Over the past year or so, we’ve seen the opening of four Delta One Lounges, which are exceptional, among the best lounges you’ll find in the United States. While these lounges are amazing in terms of design, food, drinks, and service, unfortunately crowding continues to be a major issue, as flagged by JonNYC.
In this post:
Delta One Lounge JFK serious crowding problems
The Delta One Lounge JFK is the biggest lounge in the Delta One Lounge network, at nearly 40,000 square feet, with a capacity for over 500 guests. It’s one of the biggest lounges operated by a US airline, but despite that, there still doesn’t seem to be enough space during some peak periods.
FlyerTalk member Cypriote tried to visit the lounge over the weekend, only to find quite a substantial line to get in. Even if one does get in, it’s not hard to imagine how uncomfortably crowded the lounge would be at capacity. I’m not sure that’s a lounge I’d want to spend much time in…
Admittedly this visit seemed to be on a Saturday afternoon in summer, which is just about the busiest possible time at this lounge. It seems that the lounge gets most crowded in the afternoons and early evenings, around 4-6PM, and then crowding isn’t as much of an issue later in the evening. Meanwhile in the mornings, this lounge is an oasis of calm.
With Delta’s new and improved lounge setup at JFK, the airline had touted how there would be no more lines to get into lounges, but clearly that’s not completely true.
In this case, I don’t really blame Delta for crowding
In Delta’s defense, I don’t think the airline is doing anything wrong here, or that this could be handled in a materially different way. This is a large facility, and ultimately Delta has greatly expanded its lounge capacity at the airport. Furthermore, most airlines have banked hubs, so it’s normal for lounges to get especially crowded over certain hours of the day.
Delta probably couldn’t get its hands on more lounge space, and Delta isn’t going to rework its schedule just to make the lounge experience better for passengers. So while this is unpleasant, I also think that in some ways, Delta One Lounges are a victim of their own success. People really love these lounges — for good reason — and I know many people arrive early to enjoy these lounges.
That creates a cycle of unpleasantness — people get excited about the lounge, that excitement causes them to spend more time in the lounge, and that causes the lounge to not be as pleasant.
Delta One Lounges have strict entry requirements, so I don’t think most of us are calling for entry requirements to be made more stringent. Heck, perhaps a change that will help with crowding is Delta’s eventual introduction of “basic” business class. However, I don’t think most of us are excited about that, and let’s not give them any ideas of “enhancements” that can be blamed on customer feedback.
So anyway, I think this is just a reality that guests will have to deal with over certain peak periods. If you’re visiting on a peak day in the late afternoon, expect you’ll have a very different Delta One Lounge JFK experience than if you were to visit in the morning.
When I was younger, I always remember my parents telling me how far they’d have to walk to school, etc., and that would blow my mind. When my kids grow up, I’ll tell them that back when I was younger, there were no lines to get into any airport lounges. Maybe that’ll blow their mind too.
Bottom line
The Delta One Lounge JFK is a beautiful facility. It’s huge, at nearly 40,000 square feet, and can accommodate over 500 people. However, even that isn’t big enough, and during some periods, there’s a line out the door.
While we often see lines out the door for Priority Pass and credit card lounges, it’s much less common for lounges targeted at international premium cabin flyers. This obviously just reflects the size of Delta’s JFK network during peak hours. This is the Delta One Lounge that most frequently has crowding issues, despite being around four times the size of the next biggest Delta One Lounge location.
What do you make of these Delta One Lounge JFK crowding issues?
When I was younger, I always remember my parents telling me how far they’d have to walk to school, etc., and that would blow my mind. When my kids grow up, I’ll tell them that we completed college without chatgpt Maybe that’ll blow their mind too....eeeeh
Obviously, Delta has the actual data to inform their capacity management and what trends drive overcrowding vs. manageable volume.
Certainly a bad look when these photos get posted but if it becomes a consistent, chronic issue, they have levers they can pull to manage capacity in terms of time limits, limits on partner lounge usage (as they already do in Boston given size constraints there), limits on time before the flight departure, etc. They have...
Obviously, Delta has the actual data to inform their capacity management and what trends drive overcrowding vs. manageable volume.
Certainly a bad look when these photos get posted but if it becomes a consistent, chronic issue, they have levers they can pull to manage capacity in terms of time limits, limits on partner lounge usage (as they already do in Boston given size constraints there), limits on time before the flight departure, etc. They have certainly learned plenty from the Sky Club access issues and you also can't act too quickly based on a few aberrant days if it's not consistent.
Simple solution. Do what AC does. No award tickets. No upgrades.
This is where you need to introduce a long haul First Class or a studio suite with guaranteed lounge access to a special room/area in the D1 lounge.
Or we r going to see the introduction of Basic D1 soon which wouldn’t include lounge access :/
I can't imagine why anyone needed to write yet another article about a queue to get into a lounge.
It’s a noteworthy, consistent problem with a so-called “premium” airline that can’t get its sh!t together
except multiple people say they have not had difficulty getting into the Delta One lounge at JFK.
Lots of social media exist to highlight anecdotes. The US airlines carry almost 1 billion passengers per year and yet some sites feature endless stories about bad passenger behavior such that you would never know that 99.9% of passengers function just fine
One solution they could possibly use is the one they've already used at BOS where they don't have as much space: Limit access for partner airlines. That said, I hope they don't do that, as I'm planning to fly VS out of JFK next week. :)
Well if you’re using BOS as the example then you have nothing to worry about flying VS. The only passengers flying Business not allowed in the BOS Delta One lounge are those on AF & KL. Business class passengers on VS, KE and LA are all admitted. Funny that LA isn’t even in SkyTeam and their passengers get treated better @ BOS than DL’s closest partners AF & KL.
I disagree. They could control the lines, unless they want to purposely have a line because it is part of the experience. They could have measures such as resonable time limits, for example. Consider as you said with the limited entry requirements, many people expect to get in given how much their ticket costs, etc, and the Delta One lounge is at least for now part of that experience they are hoping to have. They...
I disagree. They could control the lines, unless they want to purposely have a line because it is part of the experience. They could have measures such as resonable time limits, for example. Consider as you said with the limited entry requirements, many people expect to get in given how much their ticket costs, etc, and the Delta One lounge is at least for now part of that experience they are hoping to have. They could also limit it to international business class which costs a lot more than domestic anyway.
