AT&T and Verizon are planning on deploying their new 5G technology in many markets across the United States as of tomorrow (Wednesday, January 19, 2022). We’ve heard that this could have catastrophic impacts on airline operations, and we’re now seeing the first concrete example of that.
In this post:
Emirates suspending service to most US markets
Emirates has just announced that it is suspending a majority of flights to the United States due to the planned launch of 5G tomorrow. Specifically, flights are suspended to all destinations in the United States, except Los Angeles (LAX), New York (JFK), and Washington (IAD). Here’s how the Dubai-based airline describes this in a memo to employees:
Due to operational concerns associated with the planned deployment of 5G mobile network services in the US at certain airports, Emirates will be suspending flights to the following US destinations from 19 January 2022 until further notice:
Boston (BOS), Chicago (ORD), Dallas Fort Worth (DFW), Houston (IAH), Miami (MIA), Newark (EWR), Orlando (MCO), San Francisco (SFO) and Seattle (SEA).
Customers holding tickets with the final destination to any of the above will not be accepted at the point of origin.
Emirates flights to New York JFK, Los Angeles (LAX) and Washington DC (IAD) continue to operate as scheduled.
While the airline doesn’t state for how long service is suspended, as of now all inventory has been zeroed out through January 31, 2022. Of course I imagine that could be moved forward or extended based on how this situation evolves.
Wireless providers have agreed to not deploy the new technology near select airports. I’m not sure if Emirates is continuing service to three cities because there’s less risk of 5G interference near these airports, or if it’s because of the aircraft type used (though these routes are operated by both A380s and 777s).
Other international airlines canceling US flights as well
Emirates isn’t the only international airline to cancel most flights to the United States. Air India, All Nippon Airways, and Japan Airlines, have all suspended most routes to the United States as well.
I imagine the list of airlines suspending flights to the United States will continue to grow. It’s interesting how international airlines are taking action before US airlines.
It looks like airlines are serious about 5G concerns?
For weeks we’ve seen a spat over the deployment of 5G. On one side you have the FAA and airlines, and on the other side you have the FCC and telecommunications companies:
- Airlines and the FAA argue that the deployment of 5G could interfere with aircraft navigation systems, and that the deployment of this could have major impacts on airline operations
- Telecommunications companies and the FCC argue that the technology is safe, has been tested, and is being used in other countries without issues
I’m obviously not an expert on this, but I have seen so many news stories about how if this technology is deployed, the impact on airlines could be huge. I’ve wondered whether that was just a bluff on the part of airlines and the FAA, or if it was serious.
Prior to this announcement, we haven’t seen any airline concretely state what 5G would mean for operations. It’s interesting that a non-US airline is the first to announce service cancelations as a result of the deployment of this.
I’m very curious to see how this situation evolves over the next 24 hours. Is Emirates overreacting here, or is air travel in the United States about to shut down?
Bottom line
We’ve heard that new 5G technology could have major impacts on airline operations, and we’re now seeing the first example of that. Emirates is suspending most flights to the United States effective immediately, which I didn’t see coming. It’s interesting to me that Emirates is the first airline to take drastic measures.
What do you make of Emirates suspending flights to most US markets?
"Telecommunications companies and the FCC argue that the technology is safe, has been tested, and is being used in other countries without issues".
In order to allay fear of interruptions to telecommunications by American 5G, all American airlines must invite all White House officials including the President and Vice President and all cabinet secretaries, and all Senators and House Representatives to fly around the country.
If the planes crash, then American 5G indeed has...
"Telecommunications companies and the FCC argue that the technology is safe, has been tested, and is being used in other countries without issues".
In order to allay fear of interruptions to telecommunications by American 5G, all American airlines must invite all White House officials including the President and Vice President and all cabinet secretaries, and all Senators and House Representatives to fly around the country.
If the planes crash, then American 5G indeed has a very serious problem.
Perhaps a handy excuse to not fly unprofitable routes.
They rolled it back today. Back to business
Had to start with the Trump bashing
I think this is just a distraction by Emirates to take away from the scary takeoff, and continuation on to the US without going back to the airport, that the FAA is investigating. Kind of like their sudden increase in marketing...
If they are so concerned then why is flying into JFK, LAX and IAD okay?
