United Airlines is threatening to fire its flight attendants who try to profit off of extended flight delays, by triggering pay protection, as flagged by PYOK. While this of course doesn’t directly impact passengers, I find this to be sort of fascinating, and I’m curious just how widespread of an issue this is…
In this post:
United warns flight attendants about “gaming” delays
United has reportedly sent a memo to its 28,000+ flight attendants, warning them of an “impermissible and fraudulent” practice that the company has been noticing, which could trigger termination.
For a bit of background, let me explain the concept of this. Flight attendants have minimum rest periods between flights and trips, which are determined based on both federal regulations and contractual negotiations.
If a flight attendant is working a trip that ends up being seriously delayed, and that prevents them from working the next trip they bid on, they have pay protection. The idea is that they still get paid for that trip, even though they’re not able to work it, because them missing that trip is outside of their control.
But it would appear that some flight attendants have gotten a bit sneaky and entrepreneurial on this front. As we all know, sometimes there are rolling delays, where the departure time keeps getting pushed back. This can be due to air traffic control restrictions, maintenance issues, waiting on a pilot, etc.
United management is essentially accusing some flight attendants of bidding on future trips during rolling delays, with the idea being that they’re doing so without the intent of actually working them, based on an anticipated delay. Per United’s internal memo:
“As United employees, we often have information about delays or cancellations available to us before our systems are updated and before that information is available to our customers. Using that information for a financial benefit is an impermissible trade practice.”
“You must have the intent and ability to operate the trip being picked up or traded into. This principle has been affirmed in multiple arbitration cases. Violating it can result in discipline or termination.”
If that sounds confusing, let me give an example. Say a flight attendant has a minimum rest period of 12 hours between trips. Say they’re working a flight to their base and are finishing their trip, but there’s a rolling maintenance delay.
The idea is that a flight attendant then picks up a trip 12.5 hours after they’re anticipated to return to base, and as long as there’s an additional 30 minute delay, they wouldn’t be allowed to work that trip, but would still get paid for it.
I’m curious how common of an issue this is
Hey, from United’s perspective, this memo is fair enough. Obviously the airline doesn’t want people intentionally bidding on trips that they won’t be able to work, with the sole intent of triggering the pay protection clause in their contract. Now, two things come to mind…
First, I’m curious just how widespread of an issue this is. I mean, you sort of need the perfect storm of a situation (in terms of intent, the flow of a delay, the available trips to pick up, etc.) for this to work. You’d assume this isn’t at all common, but who knows.
Second, United is great with tech, and frankly I’m surprised the airline isn’t able to update its system to prevent this kind of stuff. You’d think United’s internal system would have most of the information about rolling delays, and that could be used to prevent trading onto trips that are at risk of not working out.
Bottom line
United is accusing some flight attendants of engaging in “impermissible and fraudulent” practices during rolling delays. The idea is that flight attendants bid on trips during delays, with the goal of a rolling delay causing them to not be able to work that trip, while still triggering pay protection.
I can understand why the company would take issue with this practice, and try to prevent this. I’m just a bit surprised that this is at all a common practice, since it requires the “perfect storm” of circumstances.
What do you make of this alleged United flight attendant scheme?
If United were a reliable airline then they wouldn’t be having this problem.
United flight attendant here! I always schedule myself in advance with minimum rest times and about 4-5 times a month I go illegal for a trip, get pay protected and released, but I do it the legal way, always days in advance, because I know how disastrous our operations are.
United’s management can go double F themselves. Most of the delays are caused by their poorly trained operations team, greediness and overall incompetence from management. So if their flight crews want to take advantage of their incompetence, why not?!
If you check their app, you can see that 99% of their flight departures have no room for error, for example a flight departing to Miami at 1 pm, if you click on “where’s the...
United’s management can go double F themselves. Most of the delays are caused by their poorly trained operations team, greediness and overall incompetence from management. So if their flight crews want to take advantage of their incompetence, why not?!
If you check their app, you can see that 99% of their flight departures have no room for error, for example a flight departing to Miami at 1 pm, if you click on “where’s the airplane coming from” you’ll see the airplane is arriving at 12:15 pm (“early or on time”) so their genius operations team thinks that deplaning, cleaning, catering and re-boarding can be done in 45 minutes, sometimes when airplanes arrive from international destinations it takes even longer because it has to go through customs formalities.
