I love listening to air traffic control audio, either just “live,” or recordings of interesting interactions. I live under the approach and departure path to MIA, so I constantly have ATC audio playing in the background.
Anyway, a video has just been uploaded of an interaction between an air traffic controller and a pilot over the skies of Las Vegas on June 20, 2020. This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions.
Even if you don’t have a good understanding of ATC terminology, the situation should be easy enough to make sense of. For a bit of background “Bravo airspace” or “Class B airspace” is the term for the airspace around the busiest airports in the country. You need special clearance to enter this airspace.
In this case, a plane with the registration code N1NR enters Bravo airspace without clearance to do so, and that’s where the situation starts:
ATC: “N1NR, I need you outside of the Bravo.”
Pilot: “Negative.”
ATC: “Negative what?”
Pilot: “I’m inside.”
ATC: “You were not given a clearance through the Bravo. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.”
Pilot: “I’ve been talking to you the whole time. That’s the whole point of talking to you.”
ATC: “You have to have a Bravo clearance. You have to request Bravo clearance.”
Pilot: “I requested Bravo clearance about 15 miles ago.”
ATC: “Nobody cleared you through the Bravo but me.”
Pilot: “Then clear me through.”
ATC: “No!”
Pilot: “Yes!”
At this point another pilot chimes in and says “you’re an a@@hole,” and the pilot responds “you’re being that, this is not appropriate language.” The video then goes back to the previous communication, which makes it clear that the pilot had never received clearance.
Then it continues:
Pilot: “I’ve asked for clearance multiple times.”
ATC: “N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo.”
ATC: “N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. I’ll give you the number when you’re ready to copy.”
Pilot: “I’m not ready to copy. I’m flying.”
The craziest part in all of this is that when the pilot later talks to Henderson Tower after landing, the controller says “I don’t know what happened but from what you say, sorry for the service.” I guess he was trying to be professional, but this is one of those cases where he was being too nice, given that the pilot was just about 100% in the wrong, while the controller was just about 100% in the right.
Here’s the full ATC audio, should you want to listen to it (when you listen to it you’ll appreciate just how angry this guy’s tone is):
Bottom line
I’ve never heard ATC audio where a pilot is so disobedient to instructions. He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because he’s “flying.”
Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license…
There was no reason for her not to comply, I definitely side with the pilot
Eventually this guy called the FSDO, someone filed a FOIA and got the actual phone call. He basically blamed his piloting on his puking daughter in the back seat, however, his flight plan did not indicate a passenger at all.
You can find the webpage with the links by google searching muckrock and N731NR easily.
Then, he discovered he became the worlds most hated pilot on social media, he immediately applied for LADD...
Eventually this guy called the FSDO, someone filed a FOIA and got the actual phone call. He basically blamed his piloting on his puking daughter in the back seat, however, his flight plan did not indicate a passenger at all.
You can find the webpage with the links by google searching muckrock and N731NR easily.
Then, he discovered he became the worlds most hated pilot on social media, he immediately applied for LADD so people could not track him, THANK YOU ADSB Exchange, we could still track him. about 6 months after that exchange N731NR nor his second aircraft N281MA were seen in the air much anymore, in fact, i haven't seen N731NR in the air EVER after that. But the Registrations are still active.
That arrogant narcissist should have his licence revoked. He's probably a misogynist too.
Henderson tower controller is one my favorite controllers in the country always progressional and friendly.
He violated Bravo airspace. When told to leave it, he refused and was belligerent. Time for this jerk to buy a ticket on Southwest and shut up.
That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. He did not damage anybody. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. You should be ashamed. Have you ever said...
That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. He did not damage anybody. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. You should be ashamed. Have you ever said anything nasty to somebody else on the ground or anywhere? I am sure you are a "perfect angel"
...and I think you are either that rude pilot or his wife.
I don’t see any defense to his behavior. This was a deliberate and willful violation of regulations. He probably should have his certificate revoked. The problem is with dangerous attitude. I don’t know what will fix that.
I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. Las Vegas class B is the only one I’ve flown close to when I was on flight following trying to get into Henderson and they told me to squak 1200 and see ya. They made me navigate the class B environment that I was unfamiliar with without help from ATC.