You are out of date, Emirates have notified resumption of these flights.
This is just an excuse to cut costs during slow business - otherwise why wouldn't they cancel flights to New York & LA (its most lucrative markets)? And France has rolled out 5G everywhere - do you don't see Emirates cancelling flights there? Nope.
The UAE has already 5G all over. But its the safe and tested Huawei. The clowns in the U.S still struggling
Well…..we are going to find out ! Aren’t we
Over reacting,why maybe it will impact there income since people will do everything on line now
What a great article!¡!!!!! Dw
Stuart
Grow up
If the Emirates,one of the best airline fell to suspensions of flight to U.S because of safety concerns the airline has all the right until further information provided.
Great idea this will getca business to american airlines that desperately need it
It is trade protectionism similar to what the rest of the world. Look at canada won't allow us airlines to star operations domestically so does all the countries about tome uncle sam took notice.. that's a kings move.
So where is Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg on this important transportation issue? I know he is not at the Port of Los Angeles trying to save Christmas 2021, or is he? Another feckless appointee! God help us!
ANA resuming "normal" operations to/from USA on their 777 from 1/20 onward, saw this while logged in to their website
The reason is that the 5G frequency used in USA is in a deferent band width and Antennas in Europe specially in Germany are placed in different angles around and close to the airport so they don't interfere with the aircraft electronics
There is a buffer frequency between US 5G frequencies and the frequency used for airline instruments. This was set up by the Federal communications commission as a safety feature but this false hysteria from the airlines and people that don't know anything about science is incredible. Airlines have known about this deployment for a long time and have done virtually nothing.
The FAA is the one putting restrictions on the approaches.
Sounds like it's just an undo The FAA and the FCC are at odds on this issue. The FCC approve these frequencies and made accommodation for the airlines and the buffer frequency in between. The FAA commissioner and the FCC commissioner have had a war of words in recent weeks on this issue, and the FCC commissioner is correct.
Agreed 100%
The buffer is smaller in the USA than elsewhere & it seems to only effect Boeing 777 & 787..possibly more.
Another reason why "If it's a Boeing I'm not going" & why the US is off my travel destinations.
This are probably pre-emptive actions to avoid the challenges and excess costs associated with last minute cancellations in the scenario that the FAA and the FCC cannot come to a resolution.
I think it may be an excuse to cancel flights that have lower demand recently. I people should consider other countries that have already have 5G networks running in a major way and this did not happen there. Equally it could be about the difference of the companies. Both Apple and other devices have a type of OS but are different. This may be the same thing.
@Kevin
Good point Kevin. There is no cure for brandonitis.
good point kevin?.. it must be nice to have a single point of failure to point to for all that you perceive to be wrong with our country and world. my wish for you two, apart from refraining from spewing your misguided and hateful thoughts in public forums, is to gain some perspective and inner peace. new year, new you??…
If my Milan JFK flight is cancelled in March Emirates and Chase Bank will get an earful from me along with lawsuits. I’m not traveling to the Middle East. They have to convert my Emirates points back to my Chase Sapphire. That is theft of services and breach of contract.
Lol
Game of thrones...
Lucky, why was my comment deleted?
Here’s summary of the issue:
1. The C Band to be used by AT&T and Verizon use 3.7GHz- 4.0GHz. The Altimeters use 4.2GHz. There’s a gap of 220MHz but FAA and airlines are concerned, it’s not enough especially for old/faulty altimeters.
2. The issue was first identified in 2018. Then during rule making in 2019 FCC, AT&T and Verizon proposed to replace the altimeters but nothing was...
Lucky, why was my comment deleted?
Here’s summary of the issue:
1. The C Band to be used by AT&T and Verizon use 3.7GHz- 4.0GHz. The Altimeters use 4.2GHz. There’s a gap of 220MHz but FAA and airlines are concerned, it’s not enough especially for old/faulty altimeters.
2. The issue was first identified in 2018. Then during rule making in 2019 FCC, AT&T and Verizon proposed to replace the altimeters but nothing was done
3. T Mobile is not impacted as they use different range for C bands. Other countries that use these frequency, use them with lower power to not impact altimeters. This is the proposed compromise until permanent solution
4. Wireless companies delayed the launch of C band few times. They aren’t willing to anymore as they paid $65B to buy the spectrum but can’t use it.
