LAX/SFO/NY/MIA) is missing. I get that this is an initial rollout plan, but that’s a high volume market with high margins, particular up and down the west coast.
I'M NOT THE...
Adrian says:
November 21, 2019 at 2:28 pm
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Hi Adrian -- thanks for your interest and questions - forgive the ALL CAPS below but that's how I'll distinguish my answer from the question.
I noticed Seattle (to LAX/SFO/NY/MIA) is missing. I get that this is an initial rollout plan, but that’s a high volume market with high margins, particular up and down the west coast.
I'M NOT THE ROUTE EXPERT BUT I HAVE CONFERRED WITH MY COLLEAGUES AND THERE IS AN AGREEMENT THAT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ABOUT THIS BEING A DENSELY POPULATED ROUTE. AGAIN YOU ARE ALSO CORRECT WE'VE GOT AN INITIAL ROLLOUT THAT IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND PERHAPS AS WE GET CLOSER THESE CITY PAIRS WILL MAKE THE CUT. THANK YOU FOR THE SUGGESTION!
Also, nail a low cost model between SEA and Dublin or London and you’ll shake up that market like no other. (Or Edinburgh or Glasgow with a EU domestic partner for connections.)
MAYBE EVENTUALLY - FOR NOW WE'RE KEEPING IT SIMPLE IN THE STATES, OR RELATIVELY CLOSE TO IT.
I’m also sure Hawaii’s state government would give some assistance (even just advertising) to increase the volume of tourists from the west coast. SEE BELOW
Speaking of which, as others have noted, there’s no mention of any state/fed assistance. You can’t ignore that possibility, but have you ruled it out? If so, why?
WE HAVE NOT RULED THIS OUT AT ALL. WE ARE EXPLORING AS MANY OPTIONS AS OUR TIME RESOURCES PERMIT. WE'VE MET LOCALLY IN SOUTH FLORIDA WITH ENTERPRISE FLORIDA , THE BEACON COUNSEL (NOT RECENTLY BUT WE HAVE IN THE PAST AND NEED TO REVISIT) WE'VE ALSO MET WITH SOME LOCAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, WEST PALM BEACH MAYOR KEITH JAMES, SANFORD AIRPORT, WE ARE EXPLORING EB5 OPTIONS (FOREIGN INVESTORS) SO WE ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT RULING THAT OUT. AS YOU PROBABLY ALREADY KNOW, 1ST MONEY IN IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TO RAISE. THE EB5 IS TIED TO CREATION OF JOBS WHICH OBVIOUSLY WE WOULD CREATE - THERE WERE SOME RECENT CHANGES (INCREASES) TO THE EB5 THRESHOLD AND WE'RE EVALUATING HOW THAT MIGHT STILL BE A CHANNEL FOR US TO PURSUE. IF YOU'VE GO ANY SUGGESTIONS ABOUT WHERE TO LOOK, I AM ALL EARS, VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. TIME RESOURCES FOR US ARE UNFORTUNATELY BALANCED WITH COMPETITING WORK OLBIGATIONS. MOST OF US HAVE DAY GIGS TO KEEP ROOFS OVER OUR HEADS WHILE WE WORK AVATAR AS A LABOR OF LOVE. PERSONALLY I WOULD LOVE TO STOP LITIGATING AND DEVOTE ALL MY TIME TO BRINGING AVATAR TO FRUITION.
Are there any alternative nearby airports that would love the foot traffic that are willing to give discounts to their fees? YOU'RE VERY MUCH TUNED IN. I BELIEVE WE COULD STRIKE THOSE INCENTIVES WITH SANFORD AIRPORT WHICH IS NOT QUITE AS BUSY BUT IN RELATIVELY CLOSE PROXIMITY TO ORLANDO AIRPORT. THEY WOULD LOVE TO HOST US. THEY'VE ACTUALLY GOT THE FACILITIES TO BRING IN 747s. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER INCENTIVES TO BE HAD, BUT QUITE HONESTLY, RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT THE INCENTIVES OR THE TAX DEDUCTIONS WE NEED -- IT IS THE SEED CAPITAL, SO TO SPEAK.
