My gosh. We know that the air traffic control situation at and around Newark International Airport (EWR) is currently a complete mess, as air traffic control centers are severely understaffed, all while air traffic controllers have suffered repeated full radio and radar outages. Well, the situation at the airport may be worse than ever before at this very moment…
In this post:
Newark air traffic control crisis reaches new low
In recent hours, rumors have been circulating that Newark had zero air traffic controllers scheduled for this evening, as flagged by @xJonNYC. The New York Post is now reporting on this situation, claiming to have some exclusive insights from an air traffic controller. I can’t speak to the accuracy of this report, but if it’s even a little bit true, it’s beyond shocking.
According to this report, there’s a single qualified air traffic controller scheduled to work at Newark this evening (Monday, May 12, 2025), between 6:30PM and 9:30PM, in addition to a trainee. They’ll be responsible for handling anywhere from 168 to 180 takeoffs and landings, which the controller describes as “pure insanity.” As a point of comparison, that number is usually supposed to be 15 staffers per shift, given that they oversee five radarscopes with different sectors.
What’s even wilder is that the airport was apparently facing a “zero ATC event,” to describe a scenario where no one was scheduled to show up for work. One air traffic controller canceled his day off to come in and work, preventing that scenario from happening.
An FAA spokesperson claimed that there’s “no point at which we will have zero air traffic controllers,” and that there are “at least three controllers scheduled for each hour,” without clarifying how many are fully certified, and how many are trainees. Either way, that’s a long way from standard staffing. The spokesperson also didn’t deny that zero people were scheduled for the shift.
According to the same source, there were only two air traffic controllers working the night shift on Sunday, and he said that he has “never seen anything like this” in decades of being an air traffic controller:
“If you get below half of that standard, so seven, your safety begins to be compromised and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) knows that. So what they’ll do is put out ground stop delays and that’s what we’re seeing across the country. But it’s still just dangerous when 1-3 controllers are getting slammed.”
If there’s any silver lining with this mess…
If there’s any upside to all of this, it’s that hopefully things have finally gotten so bad that they can only get better from here. Our air traffic control system has suffered decades of neglect, with not enough investment in staffing and technology.
The problem is, we just kept letting things worse little by little. Now we’re finally seeing bipartisan efforts to invest in air traffic control infrastructure, and that’s long overdue.
Keep in mind that part of the reason that staffing has gotten even worse in recent times is because some air traffic controllers have “taken time off to recover from the stress of multiple recent outages,” in line with the Federal Employees’ Compensation Act, which “covers all federal employees that are physically injured or experience a traumatic event on the job.”
So this is just a cycle of crappiness, and our air traffic controllers and the traveling public deserve better.
Bottom line
Newark Airport is currently having an air traffic control crisis, whereby the region is consistently short staffed. This is for a variety of reasons, including frequent radar and radio outages, which have caused some employees to take trauma leave. That’s all on top of the standard staffing shortages across the country.
The disaster is perhaps reaching a new level today, as zero air traffic controllers were reportedly scheduled for an evening shift. One certified controller ended up coming in on his day off, and is apparently assisted by trainees.
It’s not entirely clear how many trainees there are, but one thing is for sure — the current fragility surrounding staffing is a major problem. I think we all owe the certified controller working at Newark tonight a beer (but, like, later… not during his shift).
What do you make of this Newark air traffic control mess?
When my daughter who is a flight attendant for United, gets killed my grand dsughter. Will not have a mom but trust me she will be rich. United keeps sending her to Newark knowing what they are flying into. Her so called union won’t even answer their phone. . The fAA. does not. Respond either. No one seems to care what will happen just a matter of time.
You can send your thank you memo to JoePro.
@Peniskimo: What SPECIFICALLY can you attribute to me for a degree of blame under the assumption a human being... this woman's daughter... dies in Newark.
..... that's what I thought.
Troll.
Like most things in the usa nothing will actually be seriously improved unless someone dies AND lawsuits have been filed.
EWR finished yesterday with 18% delayed flights and 8% cancellations, most of which were the flights that UA pre-cancelled with the larger portion being on Republic operating for UA.
MIA, FLL and MCO had worse on-time percentages yesterday due in part to thunderstorms.
Controllers are doing a phenomenal job w/ alot of very old technology, short staffing and a closed runway but they are delivering. Hats off to them.
Hopefully the FAA will...
EWR finished yesterday with 18% delayed flights and 8% cancellations, most of which were the flights that UA pre-cancelled with the larger portion being on Republic operating for UA.
MIA, FLL and MCO had worse on-time percentages yesterday due in part to thunderstorms.
Controllers are doing a phenomenal job w/ alot of very old technology, short staffing and a closed runway but they are delivering. Hats off to them.
Hopefully the FAA will get reliable communications systems in place within the next few months for EWR.
The FAA still might choose to lower the number of flights below what EWR has been operating while they upgrade and replace the national ATC system but the capacity of EWR as a hub is likely in excess of what it can reliably operate.
Absolute nonsense.You only have to look at the amount of movements to see this guy is just seeking attention for no reason and is not an aviation enthusiast or involved in the aviation industry.
To whom are you referring Julian?
