We know that Delta is trying to grow across the Pacific, and even wants to beat United in the region, which seems like quite the lofty goal. So we’ve seen the airline announce new routes, to places like Hong Kong (HKG) and Manila (MNL), with many more to come.
We can now add yet another airport to the list, with a route that I can’t make sense of in the slightest… I’m curious if others can try to rationalize this.
In this post:
Delta resumes Seattle to Tokyo Narita route after seven years
Delta has announced that as of March 28, 2027, it’ll resume nonstop daily flights between Seattle (SEA) and Tokyo Narita (NRT). The flight is expected to operate with the following schedule:
Seattle to Tokyo Narita departing 1:35PM arriving 4:20PM (+1 day)
Tokyo Narita to Seattle departing 6:30PM arriving 12:00PM
The 4,739-mile flight is blocked at 10hr45min westbound and 9hr30min eastbound. Interestingly, Delta will use an Airbus A330-900neo for the route. The route is of course well within range for the plane, but a couple of years back we saw Delta exclusively switch to using the Airbus A350-900 for its mainland United States to Asia routes, so I guess the airline is backtracking on that strategy.
This represents a route resumption, as Delta last operated this service seven years ago. This coincided with when Delta completely pulled out of Tokyo Narita Airport — the airline had picked up some more slots at Tokyo Haneda Airport (HND), so decided to focus operations there.
For a sense of how this fits into overall capacity:
- In terms of greater Tokyo area operations, Delta flies to Tokyo Haneda out of Atlanta (ATL), Detroit (DTW), Honolulu (HNL), Los Angeles (LAX), Minneapolis (MSP), and Seattle (SEA)
- When it comes to Delta’s transpacific service out of Seattle, the airline otherwise flies to Seoul Incheon (ICN), Shanghai (PVG), Taipei (TPE), and Tokyo Haneda (HND)
- In the Seattle to Tokyo Narita market, Delta will be competing directly against Alaska and Japan Airlines, with All Nippon Airways also operating to Tokyo Haneda
What is Delta’s strategy with returning to Tokyo Narita?
I thought it was perfectly logical several years back when Delta shut down operations at Tokyo Narita, and focused on Tokyo Haneda. Tokyo Haneda is generally the more popular airport for “local” traffic (given how much closer to the city it is). Since Delta was able to get slots for the airport for all desired routes, that positioned the airline well.
Tokyo Narita is largely about connectivity, and unlike American and United, Delta doesn’t have a major partner there (American has a partnership with Japan Airlines, and United has a partnership with All Nippon Airways).
So I really can’t wrap my head around what Delta is trying to accomplish here?
- Is this a competitive response to Alaska, in hopes of just making both airlines hemorrhage money on this route? Does Delta want to see if it can somehow make things so miserable for Alaska that the airline is forced to shut down long haul operations (it seems unlikely to succeed, but…)?
- Is this really about just adding capacity to the Tokyo area, and if so, does Delta think it’s going to capture profitable traffic this way?
- What connecting traffic will this capture that couldn’t otherwise be routed through Delta’s beloved Seoul Incheon (ICN) hub, where everything feeds into the network of joint venture partner Korean Air?
This just strikes me as a very strange route add. It seems highly unlikely the airline will make money on this route, and it’s not even really “adding a dot to the map,” as it’s just a co-terminal airport.
Bottom line
As of late March 2027, Delta plans to launch daily nonstop flights between Seattle and Tokyo Narita, complementing service to Tokyo Haneda. The airline pulled out of Narita Airport around seven years ago, after picking up additional slots at Haneda Airport.
Nothing about this route makes sense to me, as Delta is also at a major disadvantage in terms of connectivity. Is this route just to spite Alaska, or what’s the logic, exactly? Delta’s yields across the Pacific are worsening (unlike at American and United), and something tells me that situation will get worse before it gets better.
What do you make of Delta adding Seattle to Tokyo Narita flights?
I am interested in the choice of serving NRT out of SEA instead of LAX where DL claimed they are trying to build up (with recent add of HKG and MNL soon) as the "largest global airline at LAX." Seems to me they can't stick to their strategy, or am I wrong?
nowhere except in the minds of some people did DL ever say that it would grow LAX at the expense of growth elsewhere.
and, maybe, just maybe, DL will re-add LAX-NRT if demand is really there.
the 339 can easily fly LAX-NRT as it can most routes from the west coast to Japan.
and it is possible that DL might add a 5th freedom route or two behind NRT using 339s. Those rights do...
nowhere except in the minds of some people did DL ever say that it would grow LAX at the expense of growth elsewhere.
and, maybe, just maybe, DL will re-add LAX-NRT if demand is really there.
the 339 can easily fly LAX-NRT as it can most routes from the west coast to Japan.
and it is possible that DL might add a 5th freedom route or two behind NRT using 339s. Those rights do still exist and there might be a case for DL to serve some destinations in Asia beyond NRT on its own metal which it cannot do from HND and where DL metal is a better choice than on KE metal from ICN.
DL has reopened consideration of a number of possibilities.
“Delta - Some New Routes Are Possible!”
Other more premium global airlines actually are launching new routes nonstop
every route is nonstop between two points. duh!
every route is nonstop between two points. duh!
Hi Tim, Serious question. Why do you resort to such nasty and juvenile comments in your posts?
Here's a sample from some of your recent posts:
"Are you that bad w/ math, accounting and logic..."
"all that is interesting is your selective ignorance of facts"
"get with your dumb sidekick Andy."
"you are beyond naive."
"and you make the dumb-au8o assumption"
To be honest you sound like one of the losers on Tik-Tok who get off on "schooling" people.
When Tim’s post get nasty it means he knows he’s on shakier ground and even he knows the points he makes aren’t very credible.
It also means he’s not a very nice person.
Lea Lane,
when the same people make the same stupid comments based on manipulated data or cherrypicking, it is very much valid to call them for what they are.
in must two of his posts to this article, Mark claims DL is copying AS but DL was in longhaul international long before AS was. He is simply and factually wrong.
In another he argues that DOT data is wrong because he doesn't...
Lea Lane,
when the same people make the same stupid comments based on manipulated data or cherrypicking, it is very much valid to call them for what they are.
in must two of his posts to this article, Mark claims DL is copying AS but DL was in longhaul international long before AS was. He is simply and factually wrong.
In another he argues that DOT data is wrong because he doesn't like the fact that DL makes more money per ASM over the Pacific - and across its entire network.
He says there is no way to properly divide revenues or profits and yet UA - the company he peddles for - provides exactly that data to the DOT which simply reports it.
Mark is simply wrong over and over again and yet he comes back and continues being wrong because he can't admit - just like a whole bunch of other UA fan nuts - that DL runs a better business and a better airline.
If UA was as good as DL, UA would be reporting 110% of DL's profits and have 110% of DL's revenue and market cap - but none of those are happening
There is a point where it is appropriate to call out fools for what they are.
There are plenty of other people that I treat w/ respect.
@Lea Lane - Tiny Handed Tim is a failed former DL analyst, fired there and banned from multiple other travel sites. Clearly wakes up each day, spoils for a DL fight, ready to type his daily, near identical 100k words. SAD INDIVIDUAL!
Of course DL would never say they’re growing one hub at the expense of another (what airline would ever say that?), yet it’s so clear neither TPAC hub is working well for them.
Look at SEA vs LAX. They’re a distant number two in SEA and have already ended many TPAC routes. In LAX they are not even at 20% share, only 2% more than the next largest, in one of the most competitive...
Of course DL would never say they’re growing one hub at the expense of another (what airline would ever say that?), yet it’s so clear neither TPAC hub is working well for them.
Look at SEA vs LAX. They’re a distant number two in SEA and have already ended many TPAC routes. In LAX they are not even at 20% share, only 2% more than the next largest, in one of the most competitive markets in the world, where nobody will ever truly dominate.
SEA has TPE and NRT. LAX has HKG and MNL. A true powerhouse hub would serve every destination, with the secondary one serving just the top markets.
Look at UA’s crown jewel SFO hub to see how it’s done. SFO serves all the markets while LAX is the secondary hub that serves the top markets. Note that UA’s secondary hub still has more service than DL’s primary hub in LAX. Or is SEA the primary hub? No way to know.
DL has two losing choices between LAX and SEA, but at least one is a “must win”. It’s why you see them going for broke with money losing HKG and an even bigger money loser with SEA-NRT.
Their TPAC yields are underperforming UA, and these clunkers out of substandard hubs will dilute yields further, especially as AS continues to grow in SEA and UA/AA aren’t going anywhere in LAX.
the hypocrisy remains on full display.
DL's share premium at LAX is larger than UA's in NYC and yet you go on endlessly about the advantages that UA has. Which is it, Mark?
and you still can't figure out that UA has put 90% of its TPAC eggs in one basket - SFO. meanwhile, DL is the largest TPAC airline not only outside of CA but also east of the west coast.
You can't...
the hypocrisy remains on full display.
DL's share premium at LAX is larger than UA's in NYC and yet you go on endlessly about the advantages that UA has. Which is it, Mark?
and you still can't figure out that UA has put 90% of its TPAC eggs in one basket - SFO. meanwhile, DL is the largest TPAC airline not only outside of CA but also east of the west coast.
You can't admit that UA's hyperfocus on SFO has left the opportunity for other carriers- mostly DL - to carry a whole lot of traffic which UA simply cannot connect over SFO. Do you know how many scores of cities DL serves from MSP, DTW, and ATL, all of which have at least 2 destinations in E. Asia on DL? The only other UA hub that has 2 E. Asia destinations is EWR and I can absolutely assure you that ATL, DTW and MSP are better suited for connections to the eastern US than EWR.
and DL has a China flight at DTW while UA has no China or HKG flights outside of CA.
DL also has SLC-ICN which is roughly comparable to UA's DEN-NRT flight.
No, DL has lots of choices and they are exercising them. You are simply incapable of admitting that DL sat and watched UA over the Pacific for 5 years and decided it knows exactly where UA is vulnerable.
your criticism of DL on LAX-HKG is laughable given that UA operated 2 flights/day with LFs in the 60s for years until they tagged SE Asia onto 2 HKG flights - which increased costs far faster than the increase in revenue.
feel free to provide the data on TPAC yields, Mark.
yes, you are right, AA and UA aren't going anywhere. DL is and will be growing at a much faster rate.
The reason why you are so easy to play is because you are completely incapable of admitting that someone else can do something better than your beloved UA even as the evidence overwhelmingly says that DL IS doing a whole lot better than UA.
and DL is coming for the one asset that UA uniquely holds which is its TPAC presence
In LTD's mind the crown jewel, SFO, is a negative. Hyperfocus? Hilarious.
Poor UA is only twice as big as DL in the Pacific with a better operating profit margin. They left the door wide open in the #16, #16 & #34 metro areas. Can't make this stuff up.
nope.