Many times you have to wrestle with the cleaning personnel because they’re rushed to start cleaning while passengers are deplaning which is not only low class but inconvenient for passengers. Seats are left with tons of food residue and I always find trash in the seat back pockets.
United is chewing more than it can swallow because they’re greedy, they’re incompetent, they lack common sense, and the only reason they’re still in business is because there’s no competition.
My suggestion to United is that they should stop bothering their employees instead they should focus on running common sense operations, stop being greedy by operating more flights than you can actually handle and give your airplanes proper maintenance because this year alone I had to switch airplanes 5 times due to maintenance problems and on at least 4 flights one of the lavatories was out of service.
Any system created no matter how well thought of eventually you find the systems weakness how people are. From theft, to corporate theft, to COVID loans. Its near about 100% to be expected.
Easy solution. Put it in writing have the union sign on to it.
Totally correct. I always remember a time when at my last job, I had to take documents to our CEO (risk officer) to get signed off. I made a comment about how annoying all the red tape was and her response was, "don't blame me. Everything we have in place today is because some jerk did something in the past."
When are you going to post about pilots intentionally delaying flights to get protected on their next trip and be removed . Causing a significant financial cost to the airline . These morons have bigger fish to catch.
What about intentionally finding meaningless mechanical write ups to delay flights as an unlawful way to strike ?
What about the mechanics ? Taking their sweet time to delay premium flights during negotiations ?
...
When are you going to post about pilots intentionally delaying flights to get protected on their next trip and be removed . Causing a significant financial cost to the airline . These morons have bigger fish to catch.
What about intentionally finding meaningless mechanical write ups to delay flights as an unlawful way to strike ?
What about the mechanics ? Taking their sweet time to delay premium flights during negotiations ?
Why are all these bloggers always about the flight attendants? Why are we so interesting to you ?
*cough* delta....
This has happened in the past, and the terminated FAs were not brought back even in arbitration.
This is not a significant issue - out of 31,000 FA at UA today, the terminations this year (as always) will be based on not showing up to work, dependability, drug and alcohol violations, severe issues with coworkers and passengers and lying/falsification issues. There will be other discrete issues that come up.
For this post to be...
This has happened in the past, and the terminated FAs were not brought back even in arbitration.
This is not a significant issue - out of 31,000 FA at UA today, the terminations this year (as always) will be based on not showing up to work, dependability, drug and alcohol violations, severe issues with coworkers and passengers and lying/falsification issues. There will be other discrete issues that come up.
For this post to be up as well as on Matthew's blog - must be a slow weekend?
31,000 FAs - a small city. Issues happen in that city - this population is not different. We are not talking 3000, 1000 or even 500 FAs. The number is likely in the two digits if not lower.
And like Matthew's blog you didn't really discuss the concept of line guarantee for UA FA crew, well of course, how could you, because you don't actually understand it.
Can we get back to discussing terrible crew-customer interactions - management-crew-customer interactions etc? Issues that actually directly impact the customer rather than 12 FA out of 31,000 gaming the system? For which they will be fired and terminations upheld?
From your several heated comments on this topic it seems like it struck a nerve somehow. Do you not think this is a story that warrants being told? Are you guessing/speculating how many are doing this? Not saying you’re right or wrong it just seems you have very strong opinions on this and keen to know why :)
It won’t stand in court. You can’t prove intention. End.
But you can, and it has been upheld numerous times in previous arbitrations and termination cases that went forward.. and specifically the fired UA FAs were not brought back. Terminations upheld.
Stop conflating certain civil rights with those to which the subject is employment. Please just stop....
"You can’t prove intention. End."
LOL!
Don't make ill-informed statements and end them with such pomposity, as you embarrass yourself. "End." LOL!
Intention can be and is provable in court, in both civil and criminal cases. That's not to say it is always proven, but you're still humiliatingly wrong. Go, now, and think about how ashamed you are.
You have enough time to engage in something you believe is incorrect. Wasteful . KISS.
Intent is the point of difference in murder vs manslaughter, just to give one important example.
So airlines corporations set up the game and the rules and if they are beaten at their own game, they threaten to fire them? Go figure. Eat it, you will lose some of the time. There is no 100% victory.