I'm wondering how full the VS Clubhouse is at those times. If there are lines at D1 and VS isn't slammed, I would be strongly inclined (in DL's shoes) to work out a cross-honor deal.
That being said, the restaurant went from "quiet" a bit after noon to "slammed" around 2PM. With that in mind, I'm wondering about the interaction of inbound and outbound flight banks since it is quite possible to imagine an hour or two of "wave overlap".
multiple people say this has simply not happened on any more than a very brief basis - WHICH ALSO HAPPENS at other lounges for other airlines and in other locations.
And DL's flights to Europe start leaving around 4 pm and the last arrivals come in the early evening so it is very possible that there could be overlap for multiple hours in the afternoon. and DL's JV partners that have access to the D1...
multiple people say this has simply not happened on any more than a very brief basis - WHICH ALSO HAPPENS at other lounges for other airlines and in other locations.
And DL's flights to Europe start leaving around 4 pm and the last arrivals come in the early evening so it is very possible that there could be overlap for multiple hours in the afternoon. and DL's JV partners that have access to the D1 schedule cover even more of the schedule.
No lounge, no airport, can be built to handle 105% of any potential future peaks of the schedule.
and, again, the JFK Delta One lounge is one of, if not THE largest airport lounge in the US
So, Tom, you're saying that Delta is no better than anyone else here. Got it!
in terms of crowding, DL is no more exempt from the same problems that other airlines have
as a result of the significant shifts in demand from EWR to LGA and JFK, it might be worse than in other locations - but the JFK D1 lounge is barely 1 year old so there isn't much of a baseline.
crowding at JFK SkyClubs is way down - but that doesn't make news
You love to say all this as fact but Delta has not added more D1 seats to their aircraft or more D1 eligible flights to their summer schedule in this fake timeline you're creating from EWR Announcements.
You also have no idea if JFK SkyClub crowding is down. Ironically, you assume that because you haven't seen social media posts about crowding there anymore, the very medium you scream about meaning nothing now.
you need help.
I was there for the first time a few weeks ago.
Absolutely more important than the lounge is that dedicated check-in line and security.
But when I got to the lounge, it was so crowded. I just walked straight out and went and sat somewhere in the terminal. It was far more peaceful than a massively overcrowded lounge.
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded"
--Yogi Berra or the new Delta tagline for clubs
We were mistreated recently at the JFK Delta Skyclub. I can not elaborate because there might be litigation. I will note that there was no manager available, just people protecting their friends and pretending to be a manager.
I now wonder if the management duties are shared with one person being responsible for both lounges.
Don't forget to play the antisemitic card. Works better in NY.
"I can not elaborate because there might be litigation"
LOL, I'm sure Delta's shaking in its boots, over this one.
Kohanim Dan had strike into the heart of LH AA UA in the past.
They have power to hold funding hostage and censor free speech in universities.
Don't underestimate their powers to divide people apart like the Red Sea.
Be afraid Delta, be afraid.
It would be interesting to know that out of the many people in that line how many had access to the Delta One lounge. I find it so commonplace these days to find lines at the entrance to lounges to find the people in front of me are arguing about their entrance entitlement and eventually give up and turn around and leave.
Maybe it would help if they proactively had staff 'line combing' to ensure that those in the line have access to the DL1 lounge.
Perhaps, but a poster below noted this is the line coming directly from D1 check in so it stands to reason they have access. If they don't, "access" confusion isn't an issue with UA and AA clubs and should be somewhat easily remedied in short order.
Delta's issue with club space in T4 is an interesting one. AA owns T8. Delta does not own T4 and it's an issue for various spaces DL wants in the terminal.
DL boards 2.5X more passengers at JFK than AA. Terminal ownership has nothing to do with it.
that has nothing to do with the ability to do what you want with your own terminal. Delta does not have that option, AA does.
And all international OneWorld (aside from AT) uses the T8 lounges so spare me your tears with regard to international business traffic at T8 that uses a business class lounge.
Go find your hole and crawl in. Your obsession with this article is beyond tragic.
Tim on one hand you said terminal ownership has nothing to do with it.
On the other hand you blame UA for runway constructions?
You're doing it again.
you are confused. or arguing. again.
Nowhere did I say that UA was to blame for runway construction.
I said that the Port Authority notified all EWR airlines months in advance of the runway rebuilding project and yet it took the FAA stepping in AFTER the runway rebuild started and delays skyrocketed for UA to start cancelling enough flights to work w/ one major runway OTS.
and there is ZERO evidence that terminal ownership has...
you are confused. or arguing. again.
Nowhere did I say that UA was to blame for runway construction.
I said that the Port Authority notified all EWR airlines months in advance of the runway rebuilding project and yet it took the FAA stepping in AFTER the runway rebuild started and delays skyrocketed for UA to start cancelling enough flights to work w/ one major runway OTS.
and there is ZERO evidence that terminal ownership has anything to do with crowding or not.
DL managed to get the largest lounge space at JFK and has far more lounge capacity at LGA and JFK than any other airline.
The success of DL's services including its transcon flights is why there are even momentary amounts of congestion - and based on what other people say here, it is just momentary
Q: "Nowhere did I say that UA was to blame for runway construction."
A: "runway rebuild at EWR was horribly mishandled by United"
On both posts you blame UA for not canceling flights due to runway construction.
Yet UA not owing any terminal or runways, you're blaming UA for it's problems. You're just contradicting your "ZERO evidence"
yes... you are arguing.
You know full well that the Port Authority manages the construction and their clients, the airlines, manage the schedules.
United horribly mismanaged the scheduling process leading up to and during the runway reconstruction.
"and there is ZERO evidence that terminal ownership has anything to do with crowding or not."
Actually, it does. Delta has to compete against other carriers in T4 and negotiate with the owner of the terminal in T4 for more space, regardless of need. American does not. They own all of T8. They do what they choose and what makes sense for their customers -- hence why they have 4 separate layers of distinct club...
"and there is ZERO evidence that terminal ownership has anything to do with crowding or not."