SFO IS UA's crown jewel.
The problem is that UA hasn't developed its route system from its eastern US hubs which is why DL does so well from those hubs.
What is poor is your inabililty to admit that UA doesn't do everything well.
If it did it would fly some of the capacity it flies from SFO from its hubs east of the Rockies including ORD. It is mind-blowing that DL serves 3X...
nope.
SFO IS UA's crown jewel.
The problem is that UA hasn't developed its route system from its eastern US hubs which is why DL does so well from those hubs.
What is poor is your inabililty to admit that UA doesn't do everything well.
If it did it would fly some of the capacity it flies from SFO from its hubs east of the Rockies including ORD. It is mind-blowing that DL serves 3X more cities in E. Asia from DTW than UA has from ORD and DL's MSP hub serves 2 Asian destinations.
Instead of repeating yelling rah-rah about everything UA, how about you accept that UA's strategies have left a whole lot of the US market to E. Asia for DL and DL is aggressively competing for the west coast other than SFO where I don't expect DL will return with its own metal to E. Asia.
but then, UA doesn't even fly ATL-LAX which is one of the industry's biggest markets so UA clearly doesn't have it all covered.
the TPAC revenue advantage that DL has comes from the fact that it has single connection service to E. Asia from a lot of cities in the eastern US that UA simply does not serve on the same basis.
It's a matter of priority. I can't imagine SEA has higher demand to NRT than LAX, so it's still not making a lot of sense to start NRT from SEA over LAX. DL only flies to PVG, HND, and HKG (MNL soon) from LAX while from SEA DL serves HND, ICN, TPE, PVG. For UA from LAX, it serves PVG, HND, NRT, HKG, and MNL. Clearly, DL has some catching up to do at LAX, and yet, they are adding NRT from SEA and not from LAX.
It has not been discussed in this that there are two alliance related reasons that could be behind this announcement from DL.
1. Asiana will cease to exist late this year and its capacity will be folded into Korean which is a DL JV partner. DL has to add its own capacity to offset the addition of OZ capacity to the JV; it can be anywhere on DL's global network but it has been known...
It has not been discussed in this that there are two alliance related reasons that could be behind this announcement from DL.
1. Asiana will cease to exist late this year and its capacity will be folded into Korean which is a DL JV partner. DL has to add its own capacity to offset the addition of OZ capacity to the JV; it can be anywhere on DL's global network but it has been known for years - because the KE/OZ merger has been years in the making - that DL would have to aggressively grow over the Pacific in order for the OZ capacity to be merged into KE.
2. there is a very good possibility that AS will join one or more of the oneworld JVs and the JL and BA JVs are most likely. Neither AS or JL fly SEA-HND which DL and NH fly but both AS and JL fly SEA-NRT.
DL's decision to add NRT could be as much about making sure it remains the primary choice in TATL and TPAC corporate travel choice from SEA including to Tokyo. While HND is higher yielding, as others have noted, there clearly is a market to NRT. DL is the ony US airline that flies to Tokyo that does not also serve NRT.
and then consider that DL is re-adding the 330-900 which is most directly competitive with AS' 789s in total seats and yet AS' 789s do not yet have premium economy while the 789s do. DL has seen its cargo growth surge as it puts it has made the 350 its near exclusive TPAC aircraft and yet the 339 is very capable on SEA-Tokyo which is one of the shortest TPAC route and shorter than some TATL routes that DL uses the 339 for.
and the 339 has fewer premium seats than the 359 so it is good for more leisure-oriented routes of which there are likely others that DL could add from SEA.
the real issue comes down to the hypocrisy of some that have loved to tout AS' size advantage at SEA which is entirely driven by its larger domestic size. DL has been flying longhaul international from its SEA hub for over a decade and DL/NW for far longer than that. AS just jumped into the longhaul international game over the past couple years.
It is beyond hypocritical to argue that AS has a size advantage at SEA while not acknowledging that DL has that advantage in longhaul international. both can and should use those advantages where they can.
DL said it would grow its TPAC network and SEA is getting growth just as LAX has. DL is not just targeting UA including w/ new dots down the Pacific Rim.
and AS is trying to build international at the same time that it is digesting loss-making Hawaiian and fighting w/ WN up and down the west coast including at SAN. AS has its hands more than full; it is to be expected that DL will flex its international size muscles at SEA just as WN is doing in other markets including SAN.
If AS is really as good as many think they are, they should be just fine w/ more competiition - and DL might be the only airline or alliance that serves both Tokyo airports from SEA.
DL is the Pan Am of SEA.
Cirium data shows that for the last four quarters Delta’s SEA hub domestic stage-length adjusted unit revenue is 15% below system average and 2.5% below DL’s 2nd worst performing hub, SLC. Yikes!
https://www.patreon.com/Enilria/posts/this-is-why-does-112603799
and yet DL is growing SEA int'l while you and everyone else is convinced DL can't make money there.
Again, why can't you ask the question as to what every other airline has been doing for the last 48 years of deregulation that DL can manage to "play around" in SEA and still report by far the largest profits of the US airline industy?
while DL and NW were serving the Pacific for decades, AS...
and yet DL is growing SEA int'l while you and everyone else is convinced DL can't make money there.
Again, why can't you ask the question as to what every other airline has been doing for the last 48 years of deregulation that DL can manage to "play around" in SEA and still report by far the largest profits of the US airline industy?
while DL and NW were serving the Pacific for decades, AS was perfectly happy to be a PNW focused airline for most of those 48 years and has bought HA which loses money even before JCBAs while fighting w/ WN for dominance up and down the west coast including at SAN.
and UA spent most of the past 48 years fighting w/ labor and then putting dots on route maps including most recently w/ summer seasonal int;l routes on narrowbody configured aircraft only to find out that being in 4th place in the US domestic market explains why DL and AA have much richer credit card contracts. In order to grow domestic, UA is having to spend much more than any other carrier to add terminals and aircraft and there is still no evidence that UA is improving its position in competitive nonhub markets.
These are the two competitors that DL has to win against over the Pacific. as has happened for 48 years of deregulation, DL has outsmarted and won against every one of its competitors.
DL will retain its position as the largest international carrier at SEA and will continue to grow its position as the largest carrier at LAX even while whittling down if not eliminating UA's lead over the Pacific on a nationwide basis.
no need to vomit a bunch of statistics and data to argue against that reality, rebel. Everyone that is even remotely capable of seeing the big picture knows what is happening.
48 years? Methinks thou doth protest too much.
ATL-RUH ferry flights
SEA-NRT after leaving NRT and moving all A330s out of TPAC
NYC-Asia? Nada
AUS-CDG?
Looks like GE DJ is no substitute for Glen Hauenstein.
Do you bat against the air in every area of your life or just the airline industry - because UA pays you to defend UA?
DL has been far more aggressive since Hauenstein left - but, as I have noted, it has been certain that DL would have to grow its TPAC network as a result of the KE/OZ merger which was years in the making.
The timing of the 35Ks - which were...
Do you bat against the air in every area of your life or just the airline industry - because UA pays you to defend UA?
DL has been far more aggressive since Hauenstein left - but, as I have noted, it has been certain that DL would have to grow its TPAC network as a result of the KE/OZ merger which was years in the making.
The timing of the 35Ks - which were ordered years ago - support that timeline.
how did UA not see its Africa ambitions crumble in the face of its withdrawals from multiple markets? Do you think UA is permanently incapable of trying another Africa route?
thank you for recognizing that AUS-CDG will be the route to discuss next week.
Suppose DL will get some incentives from AUS just as it has for RUH?
and we are near the timeline for announcing summer 2027 routes for every US airline which could mean even more dots on route maps for DL and more new routes for DL across the Pacific including upgauges to the 35K, the most efficient and capable aircraft in the US carrier widebody fleet.
Wide body aircraft
UA: 240 with 10 more 787s by the end of 2026, & ≈ 115 more by 2030
DL: 180 with 3 more 359s by the end of 2026, & ≈ 50 more by 2030
UA: 1,135 aircraft, (240 WB), 175 WB/408 NB on order (15.1 average fleet age)
AA: 1,030 aircraft, (137 WB), 19 WB/270 NB on order (14.7 average fleet age)
DL: 1,004 aircraft, (180 WB), 84...
Wide body aircraft
UA: 240 with 10 more 787s by the end of 2026, & ≈ 115 more by 2030
DL: 180 with 3 more 359s by the end of 2026, & ≈ 50 more by 2030
UA: 1,135 aircraft, (240 WB), 175 WB/408 NB on order (15.1 average fleet age)
AA: 1,030 aircraft, (137 WB), 19 WB/270 NB on order (14.7 average fleet age)
DL: 1,004 aircraft, (180 WB), 84 WB/248 NB on order (15.1 average fleet age)
Since 2016 after Kirby’s arrival UA grew from 102 to 140 int’l destinations while DL shrank from 105 to 94 int’l destinations. UA overtook DL in the Atlantic and Latin America and is larger in the Pacific than DL & AA combined.
Worldwide destinations 3/20/26
UA: 404
AA: 353
DL: 311
Int'l destinations 2016/2025
TPAC: UA: 23/32, DL: 15/8 , AA: 8/7
TATL: UA: 22/42 , DL: 32/34, AA: 21/20
TLAT: AA: 92/97, UA: 57/66 , DL: 58/52
yes, we get it.
In your deranged mind, UA has every advantage but can't translate it into either a bottom line advantage or running an operationally superior airline.
and your statement about DL and Pan Am is beyond stupid. DL is the most profitable US airline while Pan Am consistently lost money.
and Pan Am didn't have a domestic network in line w/ its international network.
and yet DL's SEA domestic operation...
yes, we get it.
In your deranged mind, UA has every advantage but can't translate it into either a bottom line advantage or running an operationally superior airline.
and your statement about DL and Pan Am is beyond stupid. DL is the most profitable US airline while Pan Am consistently lost money.
and Pan Am didn't have a domestic network in line w/ its international network.
and yet DL's SEA domestic operation is larger than UA in every west coast city except for SFO - including LAX.
It is actually UA at LAX that is the Pan Am of the west coast.
what a peabrain you are
Your lack of self-awareness is as impressive as your unparalleled talent for projection and your tantrums in response to simple facts and data tell the tale.
the deflection from making a stupid statement is on full display.
On two separate sites, you said that DL is the Pan Am of SEA.
even w/o considering how much more profitable DL is than any other US airline, DL has a larger domestic presence than any UA station on the west coast except for SFO - including LAX.
You tried to be cute by throwing out a stupid statement and got shown to be the hypocrite that has no clue what you are talking about.
Just
walk
away
Cirium data shows that for the last four quarters Delta’s SEA hub domestic stage-length adjusted unit revenue is 15% below system average and 2.5% below DL’s 2nd worst performing hub, SLC. Yikes!
you made a stupid statement and now just double down on your deflections instead of admitting how stupid your statement was - or, better yet, just walk away.
