A couple of weeks ago, I wrote about United Airlines requesting permission to launch another route to China, and expand its long haul presence in Los Angeles. There’s now an update, as this flight is on sale.
In this post:
United adding new route to Beijing as of May 2025
As of May 1, 2025, United will launch a 3x weekly nonstop flight between (LAX) and Beijing (PEK). The flight will operate with the following schedule:
UA771 Los Angeles to Beijing departing 11:10PM arriving 4:45AM (+2 days)
UA772 Beijing to Los Angeles departing 12:00PM arriving 9:35AM
The 6,250-mile route will operate westbound on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, and eastbound on Thursdays, Saturdays, and Mondays. United will use a Boeing 787-9 for the route. These planes have 257 seats, including 48 business class seats, 21 premium economy seats, and 188 economy seats.
United currently operates a single route to Beijing, out of San Francisco (SFO). The only other airline flying nonstop between Los Angeles and Beijing is Air China. This is the first route added to mainland China by a US airline in several years.
How this route fits into the competitive landscape
Flights between the United States and China are capped, with airlines from each country having a combined maximum number of weekly frequencies they can operate. US airlines are allowed to operate 50 weekly flights between Los Angeles and Beijing, and currently carriers from the United States remain below that limit.
Demand between the United States and China is a fraction of what it was pre-pandemic. That was initially because the governments of both countries had a low cap on flights. However, even as that cap has increased, US airlines just haven’t had the desire to use up all available frequencies. This reflects the weak economic situation in China, plus strained relations between the two countries.
As I’ve often written about, Los Angeles is a market where all of the “big three” US carriers have a significant presence, but none really have a dominant market position. As it currently stands, United’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include Hong Kong (HKG), London (LHR), Melbourne (MEL), Shanghai (PVG), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND & NRT), all on a year-round basis. Now United will add Beijing flights (PEK) as well.
How does this compare to other airlines?
- American’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include London (LHR), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND), on a year-round basis, as well as Auckland (AKL) on a seasonal basis
- Delta’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include Paris (CDG), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND), on a year-round basis, as well as Auckland (AKL), Brisbane (BNE), and Tahiti (PPT), on a seasonal basis; Delta also plans to resume Shanghai (PVG) flights as of June 2025
So United already serves the most long haul destinations out of Los Angeles, and that lead will increase even more when this route launches.
Bottom line
As of May 2025, United plans to launch a new 3x weekly flight between Los Angeles and Beijing using Boeing 787s. This will complement United’s service to Beijing out of San Francisco. As demand between the United States and China continues to lag, we’re still seeing a surplus of China frequencies available for US airlines.
What do you make of United adding Los Angeles to Beijing flights?
Since we’re talking about stuff not related to the article - @Tim how did your airline invesment portfolio do this year vs. JETS ETF? How much alpha return vs. beta? Haven’t seen you on seeking alpha in a while.
I do not own any airline stocks at the moment. The industry has neared its peak in terms of valuation and hit resistance. It is not as fun to write about stocks that you don't see a strong future for growth in the near term. Most airline stocks plateau for the winter only to begin climbing, if they do, in the spring based on summer guidance.
UAL led the industry. I had varying recommendations on...
I do not own any airline stocks at the moment. The industry has neared its peak in terms of valuation and hit resistance. It is not as fun to write about stocks that you don't see a strong future for growth in the near term. Most airline stocks plateau for the winter only to begin climbing, if they do, in the spring based on summer guidance.
UAL led the industry. I had varying recommendations on it throughout the year but had a buy just before UAL stock took off this summer. UAL has done a great job of cutting its underperformance gap relative to DAL and is now valued close to its earnings ratio relative to DAL.
DAL still is the most profitable US airline, has the highest market cap of any airline in the world, and generates the most total revenue of any airline in the world.
Just about every objective analyst recognizes that DAL is still the global airline leader.
DAL stock is up 53% YTD - not as much as UAL - but still outperforming most market indices.
Other airline stocks behave more like trading stocks.
I believe LUV has the highest likelihood of turning things around in 2025.
there will be a significant amount of capacity that will be operated by airlines that are just barely surviving and that will not change in 2025.
it isn't a surprise that the future of the US industry lies in the hands of DAL and UAL with UAL continuing to try to play catchup and pass on the metrics in which DAL leads.
Tim Dunn = blog lice. Ben, the infestation is wrecking your blog.
and yet every comment I make results in a multiple of comments from others. In this case, it is the insufferable UA fan kids that can't stand to admit that UA not only is not untouchable but that other airlines do some things better than UA.
Tim,
typing gibberish and outright lies causes others to respond and correct you. You say such ridiculously outlandish things, at times, that it makes it VERY easy to criticize you and get a 10 paragraph response.
Though I will say, I find your responses hilarious since you only reinforce your ignorant reputation with every keystroke.
And this from you, really?
In this case, it is the insufferable UA fan kids that can't...
Tim,
typing gibberish and outright lies causes others to respond and correct you. You say such ridiculously outlandish things, at times, that it makes it VERY easy to criticize you and get a 10 paragraph response.
Though I will say, I find your responses hilarious since you only reinforce your ignorant reputation with every keystroke.
And this from you, really?
In this case, it is the insufferable UA fan kids that can't stand to admit that UA not only is not untouchable but that other airlines do some things better than UA."
You're describing yourself about Delta. Your complete lack of self awareness is stupid and you need meds. Or to stop self medicating with the bottle every single night.
As usual, you live your life in the shadow of a better and FAR more respected writer, Ben.
perhaps one day you'll realize how sad you appear constantly living in the shadows like this but. I doubt it
jane,
all of social media exists because people live it or at least love to push extremes that they would never live in in real life.
You are free to categorize what I say as lies but when some people argue that AC is larger than DL across the Pacific when that is easily verifiable or think that 80% of something is "close" (in this case UA's net profits compared to DL - ask...
jane,
all of social media exists because people live it or at least love to push extremes that they would never live in in real life.
You are free to categorize what I say as lies but when some people argue that AC is larger than DL across the Pacific when that is easily verifiable or think that 80% of something is "close" (in this case UA's net profits compared to DL - ask a UA pilot if getting a passenger 80% of the way to their destination is acceptable), then there is more than adequate reason for discussion simply based on objective facts.
And then there are people like you frequent this blog only to trash me which adds absolutely no value. thankfully, the number of those people is shrinking. I suspect Ben has tapped a few people on the shoulder.
the greatest amount of internet noise comes from UA fans that are convinced that UA is at the top of the world and no one can touch them, touting things which even UA execs and facts say is not reality.
Specific to this article, DL actually wanted to fly LAX-PEK, AA applied for it and won it because it was smaller to Asia than DL, AA lost boatloads to Asia because of Chinese government subsidies to its airlines which trashed fares, DL made money flying the Pacific while UA operated its system at breakeven for 3 years in the late 2010s because UA couldn't stand to let anyone else gain market share, and UA sees an opportunity to regrow its network by growing PEK that AA and DL aren't willing to take.
a pretty mundane 3 day/week new flight has turned into one of the better pi3452ing matches because some people live in a world that is not rooted in reality.
UA does a lot of things better than other airlines but other airlines have their own strengths.
There is a chorus of people that manage to find flaws with DL but none can accept that DL really is sitting at the top of the industry in multiple regards and any objective observer of the industry from outside of it knows that.
I am still rooting for Ben to win the internet for 2024 but a return - or perhaps first time arrival at some objective rationality and willingness to accept it - would be a wonderful place to end 2024 and begin 2025.
However, I don't expect I will be hanging up my cleats anytime soon.
"all of social media exists because people live it or at least love to push extremes that they would never live in in real life."
aka
You describe yourself as an internet troll.
It's entertaining you enjoy others of trolling then use the actual definition of an internet troll to describe your actions on various websites.
How is it wrecking his blog? One could easily plot out a graph showing TD activity vs page views/comments on OMAAT.
I don't have the energy to do so (and obviously don't have page view data), but as a long-term reader of this blog I can assure you this is hardly debatable. TD generates traffic, plain and simple. Ben knows this well -- why do you think he drops so many little "premium" gags in his posts?
Also @Plane Jane, I'm still waiting to come across a post from you that offers any meaningful substance/insight on aviation/credit cards vs just projecting ad hominems on TD.
I vaguely recall an oddly pro-British Airways comment from a few weeks back... otherwise, nada. But I'll keep searching and hopefully will be proven wrong.
I wish I could say your opinion mattered to me, Redacted, but it doesn't. The majority of your writing on here is just trying to give credibility to Tim Dunn, hardly something worth bragging about. Or that gives you any credibility whatsoever.
Also amusing how you defend Tim Dunn's nonstop posting as helping Lucky's blog, then attack those that respond to him generating the 30 responses Tim becomes famous for.
But by all means, keep...
I wish I could say your opinion mattered to me, Redacted, but it doesn't. The majority of your writing on here is just trying to give credibility to Tim Dunn, hardly something worth bragging about. Or that gives you any credibility whatsoever.
Also amusing how you defend Tim Dunn's nonstop posting as helping Lucky's blog, then attack those that respond to him generating the 30 responses Tim becomes famous for.
But by all means, keep reading until you find what you're looking for. It's a waste of your time at work, not mine.
And when Tim uses the definition of an internet troll himself to describe his comments, I'm happy to point that out.
Go back to your tax work.
@Plane Jane you haven't been paying attention to the **other** Delta hacks here, have you?
I’m surprised neither AA nor DL made an attempt at a China route.
Yes China traffic is a fraction of what it was, but it looks like UA is in the best spot to make sure it has most of that fraction, and all of the PEK traffic.
Surprising that only one of the US3 will fly to PEK, and from two gateways, though not as surprisingly knowing that it’s UA.
The...
I’m surprised neither AA nor DL made an attempt at a China route.
Yes China traffic is a fraction of what it was, but it looks like UA is in the best spot to make sure it has most of that fraction, and all of the PEK traffic.
Surprising that only one of the US3 will fly to PEK, and from two gateways, though not as surprisingly knowing that it’s UA.
The 787s really are proving themselves as the aircraft that can make these routes work. Long range, good capacity but not so much that yields risk being diluted.
Mark,
you do realize that UA used to fly EWR, IAD and ORD to PEK and now all of their China routes are from CA.
Help me understand how the 787 is a success when DL manages to fly from DTW to PVG and from ATL and DTW to ICN on an A350?