The recording indicates a few things going on: sounded like a rough flight, pilot's kid threw up, perhaps he had his hands full. But it's not an excuse for the way he talked to the controller. https://cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2020/09/15/FLM1_Phone_Call_N731NR_-_Redacted.wav
Did anyone ever find out what happened to this pilot?
It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. Not a cool move on his part. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. Maybe follow-up later with a phone call to make sure they knew it was entirely unintentional, you immediately corrected the error, and that safety...
It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. Not a cool move on his part. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. Maybe follow-up later with a phone call to make sure they knew it was entirely unintentional, you immediately corrected the error, and that safety is paramount. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
I noticed the same aircraft had an incident last year with a gear-up landing in St. Louis. The report said the pilot was distracted adjusting the climate control on approach. Again, not a good decision. I hope he stops making bad decisions before he no longer has the ability to do so.
It's hard to begin to defend such irrational and reckless behavior. What almost everyone here is saying is correct (save for the C who ragged on GA pilots - the kind that most ATPS once were in order to get to where they are today- B!).
Now, I hate to defend this guy because what he did was insane but i'm not so quick to pull his ticket simply because I wouldn't want my...
It's hard to begin to defend such irrational and reckless behavior. What almost everyone here is saying is correct (save for the C who ragged on GA pilots - the kind that most ATPS once were in order to get to where they are today- B!).
Now, I hate to defend this guy because what he did was insane but i'm not so quick to pull his ticket simply because I wouldn't want my ticket pulled if I messed up - though I wouldn't like that. Who knows what the FAA would consider a serious offense if we ever make a legitimate error...?
I'm only going this way because something in his demeanor smells like something else is at play. OR... he's actually the A that pilot b called him and in that case, break out the cheese grater and throw the AH over your knee.
It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Time that controller needed for other pilots who HAD to be in the Class B. I can't believe anyone would defend his behavior... Is it that hard to skirt around or over it? He should AT LEAST be...
It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Time that controller needed for other pilots who HAD to be in the Class B. I can't believe anyone would defend his behavior... Is it that hard to skirt around or over it? He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. There is zero excuse for wasting ATC's time in a Class B in this age of airliners everywhere. There's many reasons my flights keep being delayed and canceled... and ATC being overworked is one of them. The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation.
How reassuring and interesting your post is, Eldo. Thank you for your very thoughtful insight.
I’m an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that I’m occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. That being said, it’s not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - it’s often a safety...
I’m an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that I’m occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. That being said, it’s not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - it’s often a safety judgement. Sometimes it’s not possible to accommodate requests, either because of airport or supervisory/FAA edicts or because of systemic procedures or because of current workload. We cannot possibly explain reasoning behind every denial of service at the time it happens. And in any case, if the ATC says you need to get out of the airspace, you do it. Then you are free to call the tower on the landline when you land and find out why you were denied clearance or complain about poor services. In fact, I encourage that. Open the communication! But if we want to affect change, we need to do it safely and respectfully.
Air traffic controllers are susceptible to power trips and moods and biases, just like everyone else. But generally, we want what is best (safest as well as most enjoyable) for the users. We want to do our jobs admirably and we want to make pilots happy. We don’t delight in getting them in trouble. Not only is it against our good nature, but it’s more work to deviate a pilot (“tell on them” in lay terms) than to overlook trivial pilot errors after calling them out, as long as it doesn’t pose an imminent danger. It causes paperwork (at the very least) on both sides and is also distracting from other important duties. If this pilot had responded to the controller’s first comment with, “Oh my gosh. I didn’t realize I had violated class B airspace, can I get vectors out?” then I would bet my life that none of us would have ever even heard this story. That kind of thing happens every day. Mistakes happen. We’re all here to check each other and keep our airspace safe. It’s about attitude, and my only (very generous) defense of this pilot’s terrible attitude is that all of us are more tense and reactive these days with the covid pandemic, elections, riots, BLM, and other socio-political upheavals we’re dealing with globally. Good for the controller for remaining reasonable. She’sa credit to the profession.