Hopefully this won’t be deleted.
The problem isn’t 5G. It’s 5G over C-Band. The FCC was warned repeatedly not to repurpose C-Band into cell service. Repeatedly. But the FCC led by Trumpie lawyer Ajit Pai refused to listen and auctioned off this frequency space anyway. You don’t see T-Mobile caught up in this mess. The Germans were aware of the issues and steered clear. This is another Trump-created problem.
Doesn't your side ever get tired of blaming Trump? He hasn't been president for a year. What's Biden been doing to solve it? Where has he been? Oh yeah, he's been busy ending the virus, fixing the supply chain crisis, reducing inflation etc.
Doesn't your side ever get tired of trying to pretend Trump's failures didn't exist? He hasn't been President for a year, but things that his administration explicitly did somehow aren't his issue? Grow up and stop fetishizing and worshiping and orange reality TV "star."
My fiance' is from Nigeria and if the flights are not coming to the US how will we marry this is SO unfair to lots of families
Here’s a good article with necessary details. In summary:
1. The issue is mainly with older/faulty altimeters which will likely be affected by C band signals
2. Best solution, identify and replace all faulty altimeters. This was proposed in 2019 during rules making but was never agreed for obvious reasons ($)
3. There is a gap of 220MHz but it may not be enough for older altimeters. Many countries with Cband 5g...
Here’s a good article with necessary details. In summary:
1. The issue is mainly with older/faulty altimeters which will likely be affected by C band signals
2. Best solution, identify and replace all faulty altimeters. This was proposed in 2019 during rules making but was never agreed for obvious reasons ($)
3. There is a gap of 220MHz but it may not be enough for older altimeters. Many countries with Cband 5g have been operating them at lower power levels to not impact altimeters
4. This issue was first raised in 2018 but previous administration didn’t address it. This admin, delayed the C band implementation for few months hoping to get it addressed but haven’t been able to.
5. AT&T and Verizon, having paid $65B don’t want to delay it further. T Mobile is not impacted as it operates a different band 2.2GHz. The other two are using 3.7GHz to 4.0 GHz. Altimeters start st 4.2GHz
https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/4/22867221/att-verizon-5g-midband-spectrum-faa-air-safety-delay-cband
This problem affects new altimeters as well...as the Dreamliner 777 is affected by the 5G waves too.
So if this is affecting 777. This brings me to some conspiracy theory.
With Delta retiring all their 777 but United and AA aren't. Even when airlines are backtracking retirements DL still isn't.
What about subsidiaries.
49% in Virgin Atlantic, no 777.
20% in Aeromexico, no 777.
10% in LATAM, only 3% of fleet is a 777.
Or less than 1% if you add all those airlines together.
But 777...
So if this is affecting 777. This brings me to some conspiracy theory.
With Delta retiring all their 777 but United and AA aren't. Even when airlines are backtracking retirements DL still isn't.
What about subsidiaries.
49% in Virgin Atlantic, no 777.
20% in Aeromexico, no 777.
10% in LATAM, only 3% of fleet is a 777.
Or less than 1% if you add all those airlines together.
But 777 is around 60% each of both AA UA longhaul fleet.
Look at the exposure.
Does Ed know something the rest of us doesn't? Or was he behind all these 5G allegations.
How can you be so curious that US airlines haven't yet acted? They'd have to shut down so many routes that it'd cripple the airlines
US airlines were among the last globally to ground 737MAX, so no surprise here if US airlines are doing nothing.
We will now be travelling by sea . To God be the glory.
Are countries with Huawei 5G equipment experiencing these difficulties?
A free advice which seems will be very valuable to yo - It’s better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed a fool than to open it and remove all doubts
Thanks Ole!
So basically you don't have any evidence to counter what they said? So you're happy with the Brandon admin? Which accomplishment are you most proud of: "shutting down covid", rampant inflation, or out of control crime, or a bungled Afghanistan withdrawal? Tough choice I know. LGB!
Seems you injected bleach to get rid of covid. Only if there was a magic pill for vovid! There is called vaccines. But morons won’t take it in the name of “freedom” and blame government for not controlling covid. The mishandling of covid by bafoon caused supply chain issues which exacerbated inflation. Again your bafoon, set an arbitrary deadline for Afghan withdrawal which “Brandon” didn’t have a choice but to follow. All this is readily...