Looks to me that DL's TPAC routes are on average far longer than UA's and the only UA route that is longer than DL's longest TPAC routes is SFO-SIN.
help me understand with facts the basis of your comment, Mark
literally who cares if UA used to fly to PEK from more places, but now they don't? the aviation market between china and the US is completely different now than it was in 2019, as stated by Ben multiple times in this very article. the point you can't seem to accept is that UA has been by far the most aggressive in restoring China flying out of the US3, and LAX - PEK is a...
literally who cares if UA used to fly to PEK from more places, but now they don't? the aviation market between china and the US is completely different now than it was in 2019, as stated by Ben multiple times in this very article. the point you can't seem to accept is that UA has been by far the most aggressive in restoring China flying out of the US3, and LAX - PEK is a great example. but by limiting that expansion to their safest TPAC hubs - SFO and LAX - they can bet on recovery in this market while not overplaying their hand. Having an alliance partner in CA at PEK probably helps a ton too.
and this other random nonsense about DL's a350 routes being longer on average? again, literally who cares? his point was about how the 787 has the right range and fuel economy to fly these routes, while offering the right amount of capacity to not dilute yields. maybe the a350 would also be a good plane? doesn't have any bearing on whether the driver 787 itself is appropriate for this mission
you dont have to interpret praise for UA as an attack on DL lmao and i get that you have some kind of financial interest in DL, but pissing people off in the comments of OMAAT isn't going to somehow sway DL's market cap
"literally who cares if UA used to fly to PEK from more places, but now they don't?"
Um, the people who had the option to fly there via those places, and who now cant? Sorta obvious answer there.
"his point was about how the 787 has the right range and fuel economy to fly these routes,"
Hate to agree with Tim on anything, but the point that you're missing is that the 787 doesn't grant...
"literally who cares if UA used to fly to PEK from more places, but now they don't?"
Um, the people who had the option to fly there via those places, and who now cant? Sorta obvious answer there.
"his point was about how the 787 has the right range and fuel economy to fly these routes,"
Hate to agree with Tim on anything, but the point that you're missing is that the 787 doesn't grant UA the flexibility to fly some of those routes in the current airspace environment. Basically, the exact opposite of what you're saying.
@Tim Dunn let us know when you are off riding Delta.
Now, when you are done you do realize that you are good at omitting things and not directly engaging in what someone else was talking about, yeah?
Ummm….currently and I mean now and don’t deflect this question, what other routes do Delta fly to from US to China?
Tell us how UA manages to fly to HK from LAX but DL can’t? Tell...
@Tim Dunn let us know when you are off riding Delta.
Now, when you are done you do realize that you are good at omitting things and not directly engaging in what someone else was talking about, yeah?
Ummm….currently and I mean now and don’t deflect this question, what other routes do Delta fly to from US to China?
Tell us how UA manages to fly to HK from LAX but DL can’t? Tell us why DL pulled out of the HK market. Tell us why DL ended its route between Atlanta and Shanghai? Tell us why UA can still have intra-Asia flights but DL can’t?
When will DL fly from one of its hub to Beijing again? And this is Mark’s point and everyone here clearly knows you just ignored it: he was talking about how UA can fly to Beijing but AA and DL can’t. And he probably means how UA is connecting more different cities between US and China than other U.S. carriers.
The answer is that DL only cares about profits and will cut routes which is fair enough. It is a business but as others have said to you over and over that DL is clearly not a customer friendly company in terms of offering much more various routes and even on its own metal. You keep saying how DL flies so much to APAC and we know you mean with its JV and not its own metal unlike UA.
OK I'll help you.
Yes, UA serves China from LAX and SFO, but those are two powerhouse international hubs for UA. Not only do they serve significant O&D but the majority of US connections can use those well. It's the best of both worlds. DL's DTW hub serves lower O&D and is primarily for connections in the eastern half, except for lower-yielding customers willing to significantly backtrack.
Yes UA used to serve China from more...
OK I'll help you.
Yes, UA serves China from LAX and SFO, but those are two powerhouse international hubs for UA. Not only do they serve significant O&D but the majority of US connections can use those well. It's the best of both worlds. DL's DTW hub serves lower O&D and is primarily for connections in the eastern half, except for lower-yielding customers willing to significantly backtrack.
Yes UA used to serve China from more cities, but China demand is a fraction of what it was. So UA will have less flights for now than it used to but still be the dominant US airline to serve the country. The other flights will come back, but for now SFO and LAX will do will, as evidenced by the continual Asian growth we are seeing in the face of UA's willingness to cut unprofitable flights.
Regarding the eastern half of the country, UA has flights to Asia from the economic centers of NYC, DC, and Chicago. All serve the powerful Star hub of Tokyo, one of the largest business centers in the world. UA actually has double-daily service to Tokyo from NYC (a market DL didn't even bother applying for), connecting two major economic centers while also providing connections through Asia. NYC also has a third flight to Asia on UA, to DEL.
Delta has...Detroit. If NYC customers are willing to fly all the way down to the inland hub of ATL to make a connection, they are hardly likely to be high-yielding.
Is all of this because UA's international gateways are stronger than DL's? Is it because UA has a very capable plane in the 787, whose fleet size is approaching 100, with 200 on order? Is it because UA will never put premium passengers on a 767 that has a very outdated product that even Ben calls one of the worst in the skies? Is it a combination of all three?
DL executives have said the majority of their profits come from inland hubs. Not that the coastal hubs are unprofitable, but their inland hubs are fortress hubs. No significant competing airlines, not even competing airports. They have fortress pricing will extremely low costs, especially in ATL, where CPEs are in the $2 range. DL does better where they don't have to compete, as opposed to UA, which faces significant competition in every hub, either at the airport itself or at the hub's competing cross-town airport.
UA has learned how to compete and does so very well. They are set up to continue their unrivaled international expansion, as their domestic capacity continues to grow and upgauge.
Regarding the upcoming A350-1000s, yes they will have a low cost due to the large capacity, but I'm sure know that the other side of that coin is the need to fill that capacity with high yields. Otherwise, why doesn't DL fly A350s to LAS and MCO? Because it's not all about the capacity.
Oh, and before I go, Boeing will soon be delivering IGW 787s. These will expand even more on the current 787's capabilities. UA's longest TPAC route is already longer than DL's longest TPAC route, another fact that bolsters the case for strong 787 performance.
How else would you explain UA's international dominance as UA quickly catches top domestically, all while UA earnings remain strong?
DL and UA earnings are within a few hundred million dollars of each other, for companies with tens of billions of dollars in revenue.
thanks for taking the time to respond, Mark, but all you had to do is explain why the 787 is so great.
It has nothing to do with the hubs each airline uses but the capabilities of the aircraft.
DL operates longer stage length flights and has more TPAC flights over 7000 miles (actually flown w/ Russian airspace restrictions) than UA.
Sounds to me like the A350 is the longer range plane.
we...
thanks for taking the time to respond, Mark, but all you had to do is explain why the 787 is so great.
It has nothing to do with the hubs each airline uses but the capabilities of the aircraft.
DL operates longer stage length flights and has more TPAC flights over 7000 miles (actually flown w/ Russian airspace restrictions) than UA.
Sounds to me like the A350 is the longer range plane.
we did know that you had to deride DTW because you can't accept or admit that DL manages to serve a market from the eastern US to China that UA expects you to fly to CA for.
btw, if you think DTW is out of the way, pull up the great circle route from any city in the eastern US north of the Mason-Dixon line and tell me how flying via California makes sense. That includes ALL of the NE and Midwest.
again, I am more than happy to let UA do what it does but you would save a whole lot of time typing if you could just accept that other airlines have winning strategies as well - and in some cases, more winning than UA.
stanley,
you do realize that the entire reason UA exists is to maximize financial gains for its stockholders?
If you think it is for any other reason, feel free to show us your reason in UA's organizational documents.
oh, and mark, you do realize that DL will serve China from 3 gateways by this summer?
I know you look down at any hub that isn't UA's but DL could have PVG pretty well covered with DTW, SEA and LAX.
@tim I know that but I have already said that at least with UA they do try to diversify the routes for its customers unlike DL and what about answering my other questions.
Not deriding Detroit the city, just pointing out that it doesn't have the O&D that LAX and SFO have. I could have made the same case for MSP and Salt Lake City, two more cities DL has to rely on for international gateways, even though they don't have the O&D found in most UA hubs. Even with SEA, a city with more O&D, the competition from other airlines there leaves DL unable to make a...
Not deriding Detroit the city, just pointing out that it doesn't have the O&D that LAX and SFO have. I could have made the same case for MSP and Salt Lake City, two more cities DL has to rely on for international gateways, even though they don't have the O&D found in most UA hubs. Even with SEA, a city with more O&D, the competition from other airlines there leaves DL unable to make a stronger TPAC hub. The growth from AS, a strong number one airline that is preferred by most local flyers, will only make SEA more difficult for DL.
Also, UA was able to make LAX-PVG work sooner than DL could, as DL planned the route and pushed it back twice.
I would say the biggest endorsement on the 787, apart from it's proven range, capacity without having to dilute yields, and the upcoming IGW model, is the one from Scott Kirby.
UA had been successfully flying the 787 around the world for years when it came time to expand the wide body fleet. He had all the figures and chose to order an additional *200* 787s. If that's not an endorsement I don't know what is. UA could have easily ordered a large fleet of A350s if those economics had worked better. There would have been enough scale in the 787 and A350 fleets to make them both work.
Mark,
UA and DL and AA operate NETWORKS to Asia, not just O&D markets.
DL gets the revenue premiums that it does because it gets more demand from ACROSS THE US instead of concentrating its network around a few highly competitive metro areas.
You could have easily answered that ORD would have been a better choice than LAX if the point was to serve more of the US more efficiently. ORD and DTW are...
Mark,
UA and DL and AA operate NETWORKS to Asia, not just O&D markets.
DL gets the revenue premiums that it does because it gets more demand from ACROSS THE US instead of concentrating its network around a few highly competitive metro areas.
You could have easily answered that ORD would have been a better choice than LAX if the point was to serve more of the US more efficiently. ORD and DTW are far better "on the way" from all kinds of cities in the eastern US to NE Asia than SFO is and esp. LAX.
Again, just accept that other airlines have strategies that work as well if not better than UA.
as for the 787 and the huge MAX order, the economics was all about cashing in on the customer credits that Boeing gave United for all of the previous MAX and 787 delays. Problem is that the credits are essentially worthless because they can't deliver the aircraft on time.
The A350 is simply a more capable aircraft; on a per seat basis, the A350-900 is comparable to the 787-9 with greater range.
The A350-1000 is simply the most capable and efficient large widebody - and UA could have had it but they were dazzled by cheap prices from Boeing.
and I would strongly bet that DL will put fewer seats on its 35Ks than UA has on its 777Ws.
DL will have no shortage of routes where they can put 35Ks and have no problem filling them with very good yields including on routes that no 787 can fly.
Yes exactly. We agree.
The US3 operate networks. And UA’s network is strong than DL’s thanks to its stronger international gateways that have higher O&D and high-yield customers who don’t want to connect, along with a huge fleet of fuel efficient and highly-capable 787s.
Maybe if DL had more 787s they'd be able to more effectively serve (and by that I mean serve at all) any of the markets they pulled out of that UA serves profitably, with up to four flights a day.
PEK, HKG, KIX, SIN, MNL, DEL, plus CHC, MEL, and anything else I'm forgetting.
DL doesn't need 787s in order to do any of that.
They have a fleet of A330NEOs and 350s that is growing faster than AA or UA's.
And DL's international fleet is far more fuel efficient and capable already, and that advantage will only grow with the arrival of the A350-1000.
btw, it is funny how defensive AA and UA fans are of the 787 when UA still has A350s on order but...
