While we’ll see if this materializes, United Airlines wants to launch another route to China, and expand its long haul presence in Los Angeles.
In this post:
United wants to add new route to Beijing as of May 2025
United has filed with the Department of Transportation (DOT), requesting permission to launch three weekly flights between Los Angeles (LAX) and Beijing (PEK). United proposes launching the route as of May 1, 2025, with the following schedule:
Los Angeles to Beijing departing 11:10PM arriving 4:45AM (+2 days)
Beijing to Los Angeles departing 12:00PM arriving 9:35AM
The 6,250-mile route would operate westbound on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, and eastbound on Thursdays, Saturdays, and Mondays. United wants to use a Boeing 787-9 for the route. These planes have 257 seats, including 48 business class seats, 21 premium economy seats, and 188 economy seats.
United currently operates a single route to Beijing, out of San Francisco (SFO). The only other airline flying nonstop between Los Angeles and Beijing is Air China.
How this route fits into the competitive landscape
Flights between the United States and China are capped, with airlines from each country having a combined maximum number of weekly frequencies they can operate. US airlines are allowed to operate 50 weekly flights between Los Angeles and Beijing, and currently carriers from the United States remain below that limit.
Demand between the United States and China is a fraction of what it was pre-pandemic. That was initially because the governments of both countries had a low cap on flights. However, even as that cap has increased, US airlines just haven’t had the desire to use up all available frequencies. This reflects the weak economic situation in China, plus strained relations between the two countries.
As I’ve often written about, Los Angeles is a market where all of the “big three” US carriers have a significant presence, but none really have a dominant market position. As it currently stands, United’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include Hong Kong (HKG), London (LHR), Melbourne (MEL), Shanghai (PVG), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND & NRT), all on a year-round basis. Now United wants to add Beijing flights (PEK) as well.
How does this compare to other airlines?
- American’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include London (LHR), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND), on a year-round basis, as well as Auckland (AKL) on a seasonal basis
- Delta’s long haul international destinations out of Los Angeles include Paris (CDG), Sydney (SYD), and Tokyo (HND), on a year-round basis, as well as Auckland (AKL), Brisbane (BNE), and Tahiti (PPT), on a seasonal basis; Delta also plans to resume Shanghai (PVG) flights as of June 2025
So United already serves the most long haul destinations out of Los Angeles, and that lead would increase even more if this route ends up happening.
Bottom line
United has requested permission to launch three weekly flights between Los Angeles and Beijing as of May 2025 using Boeing 787s. US airlines haven’t reached the frequency cap for flights between the two countries, so this has good odds of getting approved.
As we approach the limit on flights between the countries, maybe we’ll see other US airlines put in some applications as well. However, I suspect there’s a reason US airlines aren’t flocking to China.
What do you make of United adding Los Angeles to Beijing flights?
I wonder if there is enough demand and the reason for wanting this route since their alliance partner Air China offers this route
Wait, US Airlines are allowed 50 weekly flights between Los Angeles and Beijing? Surely that's the total allowance between all city pairs in the two countries and not just for this one route.
Yes, 50 weekly flights is the total allowance for all routes between China and the U.S.A., so 50 each for American and Chinese carriers. I think the Los Angeles and Beijing mention was a mistake. @Lucky
@ Tim Dunn -- "The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity."
May I ask, do you consider yourself to be capable of seeing yourself and/or Delta with any kind of objectivity? A yes or no answer is fine.
yes.
and to flip your question on its head.
Why is so hard for you to note what UA is not operating to E. Asia from its eastern US hubs but somehow manage to insert what DL does from LAX?
I realize you are here to stir the pot and create page clicks but the whole reason I post as much as I do is because there is an incredible lack of objectivity not just from you but from the UA fan kids.
@ Tim Dunn -- "Why is so hard for you to note what UA is not operating to E. Asia from its eastern US hubs but somehow manage to insert what DL does from LAX?"
Because this post is about a transpacific flight from LAX, and not about the A350-1000, or Delta's ability to get a revenue premium?
No, Ben, the flight is about China.
It is relevant to note that UA's China and HKG system has been reduced to flights from LAX and SFO.
Just as it is true that UA used to serve India from multiple gateways and is now reduced to a single route from EWR to DEL that only works at one time a day - they couldn't even make their 2nd daily flight work.
You are worse that...
No, Ben, the flight is about China.
It is relevant to note that UA's China and HKG system has been reduced to flights from LAX and SFO.
Just as it is true that UA used to serve India from multiple gateways and is now reduced to a single route from EWR to DEL that only works at one time a day - they couldn't even make their 2nd daily flight work.
You are worse that the mental midgets on a.net that insistently cherrypick what you want to make team A look better or team B look worse.
What AA, DL or UA do from LAX to Australia has no bearing on what UA will or will not do to China. UA's HKG service from LAX MIGHT be relevant.
The simple facts are that DL is the largest airline at LAX by a wide amount even though UA is the largest international carrier there.
AA and DL both manage to serve China from hubs outside of CA; DL has service from two hubs outside of CA - SEA and DTW and will add LAX.
The reason so many discussions turn into pissing matches is because you - unlike a.net - aren't even willing to provide accurate and meaningful comparisons.
The reason why the A350-1000 comes up is because it is so much larger and more capable of an aircraft than anything UA has.
You were correct to note that the KE/OZ merger approval - which has now been received from the DOJ - will open enormous doors for DL in the Pacific.
90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s (they fly DTW-PVG with their earliest build 359s) and because DL is not focused on building the largest hub but connecting more of the US to more of Asia -and that is what they already do for China better than UA and that will increase exponentially.
You are your and your readers' own worst enemy.