Safe travels, everyone!
With respect to my comment above (can’t edit), delete the word “email” from the comment (next to last word).
No one commented on the commercial airliner that had to deviate (immediate drop in altitude) from his glide path when he got a visual on the offending email plane.
Always good to receive a reminder that your pilot may be a nut case and we can just hope we never find out if s/he is or not. The guy should be grounded for a nice long while.
Probably why he's still flying a Cessna and not a jetliner.
This is why the notion of sport and private pilot licenses are a bunch of BS. Civil aviation authorities should raise pilot standards. It’s ridiculous that you’re allowed to take the control of a Cessna independently at 60-80 hours of learning. It should be a few hundred. And an ATP should be a few thousand
The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. I fly in the busy Chicago airspace as a private pilot and...
The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. I fly in the busy Chicago airspace as a private pilot and the vast majority of Private pilots are as professional as the air transport pilots, and are often much less complacent in and around the class B and class C airspace. While working on my instrument rating and flying in and out of Midway airport I heard dozens of Southwest pilots being human, and missing instructions, blowing through airspeed restrictions, among other FAR violations and getting dressed down by ATC when they goofed up. Every pilot has equal access to the airspace system and have
a responsibility to operate safely and competently within the FARs regardless of the price of your plane. From available ATC communications, it appears this particular pilot either forgot to make the request, or thought he made the request to get permission. Happens every day, but not usually with the drama that this knucklehead exhibited... A few weeks ago a commercial pilot blew through the O'hare Bravo - ATC kept trying to gently help him by repeating the local altimeter reading thinking he might check his altitude by the 3rd time he offered it, but eventually just had to notify the errant pilot and provide him with a phone # to call
Ah, Karen. Looks like we found the co-owner of Wife Approved, LLC.
Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation.
Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. Hundreds could have died.
Neil Wilson...the CFII...says "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far"..... You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. The pilot never requested clearance into the class BRAVO airspace.... he...
Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation.
Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. Hundreds could have died.
Neil Wilson...the CFII...says "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far"..... You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. The pilot never requested clearance into the class BRAVO airspace.... he just kept right on going... disregarding the safety of hundreds of people on the SWA planes.
And a few people made comments about masks..... This is about aviation.
I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". Or . . . Maybe "Karen" is the fictitious name the ignorant/uncaring pilot in...
I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". Or . . . Maybe "Karen" is the fictitious name the ignorant/uncaring pilot in this story gave himself!? Hard to believe there is somebody out there kind-of defending him!
Not for nothing, but she’s only got 2 guys in the area, coulda cleared him through.
To all the negative comments we did not hear previous communication. Whether BR was cleared or not he was tracked and being separated. He exercised his PIC. Probably is not the first time he had poor service from ATC.
Well you guys been calling all kind names to this pilot, and you probably right, but he made the mistake or not to come inside of Bravo,the tower job now os to try bring everyone safe in,then let FAA deal with it. ..
The pilots is always in command, not the controller. Penalties, possibly, but he claesrlrx requested class B and was blown off...
"Nobody gives a f*. Humans make mistakes sometimes it’s not a reason to bully somebody. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and don’t get their license suspended. Get the stick out of your asses"
Oh my gosh! The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside...
"Nobody gives a f*. Humans make mistakes sometimes it’s not a reason to bully somebody. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and don’t get their license suspended. Get the stick out of your asses"
Oh my gosh! The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside the nuclear industry. Making excuses for people gets others killed.
Karen:
> Nobody gives a f*. Humans make mistakes sometimes it’s not a reason to bully somebody. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and don’t get their license suspended. Get the stick out of your asses
First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk.
Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's...
Karen:
> Nobody gives a f*. Humans make mistakes sometimes it’s not a reason to bully somebody. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and don’t get their license suspended. Get the stick out of your asses
First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk.
Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's how to correct it" you do just that. You don't insist you didn't make a mistake. (i.e. entering airspace without authorization).
I don't care where people get frustrated. Car accidents because of human error are just as fatal only to less people.