Actually, it does. Delta has to compete against other carriers in T4 and negotiate with the owner of the terminal in T4 for more space, regardless of need. American does not. They own all of T8. They do what they choose and what makes sense for their customers -- hence why they have 4 separate layers of distinct club entry levels at JFK T8 vs Delta's 2 layers at T4.
Of course it isn't a silver bullet to line access, but it certainly allows AA (and their partners) the ability to decide for themselves the real estate they'll have at T8 vs Delta at T4.
It's honestly amazing for someone that spends so much of his life on aviation websites how ignorant you are about very very basic issues of aviation real estate.
no, Max, it doesn't matter.
T4 is the largest terminal at JFK. There are many lounges.
Nowhere have you presented evidence that DL has not been able to get the space it wants. You made something up and decided to self-proclaim yourself as an expert based on your own conclusions - which have no basis in reality.
You do realize that it is DL's hometown airport, ATL, which you think they monopolize and where the...
no, Max, it doesn't matter.
T4 is the largest terminal at JFK. There are many lounges.
Nowhere have you presented evidence that DL has not been able to get the space it wants. You made something up and decided to self-proclaim yourself as an expert based on your own conclusions - which have no basis in reality.
You do realize that it is DL's hometown airport, ATL, which you think they monopolize and where the entire metro area is bought off by DL, where they have had the most trouble finding space for a D1 lounge?
Tim....you are arguing.
"Nowhere have you presented evidence that DL has not been able to get the space it wants."
Any "for profit" (per Tim Dunn in many previous posts) would want to have full monopoly i.e. kick out all competitors.
T4 would have only SkyClubs and maybe a Centurion lounge if Delta had it it's own way. VS EK AI would all be converted to SkyClubs. Chase EY into Centurion.
Enough evidence?
you are confused again, to no surprise.
and making up your own theory and then calling it proof.
DL is happy to take on all competitors - and beat them.
Feel free to let us know the airports in which DL has bought out and eliminated competitors' lounges
even ATL
I'll let you and your mental issues entertain yourself, Tim.
You're a recognized idiot. No amount of reasoning help you realize that but your own posts prove it. You don't even reply with a mental understanding of what is replied to you.
You don't seem capable of the lowest level of analytical understanding.
Your conflation of various issues into your own weird mental sphere is unparalleled. And it's a little wonder you reply...
I'll let you and your mental issues entertain yourself, Tim.
You're a recognized idiot. No amount of reasoning help you realize that but your own posts prove it. You don't even reply with a mental understanding of what is replied to you.
You don't seem capable of the lowest level of analytical understanding.
Your conflation of various issues into your own weird mental sphere is unparalleled. And it's a little wonder you reply nearly instantly. You clearly have no job, no hobbies, and no interests aside from a world that revolves around a publicly traded company that fired you.
Get mental help. Get a Grip. Get a life.
as usual, your hypocrisy is on full display, Max.
You have posted multiple times and yet I am the one that is sitting around ready to pounce on any opportunity to post?
I am the idiot and yet all you have been asked to do is provide evidence that DL has kicked out a competitor from their lounges AND that DL has been unable to get enough space for the lounges it asked for at...
as usual, your hypocrisy is on full display, Max.
You have posted multiple times and yet I am the one that is sitting around ready to pounce on any opportunity to post?
I am the idiot and yet all you have been asked to do is provide evidence that DL has kicked out a competitor from their lounges AND that DL has been unable to get enough space for the lounges it asked for at JFK.
Neither are tall asks for someone that is convinced they are right.
But you can't do that so launch into attacks on someone that just asks you to back up what you say.
Get a brain. and the humility to admit that other people can outsmart and outdebate you - without much effort.
My post was about the difference between owning a property in its entirety vs renting a shared space with other major competitors.
In case your small brain missed the analogy, AA owns T8 and thus makes the decisions about space.
Delta has repeated instances of over crowding at all its lounges at JFK over years. Perhaps with the D1 lounge that is not a routine occurrence, but the actual fact is this: when...
My post was about the difference between owning a property in its entirety vs renting a shared space with other major competitors.
In case your small brain missed the analogy, AA owns T8 and thus makes the decisions about space.
Delta has repeated instances of over crowding at all its lounges at JFK over years. Perhaps with the D1 lounge that is not a routine occurrence, but the actual fact is this: when you're a renter in T4 and you share your terminal space, you don't control your own destiny to the degree that owning an entire terminal allows.
You love to argue so this incredibly simple concept seems to escape your brain. Instead, we're on an article (one in a running years-long series) of Delta having inadequate space in T4 at JFK. Yet you don't even have a simple grasp of how ownership varies vs renting space vs competitors.
And yes. You have been replying to me very quickly all day as well as to other users in your normal drunk-infused illogical fashion. I reply to you when I have time.
Grow up.
we get what your theory says.
The problem is that you provided ANY proof to substantiate that your theory actually is true in the real world.
Delta has had crowding issues at other airports too including DTW which DL completely controls.
The ownership of terminals has absolutely nothing to do with crowding or not.
DL has struggled to find space for a D1 lounge at ATL and yet you repeatedly argue about how DL buys...
we get what your theory says.
The problem is that you provided ANY proof to substantiate that your theory actually is true in the real world.
Delta has had crowding issues at other airports too including DTW which DL completely controls.
The ownership of terminals has absolutely nothing to do with crowding or not.
DL has struggled to find space for a D1 lounge at ATL and yet you repeatedly argue about how DL buys its way in every way in Atlanta. Clearly your "theory" has hit a roadblock at ATL.
The Delta One lounge at JFK is one of the largest airline lounges in the US and it is in the list of largest airline lounges worldwide.
DL clearly got the space it needed and asked for.
Quit trying to argue a point which you can't back up with evidence and is pretty easy to shred w/ real world examples.
"DL has struggled to find space for a D1 lounge at ATL and yet you repeatedly argue about how DL buys its way in every way in Atlanta. Clearly your "theory" has hit a roadblock at ATL."
You're right. Delta could build a D1 lounge tomorrow in ATL if they wanted. I don't question that. They choose not to because they have a captive market. Your little brain finds such unique ways of interpreting the...
"DL has struggled to find space for a D1 lounge at ATL and yet you repeatedly argue about how DL buys its way in every way in Atlanta. Clearly your "theory" has hit a roadblock at ATL."