Airlines industry is probably 2nd most corrupt cartel in this country. They can overbook tickets without any serious consequences and the bought and sold congress won't do anything about it. Yet, they don't hesitate to run to taxpayers when they are in trouble.
I'm guessing no one commenting on here is actually a flight attendant. What this article fails to mention is that pay protection is not always Scott free. The company is able to reassign flight attendants to other trips that they would normally utilize reserve flight attendants for, as long as the timing falls within our legalities. Sometimes schedulers even create new trips to cover flights for reassignment even if there is nothing that fits within...
I'm guessing no one commenting on here is actually a flight attendant. What this article fails to mention is that pay protection is not always Scott free. The company is able to reassign flight attendants to other trips that they would normally utilize reserve flight attendants for, as long as the timing falls within our legalities. Sometimes schedulers even create new trips to cover flights for reassignment even if there is nothing that fits within the time parameters needed. Also, for most delays we get information the same time as passengers. I don't participate in this practice but like many have said, "Don't hate the player, hate the game" A contract is a contract.
So you don’t have complete information….if you are scheduled to work a flight and are delayed causing a distruption to your next flight you are pay protected but must be reassigned to a new trip to receive that pay…. If you don’t work you are not payed…in rare instances if the company doesn’t have another open trip for you , the may release you….this almost never happens! And in my experience the company deliberately reassigns...
So you don’t have complete information….if you are scheduled to work a flight and are delayed causing a distruption to your next flight you are pay protected but must be reassigned to a new trip to receive that pay…. If you don’t work you are not payed…in rare instances if the company doesn’t have another open trip for you , the may release you….this almost never happens! And in my experience the company deliberately reassigns you to the worst trips they have available….as if the cancellation or delay was your fault….
Please try and be more balanced in your reporting, don’t only accept the company’s explanation without getting the perspective of the employees as well
It happens every single day. No hater of the game, United management is just better at playing than the Flight Attendants ever will be. It's blatantly fraudulent and creates additional delays/cancellations downline due to staffing.
Simply brilliant. Dont hate the player.
Now let's cut managers' bonuses, and a whole boatload of unnecessary middle management, and other useless money wasting things like the consulting industry.
"some flight attendants have gotten a bit sneaky and entrepreneurial"
So cheating and scamming is now simply accepted and described as being "entrepreneurial". This speaks volumes about our society, and about whoever wrote this.
More evidence that as we live in the age of Trump, where we are so soaked in greed, corruption and lies that anything you can steal is considered fair game, and theft is casually described as being "entrepreneurial". Mendacity and corruption...
"some flight attendants have gotten a bit sneaky and entrepreneurial"
So cheating and scamming is now simply accepted and described as being "entrepreneurial". This speaks volumes about our society, and about whoever wrote this.
More evidence that as we live in the age of Trump, where we are so soaked in greed, corruption and lies that anything you can steal is considered fair game, and theft is casually described as being "entrepreneurial". Mendacity and corruption is so pervasive in society today, people can't even see it - like a fish being unaware of the water that surrounds it. OK, that's how you live your life, run your business, and how you see the world, thanks for being transparent about your ethics.
Yes bad bad employees, because in turn, corporations are well known for their ethical behavior....:rolleyes:
@Seetha, "entrepreneurial"...in this case it's sarcasm, meant to be funny and critical. I chuckled.
Yes. That boil on your backside is because of Trump.
I’m with United on this one, even though enforcement may be tricky. In Ben’s example, the employee who is swapping to score free pay is screwing up the operation on an already bad day. That later flight had a ready-to-go crew and it now has an incomplete crew because someone is going to time out. That increases the chances of that later flight being delayed or cancelled.
Im not with United on this one and here's why how would an FA know this delay is going to turn into a rolling delay unless that information comes from United? If United knows a delay is going to turn into a rolling delay or a delayed flight is already in a rolling delay then why not just update the FA's schedule which would update their release time. I'll tell you why United doesn't update...
