WestJet is expanding service to Asia. In April 2023, the airline added a route to Tokyo, and now the airline is adding service to Seoul. While WestJet first announced this route several weeks back, tickets are now on sale, so I wanted to go over all the details, for those who may be interested in booking.
In this post:
WestJet will fly from Calgary to Seoul as of May 2024
WestJet has announced plans to launch service to South Korea. Specifically, as of May 17, 2024, the airline will fly 3x weekly between Calgary (YYC) and Seoul Incheon (ICN). The flight will operate with the following schedule:
WS86 Calgary to Seoul Incheon departing 5:55PM arriving 8:45PM (+1 day)
WS87 Seoul Incheon to Calgary departing 10:45PM arriving 6:15PM
The 5,321-mile flight is blocked at 11hr50min to South Korea, and 10hr30min to Canada. The westbound flights will operate on Mondays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, while the eastbound flights will operate on Tuesdays, Fridays, and Sundays.
The airline will use a Boeing 787-9 for the route, featuring 320 seats. This includes 16 business class seats, 28 premium economy seats, and 276 economy class seats.
For context, this Asia expansion out of Calgary follows WestJet recently going all-in on Alberta, promising to significantly expand its presence at Calgary Airport. This is thanks to a new partnership with the government of Alberta.
Here’s how John Weatherill, WestJet’s Chief Commercial Officer, describes this new service:
“It is with great pleasure that WestJet will serve as Alberta’s only direct link to South Korea, furthering our 787 global connectivity from our home city of Calgary. Beyond creating greater two-way tourism opportunities, WestJet service between Seoul and Calgary will increase connectivity between Western Canada and Asia generating unique business and cargo opportunities. We saw tremendous success with the launch of service to Asia last summer and anticipate our entry into Seoul will be warmly welcomed by Canadians.”
Also as of the summer of 2024, WestJet will be increasing its Calgary to Tokyo service from 3x weekly to daily, so that seems to be a success. This expanded service to Asia complements WestJet’s other Boeing 787 flights for this coming summer, which are to Europe.
It’s nice to see WestJet expanding in Asia
As I always say, Canadian aviation is complicated. Canada is huge and sparsely populated, and Air Canada is Canada’s only “true” global airline. Then you have a growing number of ultra low cost carriers, which are operating point-to-point routes in Canada’s biggest markets, putting downward pressure on fares. And then you have Porter, which is growing its service across Canada with a more full service model.
That puts WestJet in a tough position, as there’s a ton of competition. I think that’s why it’s logical that the airline doubles down on Calgary, since it’s a market where WestJet has significant market share.
WestJet has a small Boeing 787 fleet, as the airline flies just seven of these jets (the airline was initially considering a bigger Dreamliner fleet, but decided not to exercise options), so the airline has to be intentional with its long haul service.
I was skeptical when WestJet announced it would fly to Tokyo. While the airline would be the only carrier to operate that point-to-point route, with connections, the airline is going up against some major competition. However, WestJet seems to be doing well in the market, and will even be expanding service in the coming months.
In the summer of 2024, WestJet will exclusively be basing its Boeing 787s out of Calgary, flying to Tokyo and Seoul in Asia, and to Barcelona, Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Paris, and Rome, in Europe. The carrier’s evolution is that it’s flying long haul exclusively out of Calgary, rather than trying to compete out of Toronto, and I’d say that’s logical.
Bottom line
WestJet will be expanding its Asia service in the summer of 2024. The airline will launch 3x weekly flights between Calgary and Seoul Incheon, in addition to expanding Calgary to Tokyo Narita flights to daily. Given how small the carrier’s 787 fleet is, it’s fascinating to see the increasing service to Asia.
What do you make of WestJet’s Calgary to Seoul Incheon route, and the carrier’s general Asia expansion?
As someone in Vancouver, I would not fly east to go west. Similarly, stopping in Calgary to go to Europe is not logical for me. I am disappointed WJ retreated from YVR.
How do you expect WestJet to compete in YVR? Their main hub is YYC, so all of their traffic is already there, that's where they have their flagship lounge as well.
YVR is an actual global hub. AC alone has dozens of international flights and almost all of the major Asian carriers fly to YVR.