DL manages to deliver the best financial results in the US airline industry despite this supposed anchor that SEA is to them.
Again, why can't you answer the question of what every other airline that has been around since deregulation been doing for the past 48 years...
you made a stupid statement and now just double down on your deflections instead of admitting how stupid your statement was - or, better yet, just walk away.
DL manages to deliver the best financial results in the US airline industry despite this supposed anchor that SEA is to them.
Again, why can't you answer the question of what every other airline that has been around since deregulation been doing for the past 48 years that they can't deliver profits as large as DL and still have "fix it up" hubs like you believe SEA is?
the silence is deafening. because you know that DL has outstrategized the industry since deregulation started - and DL is not thru yet
"DL has outstrategized the industry since deregulation started"
Not exactly a who's who of airline history. 1 out of 7? Sorry, that dog don't hunt.
David C. Garrett Jr. (1978–1987)
Ronald W. Allen (1987–1997)
Leo F. Mullin (1997–2004)
Gerald Grinstein (2004–2007)
Richard H. Anderson (2007–2016)
Edward H. Bastian (2016–Present)
DL has moved from 6th largest in the US in 1978 to largest by revenue, profits and market cap.
DL has grown more hubs than any other airline including opening hubs in other airline strength markets - which precisely describes SEA.
We know you are incapable of admitting the truth but DL has outstrategized its competitors and taken better advantage of deregulation than any other airline.
It is not a surprise that AA and UA...
DL has moved from 6th largest in the US in 1978 to largest by revenue, profits and market cap.
DL has grown more hubs than any other airline including opening hubs in other airline strength markets - which precisely describes SEA.
We know you are incapable of admitting the truth but DL has outstrategized its competitors and taken better advantage of deregulation than any other airline.
It is not a surprise that AA and UA were opposed to deregulation while DL supported it
You said "outstrategized" which for anyone who knows anything about the airline business is laughable especially when looking at Delta's chief strategists over the years. As they say, I would rather be lucky than good.
Richard Anderson is one of the great airline CEOs. He, Hauenstein and their team are to be applauded. Unfortunately, for little cheerleaders like you, those stalwarts are long gone (see current cancellation rate).
The classic Tim response. In the face of clear data that proves he’s wrong (while Tim himself never links to anything):
“No need to post any data. Anyone who can see the big picture just knows I’m right”
Plus DL’s growth comes from absorbing two large airlines along with the entire Atlantic division of a third. You’re arguing it’s all organic growth?
lol
feel free to tell me what data is wrong, Mark.
DL has done a better job of growing during deregulation than any US airline.
You simply can't admit that and so you play the copout of the data proves he is wrong.
No, you are both ignorant of real data and wrong because you can't admit what you do know to be true.
and you do realize how large CO was in both TATL and TPAC ops? WTH do you think UA's EWR and IAH hubs came from? You are such a hypocrite.
Tim, since you either didn’t see my other post (unlikely) or saw it but didn’t respond since you don’t have good counterpoints to everything mentioned (likely), here it is again.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-operate-loss-leaders-loyalty-programs/
Tim keeps pointing out “DOT data” that he doesn’t actually link to that “proves” DL makes over a billion more in TPAC than UA. He disregards that there is no uniform way to report profits by region, and that, if DL overperforms UA...
Tim, since you either didn’t see my other post (unlikely) or saw it but didn’t respond since you don’t have good counterpoints to everything mentioned (likely), here it is again.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-operate-loss-leaders-loyalty-programs/
Tim keeps pointing out “DOT data” that he doesn’t actually link to that “proves” DL makes over a billion more in TPAC than UA. He disregards that there is no uniform way to report profits by region, and that, if DL overperforms UA in TPAC by that much, they’re underperforming in other areas.
So I link to last year’s OMAAT story that details how, without the loyalty revenue, and not even excluding refinery benefits, UA outperforms DL in financial performance from airline operations.
So no, people do not pay more to fly DL and they do not compete as well outside of their fortress hubs. Look at the number of stations they have closed, look to how many routes they have cut, especially out of NYC, where UA continues to make strides without even their upcoming JFK schedule.
Look to their failed attempt to grow MIA, look to SEA, where they have barely cracked 20% market share in spite of all the money and effort they have poured into the station, look to LAX, where they have a 2% lead over UA and will never achieve a dominant position, also in spite of all of their efforts.
Look to their A350-1000s, an aircraft to big to meaningfully and profitably advance in TPAC. Look to underperforming TPAC yields, look to RJs being thrown into AUS and LGA. Look to their NYC cuts.
If SEA-NRT is truly DL’s best opportunity to add to their TPAC portfolio, then their challenges are more severe than even I thought.
I know most of us already know, but Tim needs to re-read Ben’s article from last year to see DL might outperform AA, but not UA in terms of profits from airline operations.
Classic Delta, eh? A very conservative, boring, tone deaf choice for a route, most likely inspired by Americans lacking basic skills in areas like geography. It says 'Tokyo' in the name, so doesn't matter if it's 60km east of the actual city proper (how much is that in bald eagles by national anthem singing flags anyway?). It doesn't really make sense otherwise, as the route is already well served by other airlines and there was...
Classic Delta, eh? A very conservative, boring, tone deaf choice for a route, most likely inspired by Americans lacking basic skills in areas like geography. It says 'Tokyo' in the name, so doesn't matter if it's 60km east of the actual city proper (how much is that in bald eagles by national anthem singing flags anyway?). It doesn't really make sense otherwise, as the route is already well served by other airlines and there was a reason why they pulled out of this one some years ago. It also seems a bit contradicting with some of the strategic plans they announced, too. And their flight times do not indicate that this route intended for any connecting traffic at all, which is in a way surprising.
In terms of operations and customer experience, I would choose any of the alternatives over Delta without giving it a second thought. Usually the rest has a better product overall, with Delta not being very consistent in its product delivery. I've ended up a bit too often in a flying garbage can that should have seen an overhaul or even basic cabin maintenance years prior. Plus that I don't want to put any money in the object of sexual desires of the local idiot here.
I really miss the boldness and creativity of United when it comes to picking and opening new routes, like routes to Ulaanbaatar, Greenland and Madeira. Delta really is a company where anything slightly off the beaten path is taboo.
Sorry, but that's the dumbest post thus far on this thread.
NRT has been (and continues to be) the primary international gateway to Tokyo, for the last half-century.
Where is the additional equipment coming from to run LAX-MNL and SEA-NRT
Listen Seattle is a nice place to visit and definitely has some business travel demand...but how many people are actually flying here? I feel like we are probably the most overserved long haul destination in the country
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-operate-loss-leaders-loyalty-programs/
Tim keeps pointing out “DOT data” that he doesn’t actually link to that “proves” DL makes over a billion more in TPAC than UA. He disregards that there is no uniform way to report profits by region, and that, if DL overperforms UA in TPAC by that much, they’re underperforming in other areas.
So I link to last year’s OMAAT story that details how, without the loyalty revenue, and not even excluding refinery...
https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-operate-loss-leaders-loyalty-programs/
Tim keeps pointing out “DOT data” that he doesn’t actually link to that “proves” DL makes over a billion more in TPAC than UA. He disregards that there is no uniform way to report profits by region, and that, if DL overperforms UA in TPAC by that much, they’re underperforming in other areas.
So I link to last year’s OMAAT story that details how, without the loyalty revenue, and not even excluding refinery benefits, UA outperforms DL in financial performance from airline operations.
So no, people do not pay more to fly DL and they do not compete as well outside of their fortress hubs. Look at the number of stations they have closed, look to how many routes they have cut, especially out of NYC, where UA continues to make strides without even their upcoming JFK schedule.
Look to their failed attempt to grow MIA, look to SEA, where they have barely cracked 20% market share in spite of all the money and effort they have poured into the station, look to LAX, where they have a 2% lead over UA and will never achieve a dominant position, also in spite of all of their efforts.
Look to their A350-1000s, an aircraft to big to meaningfully and profitably advance in TPAC. Look to underperforming TPAC yields, look to RJs being thrown into AUS and LGA. Look to their NYC cuts.
If SEA-NRT is truly DL’s best opportunity to add to their TPAC portfolio, then their challenges are more severe than even I thought.
I know most of us already know, but Tim needs to re-read Ben’s article from last year to see DL might outperform AA, but not UA in terms of profits from airline operations.
Long live the FUGU hub!
I am no real fan of DL, but let's see what happens. If DL bleeds money trying to compete with AS, then its dumb, but let them.
Tokyo is a HUGE market (Ben is always directing conversations at connections) but TYO is another London. Not as big, but still massively massive to handle O&D quite well.
DL[NW] knows this market well, and is seeing that KE is not going to roll over and do as...
I am no real fan of DL, but let's see what happens. If DL bleeds money trying to compete with AS, then its dumb, but let them.
Tokyo is a HUGE market (Ben is always directing conversations at connections) but TYO is another London. Not as big, but still massively massive to handle O&D quite well.
DL[NW] knows this market well, and is seeing that KE is not going to roll over and do as ATL says. So they have a new game plane for Asia and Japan...why not? Market and economies change...so airlines MUST change.
I love flying into NRT since its convenient for stations away from Tokyo Main and others....so it works well.
I do not get into arguments or tussles on here about DL. The PR bloom has been off the Delta Rose for a long time...but we should all want them to suceed!
well said.
but DL made $1 billion more on its international system than UA in 2025 and $1.6 billion more than UA systemwide - its closest competitor.
DL clealry has a pretty good track record of figuring out what matters in selecting routes
there are people that are clearly struggling to accept it but DL execs said several months ago that they are committed to growing their TPAC system, in the 2nd quarter, DL grew...
well said.
but DL made $1 billion more on its international system than UA in 2025 and $1.6 billion more than UA systemwide - its closest competitor.
DL clealry has a pretty good track record of figuring out what matters in selecting routes
there are people that are clearly struggling to accept it but DL execs said several months ago that they are committed to growing their TPAC system, in the 2nd quarter, DL grew everything else at 1% but grew TPAC at 8%.
They clearly believe there are lots of routes to add and LAX-MNL and SEA-NRT both are starting before the A350-1000s - of which there will be about 20 delivered in a fairly short 2 years - enter service.
DL is clearly set to change the competitive dynamics over the Pacific and it has the financial strength to do it. UA and AS are both in DL's sites.
DOT’s 2025 Pacific data:
UAL TPAC Op profit: $734.6M Rev: $6.9B ≈10.6% op margin, 1.51c/ASM
DAL TPAC Op profit: $327M Rev: $3.3B ≈ 9.9% op margin, 1.47c/ASM
Q2 ’26 TPAC PRASM YOY UAL/DAL: +14.0%/+7.0%
and yet UA reports net income to the DOT including for its global region and on its bottom line to the SEC
UA's net income for TPAC in 2025 was about $250 million LESS than the number you cited?