Once you’re established, do you plan on moving onto more efficient, albeit smaller aircraft like the 777/787/330/350 as they fall off mainline rosters? RIGHT NOW THE PLAN IS TO GO LARGER, FOR THE REASONS WE DISCUSS IN OUR FILING.
I ask because even the -8 models with 4 engines are still fuel hungry.
YOU ARE AGAIN CORRECT - IT IS STILL VERY MUCH FUEL HUNGRY BUT ALSO MUCH MORE FUEL EFFICIENT THAN THE 747-400. INTERESTINGLY, THERE WERE SEVERAL UPGRADES TO THE 747-400 ENGINES THROUGH THE YEARS AND OUR MODEL IS BASED ON ONE OF THE OLDER, LESS FUEL EFFICIENT TYPES - THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING. WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING IN THE MODEL TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF BEING CONSERVATIVE.
I don’t agree with others on the A380, as there are still too many airports that while could land it, can’t park it at a terminal. Getting used 747s cheap is a good initial idea. WE'VE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY DISCUSSIONS WITH AIRBUS --- THE A380 IS REALLY THE ONLY OTHER AIRCRAFT THAT COULD IN THEORY WORK FOR THE OPERATION WE ARE PLANNING. BUT THERE ARE PRACTICAL BARRIERS SUCH AS THE ONE YOU DESCRIBED. ALSO THE INVENTORY. IT'S A MUCH NEWER AIRCRAFT THAN THE 400 AND THERE ARE JUST LESS OF THEM. IT'S AN EASIER TRANSITION TO A -8 FROM A 400 THAN FROM A 380 AS I UNDERSTAND IT.
And before I go (sorry..) have you filled out your executive team yet? I’m not looking for a job(!) but it as I’m sure you’re aware, it speaks to your credibility to execute if you have already.
WE'VE GOT ABOUT 21 TO THE TEAM RIGHT NOW - ABOUT 4 OUT OF 5 OF OUR FAA MANDATORY "WISEMEN" SO TO SPEAK; IT IS A FLUID ENVIRONMENT, STILL VERY MUCH POPULATING AS PEOPLE GRAVITATE TO US ONCE THEY LEARN OF US - AGAIN, NOT TO HARP ON THE MONEY FACTOR --- WE'VE GOT A LOT OF TALENT --- EVEN MY CHIEF PILOT HAS A PAYING GIG IN THE FAR EAST AS A VETERAN 747 CAPTAIN WHO WOULD LOVE TO COME HOME AND FLY DOMESTICALLY WHEN WE ARE IN A POSITION TO PAY HIM. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF FANS (WATCHERS) THAT ARE WAITING FOR FUNDING AND WAITING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY WHEN WE WILL BE ABLE TO PAY THEM SALARIES. THERE'S A LOT OF ISSUES THAT MONEY SOLVES. YOU CAN AFFORD THE VERY BEST, EVEN THE TALENT TO EASE THE PAIN OF THE 5 PHASES OF FAA CERTIFICATION. A GOOD CONNECTION TO JOHN TRAVOLTA OR OPRAH CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HURT EITHER LOL.
Lastly, let me be the first to say we appreciate you taking the time commenting here and replying to our questions!
THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS. IV'E ALREADY MADE A NOTE ABOUT THE ROUTE SUGGESTION.
Does anyone else find it odd an executive from this so called “airline” is on a travel blog’s comment section debating with its readers?
When someone like Elon Musk does it I totally understand. This guy here is a nobody and is coming off in a very passive aggressive tone. Definitely would turn me off as an investor. AVOID!
@Marcus - I loved flying 747s in Japan for commuter flights from Tokyo to Osaka too. Look forward to flying with Avatar. Good luck.
In the good old days the Tokyo Osaka flights were on a 747. Presumably acquisition cost is zero?