Are Canadian airlines allowed to overfly Russia or is this image just a sample and not the actual intended routing?
The image is just the typical Great Circle Route. The actual flight plan would take you down the Japanese coast before making its way to ICN.
Clearly the focus is on Asian tourist markets now that travel is ramping up from Asia.
Banff/Lake Louise are the reasons that Mapleflot used too run Nonstops from Calgary to Tokyo
let's also not forget that WestJet has strengthened its position in western Canada while pulling back in eastern Canada while AC is doing the opposite outside of YVR.
No one expects that WS will grow anywhere in size in international markets comparable to AC but they do have a nice little geographic niche, are more focused strategically than they have been for years, and are deepening their relationships with Skyteam partners, all of which...
let's also not forget that WestJet has strengthened its position in western Canada while pulling back in eastern Canada while AC is doing the opposite outside of YVR.
No one expects that WS will grow anywhere in size in international markets comparable to AC but they do have a nice little geographic niche, are more focused strategically than they have been for years, and are deepening their relationships with Skyteam partners, all of which provide a decent basis for building YYC
Not true, Air Canada operated Calgary - Tokyo to retain the landing slot in Tokyo.
Those departures and arrivals seem ideal for coping with jetlag. Bravo, Westjet!
A good night’s sleep, a hotel breakfast and those connecting flights are MUCH more pleasant.
ICN is in addition to other routes. DUB and BCN are still there. Only LGW was dropped. Still a lot of TATL for 7 frames Ben (DUB, BCN, CDG, LHR, EDI, FCO).
Especially when a frame goes tech.
I'm curious if we can see a Canadian carrier in MNL to serve the large Filipino diaspora in Canada, or is that too farfetched?
Unlikely, PAL has daily service to YVR and a partnership with westjet to connect the remaining way. Also, a Canadian carrier will have canadian labor costs, not filipino labor costs.
Just an FYI, but Air Canada has applied for slots in MNL from YVR. While that doesn't necessarily mean that they will launch flights anytime soon, I figured I let you know nonetheless.
Arriving Incheon at 8:45PM means there is only one connection possible - KE647 to Singapore at 11:10PM. Else you have to wait almost 10 hours to catch flights on next morning - so Korean Air would be pretty useless for connection to Greater China/ Southeast Asia, at least for outbound Canadian.
At Narita, WestJet arrives 4PM so variety of onward flights to Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asia are available.
The time is strange. There's not much to connect to, if you're flying through. If you're going to Seoul (I speak from experience), ideally you arrive at your final destination around dinnertime, have a decent meal, and go to sleep. Yes, you can find all sorts of good food at any hour in Seoul, but this schedule means you're staying awake far longer than is ideal.
By the time you get off the plane and to Seoul it might be close to 11PM
ICN is quite congested now, so it looks like WestJet couldn't get the ideal time slot.
WestJet has potential on the US East Coast to Asia market. I often fly on AC from the US via YYZ to Asia, as they offer competitive pricing. I think AC has difficulty filling all their capacity to Asia with just Canadian travelers alone, so that's why they offer such good pricing for US pax. Of my last 5 flights from the US to Asia, 4 were on AC via YYZ or YUL because AC...
WestJet has potential on the US East Coast to Asia market. I often fly on AC from the US via YYZ to Asia, as they offer competitive pricing. I think AC has difficulty filling all their capacity to Asia with just Canadian travelers alone, so that's why they offer such good pricing for US pax. Of my last 5 flights from the US to Asia, 4 were on AC via YYZ or YUL because AC had the best business class pricing.
I see WestJest has direct flights from ATL, JFK year-round, and BOS, IAD seasonal. I wonder if the new flight to Asia is timed to work well with those connecting to the US.
WS might as well start FF with KE and join SkyTeam at this point… anyone knows why they haven’t done so yet?
"It’s interesting that unlike in the summer of 2023, WestJet won’t operate from Calgary to places like Barcelona and Dublin, instead focusing on Asia. That certainly counters the North America airline trend in general. While Asia is a hot destination, Europe in summer is even hotter. I have to imagine that cargo somehow also factors into this."
What do you mean by this? WestJet is flying to both Barcelona and Dublin once again starting...