Sounds like he is referring to the anonymous air traffic controller the NY Post is sourcing its info from.
Thank you 9v …. I pleased that someone is awake as I’m clearly not.
As there are those who post herein are unaware of the fact that in the UK, in times of emergency, the UK government can call upon the UK Military for assistance, I included the website link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk
Eskimo, please note this is not, I repeat NOT a coup d’état!
As there are those who post herein are unaware of the fact that in the UK, in times of emergency, the UK government can call upon the UK Military for assistance, I included the website link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk/2015-to-2020-government-policy-military-aid-to-the-civil-authorities-for-activities-in-the-uk
Eskimo, please note this is not, I repeat NOT a coup d’état!
Reagan did the same thing after firing the PATCO controllers in the '80s. There's precedent in the US for this too.
I walked out in 1981. Little has changed, literally, except for more traffic. They backfilled us with ridiculous amounts of overtime, underskilled supervisors, scabs, military controllers and called-back retirees.
@John Selden
Thank you for standing up for yourself and your fellow controllers. It's a shame how little has changed despite it, ATCs deserve much better.
1. It's "ATC Zero", not "Zero ATC"
2. Don't worry: AI can take over in a hot minute per Eskimo. That's why we're all getting fired tomorrow. Oh, wait, that's not a real thing.
3. Everybody and their mothers--- even our own frigging union--- only wants to talk about staffing and equipment---- when a large portion of us are begging the public to understand our pay has taken a huge hit in the...
1. It's "ATC Zero", not "Zero ATC"
2. Don't worry: AI can take over in a hot minute per Eskimo. That's why we're all getting fired tomorrow. Oh, wait, that's not a real thing.
3. Everybody and their mothers--- even our own frigging union--- only wants to talk about staffing and equipment---- when a large portion of us are begging the public to understand our pay has taken a huge hit in the last 7-8 years, and we are no longer adequately compensated. When I joined the FAA, pay was boss, and you could effectively live like a king. Now my facility can't even attract those aspiring to become professionals, because we aren't offering pay like most professions in the area. Lucky us though, since our hours have gone up 25-50% a week, it still "feels" like we make good money. It doesn't help that the public only sees a number and doesn't understand the job that goes along with it.
Look to the ATC reddit sub and the PointSixtyFive forum and you'll see there is mass discontentment with our own union leadership and their priorities. They are more invested in collaborating with management and protecting their own positions than representing their members. Hell, we couldn't even get our union to publicly rebuff Kirby when he made the ahole claim that controllers "walked off the job" earlier this week.
Union had your back.
Your attitude and mindset is why ATC has problems right now.
Technology is already there and can take over very quick. It's dinosaurs like you, your union, and you superiors that prevent it from happening at the expense of public safety and public connectivity.
Now you colleagues are holding public safety as hostage so you can "effectively live like a king" again. Going on a AWOL power trip doesn't...
Union had your back.
Your attitude and mindset is why ATC has problems right now.
Technology is already there and can take over very quick. It's dinosaurs like you, your union, and you superiors that prevent it from happening at the expense of public safety and public connectivity.
Now you colleagues are holding public safety as hostage so you can "effectively live like a king" again. Going on a AWOL power trip doesn't make the public side with you.
Walmart is hiring, you can go control shopping cart traffic there. You can seize the carts when you need a power trip.
@Eskimo
You are badly mistaken when it comes to AI. AI that could handle air traffic control essentially does not exist today and is unlikely to in the near future. Just like Musk's self-driving car is a fantasy. There's simply too many variables in the air and on the road that could cause such a program to become confused and require manual frequent manual intervention. The LLMs that currently exist are useful for parsing...
@Eskimo
You are badly mistaken when it comes to AI. AI that could handle air traffic control essentially does not exist today and is unlikely to in the near future. Just like Musk's self-driving car is a fantasy. There's simply too many variables in the air and on the road that could cause such a program to become confused and require manual frequent manual intervention. The LLMs that currently exist are useful for parsing and summarizing text, but that's the limit of their current usefulness and a far cry from what the layman thinks of when they think of "artificial intelligence". Because it isn't intelligent, it can't think, it's just a probability model, and when you have thousands of aircraft in the air or tens of thousands of cars on the road, even the 1% or .01% chance scenario is going to happen with some regularity. Humans handle that better and will for the forseeable future.
@Dusty
I'll respond to you because at least you're not thinking like an obsolete lunatic JoeSaurus.
Just bringing up "LLM" already tells me you have no idea what AI actually is beyond what the media is covering or how far technology has come. Thus no point to get into details other than ATC has almost nothing to do with LLM.
"There's simply too many variables"
Exactly why humans can't handle but computers can. Humans...
@Dusty
I'll respond to you because at least you're not thinking like an obsolete lunatic JoeSaurus.
Just bringing up "LLM" already tells me you have no idea what AI actually is beyond what the media is covering or how far technology has come. Thus no point to get into details other than ATC has almost nothing to do with LLM.
"There's simply too many variables"
Exactly why humans can't handle but computers can. Humans cannot calculate 5000 variables in a split second. Your iPhone can.
