Delta’s transatlantic route network is evolving in an interesting way. While the airline might be launching flights to Malta and Sardinia, it’s pulling out of a major business market, in which it’s seemingly unable to compete.
In this post:
Delta discontinuing flights to Geneva, Switzerland
Delta currently operates a summer seasonal flight between New York (JFK) and Geneva (GVA), which is the carrier’s only service to the city. Unfortunately it appears that this is coming to an end.
The current seasonal service will operate through October 20, 2025, though the flight has now been pulled from the schedule for next summer, as noted by @IshrionA. That means that based on current schedule filings, the airline will no longer fly to the airport at all.
The 3,863-mile seasonal flight is currently operated with the following schedule, using a Boeing 767-400ER:
DL100 New York to Geneva departing 8:50PM arriving 10:45AM (+1 day)
DL99 Geneva to New York departing 12:45PM arriving 3:30PM
Interestingly, Delta didn’t actually serve Geneva for many years, and only operated the route seasonally again starting in the summer of 2023. So the service will have lasted three summers, prior to being cut.
This latest route cut follows Delta’s recent decision to cancel its New York to Brussels (BRU) flight, instead choosing to shift the route to operating out of its Atlanta (ATL) mega hub.
Is Delta ending New York to Geneva service surprising?
Personally, I’m not surprised to see Delta pulling out of Geneva. I mean, the airline wasn’t actually really trying to compete in the market, given that the service has only been operated as a summer seasonal flight. You’d think that Geneva would be served as a year-round business route, rather than a summer seasonal route.
But of course this gets at a bigger issue — Delta really struggles in markets that are dominated by Lufthansa Group carriers, and for good reason. That’s not too surprising, as most of the hubs are business markets rather than leisure markets, and that makes it tougher to compete with the dominant carrier.
SWISS flies year-round between New York and Geneva, United flies year-round between Newark and Geneva, and of course Lufthansa Group carriers (plus United) have excellent connectivity between all points in the United States and Geneva. So no, I’m not surprised to see a summer seasonal route like this cut.
At the same time, it’s interesting to consider the bigger picture here. Delta is the largest airline in New York, and it likes to think of itself as the premium airline for business travelers. Nowadays airline route networks aren’t just about the profitability of each individual route, but they’re also about the overall portfolio of service you can offer, in an effort to generate credit card loyalty, secure corporate contracts, etc.
Last year we saw Delta axe its New York to Munich (MUC) route. Then we’ve just seen Delta cut its New York to Brussels route. Now we’re seeing the airline cut its New York to Geneva route. One would certainly assume that the days for the New York to Frankfurt (FRA) route are numbered as well, no?
As I said when the New York to Brussels route was cut, the way Delta positions itself at its New York hub continues to puzzle me. For example, it’s funny how despite Delta’s huge network there, the carrier chooses not to fly to Asia, even when it had the chance to.
In early 2024, the Department of Transportation (DOT) could award a US airline extra Tokyo Haneda (HND) slots, and airlines could make their proposals. You’d think that Delta would’ve expressed interest in New York to Tokyo, but it didn’t. Instead, American is flying the route (which… is something).
Bottom line
Delta will be cutting its seasonal New York to Geneva route, meaning the airline will no longer fly to this important city in Switzerland. In isolation, I wouldn’t think much of it, but it’s interesting to see Delta also cutting flights from New York to Munich and Brussels.
Despite its strong position in New York, Delta seemingly can’t compete in Lufthansa Group hubs. Then again, that’s not surprising when you’re serving what’s ostensibly a business market with a summer seasonal service. I’m just curious when the New York to Frankfurt flight gets cut…
What do you make of Delta cutting New York to Geneva flights?
I've always found strange that is a leisure route this was not also a winter route.
Many skiiers want to get to Geneva every winter from New York to go to the many easy access ski resorts from there. For example it's almost as quick to fly New York Geneva and spend the weekend skiing in Chamonix as it is to fly to Salt Lake City and ski in Utah. The overall cost can be cheaper as well.
Schedule files show that DL is starting JFK-Porto (OPO) on a daily basis next summer and also increasing DTW-DUB to daily service.