"It’s interesting that unlike in the summer of 2023, WestJet won’t operate from Calgary to places like Barcelona and Dublin, instead focusing on Asia. That certainly counters the North America airline trend in general. While Asia is a hot destination, Europe in summer is even hotter. I have to imagine that cargo somehow also factors into this."
What do you mean by this? WestJet is flying to both Barcelona and Dublin once again starting spring 2024. BCN has been extended to October 2024.
Urg at the time of the departures. Leaving around 6pm to ICN then around 11pm to YYC makes for 2 awful red-eyes. Typically some YVR to asia flights (ICN and NRT) leave a few hours earlier each way, reducing the amount of overnight you have to fly.
Do they codeshare w/ KoreanAir on any onward connections? (More East Asia routes is definitely a positive development! I remember purchasing BCN => YYZ one way in Biz for $800 and thinking that Westjet couldn’t have made much money on me…)
WestJet has a list of 20 codeshare partners on their website, one of which is Korean.
As hard as it is for some people to accept, 9 of the 20 partners are Skyteam airlines including all of the major Delta equity partners.
How do they make the economics work in such long flights with only 16 business seats? AC has almost twice that on their 787-9 and doesn’t seem like West Jet is charging much of a premium for nonstop in all classes
They have 320 total seats on their 787-9s which is on the high side of what int'l carriers have if they have business and premium economy - both of which WestJet has.
They don't pretend they are a premium global carrier but their 787s do have the Super Diamond seat in business so they have comparable hard products to many larger carriers.
WestJet will move closer and closer to Delta and Skyteam. ICN has enormous growth potential; DL has to wait for a decision on the Asiana/Korean merger but other DL-related airlines do not.
ICN will be what Tokyo used to be and then some - HKG and Chinese capacity is down and will remain so while Japan continues to be saddled by its two airport Tokyo decision.
"I love Delta. Everyone loves Delta because everyone knows they're the best and greatest and most wonderful company ever!
I get such a warm fuzzy feeling when I see that red triangle, that it makes me want to spend $28,000 per year and accrue Sky Pesos that I can never use, because Delta good! Delta nice! Delta best! Delta Delta Delta! Love Delta. Yay!
One day the whole world will be like Delta, and then...
"I love Delta. Everyone loves Delta because everyone knows they're the best and greatest and most wonderful company ever!
I get such a warm fuzzy feeling when I see that red triangle, that it makes me want to spend $28,000 per year and accrue Sky Pesos that I can never use, because Delta good! Delta nice! Delta best! Delta Delta Delta! Love Delta. Yay!
One day the whole world will be like Delta, and then we'll all go prancing merrily, dreaming of sugar plums and lollipops.
Me love Delta. You must love Delta. You no love Delta? You must be hater. Bad. You must know nothing. Bad. If you don't love Delta you must only like points. Shame. You should like corporations and their profits and their red triangles, because Delta good."
- The Stream of Conscious of Tim Dunn
You’re such a twat. Why is it prohibited to write more info on one airline than another? He wrote a valid comment and instead of a constructive response you wrote like a 5 year old.
Lighten up. The “Mind of Tim” post is one of the funnier things I’ve read here in a long time.
... you simply cannot accept that DL and Westjet have a relationship, Seoul has far bigger value as a connecting market than as a local market, and DL has a lot of influence in how its partners do their business.
btw, did you happen to see the huge list of new routes that Westjet is launching for summer 2024, a large chunk of which are to DL hubs?
Of course that is just a coincidence to your feeble mind.
While the other poster went overboard and Seoul does have bigger value as a connecting rather than local market, claiming that Seoul will be what Tokyo used to be and then some is ludicrous - it will never reach that magnitude.
The Tokyo metro is 50% larger than the Seoul metro in pop. (not to mention Japan is 2.5x South Korea). Japan is a far larger economy with Tokyo one of the legacy hubs for...
While the other poster went overboard and Seoul does have bigger value as a connecting rather than local market, claiming that Seoul will be what Tokyo used to be and then some is ludicrous - it will never reach that magnitude.
The Tokyo metro is 50% larger than the Seoul metro in pop. (not to mention Japan is 2.5x South Korea). Japan is a far larger economy with Tokyo one of the legacy hubs for financial and Asian businesses w/ a GDP 2x that of Seoul. Add tourism, Japan gets ~2-2.5x the number of international tourists as South Korea not to mention the larger domestic tourism.