You're right. Delta could build a D1 lounge tomorrow in ATL if they wanted. I don't question that. They choose not to because they have a captive market. Your little brain finds such unique ways of interpreting the obvious.
Per JFK, "DL clearly got the space it needed and asked for."
And you know that how? Were you involved in the Real Estate Negotiations? No. You were not and the simple obvious fact remains that Delta has repeated instances of over crowding documented over years at T4. In a space they rent and compete against other competitors that need/want lounges as well.
AA owns their terminal and does not have this issue.
But reality has no place in your mind.
You really need some mental help. You demand proof to understand a simple concept of ownership vs renting a space where you compete directly against competitors with limited space? Do you need me to explain to you why the sky appears blue too?
"AA owns their terminal and does not have this issue."
repeating your same statement 10,000 more times doesn't make it accurate. It just proves that you can't back it up with evidence.
ONE MORE TIME
Provide a shred of evidence that AA has been able to add more lounge space than DL at JFK.
You can't because DL has added more lounge space at JFK more times than AA has.
Your statement...
"AA owns their terminal and does not have this issue."
repeating your same statement 10,000 more times doesn't make it accurate. It just proves that you can't back it up with evidence.
ONE MORE TIME
Provide a shred of evidence that AA has been able to add more lounge space than DL at JFK.
You can't because DL has added more lounge space at JFK more times than AA has.
Your statement is factually wrong.
Just walk away and quit trying to defend a ridiculous and fictitious statement.
get some help from a professional, Tim.
It's pointless to say anything normal to you and you can't even notice how other commenters find your logic absurd.
Perhaps you also need help understanding why the Earth is not flat too?
Your obsession with this article is so strange. You argue with EVERYTHING. Even basic concepts of how owning your own terminal is different vs renting... Over what? To support a well documented crowding issue at Delta T4 clubs? Of course Delta has to settle for less than they want at a terminal with competition. Again. That's not an issue at T8 where...
Perhaps you also need help understanding why the Earth is not flat too?
Your obsession with this article is so strange. You argue with EVERYTHING. Even basic concepts of how owning your own terminal is different vs renting... Over what? To support a well documented crowding issue at Delta T4 clubs? Of course Delta has to settle for less than they want at a terminal with competition. Again. That's not an issue at T8 where AA owns the terminal.
Just go to bed. Or take your meds.
spare us the insults and just answer the question, Max, and back up your claim that ownership status has anything to do with the amount of lounge space and crowding.
1. DL operates one of the largest lounges in the US at Terminal 4. what exactly do you think they were denied?
2. provide evidence that DL or any airline has been denied or gained lounge space because of ownership status. The fact that...
spare us the insults and just answer the question, Max, and back up your claim that ownership status has anything to do with the amount of lounge space and crowding.
1. DL operates one of the largest lounges in the US at Terminal 4. what exactly do you think they were denied?
2. provide evidence that DL or any airline has been denied or gained lounge space because of ownership status. The fact that AA has less lounge space at T8 is hardly evidence to back up your claim.
3. Crowding has absolutely nothing to do with terminal ownership.
You opened your flapper and made a logically flawed and factually false statement.
quit arguing and insulting other people who point out your failures to you.
Just walk away, Max
Oh god! These endless fights had stopped for a while, even after TD was allowed back on the site.
Unfortunately yes. The comments section had become a pleasant place again, and the quality of the discussion increased exponentially during his ban. But now he’s back to doing TD stuff again, and it’s going downhill. He’s proven time and time again that he is incapable of having a rational and civlized discussion. Considering this is the last place where he still haven’t been permanently banned from, I really thought that the temporary ban would make...
Unfortunately yes. The comments section had become a pleasant place again, and the quality of the discussion increased exponentially during his ban. But now he’s back to doing TD stuff again, and it’s going downhill. He’s proven time and time again that he is incapable of having a rational and civlized discussion. Considering this is the last place where he still haven’t been permanently banned from, I really thought that the temporary ban would make him change. It hasn’t. So I only see to possibilities: either ban him definitely (which I don’t think should be done, as Ben is such a polite and good hearted guy) or everyone just make a commitment to start ignoring him. He will the write the most absurd things that only his mind can produce, but just ignore it. It’s not wise and healthy to try and engage in a discussion with someone who’s cleary got serious mental issues. It’s that simple: everyone, from now on, just ignore his nonsense.
Eduardo, I don't disagree with you. My issue is that when he is not called out for the absolute BS, there are casual readers that actually believe the nonsense that's said since he references data that often doesn't exist or extremely taken out of context. .
I know more than most that even engaging with Tim is like talking to a wall that has no ability to comprehend discussion points and demands "proof" for...
Eduardo, I don't disagree with you. My issue is that when he is not called out for the absolute BS, there are casual readers that actually believe the nonsense that's said since he references data that often doesn't exist or extremely taken out of context. .
I know more than most that even engaging with Tim is like talking to a wall that has no ability to comprehend discussion points and demands "proof" for absolute nonsense or accepted concepts. Even on this thread, he went off on a generic comment about who owns which terminal at JFK and how that impacts ability to get more real estate. There's nothing controversial about saying AA owns T8 and Delta does not own T4.
Hell, you can go back to his many fake usernames on airliners.net to see that his style of writing is just as erratic and illogical today as ever, perhaps worse now that this is one of his few remaining outlets.
This site was better when he was banned, in my opinion.
You got a pretty good point Max. A lot of people come to OMAAT for good reliable information, and whey they come across the completely delusional stuff that Tim’s mind produces, some people might take that for reliable data, and that sucks. But on the other hand, unfortunately, we can’t be the ones to “filter” the type of data that people consume. I mean, it would be great to have a disclaimer saying “warning: this...
You got a pretty good point Max. A lot of people come to OMAAT for good reliable information, and whey they come across the completely delusional stuff that Tim’s mind produces, some people might take that for reliable data, and that sucks. But on the other hand, unfortunately, we can’t be the ones to “filter” the type of data that people consume. I mean, it would be great to have a disclaimer saying “warning: this user is not mentally healthy and 99% of what he writes comes from that condition” on each post he writes, but that’s not up to us to do. Yes, it was much better and pleasant without him, but since I don’t think he will be banned for good, the best option would be to just ignore him. Trying to show him how completely out of touch with reality he is seems to trigger his condition, and then the endless back and forth starts. Just like you, I hate to see new readers read his lunatic posts without knowing about this mental health, but unfortunately that’s not much that can be done.