DL doesn't need 787s in order to do any of that.
They have a fleet of A330NEOs and 350s that is growing faster than AA or UA's.
And DL's international fleet is far more fuel efficient and capable already, and that advantage will only grow with the arrival of the A350-1000.
btw, it is funny how defensive AA and UA fans are of the 787 when UA still has A350s on order but has kicked the can down the road a million times and AA ditched its own A350 order.
I'm going on record that UA will take delivery of the A350 sometime in the 2030s in part because they will see what DL can do with it and will get tired of seeing DL grow in places that UA used to serve with 787s.
The whiplash on here talking about how great the A350 is will be mind-blowing when UA decides to firm up its order.
and, Mark, going out of your way to fly routes is far from equating to serving markets the best.
DTW is simply the best geographically US gateway to Asia for the eastern US (it could be Chicago if UA flew anything more than to Tokyo) while SEA is the best geographically positioned gateway to Asia for all of the continental US.
SFO is very close to being well positioned for most of the US and is a huge local market but LAX is a larger local market to most of Asia.
As much as you want to think otherwise, UA is not going to own LAX either domestically or internationally. DL is not through growing and at best it will be a highly competitive gateway.
Given that AA came the closest to maintaining its position domestically at LAX but fizzled out pretty quickly internationally, UA has a whole lot of work to do to offset the couple destinations more it serves internationally over the size of DL's international lead.
Surprisingly, no digit '8' in the flight number either way.
Great move by United.
And this coincides with the (effective immediately) expanded visa-free rules for visitors to China. These vary by country but US visitors, for example, now get 10 days of visa-free travel.
It's time to end the Tim Dunn nonsense, or else just accept that the comments on this blog have been hijacked to the extent they're no longer worth reading. It's a shame; the comments used to be interesting and relevant.
you need only look at the timestamps on the comments below to see how many times I, or Delta, was mentioned before I ever joined the conversation.
As much as you or others may not like it, there is a cottage industry in DL vs. UA internet rivalry.
and, those UA fans that will go to their graves convinced that UA's international system is untouchable probably don't want to look at 3Q2024 capacity and revenue...
you need only look at the timestamps on the comments below to see how many times I, or Delta, was mentioned before I ever joined the conversation.
As much as you or others may not like it, there is a cottage industry in DL vs. UA internet rivalry.
and, those UA fans that will go to their graves convinced that UA's international system is untouchable probably don't want to look at 3Q2024 capacity and revenue data for DL and UA because DL grew its international network across both the Atlantic and Pacific at a faster rate than UA - and based on schedules that have been announced for 2025, those trends are going to continue.
I have said for years that if UA can make as much money flying international as its fans think they do, DL will jump in and will make more money per every added ASM because DL's international profits are already higher than UA's. and let's not forget that DL suffered from the Crowd Strike outage in the 3rd quarter.
oh, and the DOT has released 3rd quarter profitability by global region.
As usual, AA continues to lose money flying the Atlantic and Pacific.
Also as usual, DL made more than UA on its international network in the 3rd quarter... DL made 28% more profits than UA in Latin America and 68% more across the Atlantic. Across the Pacific, DL made 85% of UA's profits flying 48% of UA's capacity. and 32% more domestically on 10% more capacity.
And for those that will invariably say those numbers are fake and all made up, my invitation will still be to recalculate the regional profits the way you think they should appear but be sure to make sure the bottom line doesn't change. You can change the size of the pieces of the pie but the size of the pie can't change.
Game on....
Tim, you have been asked this so many times and you never answer, probably because it disproves your “figures” on international performance.
But, if DL outperforms UA in so many regions, yet UA’s financial performance is so close to DL’s, where does UA outperform DL?
This is the point where you say UA outperforms DL domestically or you admit your international performance numbers mean nothing since there is no single approved way to account...
Tim, you have been asked this so many times and you never answer, probably because it disproves your “figures” on international performance.
But, if DL outperforms UA in so many regions, yet UA’s financial performance is so close to DL’s, where does UA outperform DL?
This is the point where you say UA outperforms DL domestically or you admit your international performance numbers mean nothing since there is no single approved way to account for regional performance.
Which one is it?
Mark,
UA's financial performance is not "so close" to DL's.
DL's net profit for the 3rd quarter was $1.272 billion and $2.614 B YTD
UA's $965 million and $2.164 B YTD
in other words, UA's 3rd quarter net income was 75% of DL's and its YTD is 82% of DL's.
UAL's market cap is about 75% of DL's right now.
The question which you can't and won't answer is where UA, underperforms...
Mark,
UA's financial performance is not "so close" to DL's.
DL's net profit for the 3rd quarter was $1.272 billion and $2.614 B YTD
UA's $965 million and $2.164 B YTD
in other words, UA's 3rd quarter net income was 75% of DL's and its YTD is 82% of DL's.
UAL's market cap is about 75% of DL's right now.
The question which you can't and won't answer is where UA, underperforms DL since UA flies more ASMs and yet makes less profit.
and, don't mention the refinery. It is contributing next to nothing.
and don't forget that UA has yet to settle with its FAs and its mechanics are due to open their contract; both work groups are not working at rates comparable to their peers at DL.
so, mark, tell us where UA underperforms DL and not the other way around.
One, those figures YTD are based on close to $45 billion in revenue, so a few hundred million is not as significant as you think. Plus the numbers are getting closer.
Two, UA underperforms in the number of fortress hubs, along with ATL having CPEs in the $2 range. In the areas DL is forced to compete (LAX, SEA), they don’t do as well financially. DL also gets billions more in credit card revenue,...
One, those figures YTD are based on close to $45 billion in revenue, so a few hundred million is not as significant as you think. Plus the numbers are getting closer.
Two, UA underperforms in the number of fortress hubs, along with ATL having CPEs in the $2 range. In the areas DL is forced to compete (LAX, SEA), they don’t do as well financially. DL also gets billions more in credit card revenue, though UA will change that when the next contract is negotiated.
It’s amazing how quickly UA is closing the gap, even with DL’s structure advantages. But UA is closing the gap.
As Brett Snyder himself said, talking to you is like being in an endless argument loop. I need to take his advice and step out of this endless loop. You clearly have the time and mental energy to do this. I have no idea how.
Mark,
you cherrypick what you want to believe about UA while ignoring that the denominator is also changing.
We all get that DL and UA are leading the industry and UA has done a phenomenal gap of closing the gap in revenue production and earnings with DL which is still in the leadership position.
Yes, UA is trying to address its domestic revenue shortfall but it is doing it from high cost airports and...
Mark,
you cherrypick what you want to believe about UA while ignoring that the denominator is also changing.
We all get that DL and UA are leading the industry and UA has done a phenomenal gap of closing the gap in revenue production and earnings with DL which is still in the leadership position.
Yes, UA is trying to address its domestic revenue shortfall but it is doing it from high cost airports and UA's strategy is to dump capacity into its own hubs using mainline aircraft by connecting at much higher cost airports (your own admission) than DL. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that UA will be pushing a rope uphill trying to close the domestic revenue gap w/ not just DL but also AA and WN, none of which have shown any interest in letting UA achieve that goal. DL has specifically said it is not slowing up growing its domestic gap to maintain its competitive position and to keep enough cheap seats in the market.
You also can't admit that if UA can make money in international markets, DL can also. DL understands just as well that UA succeeds overall because of its international network like UA understands that DL's success is rooted in its domestic strength.
You can talk about hubs all you want but DL simply generates more revenue from its larger network than UA and has a greater likelihood of growing international with its more fuel efficient fleet and JVs as well as history in Asia than UA does growing domestically for reasons above.
As for credit card deals, maybe UA will get a great credit card deal the next time but they totally missed that the basis of credit card deals as being domestic strength until a couple years ago.
Scott Kirby has realized a whole lot of things that have driven DL's success - and has tried to copy them. But UA's massive orders are trickling it, UA still uses far more high cost RJs than DL, UA's conversion of aircraft to NEXT has taken way longer than UA planned and UA execs THEMSELVES have realized that the massive growth they wanted would be financially bad for UA so they have slowed their growth - something you can't accept they are doing.
And you still think that DL is standing still. It is not. We don't know all of the initiatives they will come up with up for the next five years. We know they intend to keep growing their network (LAX, SEA, SLC, BOS), will develop their JVs (Latam, KE esp.), and will make lots of money on their engine MRO contracts which they largely are not doing now because of parts shortages. DL simply has a lower cost platform for growth than UA which will have to spend enormously to grow its network. and UA still has the oldest fleet in the US and the oldest and least efficient widebody fleet in the world among major global airlines.
Yes, let UA compete to close the gap but the reality is that it isn't happening and DL still managed to outperform UA during the summer on the bottom line despite the CrowdStrike disaster at DL.
competition is great but the insufferable UA is untouchable and will kick your butt is not only factually wrong but it is nauseating to read for the cultlike inability you and others have to accept reality.
"It's time to end the Tim Dunn nonsense"
Yeah, please. But that would mean stopping all the imitator accounts, who still somehow think they're funny years later. And stopping the baiting for him in every other friggin comment.
Just … ignore … him. Clearly he has some mental issues. The more people keep replying to his nonsense, the worst his issues seem to get.
As much as we can debate airline strategies, as a United flyer, it is amazing to see the growth this company has launched in markets to Africa/Asia. Truly exceptional.
I was surprised United didn’t already fly from LAX to Beijing, but they do to China. Los Angeles is an obvious destination. Also surprised to see that Beijing is still PEK.
Smart move, nice to finally see a bit of strategic network innovation from a US carrier.
The discussion managed to light up this rather mundane article about 3 potential new flights/week that is driven as much by Scott Kirby's need to prove that he can succeed at a route that United lost tens of millions on - every year that it flew it.
And in the process, the folks who were convinced that United can do no wrong and its TPAC system is invincible were flushed out
the fact that this...
The discussion managed to light up this rather mundane article about 3 potential new flights/week that is driven as much by Scott Kirby's need to prove that he can succeed at a route that United lost tens of millions on - every year that it flew it.
And in the process, the folks who were convinced that United can do no wrong and its TPAC system is invincible were flushed out
the fact that this article is now on the 3rd page of Ben's site and still drawing plenty of activity shows how little anesthesia was used and how raw the wound is for some people
Show us on the doll where Scott Kirby hurt you. We get that Scott’s career trajectory has long been a point of jealousy and embarrassment for you given your short lived career, but that has nothing to do with how UA has a larger and more profitable system to Asia than Delta or even Air Canada from North America. Or that DL doesn’t serve any routes from Asia from the Northeast or doesn’t serve the Middle East and South Asia at all.
You can always count on the ignorant troll, Tim Dunn, to go absolutely bonkers about... well, anything he can somehow relate to Delta regardless of how little the article relates to it.
Tim, your obsession with United's Asia dominance amongst the US3 is just weird.
Get some mental help.