There's no stick up anyone's ass here... just concerned people who want to ensure the people who trust us to get them to point B are safe.
If you read what I wrote with an open mind and still think I have a stick up my ass, go read up on Kobe Bryant... the basketball legend... no longer with us... because someone buckaroo'd it.
So long "Karen". And stop hating on those people in supermarkets and parks.
Ehud
Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. When the controller said he was...
Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. When the controller said he was not cleared to enter the class B he probably thought he wasn't in the class B and after his 1st conversation is when he probably noticed he was off altitude because he made a quick decent to 4000 ft. His next run in is when he cut the corner of the center ring which is from the ground to 10000 ft MSL.
It appears this pilot got sloppy without realizing he got sloppy. He let his situational awareness slip, not a good thing. It appears that this pilot is a child of the "Magenta Line", it looks like he flies with automation on a lot. Doing so erodes hand flying skills which is evident in the last phase of his flight. In the next couple of weeks this is what he can expect:
1 Phone call with FAA to get pilots side of the story.
2 Letter from FAA notifying an investigation is underway, privileges may be suspended or curtailed until investigation is over.
3 This pilot is more than likely going to have to do recurrent training probably 10 to 15 hrs before privalages can be restored.
If this pilot had any sense he would have self reported because his flight recording through the area shows something different than what he thought. He's going to find it hard for anyone to swallow his excuses.
Steve A
Commercial Pilot
Single and Multi engine with Instrument privileges.
CFII ASEL
CTO (Control Tower Operator) with AS Degree in ATC.
Nobody gives a f*. Humans make mistakes sometimes it’s not a reason to bully somebody. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and don’t get their license suspended. Get the stick out of your asses
Gotta love how times have changed
Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. I was the 16yo kid working the desk when his #2 instructor sent a private student off on his long cross country and controlled airspace solo flight he went to lunch. About 45 minutes after the student left my phone rings
Caller - this is xx. I'm the ATC supervisor in FSD is NxxxxR still...
Gotta love how times have changed
Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. I was the 16yo kid working the desk when his #2 instructor sent a private student off on his long cross country and controlled airspace solo flight he went to lunch. About 45 minutes after the student left my phone rings
Caller - this is xx. I'm the ATC supervisor in FSD is NxxxxR still owned by (bus name).
Me - yes sir, IP just sent student name on his long cross country and controlled airspace flight.
Caller - is he available,
Me - no sir back in aprox 20mts. Is there an issue?
Caller - oh you might say that. Student name just called ATC, skipped approach control called the tower directly when he was on a short final for FSD advised his name and I'm coming in. Cut off a commercial airline at the beginning of his short final resulting in a missed approach and go round for him. We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys.
Me - knowing said student thought oh ##@@. Thank you, number as soon as IP returns will have him call.
Result - IP and my Mom who normally ran the business in Dads absence got back at the same time. I drove IP the 95 miles to FSD and he had a session with the controller and the supervisor. He flew the plane and student back, Mom advised student (he wanted to finish he's flight) he was done until she discussed it with IP and Dad as owner and Chief Pilot.
Dad got home that night after his charter. Next morning he called student and flew with him back to FSD did 3 practice approaches with touch and go with the last being a full stop. Wnt to the FBO called the ATC sup from the day before had him and the controller involved from the previous flight, made student apologize for his behavior requested they critique student radio skill (he always had a cigar stub in his mouth, refused to remove it).
For the next month Dad did at least one flight with all of IPs students to check on his teaching ability.
Student - he did get his private after 3 more months of practice. He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him. Student then bought a old Grumen Float plane thinking he would used it to fly back and forth to his lake home. Got it in there but lake was too short for lake off. The dude that delivered it to the lake about busted the landing.
After that Dad called a friend in the FAA out of the STP and reported the now private pilot as a hazzard and requested a re examination. He busted that test and they pulled his ticket. They also rechecked the examiner who tested him on his private he got suspended for a short time and had to recheck as a examiner. It was quite a !@## show.
Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language."
At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him.
I'm a Retired LAS Controller. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! All I can say is...