Good Points @Eduardo
Get professional help, Tim. Or just stop drinking. That will help too.
the only one that needs professional help that includes a basic education is you, Max.
You have yet to provide a shred of evidence to back up your ill-conceived statement that ownership status of a terminal has one iota of impact on the ability to add lounge space and thus crowding.
For the umpteenth time, tell us how many additions and expansions of lounge space has AA and DL done in their respective terminals at...
the only one that needs professional help that includes a basic education is you, Max.
You have yet to provide a shred of evidence to back up your ill-conceived statement that ownership status of a terminal has one iota of impact on the ability to add lounge space and thus crowding.
For the umpteenth time, tell us how many additions and expansions of lounge space has AA and DL done in their respective terminals at JFK?
there are lots of people that don't like the back and forth but the clue things are going downhill is when Max resorts to his childish name-calling and insults because he is caught in yet another logic and factual death loop.
"For the umpteenth time, tell us how many additions and expansions of lounge space has AA and DL done in their respective terminals at JFK?"
Tim, you can keep demanding proof for something that is not under discussion. But if you'd like to go ahead and count the delta club expansions vs the various Admirals club expansions, flagship lounges, Soho lounge, Chelsea Lounge, Greenwich Lounge, and the large extension to accommodate BA in T8, please...
"For the umpteenth time, tell us how many additions and expansions of lounge space has AA and DL done in their respective terminals at JFK?"
Tim, you can keep demanding proof for something that is not under discussion. But if you'd like to go ahead and count the delta club expansions vs the various Admirals club expansions, flagship lounges, Soho lounge, Chelsea Lounge, Greenwich Lounge, and the large extension to accommodate BA in T8, please be my guest.
Your erratic behavior and complete inability to understand the discussion only proves your own mental derangement.
The topic is whether owning a terminal gives more control for AA to decide what they want at their own terminal, T8 vs Delta in T4 -- Delta does not own it and competes for space with other carriers there like Virgin and Emirates lounges
Degree of control between ownership vs renting sure is a tough concept for you to understand.
I need to go document specific lounge building in the last 12 years for you to understand how real estate works? To be blunt, I'd imagine AA has built more club space vs Delta in those years given the redo/teardown of various admirals club around T8, the Flagship Lounge gone now, and the new AA/BA Joint lounges.
But that's not even the point and your usual attempt to deflect from a topic that you don't understand mentally so you attempt to demand "proof" to a side issue that you think is related but has nothing to do with simple ownership vs rental control at a terminal.
The attention this is getting is unfortunate. The Delta One lounge is an excellent lounge and does not regularly have a line, even at peak times. This sounds like it was a brief back up to get in at the peak lounge arrival time (4 pm - 6 pm) on the July 4th holiday weekend. A complete anomaly that was exacerbated by a likely well meaning but over-reaching lounge manager who was attempting to allocate...
The attention this is getting is unfortunate. The Delta One lounge is an excellent lounge and does not regularly have a line, even at peak times. This sounds like it was a brief back up to get in at the peak lounge arrival time (4 pm - 6 pm) on the July 4th holiday weekend. A complete anomaly that was exacerbated by a likely well meaning but over-reaching lounge manager who was attempting to allocate parties to seats in a way that was unnecessary and created a back up to enter the lounge.
I hope this doesn't generate over-reaction that leads Delta to cut access to a lounge that does not normally have a line that many passengers really enjoy.
the anomalies are what makes social media stories. There are no stories about the normal operation of anything. and there is no perspective about how unusual any anomaly is.
This is one of the largest airport lounges in the United States. Let's remember that the story for years was about the crowding at the SkyClubs at JFK and that is now virtually non-existent.
and let's keep in mind that the JFK D1 lounge is...
the anomalies are what makes social media stories. There are no stories about the normal operation of anything. and there is no perspective about how unusual any anomaly is.
This is one of the largest airport lounges in the United States. Let's remember that the story for years was about the crowding at the SkyClubs at JFK and that is now virtually non-existent.
and let's keep in mind that the JFK D1 lounge is just a year old. There is still very much a "honeymoon factor" as people that have been reading rave reviews are finally getting to experience it.
as for the transcon access comment made below, Delta clearly sees the value in extending access to its Delta One transcon customers and gets the revenue to justify it. The transcon markets are larger than any international market.
Delta should have limited access to passengers flying intercontinental business class only (like United does) and not let JFK-LAX/SFO premium passengers in. I'm sure at JFK that's a huge portion of the passengers contributing to the overcrowding problem. Give the domestic passengers access to the Sky Club instead.
I'm SFO based, and I've never waited in line more than 2 minutes to get into the Polaris Lounge. Even at peak times (early afternoon before...
Delta should have limited access to passengers flying intercontinental business class only (like United does) and not let JFK-LAX/SFO premium passengers in. I'm sure at JFK that's a huge portion of the passengers contributing to the overcrowding problem. Give the domestic passengers access to the Sky Club instead.
I'm SFO based, and I've never waited in line more than 2 minutes to get into the Polaris Lounge. Even at peak times (early afternoon before the bank of flights to Europe/Asia, or before the night bank to Asia/Oceania), I've never had a problem finding a seat. United's choice to exclude domestic business class passengers flying SFO-EWR from the Polaris Lounge no doubt keeps it from being overrun like the Delta One Lounge in JFK.
AA flagship has access to Greenwich.
UA’s J class is huge. SFO-EWR on 777s and 787s has 40-60 seats. D1 even on dated 767 only has 36 seats.
I wouldn’t say UA is doing a good job refusing transcon J customers, but rather doing a bad job not accepting them.
And UA’s Polaris @ SFO never wows me and the restaurant is too small.
This must have been earlier in the afternoon. We went in at 4:30 or so on July 5th. Crowded but no line to get in.
I totally blame Delta. They let partners in which is unnecessary when Virgin and Air France both have lounges. At most there are 700 people every day who fly Delta One and have access to the lounge. That is not a huge number. So, unless people are staying for 3-4-5 hours then 500 seats should be plenty.