I used to fly 747s and DC10s between LAX and ORD back in the 80's. Heck I even flew a United DC10 from DEN (Stapleton) to ORD once.
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
I noticed Seattle (to LAX/SFO/NY/MIA) is missing. I get that this is an initial rollout plan, but that's a high volume market with high margins, particular up and down the west coast.
Also, nail a low cost model between SEA and Dublin or London and you'll shake up that market like no other. (Or Edinburgh or Glasgow with a EU domestic partner for connections.)
I'm also sure Hawaii's state...
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
I noticed Seattle (to LAX/SFO/NY/MIA) is missing. I get that this is an initial rollout plan, but that's a high volume market with high margins, particular up and down the west coast.
Also, nail a low cost model between SEA and Dublin or London and you'll shake up that market like no other. (Or Edinburgh or Glasgow with a EU domestic partner for connections.)
I'm also sure Hawaii's state government would give some assistance (even just advertising) to increase the volume of tourists from the west coast.
Speaking of which, as others have noted, there's no mention of any state/fed assistance. You can't ignore that possibility, but have you ruled it out? If so, why?
Are there any alternative nearby airports that would love the foot traffic that are willing to give discounts to their fees?
Once you're established, do you plan on moving onto more efficient, albeit smaller aircraft like the 777/787/330/350 as they fall off mainline rosters? I ask because even the -8 models with 4 engines are still fuel hungry. I don't agree with others on the A380, as there are still too many airports that while could land it, can't park it at a terminal. Getting used 747s cheap is a good initial idea.
And before I go (sorry..) have you filled out your executive team yet? I'm not looking for a job(!) but it as I'm sure you're aware, it speaks to your credibility to execute if you have already.
Lastly, let me be the first to say we appreciate you taking the time commenting here and replying to our questions!
Only Ava Max fans are allowed to fly Avatar Airlines. Lucky you left out the most important detail.
@ Erik "It’s written in the language of a ninth-grade book report." I'll take that as a compliment. I'm practicing law for over 27 years and I find that the difference between seasoned lawyers and new lawyers is generally that new lawyers love to throw around "legalese" big words, run-on sentences (go read some congressional statutes --- they aren't "new" by any means, but you'll get an idea of the kind of writing I'm talking...
@ Erik "It’s written in the language of a ninth-grade book report." I'll take that as a compliment. I'm practicing law for over 27 years and I find that the difference between seasoned lawyers and new lawyers is generally that new lawyers love to throw around "legalese" big words, run-on sentences (go read some congressional statutes --- they aren't "new" by any means, but you'll get an idea of the kind of writing I'm talking about) with the end result being that a majority of the folks reading it simply do not understand what they are reading or they stop reading it entirely.
I would much rather speak in a tone and format that a majority of people understand. After all, if people don't understand what you are writing, what is the point of writing? I can tell you all of the "9th grade book report" content you are referring to, took a lot of editing, to make it concise, to make it simple, to make it understandable. I don't know your credentials @Erik. I only know my own. I've written briefs for city courts, state courts, federal courts and even SCOTUS so I have a healthy respect for "simplicity." If that offends you or you believe that this is a reason to disparage, we'll have to just agree to disagree on the underlying philosophy. I wish you well.
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Looking for investment money eh?
How much is your valuation?
CEO reputation in doubt?
You want to be CEO?
You know IMHO even if you are legit, you are still better off trying scam people and escape to Mexico with the money rather than trying to start a real airline.
I don't think the 747 will be a good fit. If they really want to have widebodies, they should go for the A350 or 787. However, widebodies can be expensive to operate, especially an airline that has a fleet with only widebodies, so I think the best fit would be the A321 for their business model.
The aircraft turn around is longer than the LAX-LAS flight. The aircraft will cycle out way prior to hitting any hard hour limits. UAL learned this the hard way.
I think someone above alluded to this as well, but this really does have the look and feel of a high school team business project (that got a B+). It all looks like it was created on MS Word in Times New Roman with cut and paste imagery from google. It's written in the language of a ninth grade book report. All of the marketing and operational concepts are what I expect from a group...