Im not with United on this one and here's why how would an FA know this delay is going to turn into a rolling delay unless that information comes from United? If United knows a delay is going to turn into a rolling delay or a delayed flight is already in a rolling delay then why not just update the FA's schedule which would update their release time. I'll tell you why United doesn't update FA's schedules during rolling delays because once an FA's schedule is updated and their projected release time exceeds their contractual duty day that FA can then option off the trip or off the flight. United wants their cake and to eat it too, but they can't have it both ways. Getting word from the captain isn't an "OFFICIAL" update, getting word from the gate agent or a supervisor isn't an official update. An official update is when the FA's actual schedule is updates by United. However instead of doing things the right way and updating the FA's schedule to reflect the rolling delay which would push back their release, United will leave the schedule as is and update it after the door is closed and plane is pushed when the FA can no longer option off.
If a FA can't option off a flight or a trip based of the word of a captain, gate agent, or supervisor during a rolling delay then United can't used that as a reason to tell an FA they had no business picking up a trip due to a rolling delay. If United wishes to end this practice then update FA's schedules during the delay its that simple.
i think a simple bidding on trips requires a 24 hour circuit breaker so this likely wont happen....seems like a pretty easy fix from a technical standpoint.
In Kazakistan they don't have this problem . They have other problems .
Great comment and incisive point. Libya doesn't have this problem, either. They, too, have other problem. Maybe Libya and Kazakhstan (note the correct spelling) should become global sister cities.*
*(I know, everyone, they're countries, but just play along with me here.)
What's with the crazy anti-union vitriol? Whose boots are air travelers licking? I guess it makes sense if you're a frequent flyer you may have a little corp-dog blood in ya, but maybe white collar middle-management may want to be thinking about unionizing...AI and gonna care if you've toed the line for your career at this rate.
Be nicer to the FA's, they fought hard for those protections and deserve them. Also feel free...
What's with the crazy anti-union vitriol? Whose boots are air travelers licking? I guess it makes sense if you're a frequent flyer you may have a little corp-dog blood in ya, but maybe white collar middle-management may want to be thinking about unionizing...AI and gonna care if you've toed the line for your career at this rate.
Be nicer to the FA's, they fought hard for those protections and deserve them. Also feel free to tip your sly waiter, they will gladly take it!
Every other article these days is about FA (and FA union) shenanigans.
All the US airlines with unionized FAs need to get together and decertify en masse. Now is the time to have the fight.
"All the US airlines with unionized FAs need to get together and decertify en masse."
Huh? Aside from the fact that you're suggesting a textbook definition of collusion, do you even know who certifies FA unions? Hint: It's not the airlines.
"Now is the time to have the fight."
Are you saying *now* is the time to crap on labor? If so (and your comment is so vague as to not be fully understandable), your...
"All the US airlines with unionized FAs need to get together and decertify en masse."
Huh? Aside from the fact that you're suggesting a textbook definition of collusion, do you even know who certifies FA unions? Hint: It's not the airlines.
"Now is the time to have the fight."
Are you saying *now* is the time to crap on labor? If so (and your comment is so vague as to not be fully understandable), your tone deafness is next-level, considering the wealth disparity rage being felt around the world right now. You may want to take that comment over to Breitbart, where you'll get a very, very, very welcome reception. RWNJs are the kings (and a lot of those are closet queens) of self loathing.
It's not always inside knowledge sometimes it's just common sense that during a IROPS event this flight is likely to delay.
“As United employees, we often have information about delays or cancellations available to us before our systems are updated and before that information is available to our customers.“
Love how they basically admit to misleading customers about the length of delays and likelihood of cancellations.
Actually United is one of the most honest about delays. You cannot imagine how dishonest Air Canada is.
This is the kind of crap unions encourage. Not surprised it’s happening and apparently growing.
No, unions do not ‘encourage’ this. Nonsense.
Certain members might engage, and like I said below, this is more so breaking the *spirit* of the rules than anything else.
i wouldnt say the union leadership encourages this...but FA unions are some of the most childish behaviors out there.....its annoying at the childish arguments within FA unions these days. I just wish there was more civility and professionalism in terms of some these shenanigans.
“gotten a bit sneaky and entrepreneurial” … nice euphemism. If it were corporate doing this against workers, they’d say, ‘it’s just business.’ (Yet, when workers or consumers find the ‘arbitrage,’ obviously …bad. /s)
Depends whether this is actually breaking a real rule, or just goes against the ‘spirit’ of the rules, but not literally violating them.