Seems you injected bleach to get rid of covid. Only if there was a magic pill for vovid! There is called vaccines. But morons won’t take it in the name of “freedom” and blame government for not controlling covid. The mishandling of covid by bafoon caused supply chain issues which exacerbated inflation. Again your bafoon, set an arbitrary deadline for Afghan withdrawal which “Brandon” didn’t have a choice but to follow. All this is readily available outside of your MAGAverse. But the bleach tgat you injected, damaged your brain abd now it can’t think properly
Proud of every single thing the president has done compared to the one before. These airlines didn't want to spend the money to upgrade their faulty equipment, and that is on them
. As far as the other things you mentioned, you do realize inflation is worldwide not just in the United States and as far as Afghanistan , when you have an incompetent military that was trained by America's Best it's not our problem.
Let's see, the FCC under Donald Trump sold these 5G c band frequencies to the carriers for 64 billion dollars or so. So now the followers are the former president are blaming Biden for this issue. That's hilarious.
The FCC under the Trump administration sold these 5G c band frequencies to the telecom carriers for around 64 billion dollars. So now you want the Biden administration to fix a problem created by Trump, priceless. As far as your comment on vaccinations, unvaccinated people mostly Republicans are the cause of the current spread in the United States. You want to fix it, you wouldn't like it. The requirement should be that you be fully...
The FCC under the Trump administration sold these 5G c band frequencies to the telecom carriers for around 64 billion dollars. So now you want the Biden administration to fix a problem created by Trump, priceless. As far as your comment on vaccinations, unvaccinated people mostly Republicans are the cause of the current spread in the United States. You want to fix it, you wouldn't like it. The requirement should be that you be fully vaccinated and boosted before getting on any airline or stepping foot in any airport or public transportation. What do you bet those on the right would agree to that?
Any new on YYZ route?
You really don't know that YYZ is in Canada and not the US???
Too much automation is troublesome. Emirates pilots are more flight deck managers than actually flying the planes themselves. Hence they are the most impacted airline due to 5G roll out in the US markets. The recent takeoff incident at DXB on a flight to IAD pointed this issue of relying too much on automation.
I disagree. On the contrary, the recent DXB-IAD pointed the issue of relying too little on automation and too much on humans.
Don't blame computers for human error.
Commercial airplanes are oversophisticated. If I can simulate MSFS and fly on my laptop, I'm sure my laptop is powerful enough to fully automate a 777. Now if only ATC is an AI that talks directly to my plane computers, that would eliminate near miss too.
Woah, did you just compare MSFS to actually automating a real plane, that's actually flying in real air? Talk about a failed education system.
5G has been rolled out in dozens of countries around the world since around 2018. One of the first places (in Australia) was at all airports. No problems with any planes landing at the local football ground nor dropping from the sky.
So what is so different about US 5G?
The USA seems to be using different frequencies to other countries that are more problematic for aircraft... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60045077
Different frequency.
Just like why different country have different Voltage and Sockets.
You plug your 110v in a 220v, your equipment blows up.
5G has been in development for how long and this is just now coming to light? I think that the airlines want to blame this on route and schedule changes due to the staffing at these airlines! This is bogus!
The selling of bandwidth during the Bush administration is just plan stupid. At the very least these frequencies should have been leased not purchased. This took money out of taxpayers hands and gave it to the big coms. In my industry (Broadway) it has already cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars because our frequencies have been sold and we've had to replace perfectly working gear.
And now, the buyers of these frequencies were...
The selling of bandwidth during the Bush administration is just plan stupid. At the very least these frequencies should have been leased not purchased. This took money out of taxpayers hands and gave it to the big coms. In my industry (Broadway) it has already cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars because our frequencies have been sold and we've had to replace perfectly working gear.
And now, the buyers of these frequencies were given the power to inundate airline bandwidth? Ridiculous.
And what did Obama, or Biden, do about it, if this problem was so foreseeable, obvious, and dangerous? And what otger Dems raised the alarm in the last 1 1/2 decades? Just curious if anything bad that happens during a Dem presidency can ever be linked to their own leadership...seems not. Same old game, it's bushes fault, Trump's fault etc etc. Most people are slow, but they are finally catching on.