Are you that bad w/ math, accounting and logic that you think you can throw out a $1.6 billion difference in net income which was the difference in 2025 between DL and UA?
hypocritically, you...
and yet UA reports net income to the DOT including for its global region and on its bottom line to the SEC
UA's net income for TPAC in 2025 was about $250 million LESS than the number you cited?
Are you that bad w/ math, accounting and logic that you think you can throw out a $1.6 billion difference in net income which was the difference in 2025 between DL and UA?
hypocritically, you have endlessly told us that UA outperformed DL in 1Q2026 because UA did sale/leaseback transactions which boosted income at the expense of the balance sheet while DL did equity re-evaluations which depressed its net income.
Make up your mind, hypocrite.
You get caught in your lies - every. single. time
Projection alert!!!
I tend to stay in Chiba area (Kinshicho) and prefer Narita. It’s less than 15 minutes by train to Tokyo station. Then again I know Tokyo very well and dont find Haneda very convenient
This is interesting on several levels.
Not only does it show DL in SEA has been reduced to copying AS on their routes, ensuring their distant number 2 position will become a "distant and even more underperforming financially number 2" position, but it's also a reflection on their NYC strategy.
This is the second time DL could have added a NYC-Tokyo route but chose not to. They decided to not even apply for NYC-HND...
This is interesting on several levels.
Not only does it show DL in SEA has been reduced to copying AS on their routes, ensuring their distant number 2 position will become a "distant and even more underperforming financially number 2" position, but it's also a reflection on their NYC strategy.
This is the second time DL could have added a NYC-Tokyo route but chose not to. They decided to not even apply for NYC-HND and now they added SEA-NRT instead of NYC-NRT. Their NYC position relative to UA continues to fall.
In NYC, they continue to ignore Tokyo and fall behind UA in NYC-ICN, a route UA is starting.
Additionally, we've all seen DL recently cancel NYC-LGW/BRU/GVA/MUC on the international front.
DL also has recently announced the end of JFK-IAH/MEM/STL.
Seven NYC routes cut for DL while they continue to ignore TYO and ICN.
All while UA prepares to announce their JFK-SFO/LAX schedules, all with premium aircraft.
Yes, their profits are thanks to the refinery, credit card revenue, and fortress hub pricing, but it certainly is not because people pay more to fly them or because their airline operations are more profitable.
all that is interesting is your selective ignorance of facts.
DL flew longhaul international from SEA long before AS decided it was a thing to do. It is AS that has copied DL. you truly believe what you write?
and DL has a history on NYC-Tokyo and decided there were other things worth pursuing.
For all your spouting about how well UA does from NYC, you do realize that UA does not serve JFK...
all that is interesting is your selective ignorance of facts.
DL flew longhaul international from SEA long before AS decided it was a thing to do. It is AS that has copied DL. you truly believe what you write?
and DL has a history on NYC-Tokyo and decided there were other things worth pursuing.
For all your spouting about how well UA does from NYC, you do realize that UA does not serve JFK while DL is adding transcon service from EWR on top of service to its hubs?
and DL has a JV with KE that is far larger than UA right now. And DL will serve JFK-ICN on its own metal and will instantly become larger in the market than UA on just their own metal because the 359 is a larger aircraft than the 789.
and DL is STILL the largest domestic airline from NYC. We could list all of the domestic cities that DL serves from NYC that UA does not.
Feel free to post the schedules when UA starts JFK transcon service. We've been waiting years for the announcement.
as for profits, you are nothing but a sore loser that can't admit that UA also has a credit card agreement that just happens to be inferior to DL's AND AA's - because credit card agreements are far less valuable in international markets.
and UA tried to buy a refinery but failed.
and WTH has UA been doing for the past 48 years of deregulation that they have the lowest metro hub market share of the big 4? DL simply figured out how to make more money in every aspect of its business and you are a whiny cry baby because UA spent a huge chunk of its existence fighting w/ labor and a decade after the UA-CO merger fixated on international markets - and now finds that domestic growth is a whole lot harder and more costly than you and Scotty imagined - but I told you that years ago.
none of this changes that DL has committed to growing its TPAC network; it had just 1% growth on its domestic and TATL network for the 2nd quarter but added 8% TPAC capacity.
There will be a whole lot more announcements like this. Refill that Prozac because you are going to need it.
DL has simply outsmarted its competitors including AS and UA.
AGAIN.
"DL simply figured out how to make more money in every aspect of its business"
Except, you know, the aspect of literally flying planes.
UA EWR-HND 1x/day
UA EWR-NRT 1x/day
DL NYC-TYO 0x/day
But great job DL dominating #15, #16 & #37 GDP metro areas along with that USA-Riyadh ferry flight market.
Tim, are you officially going on the record to say that, since UA has not announced the specifics of the JFK schedule, that they won’t be flying to JFK next year?
And are you equating two domestically-configured aircraft on LAX-EWR on DL to what could be ten JFK departures to SFO and LAX on premium planes with Polaris and premium economy.
And DL’s 8% TPAC growth isn’t as impressive as you think it is,...
Tim, are you officially going on the record to say that, since UA has not announced the specifics of the JFK schedule, that they won’t be flying to JFK next year?
And are you equating two domestically-configured aircraft on LAX-EWR on DL to what could be ten JFK departures to SFO and LAX on premium planes with Polaris and premium economy.
And DL’s 8% TPAC growth isn’t as impressive as you think it is, given the low starting point. As an example, an airlines that does from one flight to two flights would have 100% growth, but that’s not too impressive, is it?
And you made our point when you said DL has better opportunities than NYC-Tokyo (really NYC to anywhere in east Asia). DL doesn’t think connecting two of the biggest business centers in the world is worthwhile? That’s pretty astounding, yet speaks to their knowledge that profits come from refineries, credit card revenue, and fortress hubs, not competing in truly competitive markets, no matter how important.
Timcel really on tilt today. Yowzers!
I see you have decided to lay off the Yowzers button since Ben said he will give the largest recipient of it a gift card.
You have to resort to simple snipes again. Poor you.
get with your dumb sidekick Andy.
You both are hellbent on telling us how UA's huge size is such an advantage but you can't explain how it doesn't translate into more revenue, profits or market cap.
in other...
I see you have decided to lay off the Yowzers button since Ben said he will give the largest recipient of it a gift card.
You have to resort to simple snipes again. Poor you.
get with your dumb sidekick Andy.
You both are hellbent on telling us how UA's huge size is such an advantage but you can't explain how it doesn't translate into more revenue, profits or market cap.
in other words, UA is just an oversized much less efficient airline that DL.
DL is roughly half the size of UA in TPAC and added as much absolute capacity as UA did in the 2nd quarter.
DL isn't announcing winter seasonal routes. It is announcing year round routes in key industry competitive markets. and it is growing TPAC capacity at a faster rate than UA. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
You seriously cling to schedules from JFK for UA that aren't even published but you think that other airlines - including DL - can't announce routes and flights the same year in advance?
Such naivety is cute in a child; it is pathetically sad to see in an adult.
Tim, you didn’t answer the question. No surprise.
Let’s try it another way. If UA announces a schedule of approximately 10 flights from JFK to SFO and LAX with premium-configured aircraft, will you admit that’s more competitive than 2 domestically-configured planes from LAX to EWR, without any SFO-EWR flights at all?
you are beyond naive.
UA hasn't published a schedule from JFK. When it does, then DL can decide what it needs to do.
and you still can't grasp that DL has already made it clear that they are capable of and in the process of growing west coast TPAC and to UA hubs.
If UA thinks that it was going to waltz back into JFK as a purely add to its network, it...
you are beyond naive.
UA hasn't published a schedule from JFK. When it does, then DL can decide what it needs to do.
and you still can't grasp that DL has already made it clear that they are capable of and in the process of growing west coast TPAC and to UA hubs.
If UA thinks that it was going to waltz back into JFK as a purely add to its network, it and you are grossly naive. DL will take a much bigger bite out of UA strength markets.
and you still can't admit that UA will be #4 out of JFK even with a couple dozen transcon flights -which it won't have - because AA, B6 and DL all have major operations at JFK that they are going to protect.
Why do you think that B6 is going to give UA access to B6 largest and most profitable markets? Don't you consider that B6 just strung UA along?
none of which changes that you love to talk about dots on route maps if it is a UA advantage but can't admit that DL is adding a dot where AA, AS and UA all serve both Tokyo airports.
and DL will restart JFK to E. Asia service and it will remove the only strategic advantage UA has from NYC
"you still can't admit that UA will be #4 out of JFK "
Classic LTD straw man. Nobody even thought to see where UA will rank at JFK because it is completely irrelevant. So many voices in your confused head to unscramble.
Oh man, the second potentially loss making Delta route this week. At least there will be a possibiity to reduce the loss aka "thrash yields" to NRT, unlike Riyadh which is doomed.
you can wish that might happen but the evidence is pretty squarely on the side of DL outperforming its competition on profitability.
For 2025, according to DOT data, DL made almost $1 billion more in profits on its international system than UA despite UA's much larger international system. DL's international system provided a higher percentage of profits than DL's international system capacity percentage which means that DL can easily grow its international system - even...
you can wish that might happen but the evidence is pretty squarely on the side of DL outperforming its competition on profitability.
For 2025, according to DOT data, DL made almost $1 billion more in profits on its international system than UA despite UA's much larger international system. DL's international system provided a higher percentage of profits than DL's international system capacity percentage which means that DL can easily grow its international system - even before getting the benefits from a stronger Amex relationship and its cost benefits from the refinery.
UA loses money flying to Latin America. AA loses money flying the Atlantic and the Pacific but makes money flying to Latin America.
DL said it would grow the Pacific - because DL makes better unit profits than UA and the Pacific is UA's one true advantage.
There will be a whole lot more of these types of announcements esp. as the A350-1000s come in at a pretty fast rate - 20 in about 2 years.
this is one of the most fun times to be watching the airline industry in decades. Unlike some of its competitors, DL has a proven track record of playing to win for the long term.
You do realize that DL was the 6th largest US airline in 1978 when the US domestic airline industry was deregulated but is the largest revenue and highest market cap airline in the world and most profitable US airline?
As much as you might hate it, DL has figured out how to win.
If you find ATL-RUH & SEA-NRT fun then you are a glutton for DL punishment. Yikes. You about face on NRT is absurd even by your extremely low standards.
Tim, I know you listened to the episode of the Air Show where they talked about DL’s challenges in TPAC.
One of their challenges is the A350-1000, which they deemed too large for many routes outside of the trunk markets.
They said UA’s 787 fleet is much more suited to the market, allowing large gauge but not so large they have to dilute yields. The 787s also allow UA to test new markets...
Tim, I know you listened to the episode of the Air Show where they talked about DL’s challenges in TPAC.