I wonder if there is enough demand and the reason for wanting this route since their alliance partner Air China offers this route
Wait, US Airlines are allowed 50 weekly flights between Los Angeles and Beijing? Surely that's the total allowance between all city pairs in the two countries and not just for this one route.
Yes, 50 weekly flights is the total allowance for all routes between China and the U.S.A., so 50 each for American and Chinese carriers. I think the Los Angeles and Beijing mention was a mistake. @Lucky
That is correct.
@ Tim Dunn -- "The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity."
May I ask, do you consider yourself to be capable of seeing yourself and/or Delta with any kind of objectivity? A yes or no answer is fine.
yes.
and to flip your question on its head.
Why is so hard for you to note what UA is not operating to E. Asia from its eastern US hubs but somehow manage to insert what DL does from LAX?
I realize you are here to stir the pot and create page clicks but the whole reason I post as much as I do is because there is an incredible lack of objectivity not just from you but from the UA fan kids.
@ Tim Dunn -- "Why is so hard for you to note what UA is not operating to E. Asia from its eastern US hubs but somehow manage to insert what DL does from LAX?"
Because this post is about a transpacific flight from LAX, and not about the A350-1000, or Delta's ability to get a revenue premium?
No, Ben, the flight is about China.
It is relevant to note that UA's China and HKG system has been reduced to flights from LAX and SFO.
Just as it is true that UA used to serve India from multiple gateways and is now reduced to a single route from EWR to DEL that only works at one time a day - they couldn't even make their 2nd daily flight work.
You are worse that...
No, Ben, the flight is about China.
It is relevant to note that UA's China and HKG system has been reduced to flights from LAX and SFO.
Just as it is true that UA used to serve India from multiple gateways and is now reduced to a single route from EWR to DEL that only works at one time a day - they couldn't even make their 2nd daily flight work.
You are worse that the mental midgets on a.net that insistently cherrypick what you want to make team A look better or team B look worse.
What AA, DL or UA do from LAX to Australia has no bearing on what UA will or will not do to China. UA's HKG service from LAX MIGHT be relevant.
The simple facts are that DL is the largest airline at LAX by a wide amount even though UA is the largest international carrier there.
AA and DL both manage to serve China from hubs outside of CA; DL has service from two hubs outside of CA - SEA and DTW and will add LAX.
The reason so many discussions turn into pissing matches is because you - unlike a.net - aren't even willing to provide accurate and meaningful comparisons.
The reason why the A350-1000 comes up is because it is so much larger and more capable of an aircraft than anything UA has.
You were correct to note that the KE/OZ merger approval - which has now been received from the DOJ - will open enormous doors for DL in the Pacific.
90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s (they fly DTW-PVG with their earliest build 359s) and because DL is not focused on building the largest hub but connecting more of the US to more of Asia -and that is what they already do for China better than UA and that will increase exponentially.
You are your and your readers' own worst enemy.
Act like you are really here to provide an objective service to your readers instead of childishly picking and choosing whatever matters because it will generate more page clicks or support your fetishes against someone who isn't afraid to tell you that you made a stupid mistake in how you handled Egypt.
you are a sad little man, Tim.
How you even take yourself seriously is amazing to me.
"90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s"
Where do you think Delta is flying with the A350 that United can't go to with the 77W or 789? You don't seem to...
you are a sad little man, Tim.
How you even take yourself seriously is amazing to me.
"90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s"
Where do you think Delta is flying with the A350 that United can't go to with the 77W or 789? You don't seem to know much about the capability of the aircraft.
Delta is a very weak second at their TPAC hub in SEA with Alaska quickly getting widebody aircraft while Delta is in last place among the alliances in SoCal. Where exactly do you think Delta is trying to fly from the West Coast that United's 787s or A350s can't fly? lol.
You are so weird... lol
I'm actually quite happy.
You only wish I was sad to make YOU feel better.
And you are all over the board.
If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?
The simple fact is that the 787 is far less capable which is why UA can't even make ORD-DEL work.
As for hubs, you can toot...
I'm actually quite happy.
You only wish I was sad to make YOU feel better.
And you are all over the board.
If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?
The simple fact is that the 787 is far less capable which is why UA can't even make ORD-DEL work.
As for hubs, you can toot UA's SFO hub all you want - and I have never decried how large of a hub it is - but you simply cannot accept that UA has ceded large parts of the eastern US to Asia network outside of Tokyo in order to build up UA's CA hubs.
Objectivity is to ACCURATELY note that DL is far stronger to E. Asia from east of the Rockies while UA dominates CA.
As for AS, you dream about what AS will do because you are incapable to grasp that DL's SEA TPAC gateway is the 2nd largest in the US by destinations to E. Asia behind UA at SFO.
Weird is being incapable of admitting those basic facts and others because YOUR entire self-image is wrapped up in UA's dominance.
You and a whole lot of other people are unable to accept that the completion of the KE/OZ will lead to significant expansion for DL not just to ICN but also throughout E. Asia as part of the JV.
As long as you and Ben and anyone else distorts and cherrypicks facts, I have a reason to come to this forum and set things straight.
you have serious mental issues.
Rather than reply to your 11 paragraph of illogical reasoning, I'll just let you go find your meds. Trying to find obscure ways to make Delta look bigger than UA in Asia is just... dumb
Get some mental help. you spend way too much time embarrassing yourself and the airline you love.
I don't have and don't need meds.
I do expect objectivity and accuracy to come from this site and for people like you that want to comment to accept reality, not your distorted view of the world that sees United as some untouchable deity of aviation and everyone else as pond scum.
I don't have to find ways to make Delta look better in Asia.
DL is half the size of UA across the...
I don't have and don't need meds.
I do expect objectivity and accuracy to come from this site and for people like you that want to comment to accept reality, not your distorted view of the world that sees United as some untouchable deity of aviation and everyone else as pond scum.
I don't have to find ways to make Delta look better in Asia.
DL is half the size of UA across the Pacific but made 80% of the profits that UA made.
I certainly don't doubt what UA has accomplished across the Pacific after DL decided to give up its position as the largest airline.
You and others simply cannot accept that DL still has enormous strengths in the cities in Asia it does serve and more importantly you cannot accept that DL will grow and will do it at a faster rate than UA - which means that UA's share lead will fall.
"If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?"
This has been said to you repeatedly. All of the destinations served were cut either because of the pandemic, or related to the blocking of Russian airspace. This has nothing to do with aircraft capability, it's about the profitability of additional flying hours burning fuel to go around...
"If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?"
This has been said to you repeatedly. All of the destinations served were cut either because of the pandemic, or related to the blocking of Russian airspace. This has nothing to do with aircraft capability, it's about the profitability of additional flying hours burning fuel to go around Russia. Detroit is closer than EWR and IAD therefore the economics are different. What is also true, is UA can still service those markets from the West Coast more profitably without a significant detour.
What is also true what while DL is bigger than UA at LAX, DL had the same opportunity that UA had to serve PVG/HKG/PEK from LAX, and has chosen not to compete? Even though these are the largest markets in the US to those markets? Why?
do you seriously think that DL has different access to Russian airspace than United?
DL manages to fly from DTW to PVG and ICN but UA can't figure out how to get there from ORD- which is shorter?
As for the profit excuse - which everyone loves to trash when I bring it up - DL has made more money through the 1st quarters of 2024 (the latest that has been reported) across the Pacific...
do you seriously think that DL has different access to Russian airspace than United?
DL manages to fly from DTW to PVG and ICN but UA can't figure out how to get there from ORD- which is shorter?
As for the profit excuse - which everyone loves to trash when I bring it up - DL has made more money through the 1st quarters of 2024 (the latest that has been reported) across the Pacific even though DL is half the size of UA in terms of revenue.
I'm not arguing that DL hasn't added new flights from LAX to Asia.
I am arguing that DL is still larger and DL serves more of Asia from the eastern US than UA does
and DL will be announcing LAX-ICN soon. And it will be an early A350-1000 route.
and part of the beauty of the A350-1000 as well as the A350-900 is that they not only have more range but also are both more economical than the 777Ws and 777Es that UA uses across the Pacific.
Is it possible that you can admit that part of the reason why DL is more profitable is because it burns less fuel and has aircraft that really can fly 16-17 hour flights from the East Coast to Asia?
Time to put the drinks down, Tim. You're in your crazy drunk era
the only person that is drunk is someone that thinks that AS' capacity on the west coast has anything to do with AA - and that would decidedly not be me.
You live in a fantasy land of denial about AA that is just as bad as the arrogance of UA fan kids that think their position of dominance will remain forever.
Given that DL has already made more money flying the Pacific...
the only person that is drunk is someone that thinks that AS' capacity on the west coast has anything to do with AA - and that would decidedly not be me.
You live in a fantasy land of denial about AA that is just as bad as the arrogance of UA fan kids that think their position of dominance will remain forever.
Given that DL has already made more money flying the Pacific in 2024 than UA and DL is getting much more fuel efficient aircraft, I am betting that DL will find all the reasons and success in the world to take share from UA.
You live your dream, tim.
Everyone needs their passport sugarplum fairy to give them a new reality when their current one is out of whack with reality.
Glad you have dreams of Glen to keep you warm at night.
I guess if you don’t realize how the aa and as relationship enhances both sides in SoCal, you’re dumber than most thought you already were.
But put the drinks down. You sound dumb.
Tim, DL has no choice but to run a PVG flight from DTW (a flight that is useless to the western half of the country) since they already have one out of SEA and have been unable to compete to China, thus far, out of LAX.
California is by far the biggest market to China in the US, and DL has been unable to get past UA’s strength. Yes DL is bigger than UA...
Tim, DL has no choice but to run a PVG flight from DTW (a flight that is useless to the western half of the country) since they already have one out of SEA and have been unable to compete to China, thus far, out of LAX.
California is by far the biggest market to China in the US, and DL has been unable to get past UA’s strength. Yes DL is bigger than UA in LAX, but that makes it even more telling that UA is significantly bigger there, internationally, than DL. UA is double daily to HKG, a market DL was unable to compete in at all, in addition to the PVG flight.
UA has significant service to Tokyo from the eastern half of the US, and service will ramp up again when Russian airspace reopens.
UA has 787s that currently fly double daily SFO-SIN (another market where DL was unable to compete), so I’m not sure which markets you think UA will be unable to serve. And that’s before UA starts taking delivery of the IGW higher performing 787s.
YES. DL had a different access to flying around Russia than United from the East Coast. That's an objective fact.
You have zero evidence of DL being more profitable to Asia than UA. Because the airlines do not break out individual route performance. So stop throwing aggregate numbers around like they help prove your point.
And again for the upteenth time, who cares if DL is 'bigger' from the Eastern US. I would...
YES. DL had a different access to flying around Russia than United from the East Coast. That's an objective fact.
You have zero evidence of DL being more profitable to Asia than UA. Because the airlines do not break out individual route performance. So stop throwing aggregate numbers around like they help prove your point.