Tokyo is bigger in size and economy and more visited by tourists than Seoul. Its biggest limitation is airport slots and preferences for other transit hubs in Asia for those connecting since the culture can be insular / intimidating to some.
Seoul has all of the same flaws but is just smaller and offers almost no advantages over Tokyo. Given that 2 of the 3 major alliances (if the merger goes through) will not have an alliance partner in Seoul but will in Tokyo, it's a viable alternative but still clearly a back-up to the more desirable option.
Put more succinctly, United that has alliance partners in Tokyo and Seoul today has always greatly prioritized the former and treats the latter marginally.
Delta tried to poach JAL from American, failed, tried to operated its own flights to Tokyo, has had mixed results and lost slots, and now is settling for Seoul after its failure. If they could poach JAL / ANA or make Tokyo work they would abandon Seoul in an instant
@Jeremy - you are wrong. Delta will see to it. It is the bestest ever.
UA's alliance partner in Seoul may soon be gone. Remember, KAL and Asiana are supposed to merge. But then again, UA may be safe for quite a few years with the way the merger is crawling.
In terms of Seoul v. Tokyo, I agree with you 100%. If my memory serves correct, DL - KAL had an okay relationship. Once DL lost it's Tokyo advantage (i.e. - Japan Airlines staying with OW), that's when they started to cozy up to KAL.
Jeremy,
I am speaking to the size of total transpacific departures and the amount of connecting passengers.
I don't expect S. Korea will overtake Japan but Tokyo's role for connecting traffic will shrink to the benefit of ICN and KE and DL.
For decades, Tokyo was the primary transpacific hub but that role is quickly passing to Seoul
@Tim Dunn Connecting passengers are mostly garbage yield, Seoul is competing with Taipei, Hong Kong, and Tokyo among other hubs. Tokyo has a lot more premium traffic and is overall much more profitable. It's much better to have a flight that is 75% OD and 25% connecting than v.v.
Sorry, but I disagree a bit. HKG and TPE are not as competitive for Asia connectivity as they are much further south than ICN and TYO. Still great hubs, but for different markets.
As for connecting yields, that’s often true, but with pinpoint strategy it can be better…usually into secondary cities that can generate higher yields, even if carried on interline tickets. It depends on the combination of network and interline agreements.
How is this good for Delta? How many DL frequent fliers are going to fly USA-YYC-ICN-XXX? All for a 1% rebate on their travel? I guess if Delta FFs are dumb enough to do that then they deserve the airline they fly.
@Jeremy, in defense of Tim, Seoul is still a rising player. It's close to the level of Taipei, Beijing or Guangzhou, so just a level below Tokyo, Hong Kong Shanghai. If OZ-KE goes through, it also leaves SEL with just one full service carrier. Positioning wise for transit, SEL is about as convenient as TYO, except with fewer Japanese connections, but much closer for Chinese ones. Korean GDP per capita is nearing Japanese GDP per...
@Jeremy, in defense of Tim, Seoul is still a rising player. It's close to the level of Taipei, Beijing or Guangzhou, so just a level below Tokyo, Hong Kong Shanghai. If OZ-KE goes through, it also leaves SEL with just one full service carrier. Positioning wise for transit, SEL is about as convenient as TYO, except with fewer Japanese connections, but much closer for Chinese ones. Korean GDP per capita is nearing Japanese GDP per capita, and the Korean economy is still strong and growing compared to Japan only recently coming out of its decades long struggles.
Also, SkyTeam has a main hub in PVG, which with Chinese capacity gradually being restored, can also serve as an equivalent to TYO.
Star has TYO, SIN and BJS, and to a less extent TPE. OW has TYO and HKG. SkyTeam has SHA and SEL, and to a lesser extent TPE.
@David Connecting international-international in Shanghai is miserable and the airport is really not set up to do such transfers. I doubt PVG will ever offer real competition to other Asian megahubs in its current configuration. While currently the yield on Shanghai flights is quite high due to US-China conflict, the yields back pre-pandemic were garbage so a low yield non-stop flights + bad transfer experience means that I wouldn't really count it as a major...