Act like you are really here to provide an objective service to your readers instead of childishly picking and choosing whatever matters because it will generate more page clicks or support your fetishes against someone who isn't afraid to tell you that you made a stupid mistake in how you handled Egypt.
you are a sad little man, Tim.
How you even take yourself seriously is amazing to me.
"90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s"
Where do you think Delta is flying with the A350 that United can't go to with the 77W or 789? You don't seem to...
you are a sad little man, Tim.
How you even take yourself seriously is amazing to me.
"90% of the UA fans are incapable of realizing that UA has very little room to grow in Asia because of the 787's lower capabilities compared to even DL's base A350-900s"
Where do you think Delta is flying with the A350 that United can't go to with the 77W or 789? You don't seem to know much about the capability of the aircraft.
Delta is a very weak second at their TPAC hub in SEA with Alaska quickly getting widebody aircraft while Delta is in last place among the alliances in SoCal. Where exactly do you think Delta is trying to fly from the West Coast that United's 787s or A350s can't fly? lol.
You are so weird... lol
I'm actually quite happy.
You only wish I was sad to make YOU feel better.
And you are all over the board.
If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?
The simple fact is that the 787 is far less capable which is why UA can't even make ORD-DEL work.
As for hubs, you can toot...
I'm actually quite happy.
You only wish I was sad to make YOU feel better.
And you are all over the board.
If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?
The simple fact is that the 787 is far less capable which is why UA can't even make ORD-DEL work.
As for hubs, you can toot UA's SFO hub all you want - and I have never decried how large of a hub it is - but you simply cannot accept that UA has ceded large parts of the eastern US to Asia network outside of Tokyo in order to build up UA's CA hubs.
Objectivity is to ACCURATELY note that DL is far stronger to E. Asia from east of the Rockies while UA dominates CA.
As for AS, you dream about what AS will do because you are incapable to grasp that DL's SEA TPAC gateway is the 2nd largest in the US by destinations to E. Asia behind UA at SFO.
Weird is being incapable of admitting those basic facts and others because YOUR entire self-image is wrapped up in UA's dominance.
You and a whole lot of other people are unable to accept that the completion of the KE/OZ will lead to significant expansion for DL not just to ICN but also throughout E. Asia as part of the JV.
As long as you and Ben and anyone else distorts and cherrypicks facts, I have a reason to come to this forum and set things straight.
you have serious mental issues.
Rather than reply to your 11 paragraph of illogical reasoning, I'll just let you go find your meds. Trying to find obscure ways to make Delta look bigger than UA in Asia is just... dumb
Get some mental help. you spend way too much time embarrassing yourself and the airline you love.
I don't have and don't need meds.
I do expect objectivity and accuracy to come from this site and for people like you that want to comment to accept reality, not your distorted view of the world that sees United as some untouchable deity of aviation and everyone else as pond scum.
I don't have to find ways to make Delta look better in Asia.
DL is half the size of UA across the...
I don't have and don't need meds.
I do expect objectivity and accuracy to come from this site and for people like you that want to comment to accept reality, not your distorted view of the world that sees United as some untouchable deity of aviation and everyone else as pond scum.
I don't have to find ways to make Delta look better in Asia.
DL is half the size of UA across the Pacific but made 80% of the profits that UA made.
I certainly don't doubt what UA has accomplished across the Pacific after DL decided to give up its position as the largest airline.
You and others simply cannot accept that DL still has enormous strengths in the cities in Asia it does serve and more importantly you cannot accept that DL will grow and will do it at a faster rate than UA - which means that UA's share lead will fall.
"If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?"
This has been said to you repeatedly. All of the destinations served were cut either because of the pandemic, or related to the blocking of Russian airspace. This has nothing to do with aircraft capability, it's about the profitability of additional flying hours burning fuel to go around...
"If UA's 787s could do anything DL's 359s can do, then why has UA abandoned their ORD, IAD and EWR to E. Asia networks aside from Tokyo?"
This has been said to you repeatedly. All of the destinations served were cut either because of the pandemic, or related to the blocking of Russian airspace. This has nothing to do with aircraft capability, it's about the profitability of additional flying hours burning fuel to go around Russia. Detroit is closer than EWR and IAD therefore the economics are different. What is also true, is UA can still service those markets from the West Coast more profitably without a significant detour.
What is also true what while DL is bigger than UA at LAX, DL had the same opportunity that UA had to serve PVG/HKG/PEK from LAX, and has chosen not to compete? Even though these are the largest markets in the US to those markets? Why?
do you seriously think that DL has different access to Russian airspace than United?
DL manages to fly from DTW to PVG and ICN but UA can't figure out how to get there from ORD- which is shorter?
As for the profit excuse - which everyone loves to trash when I bring it up - DL has made more money through the 1st quarters of 2024 (the latest that has been reported) across the Pacific...
do you seriously think that DL has different access to Russian airspace than United?
DL manages to fly from DTW to PVG and ICN but UA can't figure out how to get there from ORD- which is shorter?
As for the profit excuse - which everyone loves to trash when I bring it up - DL has made more money through the 1st quarters of 2024 (the latest that has been reported) across the Pacific even though DL is half the size of UA in terms of revenue.
I'm not arguing that DL hasn't added new flights from LAX to Asia.
I am arguing that DL is still larger and DL serves more of Asia from the eastern US than UA does
and DL will be announcing LAX-ICN soon. And it will be an early A350-1000 route.
and part of the beauty of the A350-1000 as well as the A350-900 is that they not only have more range but also are both more economical than the 777Ws and 777Es that UA uses across the Pacific.
Is it possible that you can admit that part of the reason why DL is more profitable is because it burns less fuel and has aircraft that really can fly 16-17 hour flights from the East Coast to Asia?