"it's just a probability model"
In a way, human brain works like that too. But that not the topic here.
Now I'll let you in on a secret.
Computers are not better in a few scenarios. I'll admit to that. But it's only rare cases not your everyday repetitive tasks.
I'm sure humans like JoeAmateur can get 20 planes to draw dick pics of different sizes and not crash into each other. Computers would lose to JoeAmateur or draw a less attractive dick. But if you're trying to get an object from point A to point B the most effectively, JoeSaurus would still be stuck on his 2nd dick.
"I'll respond to you because I am incapable of rebuffing Joe".
- fixed that for him.
End of the day: "cOmPUter DO GoodER mAtH" is not the same as there being a computer/AI system readily available to replace ATC.
That might explain why Eskimo can't put up when called out to name a proposal that has been put forward to replace controllers with AI/Automation. (Despite his claim I have directly "prevented" something like that)
..."I'll respond to you because I am incapable of rebuffing Joe".
- fixed that for him.
End of the day: "cOmPUter DO GoodER mAtH" is not the same as there being a computer/AI system readily available to replace ATC.
That might explain why Eskimo can't put up when called out to name a proposal that has been put forward to replace controllers with AI/Automation. (Despite his claim I have directly "prevented" something like that)
Makes a bunch of claims that he can't back up (including about controllers going AWOL for better pay), gets called out, won't respond.
WalMart quality trolling.
Putz.
@Eskimo
I know very well what AI is. Heck, my brother has a Masters in Artificial Intelligence from one of the best technology schools in the US. My own background is in computer science, and I've been doing software development for over a decade now. This is something we've discussed heavily, especially as ChatGPT, Dall-E, and other generative AIs began seeing widespread use and VCs and techbros started shouting from the rooftops about the...
@Eskimo
I know very well what AI is. Heck, my brother has a Masters in Artificial Intelligence from one of the best technology schools in the US. My own background is in computer science, and I've been doing software development for over a decade now. This is something we've discussed heavily, especially as ChatGPT, Dall-E, and other generative AIs began seeing widespread use and VCs and techbros started shouting from the rooftops about the AI revolution. I'm well aware that ATC has nothing to with those generative programs, because those do nothing except guess text/images based on their training model. But nevertheless those are what 99% of people think of when they think of AI today, because AI has become the new blockchain. A meaningless buzzword used to grift people.
So now that we're on the same page:
>Exactly why humans can't handle but computers can
You're confusing the ability to run complex calculations quickly with the ability to interpolate. A human can look at a situation with lots of variables and by both training and intuition come to a correct but less probable answer, especially when they don't know ALL the information. A computer faced with the same situation will spit out the most probable, but possibly incorrect answer, and worst case may fall back onto a default and wrong decision. For example, check how many Waymo taxis keep getting stuck in situations that a human would have no trouble navigating. This technology is not ready for mass adoption to automate humans out of life or death decisionmaking, and it won't be for a long time.
See JoeSaurus how Dusty can actually have a intelligence response.
@Dusty
Next time if you actually know a thing about AI or any other topic, use it properly. Talking about generative AI in this context makes you look clueless like Joe.
"A human can look at a situation with lots of variables and by both training and intuition come to a correct but less probable answer"
Correct. If you're trying to solve the ultimate...
See JoeSaurus how Dusty can actually have a intelligence response.
@Dusty
Next time if you actually know a thing about AI or any other topic, use it properly. Talking about generative AI in this context makes you look clueless like Joe.
"A human can look at a situation with lots of variables and by both training and intuition come to a correct but less probable answer"
Correct. If you're trying to solve the ultimate question or draw 20 dick picks in the sky simultaneously.
But you fail to account the dangerous human flaws, response time and fatigue.
For everyday repetitive tasks like ATC, especially what you can see from the scope is very limited. You're not going to have any significant unknown variables.
"For example, check how many Waymo taxis keep getting stuck"
The difference is the neighborhood isn't as complex to recognize as floating in the sky where only other objects are other planes and birds. And almost every plane follows instructions.
The streets that Waymo shares is also filled with dumb dinosaurs like Joe. Computers can't factor in how dumb and irrational JoeDumb is.
Waymo is going to get stuck if Joe wears no pants and shoes on his hands keeps jumping sideways in front of Waymo cars.
Whereas the airspace is 'theoretically' controlled and monitored by a person with authority and minimal deviation from the instructions given. Sure you'll have Blackhawk pilots from time to time, but those are minimal and can potentially be accounted for. If anything I'd say Waymo has way-mo variables to calculate in a smaller area with less decision making time than ATC.
But you're partially correct, if 20 pilots decided to deviate and draw dick pics in the sky simultaneously, or Tim Dunn says Delta is premium therefore deserves priority to land and depart. Human ATC can probably handle them better.
It's been a constructive discussion and we probably will agree to disagree. But don't underestimate the advancement of technology.
They said the same thing about Writght brothers, Apollo program or Steve Jobs that it can't be done.
Also like overestimating the intelligence and mindset of JoeDumb. He rather wants to live like king rather than make the skies safe.