@David Connecting international-international in Shanghai is miserable and the airport is really not set up to do such transfers. I doubt PVG will ever offer real competition to other Asian megahubs in its current configuration. While currently the yield on Shanghai flights is quite high due to US-China conflict, the yields back pre-pandemic were garbage so a low yield non-stop flights + bad transfer experience means that I wouldn't really count it as a major asset for SkyTeam.
@David I'd agree but would go even further and say Seoul is already a strong player for transit in Asia. However, given many of the emerging dynamics in this region I see a lot of challenges for cities focused on "transit hubs".
For one, India is rapidly getting more nonstops to North America (and more frequencies to Europe) - initially it was just Delhi. Right before Russia, Bangalore and Mumbai were supposed to join the...
@David I'd agree but would go even further and say Seoul is already a strong player for transit in Asia. However, given many of the emerging dynamics in this region I see a lot of challenges for cities focused on "transit hubs".
For one, India is rapidly getting more nonstops to North America (and more frequencies to Europe) - initially it was just Delhi. Right before Russia, Bangalore and Mumbai were supposed to join the party. Given the growth here, you will see more of these flights (even AA has maintained their nonstop from JFK). This will hurt Dubai and HK more than Tokyo and Seoul but it will have an impact.
Then United is launching a new nonstop to Manila and increasing frequencies to Hong Kong. Bamboo Airways just started direct US - Vietnam flights last year and if this route is bankable, it is very likely you will see United follow from SF and Houston (home to huge Vietnamese communities). Given the economic growth here, it is likely to come to fruition at some point.
Then China will rebound eventually - maybe not to pre-COVID levels but definitely much more than the 24 nonstops daily we have today.
Together I think these factors will limit the value of a traditional "transit hub" and this will make Asia a bloodbath which is exactly what it was to the US carriers pre-COVID, but we shall see.
@Andrew great point that international-international is garbage at PVG, but PVG (and PEK/PKX + HKG) are basically *the* gateways to China, especially if not going to a T1 city.
@Jeremy, totally agree that Asia will be a bloodbath towards US carriers, it's just such a competitive market with so many players, different cultures and markets and needs. One counter for Bamboo Airways is uh... they're kinda imploding. But rest I all agree with. I still...
@Andrew great point that international-international is garbage at PVG, but PVG (and PEK/PKX + HKG) are basically *the* gateways to China, especially if not going to a T1 city.
@Jeremy, totally agree that Asia will be a bloodbath towards US carriers, it's just such a competitive market with so many players, different cultures and markets and needs. One counter for Bamboo Airways is uh... they're kinda imploding. But rest I all agree with. I still think TYO is overall better than SEL, but especially since there's no more Japanese carriers to court, SEL + TPE as backups isn't bad (provided CI integration actually becomes meaningful).
Calgary is a Global connection city. What are you smoking? WestJet is a nice leisure airline that has 7 wide body aircraft. Do you really think they are going to survive long term with a no growth potential in new aircraft? With global air traffic growing daily all they will be doing is spilling traffic to their competitors. One delay on their international network will create a backlog for days. They need to stay with...
Calgary is a Global connection city. What are you smoking? WestJet is a nice leisure airline that has 7 wide body aircraft. Do you really think they are going to survive long term with a no growth potential in new aircraft? With global air traffic growing daily all they will be doing is spilling traffic to their competitors. One delay on their international network will create a backlog for days. They need to stay with a limited daily schedule not at a day here and there schedule. Build with what you have and don’t try to compete where you are doomed to fail.
Foolish comment. It’s not for DL connectivity, it’s for the Canadian market, primarily leisure and VFR.
David and Leigh get it.
S. Korea is a smaller market but Korean has a much higher percentage of the market than any carrier has in Japan and that is going to grow. Either the Asiana merger gets approved or Asiana goes belly up. Delta will be right alongside KE. ICN is not "settling for" anything.
Japan is a shrinking market based on demographics - one of the few in Asia. Add in...
David and Leigh get it.
S. Korea is a smaller market but Korean has a much higher percentage of the market than any carrier has in Japan and that is going to grow. Either the Asiana merger gets approved or Asiana goes belly up. Delta will be right alongside KE. ICN is not "settling for" anything.