Will Emirates upgrade the IAD route to an A380 then if they are continuing it?
Do you know which frequency band is used in the US for 5G? In Europe there is some 5G between 700Mhz and 2600Mhz, but nothing higher yet, although it’s in the norm.
Mayor Pete knew all along this was an issue…this Administration is the worst in US History. What a disgrace…the US airlines have been warning about this for months. Again…what a train wreck!
This happened a long time ago. Read my post, please.
"Yet a simpler and more serious lesson might also have emerged. This dust-up spilled over from the previous administration, which allowed crucial positions, including for some time the chief of the NTIA, to remain empty. (This month, a new chief was finally confirmed.) More generally, President Donald Trump’s White House displayed disregard for the intricacies of the inner, quieter workings of the executive branch. These intricacies, it turns out, matter: to keep the lights on,...
"Yet a simpler and more serious lesson might also have emerged. This dust-up spilled over from the previous administration, which allowed crucial positions, including for some time the chief of the NTIA, to remain empty. (This month, a new chief was finally confirmed.) More generally, President Donald Trump’s White House displayed disregard for the intricacies of the inner, quieter workings of the executive branch. These intricacies, it turns out, matter: to keep the lights on, to keep the planes flying and to keep our phones up to modern-day snuff."
This from the WaPo. So be careful who you start to blame. There is plenty to go around.
Wow, wapo blaming it on Republicans? Shocking. Well, case closed! Seriously, is critical thinking a lost skill in this country? Are propaganda hit pieces just taken at face value now? Pretty sad what we have devolved to.
Bush Jr did this.
In their rush to give away things to big bidness.....
Wow, and I thought blaming everything on Trump was gouche. Way to raise the bar!
I don't get this. I'm from Dubai and we have 5G everywhere literally the entire country (UAE). How is Emirates running in Dubai with 5G already active while flights are being cancelled only in a few US cities? (Does 5G in the US work different?).
Anyways, I call sus activity, probs some US govt. BS hampering travel.
The US is using a different frequency than other countries. The frequency the US decided to use is the one causing the issues. That's why Emirates can operate in the UAE - the frequencies there do not conflict with those used by the radio altimeter - whilst it cannot in the US.
Once again, the U.S. is out of step with the world... The 5G frequency chosen in the U.S. for cellphones was very similar to the instrument landing frequency... Hello, how did they not know this. RE: Emerites flying to some airports, for instance, IAD does not have cellphone interference issues, thus the flight is continuing....
AA just grounded all it's 777
source?
Reportedly IS 5G can affect only radar altimeters needed for ILS Cat III approaches. These are the type of approaches utilized in 0/0 visibility conditions and full auto land mode.
ILS cat I approached are not affected. Usually celling minimums are 200 ft AGL and 1/2 mile visibility. Radar altimeter is not required for Cat I.
I am not sure how often Cat III approaches are utilized. Perhaps some airline types can comment.
Not sure if it's related but our 1150pm AF009 JFKCDG is cancelled? Interestingly the inbound AF008 is landing in 3 hours.
As if 4G isnt fast enough...
IMHO this is all BS. I had a long career in the medical industry and for a long time there was concern over cell phone impact on medical devices. I can't remember a single case (and I was CIO of a national hospital management company) where that occurred. These are separate spectrums. There shouldn't be any issues. Part of the concern on the part of airlines is the FAA issuing rules related to 5G that...
IMHO this is all BS. I had a long career in the medical industry and for a long time there was concern over cell phone impact on medical devices. I can't remember a single case (and I was CIO of a national hospital management company) where that occurred. These are separate spectrums. There shouldn't be any issues. Part of the concern on the part of airlines is the FAA issuing rules related to 5G that would significantly slow down take off and landings. Frankly, Biden needs to get the head of the FCC and the FAA in the same room so they can at least get on the same page in order to determine what, if any, impact there will be and then set rules to move forward. 5G isn't going away (6G is already under development) so we have to get past this concern.
BTW - I also love how you still are supposed to put cell phones in "airline" mode. I bet dozens on each flight don't do so and that hasn't impacted airlines. Also, when we used to fly private (at a former company) we ALWAYS had our cell phones on (and so did our pilots). No impact what so ever.