I think someone above alluded to this as well, but this really does have the look and feel of a high school team business project (that got a B+). It all looks like it was created on MS Word in Times New Roman with cut and paste imagery from google. It's written in the language of a ninth grade book report. All of the marketing and operational concepts are what I expect from a group of kids who have been told to study the airline industry for a few days and come up with a unique and interesting concept. It's all stuff that seems like a great idea on a very topical level, but wouldn't work for a variety of reasons that someone with six months in the industry could immediately rattle off. Kind of like the general public watching an operating room scene on a TV hospital show. It all seems plausible to a lay person, but an actual surgeon would rip it apart in five minutes.
Ben, did you ever fly Oasis Hong Kong? They were a low-cost long haul airline operating with 4 747 aircraft. I flew them from Gatwick to Hong Kong.
https://www.nomadicnotes.com/oasis-hong-kong-london-to-hong-kong/
I also occasionally fly Thai Airways domestically, and I have been on a 747 on their CNX-BKK and BKK-HKT routes. Both flights were half empty. No wonder they are losing so much money.
Sounds like something my son would present at a school project lol
"Does anyone doubt whether advertising on the back of a bus, inside a subway or on a highway billboard works?"
Yes.
Oh, OK. I don't doubt you can find people willing to buy the advertising space. I merely doubt that it "works" in the sense of the advertised product seeing any rise in sales greater than the random chance line of 50% of impressions.
Another People Express of the 1980's That Flew Exclusively 747's from Coast to Coast and in Between Too Who were Absorbed by Frank Lorenzo (Continental Airlines) and the 747's were Then All Scraped and the Employees Fired and Now Just an Asterisk in History of the Airline Industry
Let's say you work at this company -- like, your day job is going into an office in a small suburban office park and walking up to your desk and making phone calls and doing deals. You know that the mission of the company is kinda high risk and you know it might just be a money pit but (a) lots of companies are like that and (b) the paychecks clear. Who knows, maybe things...
Let's say you work at this company -- like, your day job is going into an office in a small suburban office park and walking up to your desk and making phone calls and doing deals. You know that the mission of the company is kinda high risk and you know it might just be a money pit but (a) lots of companies are like that and (b) the paychecks clear. Who knows, maybe things will work! That would be awesome!
Here is my question:
How often do people who work for this company actually get to fly on a 747? Are there quarterly staff bonding events where you charter a flight and deck it out in the latest planned livery and fly for an hour somewhere and hang out together? That would be amazing and would be more time than most American office workers get to spend annually in a 747 and seems like a great perk.
So, how many hours per year does a current Avatar employee get to spend on the upper deck of a 747 in flight?
More 747s at Boston in a few years? I’m doubtful but excited!
Love the idea. 747's are brilliant. If you match the quality of Southwest i would be happy.
This story reminded me of the mid 80s when I was just out of college and living in Minneapolis, but working in Chicago. I flew weekly on a Northwest Airlines 747 on that route - loved it. I think the flight was going on to Tokyo. I still look for 747s on my international travel, but sadly they are few and far between now. I would probably give this a try, they definitely have the...
This story reminded me of the mid 80s when I was just out of college and living in Minneapolis, but working in Chicago. I flew weekly on a Northwest Airlines 747 on that route - loved it. I think the flight was going on to Tokyo. I still look for 747s on my international travel, but sadly they are few and far between now. I would probably give this a try, they definitely have the "shrinking aircraft" thing right, I always check first the equipment on my flights every time I book.
@michael E Zapin. You make some good points and I admire your spirit for attempting to do something better by thinking differently. The idea of using planes that you can acquire at low cost seems Intriguing to me.
I’ll tell you, not to promote Lucky but you may want to bring him onto your advisory team.
I like the idea.
1. More competition is always better.
2. I am speaking for my fellow Millennials. I am frequent flyer but a lot of my colleagues are not. They fly 3 to 4 times RT domestic a year as a young professionals in upper middle class. They do not care the comfie of the fly because it's 6 hours max and they book the lowest fare available. They have no idea what...