One of their challenges is the A350-1000, which they deemed too large for many routes outside of the trunk markets.
They said UA’s 787 fleet is much more suited to the market, allowing large gauge but not so large they have to dilute yields. The 787s also allow UA to test new markets like CTS, markets that DL would never dream of trying.
If the A350-1000 is that great, why aren’t they going up to a fleet of 300, the way UA is with the 787s? Why don’t they fly the A350-1000s everywhere?
We all know the answer.
actually, I didn't.
And whatever those 3 think doesn't really change what is happening.
DL is aggressively growing across the Pacific and they could care less if anyone thinks they are at a disadvantage.
do you really live your life by what people think?
Not by what you think. lol
Slightly off topic, I am enjoying the "!! Yowzers!" button. Especially on articles like this.
thank you.
Ben already has bought my $100 gift certificate on my airline of choice - Aeroflot. Don't have to run into Americans flying them these days
I’m sorry, but the war Delta is waging in Seattle is making them lose sight of their most important hub, SLC; that flight to Narita should have been launched from here, given that Northwest used to fly it from here as well.
NW never flew SLC-NRT.
DL used an ex-NW 332, IIRC, but it was fully painted in DL colors
This Tim Dunn character is the Yowzers button personified.
The most Yowzers! thing of all is that he passed a hiring test at Delta, given how poor, irrational, and biased an “analyst” he clearly is.
you can't stand that DL is walking all over AS and UA on TPAC west coast routes.
I am actually loving this new, aggressive DL.
Your opinions of course have minimal to no facts behind them. Hilarious to see Lucky call you out on your 180s every two weeks or so.
Get some help! You don’t seem right in the head. Literally this entire community sees it every 100.000 word postings daily.
again, tell us why DL outperforms UA in profit per ASM over the Pacific.
There are valid reasons and a NRT hub is part of the reason.
The majority of high value Tokyo revenue does go to HND.
Just because a NRT hub as large as UA operates hurts them doesn't mean that NRT has no value at all.
and, again, do you really think you are stopping DL - which is what matters...
again, tell us why DL outperforms UA in profit per ASM over the Pacific.
There are valid reasons and a NRT hub is part of the reason.
The majority of high value Tokyo revenue does go to HND.
Just because a NRT hub as large as UA operates hurts them doesn't mean that NRT has no value at all.
and, again, do you really think you are stopping DL - which is what matters - by incessantly trying to prove me wrong?
DL has made a major commitment to Asia/Pacific growth and has already announced 2 new routes - one from LAX and one from SEA that start next spring.
and SEA-NRT doesn't even require a 359 so they still have more than enough 350s coming in for other growth if they choose to do so.
LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN are just waiting to be announced even before SIN from somewhere.
the only thing that is "minimal" is your and others in influencing DL's growth that will significant rearrange the balance of power over the Pacific - and not in favor of your dearly beloved UA.
"Profit per ASM" is not a metric. lol Look at yield, where UA continues to outperform.
DL's financial performance caused them to shut down KIX, PEK, MNL, SIN, TPE, BKK. Some reopened but others remain closed. UA has continued to grow, even starting NYC-ICN before DL does.
With DL struggle on LAX-HKG, as shown in fare and load factor data, and having their network strategy driven by AS and not their own route ideas, DL's yield will continue to underperform.
Something, something, SEA hub, something, something, Delta dominance. Refinery. Profits. Can weather the storm. Free wifi.
There, saved everyone the trouble.
To be fair, Delta has probably been wanting to add capacity between Seattle and Tokyo for some time. Had they gotten their way with HND slots in 2023, they would almost certainly be double daily on SEA-HND right now.
My initial thought was that this would connect nicely with the Garuda flight to DPS, but the times don't really align at all.
I’d be curious what the load factors are like on AS, JAL, ANA on the SEA-NRT route as well as the DL SEA-HND route. Maybe they were looking to add capacity to Tokyo and it was a mix of wanting to stick it to Alaska, which has been a thoughtful effort for a number of years, and slot availability?
Good questions but note that ANA doesn't fly SEA-NRT. They do fly SEA-HND.
AS LF has been above 80% since the spring and in the 90% during the Summer season so far.
As someone who transits thru NRT at least twice a month (in Biz btw), this has no interest to me.
1st off, their scheduled arrival time in NRT is too late to make any reasonable late afternoon connection to SE Asia, the PI, Guam, etc. Maybe for someone transferring domestically in Japan/
2nd, As a former NW loyalist, DL trashed NW's NRT stronghold (and the well timed connections). You can't put that toothpaste back in the tube.
poor management? i mean i am happy to see them keep squandering their advantage, because i don't want their loyalty approach to catch on (and this seem further proof that it won't lol)
@Ben Schlappig--I agree with your analysis in the original article. However, ALL of DL's service to Japan has onward connectivity issues as DL has no Japanese partner so NRT will not really be different in that regard. For me personally, I will continue to use HND if going to Tokyo. It's a reasonable taxi ride away from the central city; the same cannot be said for NRT, but as other commenters have pointed out, Tokyo...
@Ben Schlappig--I agree with your analysis in the original article. However, ALL of DL's service to Japan has onward connectivity issues as DL has no Japanese partner so NRT will not really be different in that regard. For me personally, I will continue to use HND if going to Tokyo. It's a reasonable taxi ride away from the central city; the same cannot be said for NRT, but as other commenters have pointed out, Tokyo is a huge metro area so it might work for others, depending upon where they are going. Because most fliers on this route are likely to be American tourists, though, much will depend on price. Will the NRT route be cheaper than flying to HND? If so, then the train from NRT to central Tokyo starts looking better. AS and JAL will still have an advantage, though, based on onward connectivity to a lot of domestic Japanese cities as well as the rest of Asia. And, at some point, AS will likely be admitted to the Oneworld TPAC JV, putting more pressure on DL's new route. This will be interesting to watch.
@Tim Dunn--you can't stop talking about the AS-Virgin America buyout as though in the end, AS got nothing out of it. That is just not true. AS got gates at SFO, LAX, and JFK from that merger. It is true that they haven't used those gates for the same routes Virgin flew but they are making money with those assets. I would also point out that your beloved Delta did precisely the same thing when it bought Western Airlines. Western had an extensive network all over the West, which DL largely dismantled after the buyout. Shortly after, one couldn't even fly DL nonstop from SEA to SFO or LAX but that buyout is how DL became so big at SLC initially. However, the biggest asset DL got from that deal was Gerald Grinstein, a Seattle native who had been CEO of Western--and who shortly after the buyout steered Delta out of bankruptcy!
Two things here:
1.) HND serves as an O&D for Delta's network. The same way something like a JFK to FCO works, where the goal is to route people from the US to that end destination. Both FCO and HND are large destinations, but one reasonable would say that FCO needs to have onwards connectivity for it to work in Delta's network.
2.) Delta actually does have onwards connectivity in HND via domestic...
Two things here:
1.) HND serves as an O&D for Delta's network. The same way something like a JFK to FCO works, where the goal is to route people from the US to that end destination. Both FCO and HND are large destinations, but one reasonable would say that FCO needs to have onwards connectivity for it to work in Delta's network.
2.) Delta actually does have onwards connectivity in HND via domestic interline, which they sell fairly aggressively on the Delta website.
"domestic interline"
LMAO! That's cute.
Your substance-less commentary doesn't change the reality of that when you search LAX to ITM/FUK/etc., almost all of the first results that show up are the JL/NH interline flights with Delta metal on LAX to HND.
@Julia--no argument about HND being an O&D destination. However, I just looked on the FlyDelta app for SEA-KIX flights. I only find routings through ICN. I also checked SEA-BKK. On that one, most routings were via ICN but there were 2 shown via HND, using ANA on the HND-BKK leg. So, yes it's available, but for $7,893 in Economy! My dates were in early December of this year. So, I wouldn't exactly call that aggressive...
@Julia--no argument about HND being an O&D destination. However, I just looked on the FlyDelta app for SEA-KIX flights. I only find routings through ICN. I also checked SEA-BKK. On that one, most routings were via ICN but there were 2 shown via HND, using ANA on the HND-BKK leg. So, yes it's available, but for $7,893 in Economy! My dates were in early December of this year. So, I wouldn't exactly call that aggressive marketing. And, there appears to be no way to fly from HND to KIX, arguably Japan's second largest market, on a DL ticket. So, I expect DL has zero onward connectivity within Japan but both AS and JAL do.
Most Haneda to Osaka flights goes to Itami (ITM) instead of Kansai (KIX). Interline itineraries with HND-ITM legs are bookable on DL’s website.
Ah, thanks for that tip. Interestingly, when I went back to the FlyDelta app and plugged in ITM as the destination, it then showed me flights via HND for BOTH ITM and KIX, using both NH and JA for the domestic Japanese leg. Go figure!
first,
DL's US-Japan routes are part of the DL-KE joint venture.
DL is not focused on connecting beyond Japan; that is the purpose of ICN.
and AS is not back to zero compared to pre-Virgin America but they have a much smaller percentage of the pre-Virgin America network than any merger or acquisition in years.
AS' growth has been in SAN where they face a strong WN while they are much less strong...
first,
DL's US-Japan routes are part of the DL-KE joint venture.
DL is not focused on connecting beyond Japan; that is the purpose of ICN.
and AS is not back to zero compared to pre-Virgin America but they have a much smaller percentage of the pre-Virgin America network than any merger or acquisition in years.
AS' growth has been in SAN where they face a strong WN while they are much less strong in LAX and SFO.
And I'm not sure what you think DL has undone w/ the Western merger. DL is the largest airline at LAX, has far more gates now than it had in Terminal 5 which WA rebuilt, and DL has retained a strong hub at SLC and is nearing the end of the rebuild of that terminal. Further, there are a number of cities that WA served only via SLC which DL now serves from multiple other hubs.
and yes Grinstein was DL's bankruptcy hero. Just like the NW merger, DL gained a lot that is still very much ingrained in DL's culture. Since the WA merger was almost 50 years ago, it is more about network than remaining people.
none of which changes that DL does connect onto Japan domestic routes via JL and NH which is exactly what you would expect at HND.
@tTm Dunn--you have missed the point about what DL did immediately after the buyout of Western. Yes, today, they have expanded greatly but they completely exited the highly competitive north-south West Coast market for years after the buyout. They were still very much in regional SE airline mode at that time, from the West flying mostly only to ATL and DFW. Yes, they built up SLC but mostly to funnel east-west traffic. They axed a...
@tTm Dunn--you have missed the point about what DL did immediately after the buyout of Western. Yes, today, they have expanded greatly but they completely exited the highly competitive north-south West Coast market for years after the buyout. They were still very much in regional SE airline mode at that time, from the West flying mostly only to ATL and DFW. Yes, they built up SLC but mostly to funnel east-west traffic. They axed a lot of north-south routes after the buyout. You are likely too young to remember but as I was living in Seattle st the time, I remember it very well. I was initially happy that DL had bought Western as I used to live in the SE and had good memories of Delta's service, but that changed when they started cutting West Coast routes. I didn't want to change at SLC to get to SFO, HNL, and a bunch of other places Western had flown from SEA nonstop before the buyout.