And again for the upteenth time, who cares if DL is 'bigger' from the Eastern US. I would bet that UA still carries way more people than DL from the "east"
The A350 is irrelevant. 1) the 787 is doing everything that they DL A350s can do, for cheaper 2) because DL doesn't even have it yet, 2) the CASM between carriers is not equal so it's an irrelevant comparison, 3) UA has a nearly insurmountable advantage in scale, breath, destinations served, loyalty, JV value, and local sales force over DL. So even if DL was flying passengers for no cost, UA would still win.
Are you really going to argue that DL is more profitable today because they fly a fleet that's more fuel efficient, which isn't even on property yet? Maybe it's all that hot air their burning?
And I hate to break it to you, the cost comparisons between the A350s and the 787 isn't straight forward. Stage length, acquisition cost, stage length, crew cost, RASM, cargo, and many other factors matter. None of which you or I have available.
It's really a shame you are such a sycophant for Delta, because they are a great carrier, with great employees, and an impressive merger/turnaround from 2008. But if you're a representative to 'sell' us on Delta's success, you're failing.
Sorry, I should clarify, my comments on the A350, only regarding the -1000. Not the -900 at DL today.
Airlines DO break out their costs and revenue by global region and send it to the DOT
You just don't like the results so pretend it is all fake news.
The fact is that DL most certainly is more profitable than UA not just to Asia but across their entire system.
I suppose you think the $2 billion in higher profits in 2023 and $500 million in 2024 is also fake news?
Feel free...
Airlines DO break out their costs and revenue by global region and send it to the DOT
You just don't like the results so pretend it is all fake news.
The fact is that DL most certainly is more profitable than UA not just to Asia but across their entire system.
I suppose you think the $2 billion in higher profits in 2023 and $500 million in 2024 is also fake news?
Feel free to let us know where UA actually underperforms DL but it is clear that they do somewhere - a lot of somewheres.
You, in your arrogance, simply can't stand to admit that DL runs not just a better airline but a better business.
Scott Kirby said from the day he started at UA that he was going to close the profit gap with DL. He is still trying and is still not there.
and of course you don't care if DL is bigger from the Eastern US to East Asia - but it is a fact. And you are incapable of admitting that UA really isn't the end all and be all that you think they are.
DTW-PVG is no more about DTW to Asia as it is about the eastern US - a market that UA either doesn't think is worth fighting for any longer.
and DL most certainly does serve the western US to China via SEA, and starting next year, once again from LAX
grow up and accept reality which is that the world is big enough for multiple strong competitors.
You’re missing the part where DL doesn’t serve Asia from the Northeast like AA and UA, and less than Air Canada from Eastern Canada.
Last I checked Delta still isn’t leading in profitability or size in Asia TTM or MRQ. And pretty sure that profitability gap has closed since 2020 and the narrowing in market cap of the top 2 airlines easily reflect that.
Time to grow up and accept reality, Tim.
Feel free to list AC’s daily flights from eastern Canada to E Asia.
Delta is simply larger.
Your fixation w AC is notable to deflect from UA’s weakness.
The data is current and accurate. Delta is more profitable to Asia than United even though UA is twice the size of United
Feel free to list Delta’s flights from the Northeast to Asia. Yes, Air Canada and United are larger to Asia. Yes, United is also more profitable to Asia. You’ve repeated that multiple times, I get your point.
I didn't say that DL flies from the NE to Asia on its own metal.
I did say that DL is larger from ATL to E. Asia than UA
I did say that DL has more flights from its hubs outside of the west coast to E. Asia - ATL, DTW and MSP than UA or AA has from their hubs outside of the west coast.
A few people have spent countless amounts of bandwidth...
I didn't say that DL flies from the NE to Asia on its own metal.
I did say that DL is larger from ATL to E. Asia than UA
I did say that DL has more flights from its hubs outside of the west coast to E. Asia - ATL, DTW and MSP than UA or AA has from their hubs outside of the west coast.
A few people have spent countless amounts of bandwidth talking about AC as if AC's strength makes up for UA's weakness to Asia outside of the west coast.
You see, I am fully capable of understanding where each carrier is strong and highlighting those strengths and weaknesses.
We have proven once again that UA's fankids that at least have participated in this thread are completely incapable of admitting that UA's presence from the eastern US and midwest has been completely gutted while that is the largest part of DL's E. Asian system.
You see, I am capable of understanding that two airlines can thrive and recognize that part of the reason why DL and UA each make so much money is because they do not directly compete against each other near as much as DL or UA compete with AA.
None of which changes that UA's SFO-PEK route was one of its worst performing in terms of loads. It is not about ready to be one of their best performing routes which is what is needed to add even more capacity -but United for years, no decades, has been driven more by status than profits which explains why UA consistently makes less money than DL even though UA flies more capacity including to Asia.
You forgot the part where Delta isn’t even the largest US carrier to Asia from the East Coast, and even behind Air Canada if Eastern Canada is included.
for the concern about Delta, several sources indicate that the DOJ has given its approval to the KE/OZ merger and it will close next week.
DL's growth to Asia including from LAX will accelerate.
And, yes, the A350-1000 will be a regular for DL from LAX.
and DL will continue to grow its Asian network from its hubs in the Eastern US, something UA cannot or does not do from ORD, IAD or EWR...
for the concern about Delta, several sources indicate that the DOJ has given its approval to the KE/OZ merger and it will close next week.
DL's growth to Asia including from LAX will accelerate.
And, yes, the A350-1000 will be a regular for DL from LAX.
and DL will continue to grow its Asian network from its hubs in the Eastern US, something UA cannot or does not do from ORD, IAD or EWR where it previously served China. UA is considerably smaller to Asia from its hubs outside of CA.
and in other news SK declares martial law and SK markets tumble.
weird. I don't recall any concern about Delta on a topic about United's new LAX-PEK route.
Just you off topic again. Last I checked, Delta doesn't serve anywhere in Asia from NYC and nowhere in China from ATL. United does serve Asia from NYC.
Last I checked, United serves Asia from Chicago and Dulles. Delta doesn't do either. But sure... Find your usual way of unusual route sleuthing to prove a point that...
weird. I don't recall any concern about Delta on a topic about United's new LAX-PEK route.
Just you off topic again. Last I checked, Delta doesn't serve anywhere in Asia from NYC and nowhere in China from ATL. United does serve Asia from NYC.
Last I checked, United serves Asia from Chicago and Dulles. Delta doesn't do either. But sure... Find your usual way of unusual route sleuthing to prove a point that everyone knows isn't there. A simple fact remains, United dominates Asia flying of the US3 and will in every way going forward whether from existing wide bodies or wide body order books.
You'll be a lot happier person if you just accept that. Your inability to look at reality when it comes to Delta's current and long term place in the Pacific is just tragic.
Why do you care so much that Delta is in a long term second place to United in the Pacific? Get a grip.
Ben said it right in the article.
Because he loves to stir the pot and compare what UA does at LAX to what DL and AA do.
He never bothers to note how pathetically weak UA is to Asia outside of CA compared to DL or even AA.
"Asian network" - you mean HND and ICN?
@Timm Dunn
Your constant pathetic hoping Delta will out perform United in Asia is laughable
Seattle will NEVER be SFO
United has SFO, LAX, And Guam as hubs and will always be the leader in flying to Asia.
No one cares about Detroit, Salt Lake City, and MSP, and BOS for flying to Asia. Heck they barely care about Seattle. Lmfao
you love to caveat "outside of UA's CA hubs" as if that isn't a massive qualifier to this discussion lol
the fact of that matter is, UA offers 1 stop itineraries via SFO or LAX to TYO, ICN, TPE, HKG, PVG, SIN, and PEK (ie, every tier 1 business destination in Asia) from every major city in the US, including most of DL's hubs. On the other hand, HKG, SIN, and PEK are all 2...
you love to caveat "outside of UA's CA hubs" as if that isn't a massive qualifier to this discussion lol
the fact of that matter is, UA offers 1 stop itineraries via SFO or LAX to TYO, ICN, TPE, HKG, PVG, SIN, and PEK (ie, every tier 1 business destination in Asia) from every major city in the US, including most of DL's hubs. On the other hand, HKG, SIN, and PEK are all 2 stops from non DL hubs (Origin -> DL hub -> ICN -> HKG/SIN/PEK). Until DL adds those destinations, its Asia coverage is going to be worse than UA's.
This doesn't even get into how the UA/NH JV dominates US-Japan O/D - they've got a larger market share in larger market than US-Korea O/D.
UA has three flights to Asia from NYC (HND, NRT, DEL) while DL has zero.
UA also flies to Asia from IAD and ORD, so UA has much bigger business centers covered than DL does.
And of course you don’t even acknowledge that it’s the Russian overflight issues that are behind the temporary suspension in the other flights.
Even with the suspension of those flights, UA service to Asia absolutely dwarfs that of DL.
I love to wind all of you UA fans up because you consistently prove several things:
1. The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity.
2. UA is simply incapable of doing what it did pre-pandemic and pre-Ukraine war and DL has developed a route system and fleet that can continue to deliver from the eastern US.
It is...
I love to wind all of you UA fans up because you consistently prove several things:
1. The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity.
2. UA is simply incapable of doing what it did pre-pandemic and pre-Ukraine war and DL has developed a route system and fleet that can continue to deliver from the eastern US.
It is no surprise the jeers that UA fan kiddos have for any other hub - as highlighted by the fact that a. UA doesn't even serve JFK, the largest international airport in the NE while DL serves all 3 b. UA isn't the largest airline at either LAX or in NYC combined - DL offers more than 15% more flights and c. DL is taking delivery of aircraft that seat not only more people but also will fly further which is why DL can serve more of Asia not just from ATL, DTW and MSP than UA can serve from its hubs but DL will be able to fly further from LAX and JFK than UA can from EWR and carry more passengers in the process.
Don't talk about how big UA's current fleet is but about how much either carrier will be and the capabilities each will have. The simple reality - whether you want to hear it or not - is that UA's international fleet is much older than DL's, DL's A350s are far more capable - right now - and the A350-1000 will be far more capable and efficient.
The KE/OZ merger is huge for reshaping aviation and giving DL the platform to grow across East Asia. The A350-1000s will facilitate that growth throughout all of Asia.
UA's route network to China is much smaller as a percentage of what it was pre-covid than DL's.
They can't fly from IAD, ORD and EWR to China or HKG so have no choice but to do it from CA.
There are literally scores of cities that DL can better connect to Asia from its Eastern US hubs than UA can from its CA hubs; and given that ICN is a far larger hub than HND or NRT, DL can and will carry more passengers to Asia through its JV partner than UA can through its own.
Have a little humble pie and realize that DL is outsmarting UA in its strongest region.
Too many words and not enough substance.
You could have just said Delta serves 2 destinations and 3 routes in Asia excluding ICN and HND. Only one route in the entire Asia system is double daily. Doesn’t serve any Pacific routes from the Northeast, doesn’t serve the Middle East, doesn’t serve India, doesn’t serve South East Asia, doesn’t serve China outside Shanghai, doesn’t serve Japan outside Haneda.
Vancouver is a smaller market than...
Too many words and not enough substance.