Time to put the drinks down, Tim. You're in your crazy drunk era
the only person that is drunk is someone that thinks that AS' capacity on the west coast has anything to do with AA - and that would decidedly not be me.
You live in a fantasy land of denial about AA that is just as bad as the arrogance of UA fan kids that think their position of dominance will remain forever.
Given that DL has already made more money flying the Pacific...
the only person that is drunk is someone that thinks that AS' capacity on the west coast has anything to do with AA - and that would decidedly not be me.
You live in a fantasy land of denial about AA that is just as bad as the arrogance of UA fan kids that think their position of dominance will remain forever.
Given that DL has already made more money flying the Pacific in 2024 than UA and DL is getting much more fuel efficient aircraft, I am betting that DL will find all the reasons and success in the world to take share from UA.
You live your dream, tim.
Everyone needs their passport sugarplum fairy to give them a new reality when their current one is out of whack with reality.
Glad you have dreams of Glen to keep you warm at night.
I guess if you don’t realize how the aa and as relationship enhances both sides in SoCal, you’re dumber than most thought you already were.
But put the drinks down. You sound dumb.
Tim, DL has no choice but to run a PVG flight from DTW (a flight that is useless to the western half of the country) since they already have one out of SEA and have been unable to compete to China, thus far, out of LAX.
California is by far the biggest market to China in the US, and DL has been unable to get past UA’s strength. Yes DL is bigger than UA...
Tim, DL has no choice but to run a PVG flight from DTW (a flight that is useless to the western half of the country) since they already have one out of SEA and have been unable to compete to China, thus far, out of LAX.
California is by far the biggest market to China in the US, and DL has been unable to get past UA’s strength. Yes DL is bigger than UA in LAX, but that makes it even more telling that UA is significantly bigger there, internationally, than DL. UA is double daily to HKG, a market DL was unable to compete in at all, in addition to the PVG flight.
UA has significant service to Tokyo from the eastern half of the US, and service will ramp up again when Russian airspace reopens.
UA has 787s that currently fly double daily SFO-SIN (another market where DL was unable to compete), so I’m not sure which markets you think UA will be unable to serve. And that’s before UA starts taking delivery of the IGW higher performing 787s.
YES. DL had a different access to flying around Russia than United from the East Coast. That's an objective fact.
You have zero evidence of DL being more profitable to Asia than UA. Because the airlines do not break out individual route performance. So stop throwing aggregate numbers around like they help prove your point.
And again for the upteenth time, who cares if DL is 'bigger' from the Eastern US. I would...
YES. DL had a different access to flying around Russia than United from the East Coast. That's an objective fact.
You have zero evidence of DL being more profitable to Asia than UA. Because the airlines do not break out individual route performance. So stop throwing aggregate numbers around like they help prove your point.
And again for the upteenth time, who cares if DL is 'bigger' from the Eastern US. I would bet that UA still carries way more people than DL from the "east"
The A350 is irrelevant. 1) the 787 is doing everything that they DL A350s can do, for cheaper 2) because DL doesn't even have it yet, 2) the CASM between carriers is not equal so it's an irrelevant comparison, 3) UA has a nearly insurmountable advantage in scale, breath, destinations served, loyalty, JV value, and local sales force over DL. So even if DL was flying passengers for no cost, UA would still win.
Are you really going to argue that DL is more profitable today because they fly a fleet that's more fuel efficient, which isn't even on property yet? Maybe it's all that hot air their burning?
And I hate to break it to you, the cost comparisons between the A350s and the 787 isn't straight forward. Stage length, acquisition cost, stage length, crew cost, RASM, cargo, and many other factors matter. None of which you or I have available.
It's really a shame you are such a sycophant for Delta, because they are a great carrier, with great employees, and an impressive merger/turnaround from 2008. But if you're a representative to 'sell' us on Delta's success, you're failing.
Sorry, I should clarify, my comments on the A350, only regarding the -1000. Not the -900 at DL today.
Airlines DO break out their costs and revenue by global region and send it to the DOT
You just don't like the results so pretend it is all fake news.
The fact is that DL most certainly is more profitable than UA not just to Asia but across their entire system.
I suppose you think the $2 billion in higher profits in 2023 and $500 million in 2024 is also fake news?
Feel free...
Airlines DO break out their costs and revenue by global region and send it to the DOT
You just don't like the results so pretend it is all fake news.
The fact is that DL most certainly is more profitable than UA not just to Asia but across their entire system.
I suppose you think the $2 billion in higher profits in 2023 and $500 million in 2024 is also fake news?
Feel free to let us know where UA actually underperforms DL but it is clear that they do somewhere - a lot of somewheres.
You, in your arrogance, simply can't stand to admit that DL runs not just a better airline but a better business.
Scott Kirby said from the day he started at UA that he was going to close the profit gap with DL. He is still trying and is still not there.
and of course you don't care if DL is bigger from the Eastern US to East Asia - but it is a fact. And you are incapable of admitting that UA really isn't the end all and be all that you think they are.
DTW-PVG is no more about DTW to Asia as it is about the eastern US - a market that UA either doesn't think is worth fighting for any longer.
and DL most certainly does serve the western US to China via SEA, and starting next year, once again from LAX
grow up and accept reality which is that the world is big enough for multiple strong competitors.
for the concern about Delta, several sources indicate that the DOJ has given its approval to the KE/OZ merger and it will close next week.
DL's growth to Asia including from LAX will accelerate.
And, yes, the A350-1000 will be a regular for DL from LAX.
and DL will continue to grow its Asian network from its hubs in the Eastern US, something UA cannot or does not do from ORD, IAD or EWR...
for the concern about Delta, several sources indicate that the DOJ has given its approval to the KE/OZ merger and it will close next week.