True for Virign, but Air France's lounge and flights are in T1.
KLM can also use for their two flights that are timed with the D1 lounge's hours.
To be fair to Delta - that's not limited to just them. United does the same for the Polaris lounges.
By that "logic," what then would Delta customers have to cry about, as they have the option to go use the (very nice) Virgin and Air France lounges as well? It works both ways, in case you haven't thought it that far through.
Presumably, Delta did due diligence in having enough individual seats for peak evening departures. If the lounge is full either (a) they didn't or (b) allowing customers on select partners into the lounge is overcrowding it.
You can't blame 360s flying domestic first-class because most of those people are flying daytime flights. After 5 pm and especially on a weekend, it's all international business-class passengers.
The other possible explanation is Delta can't properly...
Presumably, Delta did due diligence in having enough individual seats for peak evening departures. If the lounge is full either (a) they didn't or (b) allowing customers on select partners into the lounge is overcrowding it.
You can't blame 360s flying domestic first-class because most of those people are flying daytime flights. After 5 pm and especially on a weekend, it's all international business-class passengers.
The other possible explanation is Delta can't properly monitor available lounge seat inventory. I was at LGA today. They had 25+ people in the normal line and zero people in the diamond/360 line. When I went up to the lounge, there were easily 50-60 empty seats. That's excluding seats where one customer was taking up two separate seats with their bags, coats, etc. or seats where one couple were taking up four separate seats with their bags, coats, etc.
I don't get this. I am JFK-based and fly through here frequently (most recently, on a Saturday, between 4 and 6 PM, three weeks ago).
I have never seen a line to get in. This day has to be an anomaly.
This is peak time, and the lounge is very busy. But, there are always seats, and most importantly, they are better staffed and equipped to deal with it than probably any other lounge I've...
I don't get this. I am JFK-based and fly through here frequently (most recently, on a Saturday, between 4 and 6 PM, three weeks ago).
I have never seen a line to get in. This day has to be an anomaly.
This is peak time, and the lounge is very busy. But, there are always seats, and most importantly, they are better staffed and equipped to deal with it than probably any other lounge I've been to, including the Soho lounge in T8, where I probably spend more time.
I would not be happy if there was a line, for sure, but I just don't think this is indicative of a bigger problem, like the T4 SkyClub lines of yesteryear. The wait to get through the "Delta One Security" with their single machine and mixing of non-precheck passengers is usually longer than the wait times people quoted for this day, and I frequently go to the Clear Precheck line instead.
Agree with this take.
I didn't realize you could go through regular pre-check (preferably the touchless ID version) rather than the dedicated security. Where's the entrance to the D1 lounge if you do that?
“Where's the entrance to the D1 lounge if you do that?”
It’s in the middle(ish) section of the terminal, airside, after you take the escalators down to the main level. One your’re admitted, you turn right and turn right again and take an elevator up to the lounge.
The line in the photo is from the mezzanine level.
I really don't care how great it is, imagine paying for business class to seeing a line like that to get into the lounge. That is unacceptable.
The best lounge in the world isn't worth a lick if you can't get in, or if it's incredibly unpleasant when you get in because it's incredibly overcrowded.
This is a big reason why priority pass, at least in the US, has lost a lot of value to me. Because it is fairly common to show up at a lounge only to discover that there is a wait list.
Last summer I flew...
The best lounge in the world isn't worth a lick if you can't get in, or if it's incredibly unpleasant when you get in because it's incredibly overcrowded.
This is a big reason why priority pass, at least in the US, has lost a lot of value to me. Because it is fairly common to show up at a lounge only to discover that there is a wait list.
Last summer I flew out of terminal 4 in JFK in the evening and basically every priority pass lounge in the terminal except the Air India lounge had a wait list.
All to say, I don't think that lounge access is the perk it used to be (whether you're getting it through airline elite status or through a credit card). Unfortunately for airlines and credit card companies, they've done such a good job of hyping lounge access that it's now become a useless perk in some cases.
How many lounges did you lick?
What does it taste like?
An ideal situation would probably be a setup like CX where you have lounges scattered throughout the terminal.
Unfortunately the size and layout of JFKs Terminal 4 makes that proposition a non-starter and that's not even including other carriers at the terminal.
Ben, ever seen a queue like this at an AA Flagship or UA Polaris? Can't recall ever seeing one so not sure why you're defending DL.
I’ve never had to wait to get in the AA Flagship Lounge in MIA. Sometimes there are 5-6 people in line to get in but it moves really quickly.
That lounge sucks, to be fair
The lounge is totally fine. Rather walk right into Flagship where I can relax, shower, have a decent snack and coffee than not have access to the nicer Delta One Lounge....I eat on the plane anyway.
This looks like the line for the Chase lounge and Amex Centurion, which are right next to each other. The entrance to Delta One is downstairs
No, there are entrances on both the upper and lower floor to the Delta One lounges.
The upstairs one is connected directly to the Delta One check-in and private security lane. This is a photo of exactly that.
meanwhile, United's CEO says they are discounting at EWR as has never been seen before
Deflect deflect deflect as usually lil Tim. Pathetic how you have no personal identify and it’s just wrapped up in a soulless, overhyped corporation.
and yet it is true. Scott Kirby's attempts at shaming the FAA resulted in a mass exodus of passengers from EWR as people feared massive delays and cancellations.
and DL gained a 6 share point advantage over UA in NYC according to the latest data from the Port Authority.
DL reports earnings this week and, while they are certain not to attribute their financial success to UA's share meltdown in NYC, certainly torqued yields to insane levels.
Have made dozens of EWR Polaris visits - never once waited in line. Maybe 5 min max at a regular UClub.
Meanwhile for DL waiting in endless lines just to get into a lounge is a feature, not a bug. Poor planning.
Don’t be a chump and run away and switch topics. But you’re a one note sycophant so you are incapable of it. Go look in the mirror and say hello to your only friend.
nobody is switching topics.
Ben is right that DL has some of the strictest requirements for Delta One access but they run a large banked operation and include transcon Delta One flights.
and a planned runway rebuild at EWR was horribly mishandled by United which has overscheduled their hub for decades. Kirby tried to shame the FAA which clapped back and slapped big cuts on EWR which will remain at least through Oct and the...
nobody is switching topics.