DL managed to outlast Eastern on the west coast, became the largest airline at JFK and LGA, built BOS where it is now the largest airline, and is now the largest airline at LAX.
and it has been flying up and down the west coast from LAX long before it accomplished most of that.
Who cares if you moved on. Plenty of other people do contribute to DL's success at LAX. No company exists...
DL managed to outlast Eastern on the west coast, became the largest airline at JFK and LGA, built BOS where it is now the largest airline, and is now the largest airline at LAX.
and it has been flying up and down the west coast from LAX long before it accomplished most of that.
Who cares if you moved on. Plenty of other people do contribute to DL's success at LAX. No company exists for one person.
and no other airline has succeeded at as much hub building over the past 50 years as DL.
I didn't "move on," Tim. I still fly Delta, AS, and other carriers, based on price, convenience, the availability of nonstops, etc. More importantly, though, what I said was not anecdotal--it was factual and it didn't affect just one person. You seem to have an aversion to facts, which I suspect is why so many people on these forums don't seem to like you. Nice job of trying to deflect, but nobody is buying it....
I didn't "move on," Tim. I still fly Delta, AS, and other carriers, based on price, convenience, the availability of nonstops, etc. More importantly, though, what I said was not anecdotal--it was factual and it didn't affect just one person. You seem to have an aversion to facts, which I suspect is why so many people on these forums don't seem to like you. Nice job of trying to deflect, but nobody is buying it. The next time you think about commenting on how Alaska bought Virgin and then shut it down, think first about Delta's own sordid history with Western Airlines. All companies do what they think works best at the time and DL has since expanded greatly at SEA and the rest of the West Coast but that doesn't change history.
Just for fun, since you mentioned JFK and BOS (I am leaving LGA out of this because of the perimeter rule and no nonstops by either DL or AS from the West Coast), I looked at flight statuses today. From SEA-JFK, both DL and AS have the same number of nonstops (4). To BOS, AS has one more than DL (5 vs. 4). That is a very active "vestige" of the Virgin America acquisition.
good. sounds like you are a free agent which is a good place to be in a competitive market.
I am simply pointing out that DL might have lost lots of passengers but they clearly have regained those and many more.
and you fail to realize that DL is highly strategic and pulled back on the west coast to outlast Eastern, overtake AA in NYC, build a true 3 airport network in NYC with the...
good. sounds like you are a free agent which is a good place to be in a competitive market.
I am simply pointing out that DL might have lost lots of passengers but they clearly have regained those and many more.
and you fail to realize that DL is highly strategic and pulled back on the west coast to outlast Eastern, overtake AA in NYC, build a true 3 airport network in NYC with the largest position at 2 of them, and has become the largest airline at BOS - all while still retaining its position in its "core 4 interior US hubs"
and you truly don't realize that SEA was never Virgin America's hub but AS' ? It says absolutely nothing about the Virgin America merger to tell me how well AS is doing from its own hub that existed long before the Virgin merger.
You can't stand to admit that DL really did use the Western merger to build its presence in the west and is in a stronger position than it has ever been while Alaska really did shutter most of what Virgin America flew from SFO and LAX.
Now you're just being silly, Tim. I said from the beginning of this discussion that AS gained gates and traffic at LAX, SFO, and JFK from the Virgin America buyout. Do you not understand that a city pair requires gates (and sometimes slots) at each end in order to function? Your continual harping on Eastern vs. Delta at ATL is completely irrelevant. It's also hypocritical. When Delta makes a decision to cut a vast route...
Now you're just being silly, Tim. I said from the beginning of this discussion that AS gained gates and traffic at LAX, SFO, and JFK from the Virgin America buyout. Do you not understand that a city pair requires gates (and sometimes slots) at each end in order to function? Your continual harping on Eastern vs. Delta at ATL is completely irrelevant. It's also hypocritical. When Delta makes a decision to cut a vast route network after buying out an airline, it's strategic but when AS decides to do exactly the same thing (but to a much lesser extent) it's somehow wrong or not equally strategic? Or are you suggesting that Delta isn't much competition for AS at SEA so they don't need to concentrate on SEA, much as DL had to concentrate on ATL back in the day? Or are you just cutting Delta a break because AS hasn't yet brought back Virgin's old services at SFO and LAX? They might still do that but I don't think AS's goal is world domination. They have done quite well being the "flag carrier" of the Pacific Northwest. I expect that to continue into the future once the fuel price spike settles down. Personally, I would like to see both DL and AS thrive in Seattle as competition is preferable to a captive hub but it would be silly to think that DL will just walk all over AS here, even on international routes. After 12 years of a Seattle hub, DL's overall market share is still less than half of AS's. And AS continues to grow its international long haul operations at SEA, challenging DL's one area of strength. DL should be very worried.
Simple, its spite. DL and NWA before them have a history of this. Expect they will run it for a year or so before they give up. During that time both they and AS will suffer but DL have deeper pockets.
This also serves to remind other airlines that DL is vengeful and that serves as a deterrent to those considering taking on DL on other routes.
Exactly this. Delta has tried this for years against Alaska and it never works. I guess if they have money to burn…
I personally think it's a bizarre route, but Japan capacity seems to be highly in demand. And this is the only way to increase it.
And with this being said, this shows the constant speculation about Delta abandoning SEA for LAX was clearly wrong. This blog and many other sites parroted that talking point despite there being no actual signs of it.
Yes, Delta can grow LAX without "giving up" on other hubs, it was...
I personally think it's a bizarre route, but Japan capacity seems to be highly in demand. And this is the only way to increase it.
And with this being said, this shows the constant speculation about Delta abandoning SEA for LAX was clearly wrong. This blog and many other sites parroted that talking point despite there being no actual signs of it.
Yes, Delta can grow LAX without "giving up" on other hubs, it was always that simple
Trajectory-wise, all Delta has done over the past few years was add new longhaul routes like TPE, BCN, and FCO, build a new D1 lounge, etc. So it seemed silly to me that people would even think that.
Regardless, I'd be concerned about this new route siphoning demand and diluting Delta's razor thin Japan yields.
This has been a NWA strategy for years. If someone adds a route, you add it plus (sort of hard to do for international, but they would always match it). DL loses money at SEATAC and with Alaska's new found size, this is going to be good money thrown after bad. With Alaska and OneWorld controlling over 60% of the flights, this is a bad move by DL. I give it a year, maybe two but this route will eventually be cut. . .it's what they do.
feel free to provide the data to show DL loses money at SEA
and, even if it does, why can't you and everyone else that trots out that claim admit that DL has done what no other US airline has done which is to build more hubs in other airline strength markets and still lead the US industry in profits?
What has every other airline including AS been doing for the past 48 years of...
feel free to provide the data to show DL loses money at SEA
and, even if it does, why can't you and everyone else that trots out that claim admit that DL has done what no other US airline has done which is to build more hubs in other airline strength markets and still lead the US industry in profits?
What has every other airline including AS been doing for the past 48 years of deregulation, including for AS to just decide a couple years ago that they wanted to fly longhaul international and the only way to do it fast was to buy money-losing HA?
LTD says, "feel free to provide the data to show DL loses money at SEA"
Cirium data shows that for the last four quarters Delta's SEA hub domestic stage-length adjusted unit revenue is 15% below system average and 2.5% below DL's 2nd worst performing hub, SLC. Yikes!
It's very different to say they aren't making as much as you think they should vs. they are losing money. Low yields, yields less than at captive hubs (duh!), etc., are still positive yields. That is, they are making money.
SFM, Have you ever heard DL execs say that all their hubs are profitable?
DL doesn't talk about the profitability of its hubs because that is not publicly available information to confirm or deny.
At best, talking about hub profitability would be just hot air from execs.
and some of you still can't grasp that even if DL loses a boatload of money at SEA, they clearly make more than enough money to "play" in SEA and still be profitable.
The question which none of you want to...
DL doesn't talk about the profitability of its hubs because that is not publicly available information to confirm or deny.
At best, talking about hub profitability would be just hot air from execs.
and some of you still can't grasp that even if DL loses a boatload of money at SEA, they clearly make more than enough money to "play" in SEA and still be profitable.
The question which none of you want to answer is what every other airline - including AS - has been doing for the last 48 years of deregulation that they have not managed to build a network as profitable as DL has.
Again, AS decided just a couple years ago that they wanted to fly longhaul international and bought money-losing HA to get them down the path of longhaul international.
DL was in longhaul international out of SEA long before AS showed up.
If the arguments are that DL underperforms domestically at SEA - but clearly can afford to do so - then the question has to be raised about how well AS is doing on its international routes from SEA and whether they can afford to get into competitive battles.
There isn't confirmed data but anecdotally - which has to be viewed very carefully - is that AS is getting lower average fares than DL on the international routes they fly.
AS execs said that NRT is making money for them which could well mean that there is room in the market for more capacity.
And AS does not have the financial strength to engage in competitive battles as DL does; AS is losing money and they haven't even come up w/ joint labor agreements.
LTD says, "The question which none of you want to answer is what every other airline - including AS - has been doing for the last 48 years of deregulation that they have not managed to build a network as profitable as DL has."
As if Delta has prospered for the last 48 years and is not slipping mightily of late. Of all your ridiculous talking points this might be the oddest. Poor LTD.
“ DL doesn't talk about the profitability of its hubs because that is not publicly available information to confirm or deny.”
Tim
Thanks for confirming that you’ve never read a delta investor day doc.
And also confirming that you don’t know how to read what I write, don’t read it, or that your memory is just shot.
I’ve shared specific page numbers with you from investor days about delta’s own statements on...
“ DL doesn't talk about the profitability of its hubs because that is not publicly available information to confirm or deny.”
Tim
Thanks for confirming that you’ve never read a delta investor day doc.
And also confirming that you don’t know how to read what I write, don’t read it, or that your memory is just shot.
I’ve shared specific page numbers with you from investor days about delta’s own statements on their hub profitability. Delta absolutely does talk about the profitability of their hubs.
They’ve never once said Seattle is profitable.
Actually
Dogmatic statements are your domain, tim.
The better statement from me is that I have yet to see where delta has publicly said the seattle hub is profitable. Which they have said about their core hubs and said mid teens about the NYC hub when it crossed the threshold of profitability
and you make the dumb-au8o assumption that because a company doesn't talk about what is profitable and what is not that SEA is not?
Talk about believing what you want to believe - regardless of the facts.
and DL said - several years ago - that the majority of its profits come from ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.
you know what? We can narrow that list down even further and say that DL operates the...
and you make the dumb-au8o assumption that because a company doesn't talk about what is profitable and what is not that SEA is not?