DL's growth to Asia including from LAX will accelerate.
And, yes, the A350-1000 will be a regular for DL from LAX.
and DL will continue to grow its Asian network from its hubs in the Eastern US, something UA cannot or does not do from ORD, IAD or EWR where it previously served China. UA is considerably smaller to Asia from its hubs outside of CA.
and in other news SK declares martial law and SK markets tumble.
weird. I don't recall any concern about Delta on a topic about United's new LAX-PEK route.
Just you off topic again. Last I checked, Delta doesn't serve anywhere in Asia from NYC and nowhere in China from ATL. United does serve Asia from NYC.
Last I checked, United serves Asia from Chicago and Dulles. Delta doesn't do either. But sure... Find your usual way of unusual route sleuthing to prove a point that...
weird. I don't recall any concern about Delta on a topic about United's new LAX-PEK route.
Just you off topic again. Last I checked, Delta doesn't serve anywhere in Asia from NYC and nowhere in China from ATL. United does serve Asia from NYC.
Last I checked, United serves Asia from Chicago and Dulles. Delta doesn't do either. But sure... Find your usual way of unusual route sleuthing to prove a point that everyone knows isn't there. A simple fact remains, United dominates Asia flying of the US3 and will in every way going forward whether from existing wide bodies or wide body order books.
You'll be a lot happier person if you just accept that. Your inability to look at reality when it comes to Delta's current and long term place in the Pacific is just tragic.
Why do you care so much that Delta is in a long term second place to United in the Pacific? Get a grip.
Ben said it right in the article.
Because he loves to stir the pot and compare what UA does at LAX to what DL and AA do.
He never bothers to note how pathetically weak UA is to Asia outside of CA compared to DL or even AA.
"Asian network" - you mean HND and ICN?
@Timm Dunn
Your constant pathetic hoping Delta will out perform United in Asia is laughable
Seattle will NEVER be SFO
United has SFO, LAX, And Guam as hubs and will always be the leader in flying to Asia.
No one cares about Detroit, Salt Lake City, and MSP, and BOS for flying to Asia. Heck they barely care about Seattle. Lmfao
you love to caveat "outside of UA's CA hubs" as if that isn't a massive qualifier to this discussion lol
the fact of that matter is, UA offers 1 stop itineraries via SFO or LAX to TYO, ICN, TPE, HKG, PVG, SIN, and PEK (ie, every tier 1 business destination in Asia) from every major city in the US, including most of DL's hubs. On the other hand, HKG, SIN, and PEK are all 2...
you love to caveat "outside of UA's CA hubs" as if that isn't a massive qualifier to this discussion lol
the fact of that matter is, UA offers 1 stop itineraries via SFO or LAX to TYO, ICN, TPE, HKG, PVG, SIN, and PEK (ie, every tier 1 business destination in Asia) from every major city in the US, including most of DL's hubs. On the other hand, HKG, SIN, and PEK are all 2 stops from non DL hubs (Origin -> DL hub -> ICN -> HKG/SIN/PEK). Until DL adds those destinations, its Asia coverage is going to be worse than UA's.
This doesn't even get into how the UA/NH JV dominates US-Japan O/D - they've got a larger market share in larger market than US-Korea O/D.
UA has three flights to Asia from NYC (HND, NRT, DEL) while DL has zero.
UA also flies to Asia from IAD and ORD, so UA has much bigger business centers covered than DL does.
And of course you don’t even acknowledge that it’s the Russian overflight issues that are behind the temporary suspension in the other flights.
Even with the suspension of those flights, UA service to Asia absolutely dwarfs that of DL.
I love to wind all of you UA fans up because you consistently prove several things:
1. The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity.
2. UA is simply incapable of doing what it did pre-pandemic and pre-Ukraine war and DL has developed a route system and fleet that can continue to deliver from the eastern US.
It is...
I love to wind all of you UA fans up because you consistently prove several things:
1. The arrogance of United fans is out of this world. They are completely incapable of seeing themselves or UA with any kind of objectivity.
2. UA is simply incapable of doing what it did pre-pandemic and pre-Ukraine war and DL has developed a route system and fleet that can continue to deliver from the eastern US.
It is no surprise the jeers that UA fan kiddos have for any other hub - as highlighted by the fact that a. UA doesn't even serve JFK, the largest international airport in the NE while DL serves all 3 b. UA isn't the largest airline at either LAX or in NYC combined - DL offers more than 15% more flights and c. DL is taking delivery of aircraft that seat not only more people but also will fly further which is why DL can serve more of Asia not just from ATL, DTW and MSP than UA can serve from its hubs but DL will be able to fly further from LAX and JFK than UA can from EWR and carry more passengers in the process.
Don't talk about how big UA's current fleet is but about how much either carrier will be and the capabilities each will have. The simple reality - whether you want to hear it or not - is that UA's international fleet is much older than DL's, DL's A350s are far more capable - right now - and the A350-1000 will be far more capable and efficient.
The KE/OZ merger is huge for reshaping aviation and giving DL the platform to grow across East Asia. The A350-1000s will facilitate that growth throughout all of Asia.
UA's route network to China is much smaller as a percentage of what it was pre-covid than DL's.
They can't fly from IAD, ORD and EWR to China or HKG so have no choice but to do it from CA.
There are literally scores of cities that DL can better connect to Asia from its Eastern US hubs than UA can from its CA hubs; and given that ICN is a far larger hub than HND or NRT, DL can and will carry more passengers to Asia through its JV partner than UA can through its own.
Have a little humble pie and realize that DL is outsmarting UA in its strongest region.
Too many words and not enough substance.