I'm a Retired LAS Controller. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! All I can say is ATC should be paid for saving people's lives!!!!! Thank one every time you get where you're going
> ATC should have called the Airforce on him. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue.
I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY will fly next to a cessna...
> ATC should have called the Airforce on him. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue.
I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY will fly next to a cessna and then hold up a sign (that conveniently they stashed in the cockpit) and write on it with a magic marker. That's movie crap.
Interceptions are dangerous and that jet blast and thrust from either twin thrust (F-15) or single thrust (F-16) could put the Cessna into a dangerous condition. At the point you're referring to he was a FREAKING IDIOT who SHOULD LOSE HIS CERT violating airspace. That's no cause to kill him.
Go read the news HERE AND NOW and find out when we call the cops with the .50 BMGs to take out one guy going to the store... because he looks "suspicious".*
The wheels of justice grind slowly... but they do grind - Ken White (a lawyer and a good one).
E
FAA CPL-H
P.S. Shout out to Capt. Keith - THANK YOU for all that you did to ensure the safety of your passengers and your crew!
* For those reading this forum long after June 2020, this is a time where law enforcement organizations (LEOs) across the US are being told to stop killing minorities. There are riots. There are "occupations" of the Seattle State Assembly. There are legal charges. Calling the cops on "someone suspicious" has become a way to say "There's a minority person and I don't like something about them so I called the cops on them."
For the bloviating piehole who made a comment about the American pilot who required 31L, I was the PIC and I declared an emergency three times because there was one. I'm not at liberty to discuss the matter further, but the safety of passengers and crew are paramount.
ATC should have called the Airforce on him. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue.
Flightaware shows he flew in from denver at 16300' level the whole way. VFR altitude adjustable to an incorrect barometric pressure of 200'. He flew right across the ILS approach glideslope to LAS 26 after he was told to vacate Bravo airspace recklessly endangering multiple lives. He flew straight to KHND like he owned the sky. Then he flew back to Torrance the next day. IMO he needs to have his ticket pulled for a year minimum.
I was a center controller and am now retired. I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. Even the big airline pilots (American, Delta, etc.) would argue at times. Most were very professional and cooperative but there are always the few that made things difficult.
Once I had to reroute a general aviation pilot around weather to miss other traffic and he would not do it, Finally I was told to...
I was a center controller and am now retired. I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. Even the big airline pilots (American, Delta, etc.) would argue at times. Most were very professional and cooperative but there are always the few that made things difficult.
Once I had to reroute a general aviation pilot around weather to miss other traffic and he would not do it, Finally I was told to ask him "are you refusing an air traffic control clearance?" Only then did he comply with instructions. I was really busy at the time and he took up much of my time and reduced the safe operation of the airspace.
There are reasons for the rules. Controllers do not make up things to pick on pilots.
> Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where they’re apparently allergic to rules.
I'm without reason or belief to know why you lack the ability to be surprised. Talk to your psychotherapist.
Nobody in Vegas is "allergic to rules." The begged question is false.
> Good job on hitting a new high USA! Keep up the anti-mask bs.
Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into...
> Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where they’re apparently allergic to rules.
I'm without reason or belief to know why you lack the ability to be surprised. Talk to your psychotherapist.
Nobody in Vegas is "allergic to rules." The begged question is false.
> Good job on hitting a new high USA! Keep up the anti-mask bs.
Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into Class Bravo airspace has to do with "anti-mask BS".
Really when you hit "submit" you should have not. Good on you for being anti-US and pro-mask and anti-Vegas, but not in a discussion that has nothing to do with that, smart-guy.
E
BTW to the ATC controller who explained workload issues during handoff - thank you!!
For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller:
When approach calls tower about a deviation, they may or may not give details. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do.
My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. The tower controller likely...
For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller:
When approach calls tower about a deviation, they may or may not give details. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do.
My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. The tower controller likely doesn't care, as he won't be handling it. So to appease the pilot and keep him from rattling off more sob story on frequency, he just smiles and waves. I.E "whatever you say, dude"
Been there, done that.
This guy should be banned from flying period! This is serious,you can't be that blatantly disobedient. Go get him FAA!!! This guy make me sick!!!
Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where they're apparently allergic to rules.
Good job on hitting a new high USA! Keep up the anti-mask bs.
I have to say the VASAviation guts who make these videos to an awesome job, its really cool how they combine the audio with the radar detail.
> Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. But I’d recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question.
Double that. Most aircraft are owned by a business, a corporation, a leasing company, or someone who rents their aircraft out. Don't assume the pilot flying owns the aircraft.
This will come out in time. Doxing is...
> Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. But I’d recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question.
Double that. Most aircraft are owned by a business, a corporation, a leasing company, or someone who rents their aircraft out. Don't assume the pilot flying owns the aircraft.
This will come out in time. Doxing is not right. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. They don't take airspace incursions lightly, ESPECIALLY in the #8 most busy airport in the US.
Ehud
FAA CPL-H
We all know the pilot was wrong but.... maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? How hard would it be to just clear him through? He did request a clearance. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. Always IFR but I still...
We all know the pilot was wrong but.... maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? How hard would it be to just clear him through? He did request a clearance. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. Always IFR but I still remember feeling like a pain in the ass for asking for VFR service from a controller having a bad day. He was wrong in what he did but I had to voice this opinion.
Neil Wilson. CFII.
I'm very impressed that he could do all that. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. In other words, his head was so far up his ass...
And he had to know that ATC comms are recorded. Even if the controller cleared him into...
I'm very impressed that he could do all that. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. In other words, his head was so far up his ass...
And he had to know that ATC comms are recorded. Even if the controller cleared him into Bravo, that's no place to question her. Sort it out on the ground, or declare an emergency: pilot is an ass.
Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. But I'd recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question.
"This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions."
Wrong. That award goes to the pilot of PK8303 who ignored multiple warnings about how he was too high and fast, and then tried to land with gear up before killing almost everyone on board.
1) Probably not hypoxia. Looks like he was below 6000 the whole time. You might get hypoxic if you fly right over Class B at 10000 or above.
2) If he claims some kind of medical condition, goodbye medical certificate. The FAA can pull your medical for almost any reason, and you will need some pretty expensive doctor's appointments to get it back. Especially for psychological problems, and probably especially if something's making you hypoxic below 6000 feet.
I'd like to know more about the outcome. This pilot should have been arrested and given a breathalyzer upon landing. His license should be permanently revoked. He risked lives at the time of this incident, and in the future if pilots aren't seriously punished for this kind of behavior. There must be zero tolerance. What happened to this pilot? I'd very much like to know.
ATC controller deserves a medal.
@Francis Bagbey
You can listen along to ATC at liveatc.net and search for RDU in the upper left. (Apologies if external links aren't allowed.)
Sometimes they have multiple frequencies on the same station, so you might hear more than one controller.
What's the big deal? Anarchists on the ground, anarchists in the air. Laws don't matter anymore. Don't get what you want, "burn down the system."
It's not just the danger of him putting his plane where he shouldn't have been--there is the addition of the energy spent dealing with him (multiple radio calls taking time away from other tasks, plus building frustration--controllers are human too, and this stuff can really foul your day).
I hope this guy is ready to hear a lot of "unable VFR services" or "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" when they recognize who...
It's not just the danger of him putting his plane where he shouldn't have been--there is the addition of the energy spent dealing with him (multiple radio calls taking time away from other tasks, plus building frustration--controllers are human too, and this stuff can really foul your day).
I hope this guy is ready to hear a lot of "unable VFR services" or "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" when they recognize who he is again. Either that or he's going to get some very long vectors around special use airspace.
Flying his bird may get a lot less pleasant REAL fast.
He should have declared an emergency when denied entry into Bravo. I would have made up some BS like instruments or alternator. Just like the American pilots did when they couldn't get runway 31 at JFK.
Hey not fair to say that to PIA. They got a full 2/3 of their pilots certificated!!
E
Future PIA pilot?
Is spoiled B short for "Spoiled Bravo Airspace" or "Spoiled Brat" or "Spoiled B...." :)
I once ate spices in the Old City. Almost would have met you that day but water saved me.