@Eskimo
You may want to see somebody about this phallic fascination of yours. I mentioned generative AI because, as I said, that's what a vast majority of people think of today when AI is mentioned, and that's what a vast majority of current AI research is focused on because, surprise surprise, that's where all the money is.
You're deflecting about the Waymo example, you know that and I know that. The most recent example...
@Eskimo
You may want to see somebody about this phallic fascination of yours. I mentioned generative AI because, as I said, that's what a vast majority of people think of today when AI is mentioned, and that's what a vast majority of current AI research is focused on because, surprise surprise, that's where all the money is.
You're deflecting about the Waymo example, you know that and I know that. The most recent example was a Waymo getting stuck in a parking lot because it erroneously decided a multi-point turn was the best way to get out. A human would not make that mistake and then just sit there blocking the drive-thru. You have both a use case, the car entering a place where it shouldn't and failing to extricate itself, and a failure mode, the car stopping and waiting for help, that simply CANNOT work in aviation. You also have GA pilots, pilots who aren't listening, emergencies in the form of bird strikes or equipment failures, rejected takeoffs, rapidly changing weather conditions that may not be apparent from the tower instruments, the list goes on.
I'm not the layman telling you it's impossible for humanity to go to the moon. I'm the materials scientist telling you quality control on the rocket's propellant nozzle is not currently good enough to guarantee it will withstand the exhaust heat without catastrophic failure, and more time and investment is needed to create something that can. You are not the technocrat arguing with a luddite. You're the techbro promising an unproven technology can and will immediately work on a large scale 99.99999% of the time with zero technical background in what you're promising. That may work on the layman, but not on anybody with technical knowledge of what you're suggesting. You are Elon Musk promising that Full Self Driving is right around the corner... in 2014: https://www.jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-cars-anniversary-autopilot-1850432357/
@Dusty: nailed it with the Musk 2014 analogy.
Eskimo in the room creating a strawman to rage against- that I'm actively against improving safety- rather than that I'm acknowledging the same reality countless others have- we're not in a position to have AI take control of ATC.
The puzzling question is why he feels the need to do so. Pethaps he can't stand that other people have value?
@Dusty
Did you hear, I also pushed to eliminate human pilots too. The other error prone irrational, thus hard to predict variable. That leaves only 2 major known unknown, weather and birds.
All major aircraft failure can be predicted, they even have checklists for humans to troubleshoot. Maybe computers could have landed US1549, even human sims could.
Money, since you mentioned it, is one of the key reason dinosaurs don't leave their comfort zone....
@Dusty
Did you hear, I also pushed to eliminate human pilots too. The other error prone irrational, thus hard to predict variable. That leaves only 2 major known unknown, weather and birds.
All major aircraft failure can be predicted, they even have checklists for humans to troubleshoot. Maybe computers could have landed US1549, even human sims could.
Money, since you mentioned it, is one of the key reason dinosaurs don't leave their comfort zone. Implementing this in a large scale would cost much more than upgrading 60s technology to the 90s in 2025.
This is not material scientist saying rockets are not good. This is saying we know too many things can go wrong to send human to Mars. So let's just send more people to ISS for the next 50 years.
This is not Luddite and a textile weaving machine, it's explaining erobotic arm assembly line making nanosemiconductors but back in the 1800s
Full self driving would have worked 100% on streets with only Tesla and no pedestrians no drivers back in 2014.
Something easier to replicate in the sky than on the streets.
Like self driving cars, the only setback was after 10 years we still couldn't eliminate humans from the problem. The only mistake of Elon is thinking self driving cars and human drivers can coexist. Something that Elon overestimated, human intelligence. Just like a dinosaur trying to get attention and remain relevant.
@Eskimo, you didn't push to eliminate pilots. You ranted on a blog comment section. There is a difference. And either way, pilots won't get replaced either. Pilots can anticipate weather and airflow effects on the aircraft in a way that computers can't, which is an important skill when landing and taking off (you know, the most dangerous parts of the flight). Also, stop and think about things other than flying the plane. A passenger has...
@Eskimo, you didn't push to eliminate pilots. You ranted on a blog comment section. There is a difference. And either way, pilots won't get replaced either. Pilots can anticipate weather and airflow effects on the aircraft in a way that computers can't, which is an important skill when landing and taking off (you know, the most dangerous parts of the flight). Also, stop and think about things other than flying the plane. A passenger has a medical emergency and the plane needs to divert. How does the computer know this? Do you envision somebody up front managing the computer and communicating with the ground? If so, congrats, you've eliminated one of two bodies in the cockpit, and I'm assuming the guy will still be trained to fly the plane in case of a computer failure. If not, how does a flight attendant inform the computer that there's a problem requiring a diversion? Does she now have to be qualified on the radio, and have an ATC inform the plane it has to divert? You've just added additional points in a decision loop that could fail or delay long enough to cost somebody their life.
I have no problem with the government spending money to improve infrastructure and technology. My stance is that your demand for AI to replace ATC and pilots is not technologically feasible now and probably won't be for a decade at least, even if the the US government made it a real priority. And yes, this is absolutely a subject matter expert telling you you're wrong, especially since your expertise seems to only consist of "I did my own research".
>Full self driving would have worked 100% on streets with only Tesla and no pedestrians no drivers back in 2014.