I suspect the FAA is being overly cautious. Maybe after the 737 Max certification fiasco some caution is warranted but this is absolutely crazy and a huge over reaction.
Looks like the 5G rollout was put on hold at Biden's request. Does his mean Emirates will revert back the decision?
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/att-delay-5g-airlines-raise-alarms-82329935
Umm hasn't 5G been rolled out just fine in like 40 other countries? By the way the phone companies have agreed not to turn on certain towers near runways.
Read the explanation given above. The bandwidth used in the US is adjacent to the ones used for altimeters. Not so in other countries. Also, countries in Europe left buffers around airports, where the altimeters that could be used in low-visibility landings are most critical.
According to The Points Guy its just 777 and based on Boeings advice! ANA and JAL included
https://thepointsguy.com/news/boeing-777-cancelations-5g-emirates-jal-ana/?utm_content=B7AED212-789E-11EC-8307-B701BECD475E&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=Editorial&utm_campaign=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1s2woesSNQnG34YNn1jiRGNjIeS6Y8o5t4QmHUrPigX4wmY1JMg4mZbmY
The more of these stories I have read, the more it looks like a Boeing issue. Seems the 777 is most impacted. How long has Boeing known this is a problem, without taking action to fix the 777 altimeters? Has Boeing just been counting on the strategy of convincing the Federal government to accommodate their problem?
Convenient excuse to get out of routes airline doesn't want to operate.
Lol, Emirates can pull out of any route they want to at any time, they don't need the excuse of the 5G issue.
Air India also has cancelled all the flights to USA.
At least, this is a good argument, comparing to the theory of 5G chip in vaccines.
Do we really need 5G? Maybe the current state is good enough.
Or how about these major companies simply upgrade their planes? 40 other countries have this why can't the US?
Totally agree... 4G itself is quite fast
I’m confused. Airlines have known 5G is coming for years. Keep on asking for delays since last year. If they can’t get their act together, then they should just ground airplanes and go into bankruptcy for doing nothing for the past few years and not updating/ change their equipment to avoid this fiasco. Better yet, jail C suites, I bet those airplanes will somehow have equipment changed (if they need to be) in a jiffy.
It’s not the airlines that change their equipment. Please enlighten everyone as you’re obviously an expert
Well, seems like you are enlightened, why don’t you tell everyone why is it that airlines know about 5G coming and did nothing? I’m waiting for your expertise answer.
Let’s be specific that it’s the C band that is being deployed by ATT and Verizon for 5G. The difference between France and US deployments around airports is power emitted by transmitter is 2.5 times higher in US and is transmitted horizontally vs downward tilted in France.
Additionally ATT and VZW are only planning on protecting the last 21s of flight vs 96s in Europe. From interference.
ATT and VZW poor spectrum planning...
Let’s be specific that it’s the C band that is being deployed by ATT and Verizon for 5G. The difference between France and US deployments around airports is power emitted by transmitter is 2.5 times higher in US and is transmitted horizontally vs downward tilted in France.
Additionally ATT and VZW are only planning on protecting the last 21s of flight vs 96s in Europe. From interference.
ATT and VZW poor spectrum planning for 5G has put them in a competitive bind so they really need to deploy the C Band spectrum to remain competitive with T Mobile which is why they are being so aggressive in their stance in this standoff
I think $$ need to be looked at. The Cell companies and their lobbies Were the ones that forced the spectrum sales aided by willing (bought and paid for) representatives and senators. Presidents really have very little to do with this. Other than to go along or not.
Many users of the auctioned C band had to replace equipment or find workarounds. Even the amateur radio community was kicked out.
Long haul international...
I think $$ need to be looked at. The Cell companies and their lobbies Were the ones that forced the spectrum sales aided by willing (bought and paid for) representatives and senators. Presidents really have very little to do with this. Other than to go along or not.
Many users of the auctioned C band had to replace equipment or find workarounds. Even the amateur radio community was kicked out.
Long haul international flights such as Emirates don’t have the advantage of delaying departures based on the local weather at the destination. It changes over 12-15 hours. They can’t afford to have the ability to land impacted and can’t reliability predict arrival conditions especially in the winter.
One article discussing the impacts to the 787 highlighted the integration of the systems and critically of the radar altimeter in shifting systems from approach to on ground mode.