You could have just said Delta serves 2 destinations and 3 routes in Asia excluding ICN and HND. Only one route in the entire Asia system is double daily. Doesn’t serve any Pacific routes from the Northeast, doesn’t serve the Middle East, doesn’t serve India, doesn’t serve South East Asia, doesn’t serve China outside Shanghai, doesn’t serve Japan outside Haneda.
Vancouver is a smaller market than...
Too many words and not enough substance.
You could have just said Delta serves 2 destinations and 3 routes in Asia excluding ICN and HND. Only one route in the entire Asia system is double daily. Doesn’t serve any Pacific routes from the Northeast, doesn’t serve the Middle East, doesn’t serve India, doesn’t serve South East Asia, doesn’t serve China outside Shanghai, doesn’t serve Japan outside Haneda.
Vancouver is a smaller market than Seattle and Canada a smaller market than the US, yet Air Canada is outplaying and out maneuvering Delta in Asia.
I’m sure the geopolitical situation in Seoul will do wonders for Delta in Asia.
And all you or Ben or anyone else needs to admit is that UA's Asia/Pacific network from the Eastern US is a shadow of its former self.
And the reason why UA has no choice but to keep trying to make flights from LAX work is because there is no more demand from SFO and they can't make eastern US to Asia work.
That is all YOU have to say.
But instead you...
And all you or Ben or anyone else needs to admit is that UA's Asia/Pacific network from the Eastern US is a shadow of its former self.
And the reason why UA has no choice but to keep trying to make flights from LAX work is because there is no more demand from SFO and they can't make eastern US to Asia work.
That is all YOU have to say.
But instead you focus on DL while being unable to note that DL is still the largest US carrier at HND and also has a JV hub at ICN that is far larger than anything AA or UA have in E. Asia.
It would be too much for you or Ben or anyone else to demonstrate that kind of objectivity.
As for AC, Delta handedly beats them in the number of gateways to Asia - but since you are all about cherrypicking facts, you would never be able to admit that reality
you can and do wish that S. Korea will melt down but that is far less likely to happen than that China will melt down.
You should have just said that Delta is the only carrier to not serve Asia from the Northeast. I didn’t mention United in any of my comments but you make a good point that they’re the largest carrier from the east coast to Asia and the only airline with two east coast gateways serving Asia. And yes, you are correct that Air Canada serves more gateways in Asia than Delta.
Also thank you for pointing...
You should have just said that Delta is the only carrier to not serve Asia from the Northeast. I didn’t mention United in any of my comments but you make a good point that they’re the largest carrier from the east coast to Asia and the only airline with two east coast gateways serving Asia. And yes, you are correct that Air Canada serves more gateways in Asia than Delta.
Also thank you for pointing out Haneda is larger than Incheon and isn’t undergoing martial law and that United and Delta have the same number of flights to Haneda but Delta has less everywhere else outside ICN.
Try to be more objective and accurate in your takes and you’ll be taken seriously.
as long as you exclude Atlanta from the East coast.
I'm sure you will say that ATL is not an east coast state but a map will quickly prove you wrong.
DL operates more flights from ATL to E. Asia than UA does from EWR.
and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers...
as long as you exclude Atlanta from the East coast.
I'm sure you will say that ATL is not an east coast state but a map will quickly prove you wrong.
DL operates more flights from ATL to E. Asia than UA does from EWR.
and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does.
The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
"The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth"
Who says this? lmao "Dread the day"?! lol. Tim calling others arrogant? Dude, it's a public company that...
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
"The reason why I continue to show up is because of arrogant people like you that are incapable of objectivity or truth"
Who says this? lmao "Dread the day"?! lol. Tim calling others arrogant? Dude, it's a public company that is woefully pathetic in so many ways and, in some ways, better than the US3 competitors. But Delta (or UA and AA) certainly isn't worthy of making such a joke out of the one life you have to live like you do...
What a pathetic idiot. Fired by Delta and still in love with them.
Put the drinks down, Timmy.
"and DL will fly from NYC to Asia and add even more from ATL; you will dread the day that DL announces its flights that will carry far more passengers and revenue than UA does."
This only reads like the ramblings of a 7-year old child throwing a tantrum... "Oh yeah, you just wait till my big brother gets here!"
Sorry, Tim. DL still isn’t the largest US carrier from the East Coast to Asia including Atlanta. And if you include Air Canada’s presence in just Toronto, than Delta is also behind Air Canada. There’s over 10 carriers that serve Asia from the Northeast and NYC. Delta isn’t on of them.
The day Delta carried more passengers and revenue to Asia than other carriers was in the past, not in the future.
You’re such...
Sorry, Tim. DL still isn’t the largest US carrier from the East Coast to Asia including Atlanta. And if you include Air Canada’s presence in just Toronto, than Delta is also behind Air Canada. There’s over 10 carriers that serve Asia from the Northeast and NYC. Delta isn’t on of them.
The day Delta carried more passengers and revenue to Asia than other carriers was in the past, not in the future.
You’re such a low bit player in the aviation space incapable of objectivity or truth.
Just checked, Delta does not have LAX-CDG flight right now. Air France is the only carrier on this route.
Yes they do - DL 290
It will be great to See United Airlines fly from Los Angeles to Beijing.
How long is the flight going to take fron Los Angeles to Beijing
My guess is 11hrs and 45mins
more like 14-15. Air china is currently 15.
UA/CO had SFO/ORD/EWR/IAD - PEK daily. LAX is a logical addition to SFO along the slow recovery path. The same reason they could afford 2x LAX-HKG now.
and that is precisely the point. UA is much smaller to China now than DL or AA is.
The fact that AA and DL both can fly to China from their hubs east of CA while UA cannot or does not speaks volumes about UA's vulnerabilities to Asia.
DL has more service to E. Asia from ATL than UA has from EWR, ORD, IAH or IAD.