Please for the love of whatever deity might exist re-read yourself and think for a minute. Pedestrians will always exist, even on interstate highways. In case you forgot, cars carry PEOPLE and PEOPLE get in and out of cars. If a car breaks down on the highway, somebody is getting OUT of the car to troubleshoot. If your solution ONLY works if you remove the ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE SOLUTION, you DONT HAVE A SOLUTION.
If you can't distinguish between people and pedestrian or how a flight attendant can inform a computer of an emergency I'm afraid our gap is too far apart. It was a good constructive conversation.
I hope the dinosaurs (other than JoeSaurus who wants to live like a king) still takes good care of both of us until they really do become obsolete.
Until then, stay safe. We don't have a choice.
And once again, our functionally regarded Peniskimo has ignored the calls to back up his claims and instead reached the conclusion that everyone is wrong but him.
Add to the list of phony claims he makes: "JoeSaurus wants to live like a king."
Not something I said. I did however point out that controller pay in the past meant that you could. Whereas pay has dimished so significantly now that those aspiring to be professionals...
And once again, our functionally regarded Peniskimo has ignored the calls to back up his claims and instead reached the conclusion that everyone is wrong but him.
Add to the list of phony claims he makes: "JoeSaurus wants to live like a king."
Not something I said. I did however point out that controller pay in the past meant that you could. Whereas pay has dimished so significantly now that those aspiring to be professionals are now often looking elsewhere.
But instead of advocating for change in that regard to attract top talent (which... surprise... could IMPROVE SAFETY), Peniskimo is chasing a fantasy about AI.
Meanwhile, he has this weird idea that he has no choice but to fly. He shouldn't be flying if he doesn't think it's safe, and frankly he shouldn't be taking advantage of ATC services if all he wants to do is shit on it.
Anyway, enough arguing with a MAGAesque loser for now. He can't ever put up but won't ever shut up.
Meanwhile, I'll continue my 15th year of excellent safety and smooth handling of passengers in spite of his douchy/unfounded "I dON't TRusT Yoo" spiel.
He probably would tremble trying to do the same job.
It takes more than money to implement a new system: it takes time. In the case of a system that integrates automated/AI piloting with automated/AI ATC, easily a decade.
For the fifth time: provide your evidence for your claims that controllers are actively preventing a readily available system from taking over.
Provide your evidence controllers are going AWOL for better pay.
Provide your evidence that the entire ATC workforce could drop dead and tomorrow you'll...
It takes more than money to implement a new system: it takes time. In the case of a system that integrates automated/AI piloting with automated/AI ATC, easily a decade.
For the fifth time: provide your evidence for your claims that controllers are actively preventing a readily available system from taking over.
Provide your evidence controllers are going AWOL for better pay.
Provide your evidence that the entire ATC workforce could drop dead and tomorrow you'll have AI up and running everything in a month.
If you can't do those things, it goes to show that your DinoObsoleWalmarDrawPenis rants are meaningless.
I'm sorry that me being relevant is so painful for you.
Cope harder.
"See JoeSaurus how Dusty can actually have a intelligence response."
You're such a clown, child.
1. It's "an intelligent response", genius.
2. Dusty's response is indeed intelligent. Go figure part of it includes "AI that could handle air traffic control essentially does not exist today and is unlikely to in the near future."
More intelligent than you.
Concur with Dusty you might want to self examine your phallic fixation. Is that what you have...
"See JoeSaurus how Dusty can actually have a intelligence response."
You're such a clown, child.
1. It's "an intelligent response", genius.
2. Dusty's response is indeed intelligent. Go figure part of it includes "AI that could handle air traffic control essentially does not exist today and is unlikely to in the near future."
More intelligent than you.
Concur with Dusty you might want to self examine your phallic fixation. Is that what you have to scrub off the walls in the WalMart bathroom?
Still waiting on backing up your claims, too.
You really know/talk a lot about Walmart. Not interested in working with you, sorry.
"Technology is already there and can take over very quick."
Nope. Even Musk/Trump pawn Duffy isn't that dumb. He's proposing new ATC facilities where controllers will work, no AI available.
"It's dinosaurs like you, your union, and you superiors that prevent it from happening"
Your understanding of the word "prevent" is just as bad as your understanding of the word "obsolete"....
You really know/talk a lot about Walmart. Not interested in working with you, sorry.
"Technology is already there and can take over very quick."
Nope. Even Musk/Trump pawn Duffy isn't that dumb. He's proposing new ATC facilities where controllers will work, no AI available.
"It's dinosaurs like you, your union, and you superiors that prevent it from happening"
Your understanding of the word "prevent" is just as bad as your understanding of the word "obsolete". In order to prevent a system from taking over, there'd first have to be a system and a proposal to have that system take over. No such system has been announced, no such proposal has been put forward, Einstein.
"Now you colleagues are holding public safety as hostage so you can "effectively live like a king" again. Going on a AWOL power trip doesn't make the public side with you."
This is a false claim in every possible regard. But your whole presence in every ATC related discussion has always been predicated on false claims. You have nothing more to contribute, and can't make rebuttals without.