Us cell companies want to use higher power, minimal freq separation and different antenna radiation patterns. All combine to cause potential issues.
I was once in a meeting where the politicians told the FAA they were just another special interest group.
Until the politicians put the good of the country ahead of contributions and partisan politics, we will always run into problems like this.
It all started with a spectrum bandwidth grab.
I thought this was a joke, but it's not.
What were the airlines and ATT/Verizon doing all this time? waiting for the problem to go away?
Head in sand... Blame it on COVID? Inflation? Biden? Trump?
The US really excels at procrastination. People really should be fired for not getting this sorted in advance.
Why did EK225 for today divert to St Petersburg, Russia, and the remaining leg is now cancelled. What did EK do with those pax? Keeping them in Russia or bringing them back to Dubai?
Those passengers were liquidated.
I have a domestic flight tomorrow on a 737-800 from EWR, and a 5 night hotel reservation I can still cancel tonight. Is this something to worry about for tomorrow that I should cancel the reservation and just hope that the hotel still has a reservation after I land, not to take any chances? I haven't heard much about this until now although I am reading up, but this has me worried.
You should be fine. That's an overreaction.
Why are JFK, LAX and IAD excluded? Does the sonly apply to flights INTO US or also flights OUT OF US?
Probably because the airlines make too much money on those routes. They might serve as mini-hubs to connect to other regions.
Y2K all over again... the sky is falling!
This is almost as stupid as those people who think that the coronavirus is transmitted via 5G
Sam ya mean it isnt???????????????????????????????????
This was the best explanation about 5G And commercial aircraft (from the Naked Capitalism blog).
**************
And as we had pointed out in our previous post, from a comment on AVWeb:
Unfortunately, as people who have been graced by the magic that is RF on a personal level, from the HAM down the street to the engineer in the lab testing the gear, have learned: just because you want to be transmitting...
This was the best explanation about 5G And commercial aircraft (from the Naked Capitalism blog).
**************
And as we had pointed out in our previous post, from a comment on AVWeb:
Unfortunately, as people who have been graced by the magic that is RF on a personal level, from the HAM down the street to the engineer in the lab testing the gear, have learned: just because you want to be transmitting on one set of frequencies doesn’t mean you aren’t also transmitting on a whole host of others. Furthermore, old equipment is not designed with constraints nobody had ever thought of at the time in mind.
Mass-produced, cheap RF devices are among the worst offenders, and with 5G base stations deployment being estimated in the millions by the time the rollout is “complete” to get good coverage, the only way for this huge infrastructure deployment to remain profitable for the carriers is for the equipment to be cheap and installed quickly. Cheap means likely QC issues, which mean a lot of unwanted emissions (including pop-fly spurious emissions) are likely. Installed quickly means people aren’t going to be going around doing field strength surveys to make sure the antennas aren’t aimed such that they’re bouncing or even emitting something straight up on the final approach to your local airport. While it isn’t likely to be a constant issue that renders your radar altimeter visibly wonky any time you fly over a 5G coverage area, it has been demonstrated by lab testing that there is a good probability that there will interference given the sheer number of interactions and, take this one seriously; the environment the avionics were designed to operate under – was definitely not a world covered in millions of kiloWatt range ERP transmitters broadcasting with massive bandwidth 24/7, 365.
I respect the Naked Capitalism blog quite a bit, but this was not a great comment.
Yes, cell phone providers will try to do this on the cheap with dodgy hardware. But airports aren't powerless. They can and likely will test around their premises. And if they find any cell towers that are emitting on their approach lanes or whatever, they can have the city yank the permits for those cell tower placements. Which means...
I respect the Naked Capitalism blog quite a bit, but this was not a great comment.
Yes, cell phone providers will try to do this on the cheap with dodgy hardware. But airports aren't powerless. They can and likely will test around their premises. And if they find any cell towers that are emitting on their approach lanes or whatever, they can have the city yank the permits for those cell tower placements. Which means ATT and VZN might try to place crappy, non-spec hardware in other areas where no one will check, but you can be sure that they will meet the specs around airports or risk getting their towers shut down.