Japan is a shrinking market based on demographics - one of the few in Asia. Add in that Japan committed to a two airport solution for Tokyo which sub-optimizes the performance of both airports for international connections and KE/DL will take a larger percentage of US-Asia connections than ever.
China is simply not going to return to the previous level of capacity to the US; the Chinese government had to subsidize their carriers to offer that much capacity and they are not going to reinstate it. China as a connecting location between the Americas and elsewhere in Asia is largely over.
You need only look at DL's yields compared to AA and UA's across the Pacific to see that DL is not carrying "trash yields"
And the A350-1000 - which will be devoted heavily to ICN when it finally gets delivered - will give DL the most cost-competitive aircraft to serve the Pacific.
and the point of my comment about DL's involvement in this route is not for the US-YYC-ICN-XXX connections but rather that WestJet will provide some marginal benefit simply as part of its codeshare. DL/KE will keep the best revenue for itself.
And the WestJet flight will connect from KE flights in Asia eastbound to YYC and DL/WestJet might well display connections for some of the same N. America to ICN connections esp. given the WestJet schedule is not banked w/ DL or KE hubs.
Korea's birthrate has fallen below Japan's; this is a problem across Northeast Asia but SK is actually one of the worst at the moment.
@ USUKHKflyer - but these facts don’t support Tim’s love of Delta, so they don’t matter.
S. Korea's population growth decline started during covid and was well above Japan's before.
Perhaps S. Korea will not grow as much but its per capita income is growing much faster than Japan.
And none of the country-specific demographics change that ICN is a far better hub for connections than either Tokyo airport before covid and the trend is changing even more for the positive.
You do realize that DL and KE...
S. Korea's population growth decline started during covid and was well above Japan's before.
Perhaps S. Korea will not grow as much but its per capita income is growing much faster than Japan.
And none of the country-specific demographics change that ICN is a far better hub for connections than either Tokyo airport before covid and the trend is changing even more for the positive.
You do realize that DL and KE BOTH were larger in their combined Japan/S. Korea to N. America route systems than ANA or JAL before covid and that trend is all growing.
As hard as it is for some to connect but Seoul is becoming a much larger connecting hub and DL and its partners are participating in that growth.
Tell us how many NEW flights have been added to Tokyo from the US in the past 3 years or will be in the next 3 years.
Tim - this post was about WestJet adding a flight from Calgary to Seoul. A flight which offers next to NO connectivity due to its timing. Yet you turn this into a post about Delta, etc. Why?
If an AA or UA partner added a flight to a partner hub, with no opportunity for connections, you would pan it. Why does everything have to be about Delta?
the real question is why you jump into any discussion to argue against clear facts, esp. when it is clear that you don't like them?
Why are you now arguing that I should back off after the facts clearly are highlighting what you don't like?
The flight DOES connect eastbound... and it also connects in YYC to the US.
WestJet is adding more capacity to DL hubs and Skyteam markets than to anywhere...
the real question is why you jump into any discussion to argue against clear facts, esp. when it is clear that you don't like them?
Why are you now arguing that I should back off after the facts clearly are highlighting what you don't like?
The flight DOES connect eastbound... and it also connects in YYC to the US.
WestJet is adding more capacity to DL hubs and Skyteam markets than to anywhere else. WestJet has more Skyteam partners than for any other alliance.
ICN is the fastest growing hub in North Asia. DL can't or won't add more ICN capacity in routes until a decision is made about the Korean/Asiana merger. DL and KE are both happy to see other partners add capacity.
Tim, the post was about something other than Delta. You make it about Delta. Others point out that ridiculous fact. I point out that others have valid points - Korea’s against population is nearly that of Japan (which is one reason you denigrate Tokyo as a hub), the connection time sucks, etc., and you complain that I am pointing out these valid facts. You can’t stand it when someone calls you out. It’s that simple.
And it’s not just me… frankly, I’ve tried holding back. Others are jumping on you as well. But when I point out facts - as opposed to your opinion - you ask why I am jumping in to argue against you. Because the original post has absolutely nothing to do with Delta, or WestJet getting close to Delta, or WestJet flying to Delta hubs. Nothing. There is no connectivity argument to be made, none.