You could have just said Delta serves 2 destinations and 3 routes in Asia excluding ICN and HND. Only one route in the entire Asia system is double daily. Doesn’t serve any Pacific routes from the Northeast, doesn’t serve the Middle East, doesn’t serve India, doesn’t serve South East Asia, doesn’t serve China outside Shanghai, doesn’t serve Japan outside Haneda.
Vancouver is a smaller market than Seattle and Canada a smaller market than the US, yet Air Canada is outplaying and out maneuvering Delta in Asia.
I’m sure the geopolitical situation in Seoul will do wonders for Delta in Asia.
And all you or Ben or anyone else needs to admit is that UA's Asia/Pacific network from the Eastern US is a shadow of its former self.
And the reason why UA has no choice but to keep trying to make flights from LAX work is because there is no more demand from SFO and they can't make eastern US to Asia work.
That is all YOU have to say.
But instead you...
And all you or Ben or anyone else needs to admit is that UA's Asia/Pacific network from the Eastern US is a shadow of its former self.
And the reason why UA has no choice but to keep trying to make flights from LAX work is because there is no more demand from SFO and they can't make eastern US to Asia work.
That is all YOU have to say.
But instead you focus on DL while being unable to note that DL is still the largest US carrier at HND and also has a JV hub at ICN that is far larger than anything AA or UA have in E. Asia.
It would be too much for you or Ben or anyone else to demonstrate that kind of objectivity.
As for AC, Delta handedly beats them in the number of gateways to Asia - but since you are all about cherrypicking facts, you would never be able to admit that reality
you can and do wish that S. Korea will melt down but that is far less likely to happen than that China will melt down.
You should have just said that Delta is the only carrier to not serve Asia from the Northeast. I didn’t mention United in any of my comments but you make a good point that they’re the largest carrier from the east coast to Asia and the only airline with two east coast gateways serving Asia. And yes, you are correct that Air Canada serves more gateways in Asia than Delta.
Also thank you for pointing...
You should have just said that Delta is the only carrier to not serve Asia from the Northeast. I didn’t mention United in any of my comments but you make a good point that they’re the largest carrier from the east coast to Asia and the only airline with two east coast gateways serving Asia. And yes, you are correct that Air Canada serves more gateways in Asia than Delta.
Also thank you for pointing out Haneda is larger than Incheon and isn’t undergoing martial law and that United and Delta have the same number of flights to Haneda but Delta has less everywhere else outside ICN.
Try to be more objective and accurate in your takes and you’ll be taken seriously.
as long as you exclude Atlanta from the East coast.
I'm sure you will say that ATL is not an east coast state but a map will quickly prove you wrong.
DL operates more flights from ATL to E. Asia than UA does from EWR.
and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers...
as long as you exclude Atlanta from the East coast.
I'm sure you will say that ATL is not an east coast state but a map will quickly prove you wrong.
DL operates more flights from ATL to E. Asia than UA does from EWR.
and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does.
The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
"The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth"
Who says this? lmao "Dread the day"?! lol. Tim calling others arrogant? Dude, it's a public company that...
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
"The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth"
Who says this? lmao "Dread the day"?! lol. Tim calling others arrogant? Dude, it's a public company that is woefully pathetic in so many ways and, in some ways, better than the US3 competitors. But Delta (or UA and AA) certainly isn't worthy of making such a joke out of the one life you have to live like you do...
What a pathetic idiot. Fired by Delta and still in love with them.
Put the drinks down, Timmy.
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
This only reads like the ramblings of a 7-year old child throwing a tantrum... "Oh yeah, you just wait till my big brother gets here!"
Sorry, Tim. DL still isn’t the largest US carrier from the East Coast to Asia including Atlanta. And if you include Air Canada’s presence in just Toronto, than Delta is also behind Air Canada. There’s over 10 carriers that serve Asia from the Northeast and NYC. Delta isn’t on of them.
The day Delta carried more passengers and revenue to Asia than other carriers was in the past, not in the future.
You’re such...
Sorry, Tim. DL still isn’t the largest US carrier from the East Coast to Asia including Atlanta. And if you include Air Canada’s presence in just Toronto, than Delta is also behind Air Canada. There’s over 10 carriers that serve Asia from the Northeast and NYC. Delta isn’t on of them.
The day Delta carried more passengers and revenue to Asia than other carriers was in the past, not in the future.
You’re such a low bit player in the aviation space incapable of objectivity or truth.
just the facts. list them.
AC does not operate a half dozen flights from eastern Canada to E. Asia as DL does just from ATL and DTW.
and AC does not have a JV w/ the largest carrier across the Pacific -even before their merger with OZ
Not that facts have bothered tim
But yyz smokes both atl and dtw to east Asia with four destinations on AC to east Asia, 8 to Asia . YUL flies to the same two destinations as atl
But sure, some random new incorrect comparison to AC now that tim has clearly been proven an idiot, once again, about delta and united to asia on an article about lax-Pek.
Tim, get some help with...
Not that facts have bothered tim
But yyz smokes both atl and dtw to east Asia with four destinations on AC to east Asia, 8 to Asia . YUL flies to the same two destinations as atl
But sure, some random new incorrect comparison to AC now that tim has clearly been proven an idiot, once again, about delta and united to asia on an article about lax-Pek.
Tim, get some help with your drinking. It’s so incredibly obvious when you are. You say stupid things and look dumber than usual in the comments
please list the DAILY flights AC has from YUL and YYZ to E. Asia.
I'll wait.
Not another new caveat from Tim when proven wrong about AC out of YYZ and yul…?
Give it up, tim
It’s a new day. How many times do you have to be proven wrong before you just stfu?
Just the facts, Air Canada from Eastern Canada or United from the East Coast have more flights to Asia than Delta in the East Coast . In fact, Delta has 0 flights outside of East Asia unlike Air Canada, American, and United.
So Tim, I know you won't respond because I will be using facts.
Year to date United flew 20,596,497 people (24.5%) through EWR and LGA, Delta did 20,141,983 (23.9%) in the same time out of EWR, LGA, and JFK.
Looking at hubs:
DL flew 19,064,207 people on 181,067 flights out of both LGA and JFK
UA flew 19,254,101 people on 156,827 flights out of EWR alone.
So DL needs 2 airports...
So Tim, I know you won't respond because I will be using facts.
Year to date United flew 20,596,497 people (24.5%) through EWR and LGA, Delta did 20,141,983 (23.9%) in the same time out of EWR, LGA, and JFK.
Looking at hubs:
DL flew 19,064,207 people on 181,067 flights out of both LGA and JFK
UA flew 19,254,101 people on 156,827 flights out of EWR alone.
So DL needs 2 airports to compete with just 1 UA hub.
Addressing UA's route network to China. Most of those flights are not possible due to airspace closure. Also the US - China market has crashed, as we can see by the lower demand on all sides, not just UA. I think it shows how strong UA due to their ability to send all of their extra lift to new PROFITABLE destinations. Comparing HND to ICN is dumb, while I can't find the split of HND assuming an 50/50 ANA could move minimum 30M people through it and using the logic at ICN KE they moved around 25M, at 5M difference. This doesn't include NRT which would increase the difference. Also DL/KE offer about 18 flights a day US to South Korea, while UA/NH offer around 25.
So please show me how DL is outsmarting UA, please be a big boy and use facts to prove me wrong. Also if you don't respond to this I am going to assume you can't be an adult and admit that you might be wrong.
first, it is simply BS to argue that UA can't fly ORD-PVG but DL can manage to fly DTW-PVG.
Either the 787 is incapable of doing what the A350-900 can do or UA thinks they are better off competing from the west coast -which is more competitive and which explains why DL gets a revenue premium.
As for NYC, I have not argued that DL carries more passengers. I have argued that DL has...
first, it is simply BS to argue that UA can't fly ORD-PVG but DL can manage to fly DTW-PVG.
Either the 787 is incapable of doing what the A350-900 can do or UA thinks they are better off competing from the west coast -which is more competitive and which explains why DL gets a revenue premium.
As for NYC, I have not argued that DL carries more passengers. I have argued that DL has more flights -even with the ATC restrictions on LGA and JFK.
And DL carries far fewer connecting passengers thru NYC than UA so carries far more local NYC passengers
DL has more potential to upgauge flights including at LGA to push more capacity through NYC than UA does.
EWR is at its maximum because EWR is a two runway operation while JFK is usually a 3 runway operation and LGA is a 2 intersecting runway
UA at EWR is shrinking compared to DL at JFK and LGA which is growing. Those facts scare the real UA leaders in Willis Tower who know that a few key DL routes from JFK - such as to ICN and BOM - could permanently end UA's international leadership at JFK.
DL is already larger than UA from NYC to S. America on its own metal, even before adding in LA's flights under the JV.
Scott Kirby did get it right that his predecessors that walked away from JFK made a huge mistake.
AA is not about to walk away from JFK which means that UA is fighting for NYC with one hand tied behind its back.
DL is not going to overtake UA from CA to Asia. It very much has the potential to do it from NYC on top of everything east of the Rockies.
And DL will grow SEA and LAX to E. Asia making UA's single focus on LAX and SFO very vulnerable.
Feel free to keep pounding the keyboard to tell us how great and invincible UA is. Any objective person can see that excuses about the 787's range are shattered by what DL is doing with its A359 and will be bested by the 350-1000s not just from NYC but throughout the US to all of Asia.
UA has no choice but to double down from the west coast to Asia with its 787-9s which seats fewer seats than DL's 350s and 330NEOs .
“ DL is not going to overtake UA to Asia.”
That’s all you needed to say. You should have mentioned that most of Delta’s A359 models aren’t able to serve South Asia, Middle East, South East Asia, Hong Kong, and Melbourne profitability due to the significant payload restrictions.
Just checked, Delta does not have LAX-CDG flight right now. Air France is the only carrier on this route.
Yes they do - DL 290
It will be great to See United Airlines fly from Los Angeles to Beijing.
How long is the flight going to take fron Los Angeles to Beijing
My guess is 11hrs and 45mins
more like 14-15. Air china is currently 15.
UA/CO had SFO/ORD/EWR/IAD - PEK daily. LAX is a logical addition to SFO along the slow recovery path. The same reason they could afford 2x LAX-HKG now.
and that is precisely the point. UA is much smaller to China now than DL or AA is.
The fact that AA and DL both can fly to China from their hubs east of CA while UA cannot or does not speaks volumes about UA's vulnerabilities to Asia.
DL has more service to E. Asia from ATL than UA has from EWR, ORD, IAH or IAD.
UA is currently offering SFO-PVG, SFO-PEK, LAX-PVG, and just bid LAX-PEK
DL is offering DTW-PVG, SEA-PVG, and maybe LAX-PVG if they don't cancel it a third time.
AA is offering DFW-PVG.
.......how is United "much smaller in China" than either of them?
each is much smaller relative to what they were pre-covid.
UA is proportionately smaller than DL than what both were pre-covid.
AA has proportionately shrunk the most.
Tim
You can just say you were wrong. Your attempts to caveat are pretty ridiculous
I get tired of saying the same thing.