Arguing with you about ATC is like arguing with MAGA about Trump.
To summarize:
Eskimo's most compelling arguments boil down to: 'technology has come a long way', 'trust me, brah', and 'nobody else understands anything about automation/computers/AI but me'. --- and that pretty much says it all.
Basically every article on the subject you can find concurs that AI/automation CANNOT replace ATC... and most of those articles suggest that will not change in our lifetime.
But for some bizarre reason, the existence of Air Traffic Controllers...
To summarize:
Eskimo's most compelling arguments boil down to: 'technology has come a long way', 'trust me, brah', and 'nobody else understands anything about automation/computers/AI but me'. --- and that pretty much says it all.
Basically every article on the subject you can find concurs that AI/automation CANNOT replace ATC... and most of those articles suggest that will not change in our lifetime.
But for some bizarre reason, the existence of Air Traffic Controllers seems to be some kind affront to Eskimo's ego- that he feels the need to insist against all evidence that the people doing the job are effectively worthless (as he likes to say "obsolete") scum.
My guess continues to be that he washed from the academy and has a chip on his shoulder about it. Poor chap.
Your summary really worries me that a person like you is responsible for public lives.
Just like in the late 1800s people say a flying machine is crazy and impossible.
Just like people in th 50s says it's impossible to go to the moon.
And your basing what you think is possible because all you can find is articles written by dinosaurs? It's called confirmation bias. But surely you lack the intelligence to understand...
Your summary really worries me that a person like you is responsible for public lives.
Just like in the late 1800s people say a flying machine is crazy and impossible.
Just like people in th 50s says it's impossible to go to the moon.
And your basing what you think is possible because all you can find is articles written by dinosaurs? It's called confirmation bias. But surely you lack the intelligence to understand that word or what it means.
This is already wasting time explaining this, but consider this my gift to dinosaurs before they become extinct.
If the dinosaur thinks no articles says anything about asteroids, then too bad. But the astroid is coming.
Your aptitude and intelligence says it all. And I apologize to Walmart, they're better off without you.
You should go door-to-door selling Flat earth for dummies book. You'll fit just right in.
A dinosaur using an inefficient method selling impaired knowledge on a obsolete media.
That summarizes you.
Rest assured, Eskimo's concerns about me are as founded as the rest of the dumb shit he says
Notice he says "confirmation bias" but once again misses the key opportunity to rebuff said bias. (Likely because he has no rebuttal/alternative information to offer)---- he just launches back into his broken record "dinosaur" spiel.
Even his examples are grossly flawed: someone screaming "we clan fly to the moon TOMORROW, the TECH IS THERE" in the 50's...
Rest assured, Eskimo's concerns about me are as founded as the rest of the dumb shit he says
Notice he says "confirmation bias" but once again misses the key opportunity to rebuff said bias. (Likely because he has no rebuttal/alternative information to offer)---- he just launches back into his broken record "dinosaur" spiel.
Even his examples are grossly flawed: someone screaming "we clan fly to the moon TOMORROW, the TECH IS THERE" in the 50's -like he does today regarding AI--- would be off by a MINIMUM of 9 years.
The rest of his reply was more name calling, still no backing up claims.
Waiting on: backing up the fake claim EWR controllers went AWOL as opposed to approved leave.
Backing up the fake claim that same controllers did so on the basis of "pay".
Backing up the fake claim that controllers, their union, and superiors "prevented" some kind of AI/Automation system from taking over ATC.
Once again, it's like arguing with MAGA: "everyone who disagrees with me is a liberal commie and I don't have to back up the things I say"----- in this case "everyone who disagrees with me is an obsolete dinosaur who isn't good enough to work with me at WalMart, and I don't have to back up the things I say."
I have an advanced STEM degree and several years ago, I was looking into a possible career change and thought ATC could be interesting. Checked the government website - it was clear that I "too old" to even apply for a job. I have friends who have started medical school at ages that are too old to start ATC training. I recall the cutoff at 35 year/old - no wonder they dont have enough
I have two advanced STEM degrees that I got later in my life, and I considered looking into doing ATC training, but I am too old. It sure is no wonder there is staff shortages for them all across the country. Young people just aren't very interested in it, and the older people who are, are barred from attempting to start. Very silly if you ask me.
There are more than enough qualified applicants under the 31 age cutoff. Problems all come after that: bottleneck at the OKC academy means if 10,000 people are qualified, only 1500 or so can be hired. Then there's the number of people who can make it through the academy, number of people who can make it through OJT, number of people who quit after realizing they will be stuck somewhere they don't want to be working...
There are more than enough qualified applicants under the 31 age cutoff. Problems all come after that: bottleneck at the OKC academy means if 10,000 people are qualified, only 1500 or so can be hired. Then there's the number of people who can make it through the academy, number of people who can make it through OJT, number of people who quit after realizing they will be stuck somewhere they don't want to be working 6 days a week for countless years on a rotating schedule that takes years off your life all for an inadequate amount of pay (that the flying public and your own union will try to gaslight you into thinking is GREAT!!!). Trust me, with a degree, you're better off away from ATC.
There were no empty seats at the academy because they didn't hire over age 30. There are always eligible applicants waiting. They simply did not hire.