Talk about believing what you want to believe - regardless of the facts.
and DL said - several years ago - that the majority of its profits come from ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.
you know what? We can narrow that list down even further and say that DL operates the most profitable hub in the US at ATL and it probably makes more than half of DL's profits.
Doesn't mean that SEA doesn't make money for them - even if it is a lower percentage.
and you still can't explain what every other airline managed to do for the past 48 years of deregulation that they haven't figured out how to build an airline as profitable as DL.
Not as large but as profitable.
Any time that any one of you would like to answer that question, we will be all ears.
It's obvious from the Cirium data and DL management's defining silence that DL's SEA hub isn't profitable.
The answer is easy. HND is much more difficult to obtain slots for so the only place you can add is NRT. Just as it's difficult to obtain LHR slots so many airlines fly to LGW instead.
Except DL canceled the LGW route after the competition pulled out, so they weren’t really looking to grow London traffic.
They also don't need to since they have Virgin in London
How times have changed in just two weeks.
TD said, “holding onto NRT flights only hurts UA’s profitability even as UA touts its size.”
you also failed to note - which I repeated here as I did in your response on Gary's site- that the Fed just intervened in the Yen making it unlikely that there will be a swing in the USD/JPY rate.
and you also fail to note that UA tried to swap its own IAH flight to HND but the DOT rejected it and yet UA is upgrading IAH-NRT to its new high J 789.
...
you also failed to note - which I repeated here as I did in your response on Gary's site- that the Fed just intervened in the Yen making it unlikely that there will be a swing in the USD/JPY rate.
and you also fail to note that UA tried to swap its own IAH flight to HND but the DOT rejected it and yet UA is upgrading IAH-NRT to its new high J 789.
The economics of US-Japan traffic are changing but HND is still by far the preferred airport.
that doesn't mean that NRT is looking better than it did in the past
It's the yen! Of course. Then I guess UA is going to make out like a bandit, right?
I’m going to push back on Narita not being good for local traffic, there are vast swathes of Tokyo that are easier to get to from Narita on transit. Remember greater Tokyo is 37 million people big. And capacity is capacity, it’s a very popular market from the US, sure yields will be lower than a Haneda flight. Maybe you could even see this as something like a points hotel - get people burning their...
I’m going to push back on Narita not being good for local traffic, there are vast swathes of Tokyo that are easier to get to from Narita on transit. Remember greater Tokyo is 37 million people big. And capacity is capacity, it’s a very popular market from the US, sure yields will be lower than a Haneda flight. Maybe you could even see this as something like a points hotel - get people burning their sly pesos on this route because it looks cheaper than the Haneda options.
Also from a corporate perspective AWS has 3 Data Centres in Chiba, Google has one too and there is so much data centre building activity in Chiba and Saitama there maybe some corp demand for people who want to land on that side of town.
Are you Ed Bastian ?!
But will the customers near NRT choose DL, more specifically high yield customers?
My two cents: Japan is the new Europe - destination traffic next summer is likely only going to increase. Most people don’t bother looking which airport is closer, so if these fares are slightly less people will likely book.
I personally have near zero interest in most of Japan during the summer. Just unbearably humid. It's a Fall/Winter/Spring destination
Good thing you are speaking for millions of travelers.
Guess you enjoy heat strokes and melting on the sidewalk during a Japanese summer.
Only dumb people go Japan in the summer and then they regret it instantly when they go outside of the airport.
If you go get one of those jackets the outdoor workers use that have built in fans and use an umbrella to protect from the sun, a portable small fan, one of those thing you put around your neck that you put in the freezer before you use it and drink a lot of pocari sweat.
Northern Japan, Hokkaido Island, is great in the summer.
Why did Delta decide to do this? For spite.
There's no solid business reasoning behind this, it leads nowhere for them strategically. It's only to screw Alaska over. All the more reason for northwesterners to support Seattle's hometown airline and continue to shun the interloper.
you mean you just are incapable of looking at the facts that support a business case for adding more capacity to Tokyo
DL hasn't existed with a SEA hub for a decade because PNW's have been blindly loyal to AS
But DL has remained a distant number 2, in spite of all efforts to make it primary west coast hub, which they’re now giving up to create a split west coast operation.
LTD says, "you just are incapable of looking at the facts that support a business case for adding more capacity to Tokyo...DL hasn't existed with a SEA hub for a decade because PNW's have been blindly loyal to AS"
Cirium data shows that for the last four quarters Delta's SEA hub domestic stage-length adjusted unit revenue is 15% below system average and 2.5% below DL's 2nd worst performing hub, SLC. Yikes!
As one of the residents in PNW, we've been loyal to AS because their domestic network out of SEA/PDX is just unbeatable.. Good luck finding a Delta flight from SEA to regional airports like SBP or BIL, ACV, etc. AS flies to almost all the possible airports in the West. Of course, regional flights don't make much profit as you always claim, but it helps build a loyal customer base.
not mentioned is that the Yen is at multi-decade lows which means that, while tourism to the US from Japan is low, it is exploding to Japan from the US. DL and no other airline can a single route to HND from the US; DL undoubtedly would like to add another HND route or two and probably dump HNL-HND. Part of the reason AS/HA is suffering financially is because very little of their Hawaii-Asia flights...
not mentioned is that the Yen is at multi-decade lows which means that, while tourism to the US from Japan is low, it is exploding to Japan from the US. DL and no other airline can a single route to HND from the US; DL undoubtedly would like to add another HND route or two and probably dump HNL-HND. Part of the reason AS/HA is suffering financially is because very little of their Hawaii-Asia flights work and they have lots of capacity flyiing HNL-Tokyo.
AS would also love to add SEA-HND which DL and NH flies.
If there is a message to be sent, it might be for the US and Japan to either add more HND frequencies or let DL move its HNL-HND frequency.
As for any "message" to AS, it is AS that decided, well after DL built its SEA hub, that AS wanted to get into the longhaul international market - and it did so at the same time that it decided it also needed HA's operation which was and still is losing money. Just as with the Virgin America merger, it is very possible that AS has bitten off more than it can chew.
DL has the financial strength to do what is best for DL at the expense of competitors. It has done it for 20 years in NYC and BOS against AA and B6, at LAX against AA and now UA, and AS and DL have had on and off aggression against each other; AS' weakened financial position just means DL might have the upper hand and intends to use it.
As for NRT itself, DL still has a maintenance operation there and they might rotate the 339s through there as other mods which DL NRT maintenance has done wind up.
Competition is good. except when you are on the receiving end of it.
@ Tim Dunn -- It's just so funny to me how up until *this exact moment* (and I can show the "receipts") you talk about how Narita is all about connecting traffic, the premium traffic goes to Haneda, Alaska flying to Narita out of Seattle instead of Honolulu won't solve things, United is stupid for how much service it has at its "failing" Narita mini-hub, etc.
But the second Delta does it, suddenly it makes...
@ Tim Dunn -- It's just so funny to me how up until *this exact moment* (and I can show the "receipts") you talk about how Narita is all about connecting traffic, the premium traffic goes to Haneda, Alaska flying to Narita out of Seattle instead of Honolulu won't solve things, United is stupid for how much service it has at its "failing" Narita mini-hub, etc.
But the second Delta does it, suddenly it makes sense because there's no room to grow at Haneda, and US tourism to Japan is so strong.
A surprising take? No, of course not. But still...
All for more competition, Tim. Would love to see D1 on this route go for under 500K, not 1 million SkyPesos, each way. Like, a promo of 85K would have me on the next flight to SEA to try it out...
Anyway, as to the yen, yes, it is now a good time to visit Japan, but, at the same time, if you love the food, culture, Shinkansen, Sakura, etc., all times are good times to visit Japan.
As to why Delta is *really* doing this... *rolls dice*
1990 gets it, Ben not so much.
Of course, I have repeatedly said that NRT is about connecting traffic while premium revenue goes to HND.
and yet Tokyo is a divided market because of the US-Japan bilateral which does not allow DL or anyone else to expand at HND. If DL wants to expand its service to Japan, which UA just did with ORD-NRT service and AA did by taking over ORD-NRT - likely because...
1990 gets it, Ben not so much.
Of course, I have repeatedly said that NRT is about connecting traffic while premium revenue goes to HND.
and yet Tokyo is a divided market because of the US-Japan bilateral which does not allow DL or anyone else to expand at HND. If DL wants to expand its service to Japan, which UA just did with ORD-NRT service and AA did by taking over ORD-NRT - likely because this is a US point of sale route - then adding DL service to NRT makes sense.
All of that can be true AND DL looks for an opportunity to cut off AS' international growth. You live in a binary world, Ben, in which two truths can't be true at the same time.
And you still have to ask the question of what everyone else has been doing for the past 48 years of deregulation - AS included - that they JUST decided to add longhaul international service and did it by buying HA which is still losing money.
If DL can generate the US industry's highest profit and still light some money on fire at SEA, why don't other airlines have the profit centers that DL has.
competition IS good. DL is certain to have a valid business case to start SEA-NRT; they know full well they are the 800 lb gorilla.
Doesn't matter how much aviation social media thinks DL is the big bad a89, DL undoubtedly does have a business case for adding NRT flights now - which may or may not stick around for a couple more years
AS may or may not be able to sustain years and years more of losses before they decided - like they did for 46 years of deregulation - that being a PNW and west coast heavy airline is not the worlst thing in the world. Let's not forget that it was less than 5 years after the Virgin America acquisition that AS dismantled most of what it gained.
Pepperidge Farms remembers. and so does DL.
@ Tim Dunn -- "You clearly know that I meant to say that DL doesn't NRT which is where the trash yields to Tokyo are."
"just a reminder that flights to NRT get 25% less revenue than comparable flights to HND."
Is there anything more expensive than reopening an overseas station for one flight? Yikes!
It seems like DL is struggling to find new profitable international destinations.
TD contradicting himself and making nonsensical arguments? Say it ain’t so, Lucky!
again, ben, not sure what you are trying to prove. The economics of a NRT hub are worse than any other metro where there is only one main airport.
Tokyo demand from the US is stronger than it has been for years - but that doesn't mean that a NRT hub makes sense over other options.
and rebel can't grasp that DL staffs most of its international stations with contractors as most airlines do....
again, ben, not sure what you are trying to prove. The economics of a NRT hub are worse than any other metro where there is only one main airport.
Tokyo demand from the US is stronger than it has been for years - but that doesn't mean that a NRT hub makes sense over other options.
and rebel can't grasp that DL staffs most of its international stations with contractors as most airlines do. DL took a charge years ago to close NRT and some of those people might go back in a supervisory role but opening NRT as a new station is no harder or easier than opening HKG.
Btw, rebel, did you note the date when DL boarded over 1 million pounds of cargo on LAX-HKG? THey are now coming up on 2 million pounds of cargo.