I like the idea.
1. More competition is always better.
2. I am speaking for my fellow Millennials. I am frequent flyer but a lot of my colleagues are not. They fly 3 to 4 times RT domestic a year as a young professionals in upper middle class. They do not care the comfie of the fly because it's 6 hours max and they book the lowest fare available. They have no idea what FF programs are and even they know I am an "expert" (well, better than average) in term of fly, they only ask my opinion on where to explore on different part of the world, not the flight. They are the most common pax we have in aviation industry. Those ppl don't look at F or C even it's only few hundreds more expensive.
Ex: my friend just bought a flight to HKG for next year for under $700, in the meanwhile, I told him you can fly Xiamen/Sichuan/Hainan for sub 2k in Biz.
Even according to that UK study to cut FF, 20% of flyers counts 80% of mile. The Avatar is targeting the 80% flyers for the rest of cake, and it's still a huge market.
Also, I believe small business is in the same shoes, they just need to get the job done in cheapest way. The route plan works for both leisure travel and small business.
3. With a rapid changing world, who will care the airline miles. Few years ago, I fly delta until Skypesos coming. Then I fly United until the new system is not friendly for cross pond flyer. Next year I will fly Singapore. Credit Card Currency is the king!
As a Diamond Member on Global Ghana Airlines, I am anxiously looking forward to acquiring the same status on Avatar Airlines.
Years back in the 1970's - 747 was the normal transcon aircraft. It was just standard to have a 747 or DC10 on long flights in the US. The 737's could not fly the routes. There are many more people flying than 45 years ago - but all we have is mostly narrow body for transcons.
The few times a US airline flies a 787 for example like UA from IAD-SFO, or AA from DFW-LAX,...
Years back in the 1970's - 747 was the normal transcon aircraft. It was just standard to have a 747 or DC10 on long flights in the US. The 737's could not fly the routes. There are many more people flying than 45 years ago - but all we have is mostly narrow body for transcons.
The few times a US airline flies a 787 for example like UA from IAD-SFO, or AA from DFW-LAX, they are always completely full.
Airlines should be buying more larger jets for hub to hub flights (and reduce the number of flights). Some fly two flights back to back or another flight 30 minutes later.
Airlines that fly jumbo jets on domestic routes should be reduced fees to encourage reduced number of flights.
Doesn't Qatar fly an A380 for a 35 mile flight? QF flies between SYD and MEL with many A330s, and at peak times they have a flight every 10-15 minutes.
Point is some high density routes need bigger planes.
747-4 and the -8 best aircraft around at least the 47 can taxi to ALL gates where as the 380 cannot in addition to add they do not have to sit on the taxiway for 8 hrs or less
Domestic flights were? Lost interest before I got into the body of the post
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN
Keep on going!
Yes, this is probably a long shot, but sometimes longshots pay off.
Love some of the ideas and I am sure you can tweak others.
Their business plan: cram the capacity of the A380 inside of a 747-400, with the comfort and service of RyanAir.
Hard pass.
I applaud the vision. But, there's a reason the 747 is going the way of the dodo. Your entire business plan is predicated on very optimistic yields. How far below 84% can you go where it becomes unprofitable? You know, of course, the other airlines will match whatever price you throw out there.
Good luck. I love the 747. Maybe I'll fly after a solid year of good operational performance.
I wonder if there are any 747-400D models parked out in the desert?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-400#747-400D
@MICHAEL E ZAPIN, EVP and CLO - Lol, you obviously didn't even read my comment, I made no mention of award miles.
Best of luck to you, and more importantly, your investors. This is an insane business proposition.
Mr. Zapin, I think I can speak for the aviation community that we are excited when new airlines are born but as you stated yourself, it's a tough and competitive market. People are indeed up to core with shrinking seats and fees but unfortunately for many travelers, the lowest price gets the booking.
Now it appears that some people (like myself) are starting to say enough is enough and are opting for airlines with...