Ben, you obviously have sources all across the aviation industry. I strongly suggest you use these sources to look into the process of taking the EWR airspace and forcing it to be moved to PHL. Most in the public doesn’t know about this and need to understand it was the catalyst for these major issues we’ve had that people are just now hearing about
I see no silver lining in this. And I think, sadly, there might have to be another tragic castrophe like AA5342 @ DCA before we see meaningful action by this impotent, declining government.
All empires come and go .....,.
Ben, Toxic Tim’s timeout was a lovely respite for your readers. He clearly learned nothing from that experience. Like many longtime readers, I find that his nonsense distorts your blog and makes me not want to read.
The truth the FAA will deliver to UA will be far harder for you and a whole lot of other people than anything I can possibly write.
I don't have enforcement power. The DOT and FAA do.
ditto
Don't read. Ain't nobody gonna miss you.
Bye Felicia.
It's crazy how people fixate on Timm Dunn, if you don't like him then ignore his posts. Don't go to the comment section at all if just seeing his name triggers you and you will be save. Problem solved.
The FAA National Airspace Status page shows that EWR has 101 minute ground delays which is considerably less than it was earlier today.
It is highly unlikely that the report is true or the FAA pulled in staffing.
and let's be clear that the real root of all of this chaos at EWR is because UA and other airlines - UA still has over 2/3 of the flights at EWR - failed to pulldown...
The FAA National Airspace Status page shows that EWR has 101 minute ground delays which is considerably less than it was earlier today.
It is highly unlikely that the report is true or the FAA pulled in staffing.
and let's be clear that the real root of all of this chaos at EWR is because UA and other airlines - UA still has over 2/3 of the flights at EWR - failed to pulldown schedules enough to reflect the planned closure of one of the two parallel runways. UA has operated 65-70% of the flights at EWR since it took over the EWR hub from CO which also operated about the same percentage.
And despite the calls by Kirby to re-add slot controls to EWR, no other carrier has sustained more than 5% of the flights at EWR and yet on-time performance at the airport has lagged LGA and JFK since the CO hub was opened.
EWR is simply not capable of operating as a hub the way CO and UA have used it.
Yes, the FAA has to get the IT supporting EWR working and reliable and they have to staff the facilities but the real meltdown has been due to overscheduling.
and the more that EWR is in the news - it makes every national newscast these days - the more traffic shifts to LGA and JFK to the benefit of AA, B6 and mostly DL.
and the FAA is still planning to impose strict capacity limits at EWR that will decimate the UA EWR hub as we know it now.
Typical Tim Dunn the UA hater.
You actually blame ATC meltdown on UA.
It's a matter of time before Matthew the UA apologist will kick you out.
ATC technology has failed multiple times at EWR.
ATC is NOT failing to do the job of getting planes in and out of EWR w/ the available runway capacity.
Tell me how many flights UA had scheduled at EWR the day before the runway closed for replacement and how many they have now.
THAT is the reason for the delays.
the FAA IS responsible for getting controllers on the job and to provide the...
ATC technology has failed multiple times at EWR.
ATC is NOT failing to do the job of getting planes in and out of EWR w/ the available runway capacity.
Tell me how many flights UA had scheduled at EWR the day before the runway closed for replacement and how many they have now.
THAT is the reason for the delays.
the FAA IS responsible for getting controllers on the job and to provide the technology they need to do their job.
The delays are NOT because of the latter as much as some want to blame the FAA.
It is not about hating anyone.
It is about cutting through the noise to get to reality.
I agree.
"It is about cutting through the noise to get to reality."
But the problem is and always will be, Tim's reality is completely different than the normal people reality.
Why don't you blame UA for grocery prices too?
Reagan shockingly fired 11,000 ATC live on air from the WH Rose Garden for going on strike. ( no fan of Reagan ). Many ATC returned to work, but those that did not were replaced by military ATC. Apparently it worked quite well. Nobody died. Not saying this is not the same situation, but poaching from the military might make sense now.
No. I've had the past 7 of 8 prior exp mil trainees wash out. Must compare NAS complexity, volume, and equipment, and also look at how canned mil ATC has become in most areas. (Eglin and some excepted.)
You obviously know nothing about the current ATC system and how much busier and complex it is than in the 80s. There is absolutely zero chance military controllers can work any busy level of traffic at an ARTCC or a busy TRACON environment such as EWR. The entire airspace system would come to a halt and airlines would lose billions.
Ron, they are working in the same space. Military ATC are in fact more busy and dealing with more complex issues. Many are younger because of enlistment time. Try to place classically trained ATC on an aircraft carrier. Or in a combat zone. You know nothing.
@Maryland: it's adorable you think that about military ATC. I'm ATC of 15 years, and every military controller I've worked with would concur that what happened in the 80s couldn't be replicated today.
Hell, it takes about a year for an inbound military hire with experience to learn a mid-level facilities operation. Two years+ for a higher level.
I was classically trained ATC from the USAF, and worked in combat zones as well. Airspace and procedures are too complex to pull off a PATCO replacement again.
"Traumatic event" aka stress like everyone who works a job?