As much as some love to focus on the cuts, DL is clearly going to have a larger TATL network in 2026 than it had in 2025, not only serving more cities but strengthening its position in major markets, esp. where American tourists love to go.
It is also worth noting that...
Schedule files show that DL is starting JFK-Porto (OPO) on a daily basis next summer and also increasing DTW-DUB to daily service.
As much as some love to focus on the cuts, DL is clearly going to have a larger TATL network in 2026 than it had in 2025, not only serving more cities but strengthening its position in major markets, esp. where American tourists love to go.
It is also worth noting that DL's 767-300ER competes against UA's 757s and TAP's A321NEOs with the largest aircraft in the market and the only one with direct aisle access for every seat in business class.
OPO is certainly more promising than OLB or MLA. Progress, but it's just a matter of time.
Isn't the point that for network carriers, what's important is the ability to get people from one destination to another, rather than from a particular city to another non-stop? Unless you live in a huge city, you almost always have to stop - living in the UK but outside London, it doesn't matter hugely to me that BA and Virgin have non-stops from London to x number of cities. The majority of British Citizens (in...
Isn't the point that for network carriers, what's important is the ability to get people from one destination to another, rather than from a particular city to another non-stop? Unless you live in a huge city, you almost always have to stop - living in the UK but outside London, it doesn't matter hugely to me that BA and Virgin have non-stops from London to x number of cities. The majority of British Citizens (in fact, about 85%) don't live in London, so what matters is overall connectivity. Delta can presumably fly people from Rubbishville, LA to Brussels/Geneva/Frankfurt with one stop via AMS, CDG or wherever. That's no worse for most people that flying from Rubbishville to JFK to Brussels/Geneva/Frankfurt. If you're in NYC then it's one less non-stop choices, but for the vast majority of people they can still get you there one-stop and for them much more efficiently.
In addition to BRU and GVA, DL has also pulled off flights for JFK-LGW another market exit. After both BA, and B6 both left the market this year too. Leaving Norse as the only one on NYC-LGW now.
Given the list of carriers that once flew and now have exited that market, it should be clear that not every market is entered with the intention of serving long-term
Izz says, "In addition to BRU and GVA, DL has also pulled off flights for JFK-LGW another market exit. After both BA, and B6 both left the market this year too. Leaving Norse as the only one on NYC-LGW now."
Tim Dunn says, "Given the list of carriers that once flew and now have exited that market, it should be clear that not every market is entered with the intention of serving long-term"
When the...
Izz says, "In addition to BRU and GVA, DL has also pulled off flights for JFK-LGW another market exit. After both BA, and B6 both left the market this year too. Leaving Norse as the only one on NYC-LGW now."
Tim Dunn says, "Given the list of carriers that once flew and now have exited that market, it should be clear that not every market is entered with the intention of serving long-term"
When the route launched in 2023, Tim Dunn said the following:
-- "DL is clearly counting corporate/government/NGO revenue. Specifically because UA and LX have had a monopoly, DL can come in and price at levels lower than Star and still do well."
-- "As much as you want to argue otherwise, DL's ability to add new routes including in markets such as GVA is a direct result of the $2 billion cost advantage which DL has."
So what has changed?
That question was answered a long time ago. Please keep up.
You in a whole lot of other people still can’t answer the question as to how American and Delta couldn’t make multiple cities in deep South America work from New York, but United cannot.
Or why united can’t even manage to fly to San Santiago Chile on a year-round basis
The more you run around looking for the speck in someone else’s eye, I will highlight the log in yours
I never made any predictions about SCL like your erroneous pronouncements about DL's GVA service just two years ago much less BRU or LGW, but hello MLA & OLB at least a couple of times/week during next summer.
I don't care about what you did or didn't say.
I do care that you seem hellbent on finding the speck in someone else's eye and unable to admit the log in your own.
Why is UA unable to serve multiple cities in deep S. America from NYC but AA and can?
and why can't UA serve SCL on a year round a basis?
You WILL NOT waltz onto this or any site and pick at the speck in someone else's hide while pretending you have no log in your own.
Tim Dunn, "You WILL NOT waltz onto this or any site and pick at the speck in someone else's hide while pretending you have no log in your own."