Mr. Zapin, I think I can speak for the aviation community that we are excited when new airlines are born but as you stated yourself, it's a tough and competitive market. People are indeed up to core with shrinking seats and fees but unfortunately for many travelers, the lowest price gets the booking.
Now it appears that some people (like myself) are starting to say enough is enough and are opting for airlines with better choices even if the price is higher, to a certain amount.
There are just so many factors that come to play when launching an airline and at least I wish you all the best and will certainly try it out if it gets off the ground.
Best of luck!
I hope they plan on having a huge maintenance budget. Flying wide-bodies multiple times a day is going to greatly reduce their lifespan without constant upkeep.
@Estaban, thanks for your comment. We use an 84% load factor in our model to be conservative. With no history of flight, how would it look in our model if we used a 100% load factor? At 84% and minimal revenue showing for multiple profit centers (again, erring on the side of being conservative) we are still PROFITABLE. I actually believe we will achieve 100% load factors. We will sell cargo space and advertising. As...
@Estaban, thanks for your comment. We use an 84% load factor in our model to be conservative. With no history of flight, how would it look in our model if we used a 100% load factor? At 84% and minimal revenue showing for multiple profit centers (again, erring on the side of being conservative) we are still PROFITABLE. I actually believe we will achieve 100% load factors. We will sell cargo space and advertising. As to wny "other airlines don't do it," because there is more than one way to skin a cat. They are making money doing things the way they are doing it right now. Why should they change? "Why doesn't everyone else do it" is a worthy question. But the business plan is sound, and most pioneers face a situation of doing something that everyone else is not doing. You can be a trail blazer or a trail gazer. All the best to you.
@GuruJanitor - I currently do that from Orlando on a weekly basis. My backside does not like my habits...
No connections.
Low yield/ vacation cities
No alliance
Old planes
Now, if the idea is SO good and foolproof, why don’t the other airlines do the same? Mmmmm...
...
And a VERY optimistic 84% occupation.
Deal!
Why don't they launch a route JFK-Teterboro-LaGuardia-Newark and back with an A380? Makes just as much sense.
The great humpback whale is the only plane for me. Whenever I see it, which is almost never today, it reminds me of all the places I went to when it was the dominant long-distance aircraft. All those other johnny-come-lately planes look the same, a bit larger or smaller.
Avatar Airlines... I'm looking forward to all the pilots and flight attendants being blue.
Hello. I can tell you it is not a scam. It is an ambitious plan to do things differently. If it was easy to become the next greatest ultra-low-cost airline, everyone would be doing it. And if it was easy, it certainly would have been done a long time ago, as one commentator pointed out that Avatar has been at it for quite some time.
The single biggest obstacle has been the capital raise...
Hello. I can tell you it is not a scam. It is an ambitious plan to do things differently. If it was easy to become the next greatest ultra-low-cost airline, everyone would be doing it. And if it was easy, it certainly would have been done a long time ago, as one commentator pointed out that Avatar has been at it for quite some time.
The single biggest obstacle has been the capital raise required to put boots on the ground and planes in the air, so to speak. We are planning to market the capital raise more intelligently now than in the past. "Working smarter," so to speak.
There are a lot of dedicated experienced professionals involved and putting their time and energy into the airline, because they know that the industry is crying out more now than ever before, to raise the bar for passenger expectations.
If you all are happy with the current status quo of shrinking aircraft, minimizing services that used to be free, only to charge passengers premiums for things such as leg room, baggage and even overhead bins, than there is no reason for you to root for Avatar's success.
However, if you, like us, believe that there are better ways to do ultra low cost travel, and are willing to look beyond the tunnel vision of the current crop of Avatar's closest competitors, we hope that you will be open-minded about Avatar's success and keep a watch on future developments.
For the record, the comment by GuruJanitor about "frequent flyer miles" is inapplicable. We don't do frequent flyer miles. My suggestion is to give a thorough reading of Avatar's business plan as presented in our DOT filing, before you draw conclusions about the plan. You will see that our plan is to do things dramatically different than what is being done today. I like to say that Avatar "may be counter-intuitive, but it is not counter-intelligent."