Weak people. Or at least greedy.
Were you homeschooled by a racoon?
Depends on if the home is in US or UK.
Would be taught by raccoon in the US.
Regardless, racoon or raccoon, both are in a union.
What GPA did the raccoon give you?
I'm confident the stress of dropping your customers' french fry order on the floor is exactly on par with the stress of losing contact with lives you are responsible for.
Y'all thought the FAA & the FDA were here for our safety? Lmao, gotcha!
It was. But things changed after 20 Jan 2025.
Not for FAA.
Things changed since the MAX went down and wasn't grounded immediately. Not Jan 20.
@DrDisrespect
The FDA was here for our health by allowing all of these gums, carrageenans, dyes and additives in our food for decades?
@Alonzo
See how effective propaganda works.
You're blaming dyes and additives.
The real criminals are sugar and caffeine, the two most effective drug ever.
One is unsure if this is still the case today, however, in my day LHR ATC was shadowed by RAF Uxbridge who could intervene.
In the UK the RAF ATC’s could be called in to aid the civil community, is that not also the case in the U.S.?
Military called in to aid civilians.
That's the snowflake's politically correct way to call a coup d'etat.
Eskimo in the. US military it's called TDY, you are temporarily transferred. You loose no time in accruing your service time and benefits.
Ok Maryland. I stand corrected.
TDY. That's the US snowflake's politically correct way to call a coup d'etat.
You are temporarily transferred to become the commander in chief. You loose no time in accruing your service time and benefits.
I honestly cannot understand your foolishness about this.
Eskimo, I find much of what you post to be interesting and possibly credible. The drivel you have posted in response to my factual statement is the exception. One can actually detect an uneducated troll like response in your words, bro.
In some cases overlying facilities could take over airspace in emergency situations.
But that still drastically increases workload for that overlying facility, and introduces risk because those controllers will not likely be proficient in handling the other airspace.
In terms of bringing in Military to help--- it will do little to no good.
In the movies, you'll see an experienced controller--- top dog type A personality--- arrive at a new facility and plug their...
In some cases overlying facilities could take over airspace in emergency situations.
But that still drastically increases workload for that overlying facility, and introduces risk because those controllers will not likely be proficient in handling the other airspace.
In terms of bringing in Military to help--- it will do little to no good.
In the movies, you'll see an experienced controller--- top dog type A personality--- arrive at a new facility and plug their headset in and start working. In reality, they have anywhere from 10 months to 3 years worth of training they need to do to understand the operation and be able to safely work it all.
It’s astounding how the United States has allowed key infrastructure to become degraded over the years. ATC, bridges, roads, even the nuclear missile silos which rely on ancient computer disks. You are all a hair’s breadth from disaster. Start raising taxes to pay for modernization before it’s too late.
Trump was trying to raise tax to 145%.
It has nothing to do with needing to raise taxes, the issue is our tax money is going to lots and lots of foreign aid and other nonsense. It's effectively just being siphoned out of our country.
Please, @Concerned Citizen and @Lieflat19, please just do a modicum of research before spouting off this BS. A vast majority of US spending stays in the US to benefit Americans. Mandatory spending, which at this point makes up around 61% of the total US budget, provides the money for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, children's foster care, Veterans benefits, and so on. That's money that lets seniors get healthcare and live in retirement homes rather...
Please, @Concerned Citizen and @Lieflat19, please just do a modicum of research before spouting off this BS. A vast majority of US spending stays in the US to benefit Americans. Mandatory spending, which at this point makes up around 61% of the total US budget, provides the money for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, children's foster care, Veterans benefits, and so on. That's money that lets seniors get healthcare and live in retirement homes rather than on homeless the street, money that helps the poorest Americans afford food and continue to contribute to society, money that takes care of people who made the choice to serve our country through military service. All that money goes back into our own economy in the form of spending on groceries, doctors, housing, etc.
Out of the discretionary spending, a vast majority of that goes to the military. It pays soldiers, it pays for military equipment built in the US, and it pays for the services to support that. Beyond that, you have vital government institutions like the postal service, Center for Disease Control, land management and the national park service, the list goes on. The tens of millions we spend to fight Ebola and other diseases in Africa, or feed people in places experience famine and civil strife, are quite literally fractions of a penny on the budget and not only help people, they give people around the world a positive opinion of the US, contributing to our soft power.
The real wealth being siphoned out of the country is the stock holdings of billionaires. All of that money just sits there for the sole purpose of accumulating more money and power. Freaking laughable to hear you complain about food stamps but crickets on Musk or Bezo's obscene wealth that does nothing other than buy political influence and yachts from Europe. Those are the people who should be getting taxed, even if we taxed them 50% annually on stock holdings over $100 million they'd still live fantastically privileged lifestyles. But they wouldn't be able to just up and buy entire media networks and turn them into disinfo machines.
All the tax money has gone to fund illegal aliens, pet projects, government handouts for food, housing, va benefits, etc. it's astounding how bad it is.
Propaganda machine working good.
Not a mention of any proxy wars. The largest is spent on defense.
The propaganda is so good, they make you believe the best defense is offense. So there we are leading the proxy offense.