Nothing like new, outsourced employees to deliver premium service after giving other outsourced employees pink slips and severance a few years back. It's seems DL's TPAC strategy is akin to a yoyo.
Didn't the US government just announce they are going to help Japan to raise the value of the yen, so one would expect the yen to rise by the time people get on this flight.
Also as Ben said, you've said it everywhere many times over that Narita is terrible and that UA is making a mistake flying to it. You even made jokes about UA launching their ORD-NRT service and here is DL copying...
Didn't the US government just announce they are going to help Japan to raise the value of the yen, so one would expect the yen to rise by the time people get on this flight.
Also as Ben said, you've said it everywhere many times over that Narita is terrible and that UA is making a mistake flying to it. You even made jokes about UA launching their ORD-NRT service and here is DL copying UA and you say its a great idea. Tim, you really just make no sense. Your hypocrisy is wild.
While a premium and visionary airline like United looks to open up newer Asian markets, retrograde Delta dumps capacity on a route nobody needs or asks for (with a dated aircraft to boot).
YOWZERS!!!
you, as usual, can't even get the facts right
DL's 339 fleet is far younger than UA's 787 fleet.
It is precisely because of the weakness of the Japanese yen that NRT is doing better than pre-covid; it very well could be a profitable market for AA, AS and UA so there is no reason why DL shouldn't also add capacity there.
Tim, that's inaccurate. While Delta's a339 sub-fleet is indeed very young, it is not "far younger" than UA's 787 Dreamliner fleet. In fact, they are roughly comparable in age. DL's 339s are an average age of 3-to-5 years; whereas, UA's 787 average age is 6 to 8 years. 5 vs. 6 is not "far".
Yes, UA's 787 fleet is on average over 7 years old compared to DL's 339 fleet which is on average just over 3 years old.
It will take years of 0 339 deliveries to DL and lots of 787 deliveries to UA for parity to come but that is not anywhere near the case now.
Double plus is not equal close to parity
If we were taking the average of those ranges, it'd be 4 vs. 7 years (3 years difference), and yet, still, not that different, in terms of relative commercial aircraft age. If we were talking 1 year old vs. 30, ok, that's big. I just think you can focus on the topic at hand instead of whining about United's fleet age, when it isn't really the 'win' for Delta that you think it is.
And, I'm fully aware of how 'insane' it is for me, of all people, to say, please 'stay focused' on the topic at hand, because, well *gestures broadly* I love me some good ole nonsense on here, ere day, all day. Keep stirring the pot, sir!
Which interior will these aircraft have?
DAL Int'l J-class seats
Safran Cirrus I: A332s & A333s
Thompson Vantage: B767s Thompson
Vantage XL: A339s, A350s
Thompson Aero Vantage NOVA?: A35Xs (2027?)
78Xs (2031): ?
Airlines launching seemingly nonsensical routes to "get back at a competitor" has been around since the end of deregulation. Does it make financial sense? Probably not. Maybe in an overall sense like having money losing routes that bring in more valuable flyers.
I thought we were in-favor of the 'free market' and 'healthy competition,' not monopolies or regulatory capture, etc. So, as Ken Watanabe says in Godzilla (2014): "The arrogance of man is thinking nature is in our control, and not the other way around. Let them fight." I say, let Delta and Alaska fight!
I guess Delta is trying to bring back the glory days when Northwest Orient was main US carrier to Northern Asia. Have flown the route from Narita to Detriot on a NW 747.
Come on Lucky. How can you even say or think that? This is Delta! It is the most premium U.S. airline and most profitable U.S. airline. Apparently that is all you need so of course passengers would fill up those seats months in advance with cash reservations and you may not even be able to snag an award seat for your review. Delta can make just about anything work. It is the Midas of the...
Come on Lucky. How can you even say or think that? This is Delta! It is the most premium U.S. airline and most profitable U.S. airline. Apparently that is all you need so of course passengers would fill up those seats months in advance with cash reservations and you may not even be able to snag an award seat for your review. Delta can make just about anything work. It is the Midas of the airlines. Who would choose to fly JAL over Delta on this route? I am sure most would concur with me on that. I would rather sit in a Delta One seat than in a Sky Suite. Delta One is even better than JAL’s SUITE. You can get much better service and dining with DL than you ever could with JL. It is a well known fact. NOT!!! Haha! Not in a million years times a million could DL ever beat JL where it counts for passengers. Couldn’t care less about airline profits as a passenger as long as the seat and service are good.
The route is intended to spite Alaska. No other reason. It’s simply flooding the market with additional capacity to put additional pressure on Alaska. Delta has already lost the TPA war. Now they are just swinging wildly as you do when you are losing.
Delta's SEA-HND route averaged 89.5% LF in 2025 according to the US bureau of transportation. HND is nearly impossible to get slots for, so the only way to grow would be adding NRT.
Unrelated: @Ben, the Ask the Community section needs a button to report content. There's already scammers posting fake airline phone numbers, etc.
@ hbilbao -- Thanks, we're working on that! We're currently optimizing the spam filters on that to prevent this from happening in the future, so it should hopefully get much better in the near future. My apologies.
at first I wondered if there was a chance that Delta could be launching service from JFK to HND, to which they would need a slot freed up (which could be an explanation for this service).
But then it didn’t add up. If they wanted a Haneda slot, they could try to get Honolulu switched to JFK and move Honolulu to Narita?
Seattle is a hub and has more corporate traffic presumably than HNL, so my theory doesn’t pan out.
And Delta would need 350 for JFK…
@ Sharon -- Yeah, and rather oddly when Delta had good odds of getting a JFK to HND slot if desired, the airline had no interest, and American got it instead (even though Delta has a much stronger presence at JFK).
Well, Delta would need an a350 base at JFK, or to have to shuttle them in from DTW or ATL, triangulating from elsewhere, etc. For now, just some (ancient) 767s and 330s (ok, fine, a few of them have refurbished interiors, and the 339 has newer D1 Suites.) So, Europe and a little of S. America is all for now from NYC for DL. Would love it if they brought the a350, started NYC-HND, DEL, BOM, CPT, and more.
the PDX slot was awarded during covid; the Yen didn't start its historic post covid decline until after DL made the decision to relinquish PDX-HND.
and DL did try to swap PDX-HND for something else and drop or swap out of HNL-HND but the DOT said DL couldn't drop anything.
AA made the decision to add JFK-HND AFTER DL made its decision.
and let's also remember that AA stilll consistently loses money flying the...
the PDX slot was awarded during covid; the Yen didn't start its historic post covid decline until after DL made the decision to relinquish PDX-HND.
and DL did try to swap PDX-HND for something else and drop or swap out of HNL-HND but the DOT said DL couldn't drop anything.
AA made the decision to add JFK-HND AFTER DL made its decision.
and let's also remember that AA stilll consistently loses money flying the Pacific; whether the addition of JFK-HND helped or not is unknown but something is a serious loser for them that they can't fix.
I think it's a brilliant competitive response to AS and UA.
1. Serving NRT is the only way DL can INCREASE service to Tokyo since there are no HND slots available.
2. DL now competes head on w/ AS on SEA-NRT/ICN/LHR/FCO.
3. Reopening NRT gives DL the infrastructure to copy UA by adding some tag on flights beyond Tokyo
@ BeachBoy -- But what's the benefit of competing head-to-head against Alaska? To try to get them to backtrack on their long haul growth, or what? Alaska has the advantage over Delta in Seattle in terms of connectivity and the local customer base.
Regarding reopening Narita giving Delta the infrastructure to copy United, that's simply not going to happen, in my opinion. Creating a mini-hub there will require a massive number of flights from the...
@ BeachBoy -- But what's the benefit of competing head-to-head against Alaska? To try to get them to backtrack on their long haul growth, or what? Alaska has the advantage over Delta in Seattle in terms of connectivity and the local customer base.
Regarding reopening Narita giving Delta the infrastructure to copy United, that's simply not going to happen, in my opinion. Creating a mini-hub there will require a massive number of flights from the United States to Narita, and I can't imagine that's in the cards for Delta, given its Incheon presence.
The benefit of competing head-to-head against Alaska is to make all their long haul flying out of SEA unprofitable.
I don't think they will completely copy UA at NRT, but they will probably lose less money flying SEA/LAX-NRT-SGN vs. SEA/LAX-SGN nonstop.
Does Delta still fly to asia beyond ICN? I remember they were doing it for awhile a few years ago because they had 5th freedom to a country that KE didn't.
May be there is excess a330s and the route can turn around in 24 hours?
Desperation and a failing TPAC strategy.
Yes, an 89.5% load factor on SEA-HND in 2025 is failing. LAX 87.8% as well.
NRT is premium
Well... I think it's just trying to compete with Alaska afrer demand between Tokyo - Seattle increased.
Tokyo Haneda slot is limited because of USA banning non-military planes crossing near Yokota US Force&JASDF(?) air base(Western Tokyo). Japanese government is trying to expand Tokyo Narita as 3 rwys and redevelop 3 terminals into 1 big terminal with 70M passenger/year because of this, and JAL, ANA, United, Delta are all resuming Narita routes because of Yokota...
Well... I think it's just trying to compete with Alaska afrer demand between Tokyo - Seattle increased.
Tokyo Haneda slot is limited because of USA banning non-military planes crossing near Yokota US Force&JASDF(?) air base(Western Tokyo). Japanese government is trying to expand Tokyo Narita as 3 rwys and redevelop 3 terminals into 1 big terminal with 70M passenger/year because of this, and JAL, ANA, United, Delta are all resuming Narita routes because of Yokota issue and Narita expansion.
United already flies to 11 destinations from Narita. They have a well established network from the airport unlike Delta whose Seattle/Tacoma route will be the first route.
Let's see if our brain dead Delta chatterbox tells us why.
Tim will then tell us why Delta is so amazing and maybe why he was fired?
!! Yowzers
What an insightful and meaningful addition to the conversation.
I'm hardly a Tim Dunn apologist, but we don't need the insults either.
Tim is NEVER going to tell why he was fired.
Yowzers! Seems like a ploy to make Alaska bleed…
Rumours are there that Delta is bleeding money on the Los Angeles - Hong Kong route. But they are acting like they are doing better than Cathay and United.
" But they are acting like they are doing better than Cathay and United."
It's really not that hard to do better than United, as until 2Q26 (according to Cirium), LAX-HKG was the second lowest yielding long-haul route in United's entire system (IAH-SYD being the worst).
It's started to improve, and one of their executives outright said that the additional Bangkok and HCMC tags have helped. But it's still trash yield, and Cathay leaves them both in the dust.
Is that a good or a bad “Yowzers!”…? Sorry, we collectively haven’t really decided on that yet. Kinda need to clarify each time.
Ben, may we add an “Oof…” button for acknowledging negative hot-takes? And a “Bah!” button for guffaws and giggles?