UA is currently offering SFO-PVG, SFO-PEK, LAX-PVG, and just bid LAX-PEK
DL is offering DTW-PVG, SEA-PVG, and maybe LAX-PVG if they don't cancel it a third time.
AA is offering DFW-PVG.
.......how is United "much smaller in China" than either of them?
Given the PEK-USA demographics and Eastern US restrictions, LAX is probably best to handle many US-connecting traffic compared to delay-prone, gate-restricted (construction) SFO for the foreseeable future.
Still surprised united isn't flying lax fra seasonally during summer. Could be a very late flight with timings similar to ua 927. LH would be able to remove their 2nd daily seasonal flight and redirect it to a non SA hub. I'd assume this would be more lucrative than PEK, right?
LH doesn't want UA flying germany LA, they want the market all to themselves.
‘ United serves more long haul destinations out of LAX than Delta’
Quote from Ben is so asking for someone to respond to that with some utter non-related nonsense. Haha.
And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX.
And year to date through the 3rd quarter, DL has earned $2.6 billion in net income compared to $2.1 billion for UA even though UA has flown 5% more RPMs.
apparently all of the int'l growth at LAX and elsewhere across its network isn't as profitable as they would like you to believe - and DL still gets a significant revenue and profit premium.
And,...
And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX.
And year to date through the 3rd quarter, DL has earned $2.6 billion in net income compared to $2.1 billion for UA even though UA has flown 5% more RPMs.
apparently all of the int'l growth at LAX and elsewhere across its network isn't as profitable as they would like you to believe - and DL still gets a significant revenue and profit premium.
And, of course, UA doesn't fly from EWR, IAD or ORD to E. Asia other than Tokyo while DL flies to HND and ICN from MSP and ATL and to HND, ICN, and PVG from DTW.
"And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX."
Biggest metal at LAX while AA's terminal is redone.
But a few extra caveats:
1. Delta is in the smallest alliance at LAX
2. Delta is the smallest airline in Southern California
3. Delta is the smallest loyalty program in Southern California
4. Delta can barely make anything new work without retreating within a month. Remember when LAX-DAL was...
"And yet DL is still the largest airline at LAX."
Biggest metal at LAX while AA's terminal is redone.
But a few extra caveats:
1. Delta is in the smallest alliance at LAX
2. Delta is the smallest airline in Southern California
3. Delta is the smallest loyalty program in Southern California
4. Delta can barely make anything new work without retreating within a month. Remember when LAX-DAL was your big talking point? Lol
5. Alliances matter especially when OneWorld dominates coverage in southern california at ALL airports and at LAX just domestically.
Your talking points are adorable but you need some new ones. It's getting pathetic. And you still don't understand revenue accounting.
yes... I don't understand revenue accounting but you make all kinds of statements about size that are flat out wrong because you want AA to be able to call AS' capacity their own.
Newsflash. AA doesn't even have a JV with B6, let alone AS
Feel free to provide actual facts to back up the rest of your claims.
AA has retreated from CA and they won't regrow regardless of whatever terminals they gain....
yes... I don't understand revenue accounting but you make all kinds of statements about size that are flat out wrong because you want AA to be able to call AS' capacity their own.
Newsflash. AA doesn't even have a JV with B6, let alone AS
Feel free to provide actual facts to back up the rest of your claims.
AA has retreated from CA and they won't regrow regardless of whatever terminals they gain. One need only look at AA in NYC to see how long AA has been talking about getting back in the game and are still left hopelessly on the sidellnes.
The way you see the world in such strangle black and white terms and winners and losers only explains even more why you’re so lonely and fired from delta
Or was it drunk behavior?
Ben, doesn't UA also fly to PEK from EWR? Although that flight consistently costs over $10K round-trip (as far as I can tell on Google Flights), not sure what the reason for that is.
It's a route that will never fly until Russian airspace can be used, it's just there as a placeholder so they can keep the slot.
That's a placeholder flight that will always get cancelled/rebooked to something else, so that UA can hold onto it for scheduling/slot purposes.
Similar to HND slot debacle this serves a secondary purpose, blocking competitors.
With fares high and demand still increasing, UA have locked themselves into (and AA/AS/DL out of) a big money maker. How smart.
UA execs just said on their last earnings call that China remains weak... I doubt that changed in the past 5 weeks.
You did get the "block and tackle to keep competitors out" routine correct and UA is still willing to lose money to do those things.
It was multiple flights/week to the S. Pacific last year and now it is just 3X/week to Beijing. Progress. Such progress.
Not true @Tim Dunn. You left out the full quote. Scott Kirby ALSO said that their RASM was increasing thanks to their "full schedule."
So as the schedule improves, revenue does too.
Ed Bastian agrees. DL is launching LAX-PVG.
And let's not forget that UA dropped a couple LAX routes including LAX-AKL.
And don't give me that they have a JV partner flying the route because that is the exact situation with DL on LAX-LHR.
In fact, UA doesn't have a JV partner to LHR so they burnt the furniture to get DL to drop the route on its own metal and then UA dropped back to 1 flight/day.
That my friends, is why DL leads the industry in profitability.
You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes
“ And don't give me that they have a JV partner flying the route because that is the exact situation with DL on LAX-LHR.”
Yeah… it’s not. LHr is the biggest market from lax.
Akl is not that from lax nor has United made some big to do about being something lax, delta has
Cute try though
of course you will justify anything to prevent the legitimate conclusions that any rational and balanced person could see - but then that clearly does not include you
Noted. Insult insult insult.
Because you don’t have a reply to what I said. But thanks for reinforcing my point.
Because there is a difference to delta giving up on lax-Lhr for the second time in very recent memory and leaving it to their bit partner based in LHR.