United’s size to China is a smaller PERCENTAGE of pre Covid than Delta. American is even smaller.
Delta is the largest compared to percentage of pre COVID size
And yet Delta is still much smaller than United. Repeat after me, Timmy: "Delta is in a lasting second place in the Pacific to United"
Your attempts to change the topic when proven wrong are well-known but even this is pretty sad, even for you.
Tim, you might want to correct yourself. DL still isn’t the largest carrier to China and still hasn’t resumed service to PEK (or even HKG) for that matter.
as a percentage of pre-covid capacity, DL is flying a higher percentage of what it flew than UA.
I don't need to correct anything.
You need to quit arguing and instead admit that UA is not flying EWR, IAD and ORD to PEK or PVG as well as to HKG. UA's entire Chinese and HKG route system is from LAX and SFO.
You’re correct. Delta is not only smaller to China, thanks for reminding us they don’t also serve Hong Kong and are struggling to Taipei.
Given the PEK-USA demographics and Eastern US restrictions, LAX is probably best to handle many US-connecting traffic compared to delay-prone, gate-restricted (construction) SFO for the foreseeable future.
Still surprised united isn't flying lax fra seasonally during summer. Could be a very late flight with timings similar to ua 927. LH would be able to remove their 2nd daily seasonal flight and redirect it to a non SA hub. I'd assume this would be more lucrative than PEK, right?
LH doesn't want UA flying germany LA, they want the market all to themselves.
‘ United serves more long haul destinations out of LAX than Delta’
Quote from Ben is so asking for someone to respond to that with some utter non-related nonsense. Haha.
And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX.
And year to date through the 3rd quarter, DL has earned $2.6 billion in net income compared to $2.1 billion for UA even though UA has flown 5% more RPMs.
apparently all of the int'l growth at LAX and elsewhere across its network isn't as profitable as they would like you to believe - and DL still gets a significant revenue and profit premium.
And,...
And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX.
And year to date through the 3rd quarter, DL has earned $2.6 billion in net income compared to $2.1 billion for UA even though UA has flown 5% more RPMs.
apparently all of the int'l growth at LAX and elsewhere across its network isn't as profitable as they would like you to believe - and DL still gets a significant revenue and profit premium.
And, of course, UA doesn't fly from EWR, IAD or ORD to E. Asia other than Tokyo while DL flies to HND and ICN from MSP and ATL and to HND, ICN, and PVG from DTW.
"And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX."
Biggest metal at LAX while AA's terminal is redone.
But a few extra caveats:
1. Delta is in the smallest alliance at LAX
2. Delta is the smallest airline in Southern California
3. Delta is the smallest loyalty program in Southern California
4. Delta can barely make anything new work without retreating within a month. Remember when LAX-DAL was...
"And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX."
Biggest metal at LAX while AA's terminal is redone.
But a few extra caveats:
1. Delta is in the smallest alliance at LAX
2. Delta is the smallest airline in Southern California
3. Delta is the smallest loyalty program in Southern California
4. Delta can barely make anything new work without retreating within a month. Remember when LAX-DAL was your big talking point? Lol
5. Alliances matter especially when OneWorld dominates coverage in southern california at ALL airports and at LAX just domestically.
Your talking points are adorable but you need some new ones. It's getting pathetic. And you still don't understand revenue accounting.
yes... I don't understand revenue accounting but you make all kinds of statements about size that are flat out wrong because you want AA to be able to call AS' capacity their own.
Newsflash. AA doesn't even have a JV with B6, let alone AS
Feel free to provide actual facts to back up the rest of your claims.
AA has retreated from CA and they won't regrow regardless of whatever terminals they gain....
yes... I don't understand revenue accounting but you make all kinds of statements about size that are flat out wrong because you want AA to be able to call AS' capacity their own.
Newsflash. AA doesn't even have a JV with B6, let alone AS
Feel free to provide actual facts to back up the rest of your claims.
AA has retreated from CA and they won't regrow regardless of whatever terminals they gain. One need only look at AA in NYC to see how long AA has been talking about getting back in the game and are still left hopelessly on the sidellnes.
The way you see the world in such strangle black and white terms and winners and losers only explains even more why you’re so lonely and fired from delta
Or was it drunk behavior?
the way you see the world is "what is AA's is AA's and what is AS' is AA's too" isn't reality, sweet Jane.
AS is a separate company that shares nothing w/ AA. AA is free to pay for access to some of AS' network along w/ some of the marketing benefits of an alliance such as club access and FFP participation.
and of course you result to lies because you can't accept...
the way you see the world is "what is AA's is AA's and what is AS' is AA's too" isn't reality, sweet Jane.
AS is a separate company that shares nothing w/ AA. AA is free to pay for access to some of AS' network along w/ some of the marketing benefits of an alliance such as club access and FFP participation.
and of course you result to lies because you can't accept the truth which I state.
AA shrunk in Chicago, New York and Los Angeles.
DL is still far more profitable than AA and more profitable than UA.
UA is closing the gap but it will still be 20% or more behind DL in profits even though UA flies more seat miles and pollutes more - but generates less revenue
Feel free to prove your name is tim Dunn
Your history on a.net as well as your history at delta is well known. Choose your friends more carefully.
And you clearly don’t know much about the value of AA/as to local travelers to say something so ignorant.
No one said AS was owned by AA lol. Are you really actually this stupid?
You need mental help, “tim”.
Easy to prove you’re not the...
Feel free to prove your name is tim Dunn
Your history on a.net as well as your history at delta is well known. Choose your friends more carefully.
And you clearly don’t know much about the value of AA/as to local travelers to say something so ignorant.
No one said AS was owned by AA lol. Are you really actually this stupid?
You need mental help, “tim”.
Easy to prove you’re not the same guy fired by delta, but you are. Stop denying a past that directly ties to your crazy today. Take a day off drinking, it’ll help your mental health.
in other words, you can't accept the message so you attack the messenger.
I am honored at how badly you want to discredit me.
I have done my job at proving you to be a fraud.
none of which changes that UA is a CA to China airline while DL covers the entire US better with its hubs throughout the US.
You forgot the part where Delta isn’t even a major player in Asia or China and doesn’t serve Beijing, Hong Kong, South Asia, and Southeast Asia.
Ben, doesn't UA also fly to PEK from EWR? Although that flight consistently costs over $10K round-trip (as far as I can tell on Google Flights), not sure what the reason for that is.
It's a route that will never fly until Russian airspace can be used, it's just there as a placeholder so they can keep the slot.
That's a placeholder flight that will always get cancelled/rebooked to something else, so that UA can hold onto it for scheduling/slot purposes.
Similar to HND slot debacle this serves a secondary purpose, blocking competitors.
With fares high and demand still increasing, UA have locked themselves into (and AA/AS/DL out of) a big money maker. How smart.
UA execs just said on their last earnings call that China remains weak... I doubt that changed in the past 5 weeks.
You did get the "block and tackle to keep competitors out" routine correct and UA is still willing to lose money to do those things.
It was multiple flights/week to the S. Pacific last year and now it is just 3X/week to Beijing. Progress. Such progress.
Not true @Tim Dunn. You left out the full quote. Scott Kirby ALSO said that their RASM was increasing thanks to their "full schedule."
So as the schedule improves, revenue does too.
Ed Bastian agrees. DL is launching LAX-PVG.
And let's not forget that UA dropped a couple LAX routes including LAX-AKL.
And don't give me that they have a JV partner flying the route because that is the exact situation with DL on LAX-LHR.
In fact, UA doesn't have a JV partner to LHR so they burnt the furniture to get DL to drop the route on its own metal and then UA dropped back to 1 flight/day.
That my friends, is why DL leads the industry in profitability.
You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes
“ And don't give me that they have a JV partner flying the route because that is the exact situation with DL on LAX-LHR.”
Yeah… it’s not. LHr is the biggest market from lax.
Akl is not that from lax nor has United made some big to do about being something lax, delta has
Cute try though
of course you will justify anything to prevent the legitimate conclusions that any rational and balanced person could see - but then that clearly does not include you
Noted. Insult insult insult.
Because you don’t have a reply to what I said. But thanks for reinforcing my point.
Because there is a difference to delta giving up on lax-Lhr for the second time in very recent memory and leaving it to their bit partner based in LHR.
Vs United leaving lax-akl, a largely tourism Market to, by far, the biggest airline in AkL. And the only year-round operator from lax to akl since delta only kept that marketing gimmick for two months.
What the hell did your parents do to you as a child?
Still no reply. Just sad attempts at a reply. noted.
as I sad, you are capable of justifying your own and UA's actions but cannot accept the fact that there is nothing different from cancelling a flight because your JV partner already flies it.
And the ultimate UA bait and switch is that UA doesn't even serve JFK which is the largest international airport in NYC.
And yet we have heard since the CO merger that UA doesn't need to serve JFK because of...
as I sad, you are capable of justifying your own and UA's actions but cannot accept the fact that there is nothing different from cancelling a flight because your JV partner already flies it.
And the ultimate UA bait and switch is that UA doesn't even serve JFK which is the largest international airport in NYC.
And yet we have heard since the CO merger that UA doesn't need to serve JFK because of its massive EWR hub - which even the Port Authority recognizes is smaller today than it was a year ago while DL is growing.
and UA doesn't serve a single route to Asia other than Tokyo from any hub other than in California.
You are wonderful at picking and choosing the narrative but it is clear that UA is only capable of making California to Asia work along with routes in partnership with its JV partners to Japan.
In contrast, DL serves 3 hubs growing to 4 outside of the west coast to Asia including DTW which serves 3 cities on DL metal.
Those with their eyes wide open know exactly what is happening. UA can't make anything outside of the west coast work to anything other than Tokyo.
By that same logic, outside the east coast Delta serves no destinations in South America unlike American or United.
Outside of HND and ICN, Delta serves only 3 routes in all of Asia, two to PVG and one to TPE.
Outside SEA, Delta is the only North American carrier to service less than 4 Asian destinations.
Delta is also the only Pacific JV carrier not to serve Asia from the Northeast. Delta...
By that same logic, outside the east coast Delta serves no destinations in South America unlike American or United.
Outside of HND and ICN, Delta serves only 3 routes in all of Asia, two to PVG and one to TPE.
Outside SEA, Delta is the only North American carrier to service less than 4 Asian destinations.
Delta is also the only Pacific JV carrier not to serve Asia from the Northeast. Delta is the only North American carrier not to serve India or the Middle East.
Many destinations in Asia are already being served by another North American carrier that isn’t United. There’s an uncontested #2 to Asia and it’s Air Canada. Delta is the only US legacy to lose both titles as the largest and most profitable carrier in an international region.
Tim clearly defines the phrase “the emptiest head rattles the loudest.”
feel free to show me the data but I am pretty sure that DL flies more ASMs across the Pacific than Air Canada.
UA has twice the capacity of DL which has twice the capacity of AA over the Pacific.
India and the Middle East as well as Canada IS part of the SkyTeam TATL JV.