Personally, I would love to leave a legacy behind, knowing that in some way I contributed to a seismic shift in the way that people travel in the US. Flying instead of driving. Flying more frequently because it becomes more affordable, not less. Creation of jobs in the airline and in secondary industries such as hospitality.
The more you look at this in a positive light, the more opportunities you start to see. It may sound a bit hokey, but I'm a true believer that the great American spirit and most of its prosperity, was forged in growth and expansion, not by shrinkage.
Even in the stock market you can become prosperous by being a bull or a bear, but the choice is yours. We've made ours. Thanks for all the critical comments. Very much appreciated.
@nicola. It’s not fashionable. They can buy up old ones as they wouldn’t be able to afford ( leasing ) 777, a350 etc
It’s interesting to see the B747 turning fashionable again while most carriers are planning to shelve it. I’m not a crazy fan of the 747. Prefer the 380. But it will be interesting to see it in action again as a main actor.
You might be too young to remember People Express (an ultra low cost carrier. They were Ryan Air decades before Ryan Air). They flew 747s among other planes; look up their livery. A quick search suggests that at least some of their advertising was, "We're Flying The Widest Plane To The Highest Place: Introducing The Only 747 Service From New York To Denver." Ultimately they got bought by Continental (so technically they live on as United today).
Looking forward to a review of the inagural flight!
But will they be offering 747-SPs to charter for in-flight quinceañeras?
These people are still thinking late 1990s...
They should try the A380,
a. AF and EK will off-load many in coming years and should be way cheaper than new 748i.
b. free A380 buzz EK based their marketing : more PAX and no need to pay for commercials
c. and, oh, the whale has substantially more fuselage surface for corporate adverting.
- and a bigger tail fin too, much catchier and...
These people are still thinking late 1990s...
They should try the A380,
a. AF and EK will off-load many in coming years and should be way cheaper than new 748i.
b. free A380 buzz EK based their marketing : more PAX and no need to pay for commercials
c. and, oh, the whale has substantially more fuselage surface for corporate adverting.
- and a bigger tail fin too, much catchier and higher than the competition - timeless.
- larger wing undersurface should also be considered.
- perhaps even logos on their huge nacelles. All four of them
They have tried to raise funds on Indiegogo a couple of years ago that actually got them booted from the platform. Put this one in the Baltia Airlines file.
So it’s been in the works for 27 years and so far nothing. I guess they can buy all the 747-400s that are being retired by proper airlines If they even get off the ground following the success of Baltia , goldstar and global Ghana
They are building a new terminal at Burbank so could cut costs by operating a 747 from there lol
I say bring it on. More choices and more competition is always better!
At least founder Barry Michaels isn't seeking tax deductible contributions for Avatar Airlines like he did for his gun rights group... And need I add that he announced an independent run to become a Senator from Nevada?
The gift that keeps on giving. https://viewfromthewing.com/avatar-airlines-has-a-new-ceo-and-is-looking-to-source-14-boeing-747s-on-social-media/
So refreshing to hear of an airline interested in the 747-8i. ROFLCOPTER!!
Hell, if this were real, I'd buy a house in Miami and commute to NYC for work daily. Shorter commute time from the suburbs, AND an annual pass is cheaper than a monthly pass on the LIRR or NJT.
LOL even if this got off the ground (pun intended) their frequent flyer program would kill the whole operation. You break even after 2 round trips!
Are the people who propose these airlines just crazy/delusional or actually running some sort of scam?
LAX-LAS with a 747?!??!
This reminds me of Tower Air. They had a hangar/ terminal in a remote area of JFK. I flew their 747 JFK-MIA. I believe they also served LAS LAX SFO and TLV from JFK all with 747’s. They were a low cost carrier but went out of,business. I think this was in the 90’s. I’m sure someone else remembers a bit more about them.
You need to start making a series about these wacky airlines