I could care less who is jumping on who.
The question which one of the very first replies to this million mile long subthread is why you and others get so worked up about what someone else contributes to the discussion.
And, in case you missed it - which you are clearly trying to do - Delta is BOTH WestJet and Korean's largest partners and both relations are growing.
You and others...
I could care less who is jumping on who.
The question which one of the very first replies to this million mile long subthread is why you and others get so worked up about what someone else contributes to the discussion.
And, in case you missed it - which you are clearly trying to do - Delta is BOTH WestJet and Korean's largest partners and both relations are growing.
You and others argued incessantly about the size of the S. Korea market and missed that DL and KE both control much higher percentages of that market - as is true in other DL hubs - which leads to higher profits.
Again, if you don't want to read or participate in a discussion, JUST WALK AWAY.
Ben moderates what he wants and not wants. He clearly has no interest in your perspective of shutting down conversations someone doesn't like.
Why should I walk away? I point out the flaws in your argument, and you ask why? Because you are sometimes wrong. Admit it.
You know what Tim, you are absolutely right - Ben moderates as he likes. So he can delete this - STFU. Trolls make fun of you. I didn’t jump on you, and your Delta fetish, until you started stating your opinion / predictions as FACT. You are wrong about S. Korea not aging, etc. So I point that out, AFTER others have pointed out the flaws in your logic, and you ask why I always...
You know what Tim, you are absolutely right - Ben moderates as he likes. So he can delete this - STFU. Trolls make fun of you. I didn’t jump on you, and your Delta fetish, until you started stating your opinion / predictions as FACT. You are wrong about S. Korea not aging, etc. So I point that out, AFTER others have pointed out the flaws in your logic, and you ask why I always argue against you. I only do when you repeatedly state your opinion as fact. You’ll note I don’t attack your Delta festish when you state that Delta is the most profitable airline - that is fact. But you are making predictions about Seoul vs. Tokyo, etc. And I point that out. And you can’t take it. So STFU.
YOU, and only you and a few other people, are fixated with what I and others post.
I DON'T CARE.
If you don't like what Ben allows, move on.
And you also fail to note in the 2nd reply to this massive sub-thread that someone countered the notion that I should shut up because someone else thought I was fixated on Delta.
And I presented facts which are directly related to...
YOU, and only you and a few other people, are fixated with what I and others post.
I DON'T CARE.
If you don't like what Ben allows, move on.
And you also fail to note in the 2nd reply to this massive sub-thread that someone countered the notion that I should shut up because someone else thought I was fixated on Delta.
And I presented facts which are directly related to discussions that people that actually contributed to the conversation made (clearly not including you) but your only retort is to mock me.
now tell us what NEW flights have been added to Tokyo from the US and Canada and under the star and oneworld alliances and then do the same with Seoul, with KE partners, and with Skyteam.
The simple fact is that Tokyo's position in Asian aviation is shrinking because of Japanese policy while S. Korea-N. America aviation is growing.
And you clearly can't stand to have that pointed out so you try to shut down the conversation.
Move on. Seriously. Walk. Away.
Tim - you love DOT stats so much… so find the stats that show Tokyo - overall - is shrinking compared to Seoul. Find the FACTS. You can’t. It is your opinion. Your prediction. But that doesn’t make it right, So you just move along. You can’t cope when someone challenges you to PROVE something. Prove that Tokyo is shrinking compared to Seoul. Not because of the pandemic. But prove it because of policy. You CAN’T. Goodnight.
well, actually I can. The data is not from the DOT but from the Dept. of Commerce and cited by Airlines for America.
Arrivals FROM Japan are down 19.5% which is the highest of any countries in East Asia other than mainland China (down 87%) and HKG (down 43%) compared to 2019.
Despite what United will try and tell you, they are carrying less O&D traffic between the US and Japan. Their loads...
well, actually I can. The data is not from the DOT but from the Dept. of Commerce and cited by Airlines for America.
Arrivals FROM Japan are down 19.5% which is the highest of any countries in East Asia other than mainland China (down 87%) and HKG (down 43%) compared to 2019.
Despite what United will try and tell you, they are carrying less O&D traffic between the US and Japan. Their loads are up ONLY because of the connecting traffic.