Are you OK? It's OK that you were demonstrably and predictably incorrect about DL's ability to make JFK-GVA work along with BRU & LGW. Airlines have limited fleets and network opportunities. Some just more than others. It's just a matter of time.
I'm perfectly ok, thank you.
You, as usual along w/ the mental midgets are fixated with me instead of the subject.
DO you honestly think that DL launched a route knowing it would fail? I said then precisely the thinking that DL clearly had to have believed - a path toward success in a market that was dominated by the competition.
It is beyond laughable that you and others think I am married...
I'm perfectly ok, thank you.
You, as usual along w/ the mental midgets are fixated with me instead of the subject.
DO you honestly think that DL launched a route knowing it would fail? I said then precisely the thinking that DL clearly had to have believed - a path toward success in a market that was dominated by the competition.
It is beyond laughable that you and others think I am married to a company when it is you and your ilk that are incapable of admitting that well-run companies continually end some lines of business while adding others.
The reason why DL is at the top of the US industry in terms of profits is because they don't accumulate routes for the sake of ego but get remove and move routes in pursuit of the best profit. Delta does this route culling every year so it is not a surprise when it happens.
When you are a paid professional representing a specific airlines or a self-proclaimed avgeek, you don't understand those basic principles of business.
There are also reasons why UA cannot and will not ever be the best run airline including in finances because it isn't willing to make the tough cuts that need to be done. As hard as it is for you to accept, there are a whole lot of reasons why UA's profits trail DL's.
AA cuts routes regularly as has B6 - and those are just the 4 US TATL airlines.
DL's service at BRU is not ending - just moving to ATL; GVA appears to be ending completely along w/ LGW. When British Airways decides it is no longer worth flying JFK-LGW, then it really should surprise no one that DL will follow suit.
The bigger story of 2026 for the industry is not the loss of GVA from DL's route map but the fact that DL is starting LAX-HKG on top of UA and CX. Let's see where else DL decides it wants to fly across UA's vaunted sprawling route map vs. where UA wins against DL incursions.
Tim Dunn says, "I said then precisely the thinking that DL clearly had to have believed - a path toward success in a market that was dominated by the competition.
You said more than that, "-- "DL can come in and price at levels lower than Star and still do well."
-- "As much as you want to argue otherwise, DL's ability to add new routes including in markets such as GVA is a...
Tim Dunn says, "I said then precisely the thinking that DL clearly had to have believed - a path toward success in a market that was dominated by the competition.
You said more than that, "-- "DL can come in and price at levels lower than Star and still do well."
-- "As much as you want to argue otherwise, DL's ability to add new routes including in markets such as GVA is a direct result of the $2 billion cost advantage which DL has."
You were wrong. It's OK, and it's just a matter of time.
Tim’s wife must have inflated at least 5 Ed Bastian lifesize dolls from Tim’s personal stack in order to help Tim overcome this very entertaining meltdown over a simple route cancellation. Poor Mrs. Dunn …
poor you and about a dozen other people that are more fixated with me than on the topic.
and you wonder why I keep coming back.
As hard as it is for you to accept, I own you and a whole lot of other people.
There were 3 options for Geneva to New York; Swiss A330 to JFK, United 767 to EWR & Delta 767 to JFK. Having flown all 3, the quality is in that order. Swiss is a long way from great, and the business seats are not good especially on the night-time return, but it still beats United and absolutely demolished Delta. When this changes to a Swiss A350 route with 1-2-1 business class it will be...
There were 3 options for Geneva to New York; Swiss A330 to JFK, United 767 to EWR & Delta 767 to JFK. Having flown all 3, the quality is in that order. Swiss is a long way from great, and the business seats are not good especially on the night-time return, but it still beats United and absolutely demolished Delta. When this changes to a Swiss A350 route with 1-2-1 business class it will be all over for the US carriers.
And Geneva is not just about Geneva, the radius of people using that airport from Lyon to Bern and all the regional towns in between is huge and affluent.
you do realize that DL execs just said that their most profitable route on their entire system is JFK-LAX, a route that is almost entirely flown on 767s?
clearly, the 767 for DL is more than capable of generating premium revenue and profits.