The real problem is the spec. An airport can't get a cell tower shut down if it conforms to FCC regulations. Commenter Kiwi above explains some of the differences between France's and America's regulations. That's the real issue. And if the FCC wants, it's not hard to make special, more stringent rules for 5G around airports. They just haven't done it. Quite frankly, it wouldn't even be that expensive for cell phone providers to comply, given how miniscule the area around airports is compared to the rest of the country they need to cover. Even if they need to buy more expensive hardware or do more extensive testing, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of their 5G expenses.
As if we didn't have enough chaos and disorganization to begin with in this country. Not really a conspiracy guy but at some point you have to wonder if certain powers want to do their best to intentionally put the markets and economy in a tailspin. At best, this is just another example of unprecedented incompetence in government.
Remember when people complained about Transportation Sec Buttigieg got months of paid leave for their adoption. Well that might explain why Biden and Pete completely missed this. Then again should have been obvious when you appoint someone with no experience in the field.
What utter BS. First and most irrelevant, he took a few weeks that all new parents are entitled to take. And second and more relevant, the 5g roll out has been years in the making, far before Buttigieg ever came close to his current office.
"Yet a simpler and more serious lesson might also have emerged. This dust-up spilled over from the previous administration, which allowed crucial positions, including for some time the chief of the NTIA, to remain empty. (This month, a new chief was finally confirmed.) More generally, President Donald Trump’s White House displayed disregard for the intricacies of the inner, quieter workings of the executive branch. These intricacies, it turns out, matter: to keep the lights on,...
"Yet a simpler and more serious lesson might also have emerged. This dust-up spilled over from the previous administration, which allowed crucial positions, including for some time the chief of the NTIA, to remain empty. (This month, a new chief was finally confirmed.) More generally, President Donald Trump’s White House displayed disregard for the intricacies of the inner, quieter workings of the executive branch. These intricacies, it turns out, matter: to keep the lights on, to keep the planes flying and to keep our phones up to modern-day snuff." WaPo
Or perhaps it was this? Or maybe we stop blaming and fix the problem.
I don‘t get it – 5G has been operating as a standard in Germany for 2 years and there has been no ramifications for aviation whatsoever.
The US is using a different bandwidth than what is used in Europe. Several articles state the bandwidth being used in the US is close to the bandwidth used by aircraft altimeters. The closeness in bandwidths means they could possibly interfere with each other.
Different bandwith than in the US
Air India also announced the cancellation of US operations earlier today.
Add ANA and JAL to that list
So clearly this is an excuse or an attempt to get out of routes or contracts they currently have that are losing money so they are claiming 5G because their attorneys can argue it can get them out of a bad contract scot-free??
Folks used to do this with cellphone contracts anytime there was a change or some gov't fee was added. That's why all cellphone companies now do the pay you back feature instead of a "contract". So glad everyone puts their cell phones into airplane mode, couldn't imagine the mess if they didn't...
Meanwhile here in Europe, we've had fast 5G for several years and the planes are still in the air!
It's a different bandwidth in other countries than the US.
Actually,, I live in the EU and what you wrote is patently not true
Relieved I'm flying home (YVR) next month via YYZ so am not affected.
AA and UA are in the process of cancelling and/or grounding most of their 777 fleets but they're in the process of looking for places to put them. This is huge and the Federal Government have no one to blame but themselves for this mess.
So this is actually a real thing? I feel like i have laughed off all the 5G airlines talk considering the past couple years of 5G conspiracy, vaccination, covid and microchip conspiracies.
Don’t Look Up tomorrow!
Planes will be falling out of the sky due to 5G cellular!
/s
I think you should look up. If planes are falling out of the sky, I would try to avoid planes falling on my head.
A 777 is 250 feet long and is traveling about 120 MPH on approach, so I need to know, how fast do you run Eskimo? I can't figure out your life expectancy in this case without it.
The high yield markets will continue operating while we have a stupid excuse to cancel the rest. What a joke.
I think you'll find that those 3 markets which are operating are flown by A380's...which is a fleet type that isn't impacted. So no, its not a joke, its just a matter of which aircraft have been given approval/waivers.
Wrong, IAD is 77W
IAD has both 380 and 777. Perhaps only keeping the 380 flights.
This could be huge for the a380, imagine if only a select number of airports are approved for international use and everything reverts back to hub and spoke! Im sure Airbus has a contingency ready to get Toulouse to fire back up production if something like this actually happens.