Vs United leaving lax-akl, a largely tourism Market to, by far, the biggest airline in AkL. And the only year-round operator from lax to akl since delta only kept that marketing gimmick for two months.
What the hell did your parents do to you as a child?
Still no reply. Just sad attempts at a reply. noted.
as I sad, you are capable of justifying your own and UA's actions but cannot accept the fact that there is nothing different from cancelling a flight because your JV partner already flies it.
And the ultimate UA bait and switch is that UA doesn't even serve JFK which is the largest international airport in NYC.
And yet we have heard since the CO merger that UA doesn't need to serve JFK because of...
as I sad, you are capable of justifying your own and UA's actions but cannot accept the fact that there is nothing different from cancelling a flight because your JV partner already flies it.
And the ultimate UA bait and switch is that UA doesn't even serve JFK which is the largest international airport in NYC.
And yet we have heard since the CO merger that UA doesn't need to serve JFK because of its massive EWR hub - which even the Port Authority recognizes is smaller today than it was a year ago while DL is growing.
and UA doesn't serve a single route to Asia other than Tokyo from any hub other than in California.
You are wonderful at picking and choosing the narrative but it is clear that UA is only capable of making California to Asia work along with routes in partnership with its JV partners to Japan.
In contrast, DL serves 3 hubs growing to 4 outside of the west coast to Asia including DTW which serves 3 cities on DL metal.
Those with their eyes wide open know exactly what is happening. UA can't make anything outside of the west coast work to anything other than Tokyo.
By that same logic, outside the east coast Delta serves no destinations in South America unlike American or United.
Outside of HND and ICN, Delta serves only 3 routes in all of Asia, two to PVG and one to TPE.
Outside SEA, Delta is the only North American carrier to service less than 4 Asian destinations.
Delta is also the only Pacific JV carrier not to serve Asia from the Northeast. Delta...
By that same logic, outside the east coast Delta serves no destinations in South America unlike American or United.
Outside of HND and ICN, Delta serves only 3 routes in all of Asia, two to PVG and one to TPE.
Outside SEA, Delta is the only North American carrier to service less than 4 Asian destinations.
Delta is also the only Pacific JV carrier not to serve Asia from the Northeast. Delta is the only North American carrier not to serve India or the Middle East.
Many destinations in Asia are already being served by another North American carrier that isn’t United. There’s an uncontested #2 to Asia and it’s Air Canada. Delta is the only US legacy to lose both titles as the largest and most profitable carrier in an international region.
Tim clearly defines the phrase “the emptiest head rattles the loudest.”
feel free to show me the data but I am pretty sure that DL flies more ASMs across the Pacific than Air Canada.
UA has twice the capacity of DL which has twice the capacity of AA over the Pacific.
India and the Middle East as well as Canada IS part of the SkyTeam TATL JV.
DL's JV partners carry far more traffic to India than AA or UA can fit on their weight...
feel free to show me the data but I am pretty sure that DL flies more ASMs across the Pacific than Air Canada.
UA has twice the capacity of DL which has twice the capacity of AA over the Pacific.
India and the Middle East as well as Canada IS part of the SkyTeam TATL JV.
DL's JV partners carry far more traffic to India than AA or UA can fit on their weight restricted 787s.
DL carries plenty of traffic from Canada to Asia via its US hubs.
You can have your own opinions but you can't make up your own facts.
Just because UA doesn't have a hub in the SE which is where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates or is destined doesn't hurt DL.
IN fact, since you love to talk about JVs. DL/LA is far larger than UA to Latin America. FAR LARGER. DL alone is about 95% of UA's size to Latin America.
and also far more profitable.
“UA has twice the capacity of DL over the Pacific.”
Case closed. Thank you for pointing out that all 3 TATL JV serve India and the Middle East from both sides of the Atlantic excluding Delta.
Yes, you’re right. DL doesn’t have a hub in Florida where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates which hurts the airline.
You’re correct, DL is the smallest US carrier both in profits and size to Latin America and...
“UA has twice the capacity of DL over the Pacific.”
Case closed. Thank you for pointing out that all 3 TATL JV serve India and the Middle East from both sides of the Atlantic excluding Delta.
Yes, you’re right. DL doesn’t have a hub in Florida where the largest portion of Latin traffic originates which hurts the airline.
You’re correct, DL is the smallest US carrier both in profits and size to Latin America and doesn’t serve South America outside the East Coast.
Thank you for pointing out the deficiencies in Delta’s network.
Huh? What is that even supposed to mean?
What is the point of excluding their primary Asian gateway, then comparing it to others? AA serves 5 destinations technically in Asia, but no more than 3 from any single gateway.
That’s exactly my point ConcordeBoy.
CF noted that UA's SFO-PEK route was one of its lowest load factor routes last winter.
If PEK was really performing, I'm pretty sure that AA and DL would figure out to find their way back there.
Apparently, UA has too much money sitting around Chicago so they need to use it to heat the Willis.
I think DL should be more worried about being one of four carriers on SEA-TPE and their corresponding 50% load factor just a few months ago.
UA has shown they’re willing to cut unprofitable routes. As Brett Snyder said, if UA doesn’t cut any routes, they’re not trying hard enough.
Based on UA’s track record of cutting flights that don’t work out, they must see promise in LAX-PEK.
Yes, China is weaker...
I think DL should be more worried about being one of four carriers on SEA-TPE and their corresponding 50% load factor just a few months ago.
UA has shown they’re willing to cut unprofitable routes. As Brett Snyder said, if UA doesn’t cut any routes, they’re not trying hard enough.
Based on UA’s track record of cutting flights that don’t work out, they must see promise in LAX-PEK.