Ben is right that DL has some of the strictest requirements for Delta One access but they run a large banked operation and include transcon Delta One flights.
and a planned runway rebuild at EWR was horribly mishandled by United which has overscheduled their hub for decades. Kirby tried to shame the FAA which clapped back and slapped big cuts on EWR which will remain at least through Oct and the chances are high that EWR will never handle as many flights again as it handled for years as a United hub.
DL can't and won't build capacity to eliminate 100% of lines and yet there is no doubt that DL has benefitted and will benefit from the scare factor that has sent tens of thousands of high value passengers from EWR to AA and DL's LGA and JFK hubs.
and that is before United non-pilot employees "have a word" about their low pay and poor contract offers.
Wait Tim,
You're saying that United is building runways now?
Nope
That is the Port Authority’s job. United just had to schedule to available capacity. They didn’t and then tried to blame the FAA which backfired spectacularly. People were scared away from EWR.
Demand for Delta services has skyrocketed
UA didn’t mishandle the construction. They appropriately brought down flight levels. What wasn’t accounted for was multiple technology issues and widespread “trauma” leave that temporarily crippled the facility.
The “shaming” was pointing out deficiencies and the need for flight caps, agreed to by FAA and DOT.
So the short term pain of the few months will result in a long term gain, with a strong position in the most reliable NYC airport. UA...
UA didn’t mishandle the construction. They appropriately brought down flight levels. What wasn’t accounted for was multiple technology issues and widespread “trauma” leave that temporarily crippled the facility.
The “shaming” was pointing out deficiencies and the need for flight caps, agreed to by FAA and DOT.
So the short term pain of the few months will result in a long term gain, with a strong position in the most reliable NYC airport. UA finally got what they have wanted for many years. A flight cap limit long enjoyed by LGA and JFK.
Points made, I’m out. Brett Snyder and I will not argument loop with you.
don't hide behind CF to cover your falsehoods, Mark. CF speaks the truth which would love to see you do.
the reality is:
1. UA cut nowhere near enough of its flights for the closure of one of two parallel runways at EWR.
2. The FAA convened an emergency meeting to "invite" all airlines that serve EWR to cut much deeper during the construction period and until October, even after the runway...
don't hide behind CF to cover your falsehoods, Mark. CF speaks the truth which would love to see you do.
the reality is:
1. UA cut nowhere near enough of its flights for the closure of one of two parallel runways at EWR.
2. The FAA convened an emergency meeting to "invite" all airlines that serve EWR to cut much deeper during the construction period and until October, even after the runway is re-opened on weekdays
3. The technology failures by the FAA were indeed traumatic but they had little to do with delays. Predictable thunderstorms forced EWR into a one runway operation for days at a time.
4. The shaming was to blame the FAA for its mishandling of the shift in TRACON duties and to push for slot controls at EWR.
5. the FAA DID NOT grant slot controls; it imposed flight caps that were well below the schedules that UA published before the meltdown.
JFK and LGA are slot-controlled and DL, like B6, has not violated slot usage requirements - something both AA and UA have done.
6. While the FAA has not said YET what it will do beyond October, United, just like CO, has overscheduled EWR for years which is the reason for the chronic delays including for the summer 2023 United meltdown that spread across UA's network.
7. Even for recent months, the difference in EWR on-time vs. JFK and LGA is a couple percentage points.
EWR is simply not capable of being the only hub airport for NYC; DL's dual airport hub strategy serves more flights and more passengers AND ALSO has more lounge space than any other airline
The Delta d-One-ce.
This is about DL lounge waitlines. Please stay in topic. We all know your mental issues keep you from acting rationally, but are you really looking for another ban ?
Explaining why Delta One lounge JFK is so busy IS part of the topic.
There has been a seismic shift in demand from EWR to JFK and LGA.
Please prove this seismic shift on routes that would materially impact D1 (or Polaris) lounge access. Most of the incremental short terms cuts UA made were on routes that would have minimal impact on the number of Polaris eligible passengers.
just google "port authority ny nj airport traffic statistics" and see that int'l boardings are also down.
NYC will certainly come up in earnings calls which start w/ DL in 3 days.
If you do one click further you would see that the drop is nearly all coming from international routes that aren't Polaris eligible, such as mainly Canada, Caribbean and Mexico
Careful, Daniel. Tim doesn't know how to deal with Data (or even look at it) and usually resorts to cherry picked data to create a narrative that does not exist.
I suspect that the high frequency domestic flights on JFK to/from SFO/LAX contribute massively.
I believe JFK actually has more Delta One seats departing from it than ATL has.
JFK has much, much, much more wealth than Atlanta. And I've probably understated this.
Yeah, I just meant in terms of actual seats, there are more Delta One passengers than even the single largest hub in the world in ATL. I'm using it more as a reference point to showcase just how many Delta One customers there are at JFK.
The point about wealth is noted, but LA is similarly far wealthier than Atlanta, but ATL has noticeably more Delta One seats than at LAX.
Remember when there were talks months ago of a recession and hyper inflation? Those things don't effect folks with lounge access. Especially not Delta One lounge access.
There's a sucker born everyday.
For the 8 years of President Obama's presidency, a certain faction kept saying there would be a recession every year. For the 4 years of President Biden's administration, certain faction trumpeted a recession every year.
Do with those facts as you will.
>Those things don't effect folks with lounge access
I should certainly hope not. I don't think they effect anyone else, either, on a grander scale.
well, at least Eskimo won't have the monopoly on idiotic posts within a given thread, this time.
Recession cancelled?
The lines are not necessarily a result of crowding. That is the first conclusion that everyone jumps to, but it is equally possible that this is a processing issue. i. e. So many people show up at the door at the same time, they cannot get them into the lounge without a queue forming.
I actually think that processing is probably the real issue given the greatly expanded lounge footprint overall that Delta has at JFK compared to just a few years ago.
Not to mention that the more strict entrance requirements than a normal Sky Club almost certainly lead to more people trying to get in who aren’t eligible. That means not everyone in that line will ultimately get in and at least some of those denied will waste everyone’s time arguing with the entrance agents about their denial.