AA, UA, NH or JL are not adding new flights between the US and Japan
New flights are being added to S. Korea.
I don't expect an apology for you but I am glad that you at least bothered to ask where I found the data; you simply are wrong that I don't back up everything I have with data.
Your assertion that I would be wrong played nicely into allowing me to prove it.
A4A regularly releases their data updates and they are available for even you to access.
I don't expect an apology from you
> You need only look at DL's yields compared to AA and UA's across the Pacific to see that DL is not carrying "trash yields"
AA isn't a serious TPAC player. They only have a handful of flights. UA's SFO hub is much more profitable than anything DL has going. UA doesn't break out its flights as such but I have to imagine that SFO-TYO is one of UA's crown jewel most profitable routes, the...
> You need only look at DL's yields compared to AA and UA's across the Pacific to see that DL is not carrying "trash yields"
AA isn't a serious TPAC player. They only have a handful of flights. UA's SFO hub is much more profitable than anything DL has going. UA doesn't break out its flights as such but I have to imagine that SFO-TYO is one of UA's crown jewel most profitable routes, the amount of paid J traffic is light years ahead of what ICN gets.
DL might or might not be getting "trash" yields at ICN but the only way they are going to grow passenger flow there is connecting traffic (due to birth rate decline in ICN, increased competition, etc.). Any added flights will definitely tank DL's yield.
airlines don't provide profit data by hub. Revenue data is available. Feel free to let us know how you calculate profitability.
ATL for DL is widely regarded to be the most profitable hub in the world which is as much about size and efficiency which means by any reasonable analysis, SFO for UA is likely not more profitable than anything that DL operates.
And since DL year in and year out is more...
airlines don't provide profit data by hub. Revenue data is available. Feel free to let us know how you calculate profitability.
ATL for DL is widely regarded to be the most profitable hub in the world which is as much about size and efficiency which means by any reasonable analysis, SFO for UA is likely not more profitable than anything that DL operates.
And since DL year in and year out is more profitable than UA despite peaks in summer profits by UA, ATL can't be the only hub that is more profitable for DL.
None of which changes that WestJet sees opportunity in Asia and they are growing at ICN which is growing more than Tokyo and they are aligning even more with Skyteam airlines.
@Tim I'm only speaking of TPAC profitability. SFO has never been a very effective connecting hub for domestic flights but due to all of the TPAC tech business travel it's almost a license to print money for UA for those flights. I have multiple friends that live there and the odds of ever clearing an international upgrade with an instrument out of SFO is basically zero since there is so much paid J traffic.
...@Tim I'm only speaking of TPAC profitability. SFO has never been a very effective connecting hub for domestic flights but due to all of the TPAC tech business travel it's almost a license to print money for UA for those flights. I have multiple friends that live there and the odds of ever clearing an international upgrade with an instrument out of SFO is basically zero since there is so much paid J traffic.
And to your point about ICN > TYO, note that WestJet is 7 days a week to TYO, 3 days a week to ICN and they have no partner at TYO. Answers your question right there.
TYO started as 3X/week for them as well.
And, again, airlines don't provide profitability data on specific hubs.
As far as TPAC as a whole, DL has made more money flying the Pacific over the last 10 years than either AA or UA.
As much as some people want to criticize DL for pulling down Asia post-NW merger, they did what they had to do to turn the profitability of the Pacific...
TYO started as 3X/week for them as well.
And, again, airlines don't provide profitability data on specific hubs.
As far as TPAC as a whole, DL has made more money flying the Pacific over the last 10 years than either AA or UA.
As much as some people want to criticize DL for pulling down Asia post-NW merger, they did what they had to do to turn the profitability of the Pacific around and to restrategize in light of the Japanese decision to open HND to flights to the US and not allow DL to move its beyond Tokyo flights to HND.
even as late as the 2nd quarter of this year, DL made 1.8X more profit per seat mile across the Pacific than UA. UA's profits were about 20% larger but its revenue was twice as large as DL's.
UA just has a higher percentage of its TPAC network at one airport than DL has at any airport; UA at SFO for the Pacific is like AA at MIA. DL does not try to have one massively larger gateway to any global region.