Yes, China is weaker than it was pre-pandemic. Even with LAX-PEK, their schedule will still be a fraction of what it was and yet still much stronger than DL’s China schedule and TPAC schedule in general.
Not even a couple months ago - Delta’s LF on SEA - TPE in October was 59%, an improvement from September’s 51% but still 4th of the carriers and obviously unprofitable. Delta peaked at ~88% LF this summer when 2 other carriers were not serving this route so it’s unlikely it even returns to that level in summer 2025.
Given how things are trending, we’re likely going to see that route go seasonal or entirely bye bye in half a year.
Looking at the data, Delta actually peaked at an 85% LF in June but once a 3rd carrier entered in July they fell to an 80% LF which is widely considered break-even in the industry unless you have very major cargo and business contracts (extremely unlikely given we know China Airlines has the large cargo contracts out of Taiwan).
So given break-even in peak months and money losing at all other times… unless someone leaves the writing is staring at us on the wall
isn't it great, Jeremy, that DL can lose money on yet another flight and still manage to be more profitable across the Pacific than UA?
Feel free to let us know what UA is doing that it can't have twice the profit of DL's profitability since UA has twice the capacity.
Don’t worry. United is only flying 3X weekly. Those flights will all be full. Overbooked in economy and empty in business class. China is still rebounding ; two years from now 2027 can be completely different with a big uptick in demand. AA needs is delayed with aircraft deliveries anyways ; also over focused on regional business model. DL and AA no rush to return to mainland China and HK.
United leading the pack when it comes to route diversity again. Yet another reason I've gone from nothing to 1K this year. They're getting a lot right. Even if the clubs are the worst of the big 3.
The fact that you don’t mention that DL’s LAX to SYD is 10 times weekly is blasphemy. Factor in the fact that you haven’t written about Delta agreeing to 98 gates at AUS, you talking negatively about the DL crew in AMS, and there’s no mention of DL utilizing the superior A350-1000 in the Air India Interior Retrofit Delay article is cause for concern. Get it together Ben.
One of your better ones lol
even I had to laugh, mama.
Womp womp… sorry they can’t all be about your cult.
What the hell are you talking about? You want him to do PR for Delta? Go away.
This should not be a surprise. If and when it came the time for United to add more service to PEK, it was going to come from LAX given not just the current restrictions between the US and the PRC for carriers for each country but because of the lack of Russian airspace access for US carriers. C-Suite at UA has repeatedly stated that non-West Coast-East Asia flights, except to TYO, cannot work under the...
This should not be a surprise. If and when it came the time for United to add more service to PEK, it was going to come from LAX given not just the current restrictions between the US and the PRC for carriers for each country but because of the lack of Russian airspace access for US carriers. C-Suite at UA has repeatedly stated that non-West Coast-East Asia flights, except to TYO, cannot work under the present overflight restrictions because of the added time to such routes which ensures that they would lose money. Yes, all those extra minutes add up. Apples and oranges comparison with Delta flying DTW-PVG which is blocked up to 15 hours in the winter. AA's sole PRC flight, DFW-PVG, involves less divergence than DTW-PVG.
Additionally, since Air China has their once daily LAX-PEK fight, it is enticing for UA to start their own LAX-PEK flight as the competition is rather lacking as Air China primarily flies those from Beijing to the LA Basin. UA's proposed timing maximises connections at LAX, not to mention getting the demand from the LA Basin. I am surprised though that UA did not propose to use the remaining twice weekly slots and make this route five times weekly. If and when more weekly slots become available, I presume UA would eventually look to make this daily. AA has given up on all non-JV long-haul flying ex-LAX while UA has been opportunistic in the past several years with LAX Longhaul additions given the slow return of international carriers following the pandemic and AA's withdrawal from LAX-Pacific flying except for LAX-HND/SYD and seasonal LAX-AKL.
With the new US administration, I would be shocked if the Russian airspace situation is still a thing a year from now.
You'll be surprised. Until Putin is no longer in the Kremlin, there will be peace deal, among other things in Ukraine.
My mistake, no* peace deal with the Kremlin. This new Administration won't accept one unless they feel like they're solidly ahead/winning it.
"Until Putin is no longer in the Kremlin, there will be peace deal"
You haven't been paying attention.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/29/zelensky-russia-war-territory-ukraine/
4:45am arrival at PEK?
That’s great. By the time you get into the city around 6 or 7am it’s dinner time back in the US and chinese breakfast are really good.
I believe United flies lax to toe as well.
Also Sichuan airline flies out of lax too
TPE
No, they don't. They do up to 2x daily SFO-TPE however.
UA doesn't fly nonstop LAX-TPE.
United would do well to do more China flying, that's one place where United is strictly better than the Chinese carriers. LAX-PEK should do pretty good given the hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in LA, especially w/ Air China onwards connectivity.
Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases...
United would do well to do more China flying, that's one place where United is strictly better than the Chinese carriers. LAX-PEK should do pretty good given the hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in LA, especially w/ Air China onwards connectivity.
Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases in frequency in the offseason.
Overall, Delta's longhaul success out of LAX is actually quite bad. Their AKL LFs were pretty abysmal earlier in the year and they had to cut LHR because they had LFs below in the 40% range.
In contrast, despite all the flack Delta gets at SEA, SEA's longhaul performance is pretty solid to Europe and most Asia destinations, although that TPE route doesn't look very hot.
Oh boy, everyone brace for the delta 350 deliveries and how much better they’ll be than everyone
"Also, it is probably worth noting that Delta doesn't even fly daily to CDG despite it being a JV partner hub. I believe HND is the only year-round daily flight, as SYD decreases in frequency in the offseason."
The second Sydney flight tapers off for Delta, but it's at least daily yearround.