Ehud
My local airport is RDU. Where do I go on the Net to get ATC chatter at RDU? Thanks to anyone who knows.
Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so.
The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. I was working the ER In Jerusalem and this belligerent teen was being kept there for observation post head trauma. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. The more belligerent she became the more concerned the staff was....
Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so.
The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. I was working the ER In Jerusalem and this belligerent teen was being kept there for observation post head trauma. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. The more belligerent she became the more concerned the staff was. I suggested they speak with the father and ask him if perhaps, she was a spoiled B. She was released later on.
PS: The trauma was from being hit with luggage that fell out of the overhead upon disembarking.
Any follow up on this? I too am amazed at the next tower's apology.
Having been a pilot for over 50 years let me assure you this pilot will receive more than a you shouldn’t do that anymore. I live in Las Vegas. I’ve dealt the entering class B many times. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, “ Cleared into Brovo”. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. Everything is on tape. The pilot will most likely face a license suspension and other penalties....
Having been a pilot for over 50 years let me assure you this pilot will receive more than a you shouldn’t do that anymore. I live in Las Vegas. I’ve dealt the entering class B many times. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, “ Cleared into Brovo”. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. Everything is on tape. The pilot will most likely face a license suspension and other penalties. This was a blatant disregard of regulations after being told to exit the Class B.
@Coinneach - I’m fully aware of their “rights,” and I do not have to agree with it. My father was an Air Traffic Controller when the accident happened over San Diego in 1979 (not the one on duty when the accident occurred) so I know just as much about the history of this airspace as you claim to know, maybe even more.
Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. I won't belabor those points.
The second LAS TRACON told him to exit Bravo he should have done the max-bank 180 his aircraft and his passenger(s) and he is comfortable with and exited Bravo. [His lack of permission and knowledge about needing such was discussed by previous posters and is referenced here just for completeness.]
To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is...
Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. I won't belabor those points.
The second LAS TRACON told him to exit Bravo he should have done the max-bank 180 his aircraft and his passenger(s) and he is comfortable with and exited Bravo. [His lack of permission and knowledge about needing such was discussed by previous posters and is referenced here just for completeness.]
To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. He did not declare a fuel emergency, so go east over Lake Meade, or go west over Red Rocks and stay out of B and get to HND without any issues. There are published VFR approaches and having flowing the west side "water tower" I know they're trivial.
This guy is a class-one "all about me" narcissist who makes GA pilots look bad. He SHOULD lose his cert for
- entering B without explicit auth
- claiming he got auth when he didn't
- refusing to take down a number because "busy flying"
- attitude, attitude, attitude, and I'm not talking about the aircraft
Ehud Gavron
FAA CPL-H
Tucson AZ US
Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldn’t have a license. Even if he was previously allowed in the airspace, once told to get out, he has to go, no debate and certainly no defiance. This guy’s ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern. This isn’t a slap on the wrist type of offense.
I can almost guarantee you that this clown had the certified letter from the local FSDO awaiting in his mailbox, still smoking by the time he arrived home.
How much you want to bet this pilot is one of the people who refuse to wear a mask?
@the original donna:
"Isn’t the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Ford’s of the world putting the rest of us at risk? Pull that @$$hole’s license and give him a huge fine. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? Or the one over...
@the original donna:
"Isn’t the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Ford’s of the world putting the rest of us at risk? Pull that @$$hole’s license and give him a huge fine. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? Or the one over Cerritos in 1986?"
This may come as a shock to you, but us general aviation Cesena (sic) clowns have as much right to use the airspace as any commercial operation. The requirements for us to enter Bravo airspace are spelled out with extreme clarity in the FARs; this one dickhead decided to ignore those requirements. You don't get to tar the rest of us with his brush.
And the incidents you mention are the exact reason for the existence of Bravo and Charlie airspace in the first place.
In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. All I do is shake my head and smile. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. Good luck. I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my...
In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. All I do is shake my head and smile. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. Good luck. I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my own. I almost always fly IFR. These people keep us safe. Plus..help us if weather becomes a problem, as it did yesterday..with vectors around threatening weather. Don't argue with these pros. They have your lives in their hands.