Obviously it’s still going to be crowded at that time, but I wouldn’t necessarily take that line to mean the lounge is at capacity.
America once again proving it is a third world country with a gucci belt. With some of the worst infrastructure anywhere in the G7.
I live in the United States now, but whenever I travel in this country, I'm amazed at how inefficient the space is designed.
Hotels have too much wasted space, and the same applies to airport lounges.
Look at Japan, most affordable hotels have a bed and a place to put your luggage only, and it makes a single or double room.
I bet I can fit 3 double rooms in the space...
I live in the United States now, but whenever I travel in this country, I'm amazed at how inefficient the space is designed.
Hotels have too much wasted space, and the same applies to airport lounges.
Look at Japan, most affordable hotels have a bed and a place to put your luggage only, and it makes a single or double room.
I bet I can fit 3 double rooms in the space of just one double room in the US.
Also, ANA lounge and JAL Sakura lounge have the seats arranged so efficiently. Most seats are caterd for solo travelers, and group travelers can fit in there, too.
Get rid of communal seating. Just arrange the seats like lounges at HND/NRT.
And any height above 8ft is obsolete. If the ceiling's more than 12ft, divide it into 2 stories, then the seat count almost doubles.
A dense space is a million times better than a long waiting line. If it's designed efficiently, the seat count can double or even more.
We found the real socialist who worship Bernie.
I hope you enjoy flying Ryanair and sleeping in a closet.
And you use airport lounges?
What a hypocrite. Waste of space, you can stand and wait in closet next to the gate.
Get rid of communal seating and sit on a lap of a perfect stanger.
And while your at it, why divide 12ft in half when you can do in a third. You...
We found the real socialist who worship Bernie.
I hope you enjoy flying Ryanair and sleeping in a closet.
And you use airport lounges?
What a hypocrite. Waste of space, you can stand and wait in closet next to the gate.
Get rid of communal seating and sit on a lap of a perfect stanger.
And while your at it, why divide 12ft in half when you can do in a third. You get triple seat count. Or 9 fold if you sit on a lap who is also on a lap.
And how did you not die from COVID-19 with your dense space?
Eskimo, what is wrong with you? Japan is anything but communist.
@Felix
It's actually you.
Socialist isn't same as communist.
Nor did I single out Japan.
The reason is how you entitlement gaijin hypocrits see Japan.
Japan works in its own way that would never work with self centered entitled Americans or Brits.
Why be so nasty? Are you that insecure? What if I said I hope your parents drop dead tomorrow? How would u feel?
I was there at almost the same time and took almost an identical picture. My total wait time to get in was about 20 minutes, but what was most frustrating was getting in the lounge and finding PLENTY of open seating. It was definitely busy, and it was definitely loud, but I started counting empty seats and stopped counting when I passed 50 in my head. Instead of letting groups in or individuals in and...
I was there at almost the same time and took almost an identical picture. My total wait time to get in was about 20 minutes, but what was most frustrating was getting in the lounge and finding PLENTY of open seating. It was definitely busy, and it was definitely loud, but I started counting empty seats and stopped counting when I passed 50 in my head. Instead of letting groups in or individuals in and letting them figure out where to sit, the manager took on the role of playing seating configuration manager. When he found a set of 2 he asked ONLY for couples traveling; when he found a table of 4 he asked only for a group of 4. This left many individuals, including myself, waiting to be allowed in even though there were many seats. Even the food area was very well managed and despite being busy never had a long line. This seems to be a case of overmanagement and not necessarily of true capacity contraints - at least on Saturday.
Agreed to an extent… 20 min is a lot but I’d rather wait 10 min to enter and not have to circle around endlessly looking for a table than it be like centurion where ‘capacity’ includes every single seat.
A waiting room or text when it’s your turn a la capital one would be nice though.
The most premium crowds!
Goes to the Chelsea lounge.
Uses building 145.
Or flies from TEB.
I've been to the Chelsea Lounge plenty of times and only once was there an entry processing line (with ample seating inside).
Hardly surprising, given the portfolio of flights with Delta One cabins that fly out of JFK and a Saturday afternoon in summer is peak demand time. When the US economy slides into a stagflation laden recession and with the dollar's value continuing to slide, the crowds will thin out.
Pretty shortsighted of Delta... how could they not build something big enough to support the current network?
Pretty capitalists of Delta.. how could they not build something small enough to support the current network and still sell overpriced airfares?
Maybe we'll reach the point where all airport lounges have a one-hour maximum visit time. Do you really need longer than that to experience and enjoy it?
Tell that to your wife trying to watch Netflix and chill and you're done before the recap is over.
Do you really need longer than that to experience and enjoy it?
One-hour maximum visit to "experience and enjoy it"?
I'm not visiting a lounge for some kind of experience or enjoyment. I'm visiting a lounge because I'm in the airport having to wait before my flight, and I want a comfortable place with amenities to wait because I'm in business class (i.e. Delta One). Like if I am waiting for a connecting flight, or if I've followed the airline's advice and turned up hours early to...
One-hour maximum visit to "experience and enjoy it"?
I'm not visiting a lounge for some kind of experience or enjoyment. I'm visiting a lounge because I'm in the airport having to wait before my flight, and I want a comfortable place with amenities to wait because I'm in business class (i.e. Delta One). Like if I am waiting for a connecting flight, or if I've followed the airline's advice and turned up hours early to an airport I am unfamiliar with but find that (luckliy) the check in and security was quicker than expected. So no, 'one-hour' maximums don't cut it.
Right? I don't even eat or drink very much in lounges. Just want a place to sit, maybe a coffee/water and wait. This is especially the case when there are delays or long layovers.
I once had an 8 hour connection time through JFK. Delays cut that back to 5 hours, but still. You expect me to pay for D1 then leave the lounge after an hour? And just how would the staff track you down when your hour is up? Wait! I know! They will put a tracking collar on everyone as they enter the lounge and when your time expires, it begins flashing so everyone knows you need to leave! Brilliant! (Do I really need to put the here?)
For Delta One JFK, you actually do need more than an hour if you want to experience the sit-down restaurant. When I was there, they recommended I block out at least 1 hr 20 min to enjoy the meal - and that didn’t include the time I spent waiting for a table.