DL's JV partners carry far more traffic to India than AA or UA can fit on their weight...
feel free to show me the data but I am pretty sure that DL flies more ASMs across the Pacific than Air Canada.
UA has twice the capacity of DL which has twice the capacity of AA over the Pacific.
India and the Middle East as well as Canada IS part of the SkyTeam TATL JV.
DL's JV partners carry far more traffic to India than AA or UA can fit on their weight restricted 787s.
DL carries plenty of traffic from Canada to Asia via its US hubs.
You can have your own opinions but you can't make up your own facts.
Just because UA doesn't have a hub in the SE which is where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates or is destined doesn't hurt DL.
IN fact, since you love to talk about JVs. DL/LA is far larger than UA to Latin America. FAR LARGER. DL alone is about 95% of UA's size to Latin America.
and also far more profitable.
“UA has twice the capacity of DL over the Pacific.”
Case closed. Thank you for pointing out that all 3 TATL JV serve India and the Middle East from both sides of the Atlantic excluding Delta.
Yes, you’re right. DL doesn’t have a hub in Florida where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates which hurts the airline.
You’re correct, DL is the smallest US carrier both in profits and size to Latin America and...
“UA has twice the capacity of DL over the Pacific.”
Case closed. Thank you for pointing out that all 3 TATL JV serve India and the Middle East from both sides of the Atlantic excluding Delta.
Yes, you’re right. DL doesn’t have a hub in Florida where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates which hurts the airline.
You’re correct, DL is the smallest US carrier both in profits and size to Latin America and doesn’t serve South America outside the East Coast.
Thank you for pointing out the deficiencies in Delta’s network.
Huh? What is that even supposed to mean?
What is the point of excluding their primary Asian gateway, then comparing it to others? AA serves 5 destinations technically in Asia, but no more than 3 from any single gateway.
That’s exactly my point ConcordeBoy.
first, the discussion is about E. Asia.
DL right now doesn't play in the Middle East or S. Asia. Let AA and UA chalk that up as theirs... even though DL carries as much traffic to India and the Middle East as part of its JVs.
And UA at SFO is the largest to E. Asia. We get that.
The problem is that a whole lot of people can't acknowledge that DL at SEA...
first, the discussion is about E. Asia.
DL right now doesn't play in the Middle East or S. Asia. Let AA and UA chalk that up as theirs... even though DL carries as much traffic to India and the Middle East as part of its JVs.
And UA at SFO is the largest to E. Asia. We get that.
The problem is that a whole lot of people can't acknowledge that DL at SEA IS the 2nd largest gateway to Asia on a US airline as defined by number of destinations served.
AA solely serves E. Asia from DFW and UA's network to E. Asia is solely from CA other than to Tokyo.
In contrast, DL serves E. Asia to 2 or more cities from 4 hubs and to 3 cities from one hub - DTW - and to 4 cities from SEA.
DL's E. Asia network is spread across much more of its network than UA or AA.
and all of this is before the growth of ICN and other points in Asia as a result of approval of the KE/OZ merger approval
Not hard concepts to grasp.
The problem is that AA
“DL right now doesn't play in the Middle East or S. Asia.
And UA at SFO is the largest to E. Asia.”
That’s all you needed to say. Now walk away.
no. what needed to be said - since this article is about China - regardless of whether you or Ben or anyone else can admit it - is that UA doesn't play to China outside of California while DL "plays" not just to China but also to Seoul.
As hard as it is for you to accept or admit, DL and UA's route systems work well together because each build on their strengths and...
no. what needed to be said - since this article is about China - regardless of whether you or Ben or anyone else can admit it - is that UA doesn't play to China outside of California while DL "plays" not just to China but also to Seoul.
As hard as it is for you to accept or admit, DL and UA's route systems work well together because each build on their strengths and DL is far stronger in the eastern US than UA.
DL is growing its presence from its west coast hubs to E. Asia which means that DL will not give up its strength in the eastern US but will continue to grow from the western US.
Add in that DL will be adding larger, more efficient and more capable aircraft while UA's only fuel efficient plane that can cross the Pacific is the 787-9 and it should be easy for any rational and thinking person to see that DL will be a larger airline relative to UA across the Pacific and also a more profitable airline
Your point about how Delta is the only North American carrier to not serve Asia from the Northeast is well noted. Also, the 787 is such a great aircraft that all of Delta’s core partners fly it unlike the A350. VS is no longer taking delivery of all their A350 orders and LA got rid of them completely. Westjet, Aeromexico, China Eastern, Korean Air, Virgin Atlantic, Air France, KLM, and LATAM were all smart enough to do what Delta could not.
CF noted that UA's SFO-PEK route was one of its lowest load factor routes last winter.
If PEK was really performing, I'm pretty sure that AA and DL would figure out to find their way back there.
Apparently, UA has too much money sitting around Chicago so they need to use it to heat the Willis.
I think DL should be more worried about being one of four carriers on SEA-TPE and their corresponding 50% load factor just a few months ago.
UA has shown they’re willing to cut unprofitable routes. As Brett Snyder said, if UA doesn’t cut any routes, they’re not trying hard enough.
Based on UA’s track record of cutting flights that don’t work out, they must see promise in LAX-PEK.
Yes, China is weaker...
I think DL should be more worried about being one of four carriers on SEA-TPE and their corresponding 50% load factor just a few months ago.
UA has shown they’re willing to cut unprofitable routes. As Brett Snyder said, if UA doesn’t cut any routes, they’re not trying hard enough.
Based on UA’s track record of cutting flights that don’t work out, they must see promise in LAX-PEK.
Yes, China is weaker than it was pre-pandemic. Even with LAX-PEK, their schedule will still be a fraction of what it was and yet still much stronger than DL’s China schedule and TPAC schedule in general.
Not even a couple months ago - Delta’s LF on SEA - TPE in October was 59%, an improvement from September’s 51% but still 4th of the carriers and obviously unprofitable. Delta peaked at ~88% LF this summer when 2 other carriers were not serving this route so it’s unlikely it even returns to that level in summer 2025.
Given how things are trending, we’re likely going to see that route go seasonal or entirely bye bye in half a year.
Looking at the data, Delta actually peaked at an 85% LF in June but once a 3rd carrier entered in July they fell to an 80% LF which is widely considered break-even in the industry unless you have very major cargo and business contracts (extremely unlikely given we know China Airlines has the large cargo contracts out of Taiwan).
So given break-even in peak months and money losing at all other times… unless someone leaves the writing is staring at us on the wall
isn't it great, Jeremy, that DL can lose money on yet another flight and still manage to be more profitable across the Pacific than UA?
Feel free to let us know what UA is doing that it can't have twice the profit of DL's profitability since UA has twice the capacity.
Tim’s correct. UA is more profitable and twice the size of Delta across the Pacific.
Don’t worry. United is only flying 3X weekly. Those flights will all be full. Overbooked in economy and empty in business class. China is still rebounding ; two years from now 2027 can be completely different with a big uptick in demand. AA needs is delayed with aircraft deliveries anyways ; also over focused on regional business model. DL and AA no rush to return to mainland China and HK.
United leading the pack when it comes to route diversity again. Yet another reason I've gone from nothing to 1K this year. They're getting a lot right. Even if the clubs are the worst of the big 3.
The fact that you don’t mention that DL’s LAX to SYD is 10 times weekly is blasphemy. Factor in the fact that you haven’t written about Delta agreeing to 98 gates at AUS, you talking negatively about the DL crew in AMS, and there’s no mention of DL utilizing the superior A350-1000 in the Air India Interior Retrofit Delay article is cause for concern. Get it together Ben.
One of your better ones lol
even I had to laugh, mama.
Womp womp… sorry they can’t all be about your cult.
What the hell are you talking about? You want him to do PR for Delta? Go away.
This should not be a surprise. If and when it came the time for United to add more service to PEK, it was going to come from LAX given not just the current restrictions between the US and the PRC for carriers for each country but because of the lack of Russian airspace access for US carriers. C-Suite at UA has repeatedly stated that non-West Coast-East Asia flights, except to TYO, cannot work under the...
This should not be a surprise. If and when it came the time for United to add more service to PEK, it was going to come from LAX given not just the current restrictions between the US and the PRC for carriers for each country but because of the lack of Russian airspace access for US carriers. C-Suite at UA has repeatedly stated that non-West Coast-East Asia flights, except to TYO, cannot work under the present overflight restrictions because of the added time to such routes which ensures that they would lose money. Yes, all those extra minutes add up. Apples and oranges comparison with Delta flying DTW-PVG which is blocked up to 15 hours in the winter. AA's sole PRC flight, DFW-PVG, involves less divergence than DTW-PVG.
Additionally, since Air China has their once daily LAX-PEK fight, it is enticing for UA to start their own LAX-PEK flight as the competition is rather lacking as Air China primarily flies those from Beijing to the LA Basin. UA's proposed timing maximises connections at LAX, not to mention getting the demand from the LA Basin. I am surprised though that UA did not propose to use the remaining twice weekly slots and make this route five times weekly. If and when more weekly slots become available, I presume UA would eventually look to make this daily. AA has given up on all non-JV long-haul flying ex-LAX while UA has been opportunistic in the past several years with LAX Longhaul additions given the slow return of international carriers following the pandemic and AA's withdrawal from LAX-Pacific flying except for LAX-HND/SYD and seasonal LAX-AKL.
With the new US administration, I would be shocked if the Russian airspace situation is still a thing a year from now.
You'll be surprised. Until Putin is no longer in the Kremlin, there will be peace deal, among other things in Ukraine.
My mistake, no* peace deal with the Kremlin. This new Administration won't accept one unless they feel like they're solidly ahead/winning it.
"Until Putin is no longer in the Kremlin, there will be peace deal"
You haven't been paying attention.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/29/zelensky-russia-war-territory-ukraine/
4:45am arrival at PEK?
That’s great. By the time you get into the city around 6 or 7am it’s dinner time back in the US and chinese breakfast are really good.
I believe United flies lax to toe as well.
Also Sichuan airline flies out of lax too
TPE
No, they don't. They do up to 2x daily SFO-TPE however.
UA doesn't fly nonstop LAX-TPE.
United would do well to do more China flying, that's one place where United is strictly better than the Chinese carriers. LAX-PEK should do pretty good given the hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in LA, especially w/ Air China onwards connectivity.
Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases...
United would do well to do more China flying, that's one place where United is strictly better than the Chinese carriers. LAX-PEK should do pretty good given the hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in LA, especially w/ Air China onwards connectivity.
Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases in frequency in the offseason.
Overall, Delta's longhaul success out of LAX is actually quite bad. Their AKL LFs were pretty abysmal earlier in the year and they had to cut LHR because they had LFs below in the 40% range.
In contrast, despite all the flack Delta gets at SEA, SEA's longhaul performance is pretty solid to Europe and most Asia destinations, although that TPE route doesn't look very hot.
Oh boy, everyone brace for the delta 350 deliveries and how much better they’ll be than everyone
"Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases in frequency in the offseason."
The second Sydney flight tapers off for Delta, but it's at least daily yearround.