The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. He shouldn’t be flying anywhere near Class B airspace if he doesn’t understand the regulations. It is quite apparent that the pilot is well versed in being an a**hole.
@Wingslover said, "If you’re having medical issues or you’re feeling unwell you’re not supposed to be in command of an aircraft."
Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. often don't recognize their own issue. Uncharacteristic behavior is often one of the first indicators of an underlying problem.
Or, the guy may be a massive jerk. It will get figured out....
@Wingslover said, "If you’re having medical issues or you’re feeling unwell you’re not supposed to be in command of an aircraft."
Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. often don't recognize their own issue. Uncharacteristic behavior is often one of the first indicators of an underlying problem.
Or, the guy may be a massive jerk. It will get figured out. But you'd think that someone displaying this much attitude and disrespect for critical rules would have shown his true colors and been denied a license much earlier. This leads me to believe that a medical problem or hypoxia or something like that might (emphasis, _might__) have been a factor.
I remember about 20 years ago when my grandfather and I flew up to Vegas to SEMA and we flew outside class bravo and he explicitly explained that we don’t get near that ring until ATC says clear to enter. As soon as I heard this when she said not cleared I remember him saying that’s a $5,000 fine.
The aircraft, N731NR, is registered to "Wife Approved LLC." (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N731NR). What a name for a company! The company is owned by Jeff Wachner, a real estate agent in Southern California.
@Kendor
If you’re having medical issues or you’re feeling unwell you’re not supposed to be in command of an aircaft.
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/a1wehj/so_who_has_one_of_these/
LOL this is probably the same guy that registered the aircraft to WIFE APPROVED LLC. What else could you expect?
What’s with the last controller sounding like he is appeasing this dude, instead of trusting the previous controller. Not saying that he should “yell” at him, but apologizing seemed a bit odd.
He should not even be allowed to control his own d$@k.
The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia.
The plane was a Cessna P210N, so pressurization could be an issue.
Isn’t the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Ford’s of the world putting the rest of us at risk? Pull that @$$hole’s license and give him a huge fine. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? Or the one over Cerritos in 1986?
Just to offer a slightly different perspective on all of this, I am wondering if there's a medical issue here, in which some sympathy might be warranted. Undiagnosed tumors and the like can lead to emotional regulation problems and impaired judgement.
Whether medical or not, whether deserving of sympathy or not, I hope this guy loses his license. This kind of thing gets people killed.
The owner of that plane holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Hopefully (for him) he loaned it to someone else for the day... Otherwise he'll have his license yanked in *very* short order.
This guy is a real threat to himself and others. Clearly not the kind of temperament needed to be a pilot. Last thing I want flying over a populated area is some guy who thinks he owns the airspace, and willing to butt heads over it. The likelihood of an actual air collision is low due to the training of "most" pilots, but you don't need a guy like this.
There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. He responded rogerrrrrrrrrr. Then landed on the beach. Must have been a Kennedy.
This guy has absolutely no business being in command of an automobile, much less an aircraft in class B airspace.
He endangered so many people. The other pilot had it right - he's a real a*&^. The ATC has so many things going on- for him to argue and therefore take her attention away from all the "balls in the air" she is dealing with, the punishment should be more than losing his license, he should be charged with attempted manslaughter or something. I assume the ATC reports him to the FAA and the FAA investigates?
This is a willful/intentional violation of FAR and ATC instructions. The FAA should (and probably will) commence an emergency revocation of the pilot's certificate.
The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying.
Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words “You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace” before entering the Bravo airspace. Anything that may seem like a clearance but does not resemble those exact words is not a clearance.
...The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying.
Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words “You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace” before entering the Bravo airspace. Anything that may seem like a clearance but does not resemble those exact words is not a clearance.
Sometimes, when major airports are busy, they ban transitions through their airspace, in which case you have to either:
- route around, under, or above the relevant airspace
- hold until otherwise instructed
- file an IFR (instrument flight rules) flight plan that gives you the same priority as airline traffic
The guy should be investigated and suspended until taught both manners and flying law.
Source: I hold a private pilot license