@Tim Please focus. Sam is talking about the route to Geneva which is an international destination not a domestic route which you are attempting to use as some kind of indication about how great DL 767s are. Clearly, it is not that good on the New York to Geneva route which is why DL will not fly it next year and Sam agrees that this plane is not a good option to use TATL So, Delta was not commanding any premium revenue and profit on this route.
I am simply noting, accurately, that the 767 does compete against a number of other aircraft in a market that is way larger and more competitive than NYC-GVA and the 767 gets what it needs.
There is plenty to talk about with DL's inability to get a big enough piece of the GVA market but the 767 is not even in the top 10 reasons.
For me it is. I get a nosebleed everytime I fly TATL in those overdry tin cans. I do value a very good seat above good service or good food but I do factor in the environment around the seat. Unforunately that market is poorly served with old aircraft, and the 767 is the worst of the bunch.
While I agree with Sam's hopes for a A350 I think this route (along with the...
For me it is. I get a nosebleed everytime I fly TATL in those overdry tin cans. I do value a very good seat above good service or good food but I do factor in the environment around the seat. Unforunately that market is poorly served with old aircraft, and the 767 is the worst of the bunch.
While I agree with Sam's hopes for a A350 I think this route (along with the GVA-IAD rotation) will be the last to see it and the 330s are here to stay. The high yields mean using high-maintenance fuel inefficient aircraft works for UA and LX. That was precisely DL's mistake: they slapped whatever is good for domestic redeyes and prayed for the best. If they really wanted to capture MS, they should have come with a right-sized, cost efficient aircraft with competitive product. But they don't have this, so they can't do that.
So yeah those pharma execs and those UN customers keep accruing on Star * and never had a compelling case to switch boats.
to be clear, UA, not LX, operates IAD-GVA and they do it on a, wait, wait 767-300ER.
UA operates EWR-GVA on a 764.
LX operates JFK-GVA on an A330 at least today.
Don't give us the nonsense about not flying a 767 when you cite a route that IS operated by a 767 and UA has no firm deliveries for any A350s unless you can tell us mechanically what is different between DL...
to be clear, UA, not LX, operates IAD-GVA and they do it on a, wait, wait 767-300ER.
UA operates EWR-GVA on a 764.
LX operates JFK-GVA on an A330 at least today.
Don't give us the nonsense about not flying a 767 when you cite a route that IS operated by a 767 and UA has no firm deliveries for any A350s unless you can tell us mechanically what is different between DL and UA's 767s. If you get a nosebleed on a DL 767, you will get it on a UA 767 - and on most other aircraft that are not A350s or B787s.
DL and UA's 767s are of similar age.
Tim Dunn says, "UA, not LX, operates IAD-GVA and they do it on a, wait, wait 767-300ER."
A 763 with High-J Polaris Suites, Premium Plus and Econ Plus. Far nicer than the DL 763s and better suited for this premium market.
it's a 767.
If he gets nosebleeds on a 767, he will get it on a UA 767.
Polaris has nothing to do with nosebleeds or not.
As usual, you are incapable of critical thinking because you incessantly blab about stuff that you don't even think about.
Barbarella says, "For me it is. I get a nosebleed everytime I fly TATL in those overdry tin cans. I do value a very good seat above good service or good food but I do factor in the environment around the seat."
Tim Dunn says, "it's a 767. If he gets nosebleeds on a 767, he will get it on a UA 767. Polaris has nothing to do with nosebleeds or not. As usual, you...
Barbarella says, "For me it is. I get a nosebleed everytime I fly TATL in those overdry tin cans. I do value a very good seat above good service or good food but I do factor in the environment around the seat."
Tim Dunn says, "it's a 767. If he gets nosebleeds on a 767, he will get it on a UA 767. Polaris has nothing to do with nosebleeds or not. As usual, you are incapable of critical thinking"
Pure projection as with a bit of critical thinking or reading comprehension one would see the nosebleed was for TATL flying and he values a good seat such as a Polaris suite vice what's on the DL 767s from the 1990's? He should try the UA 787s with humidification for those nosebleeds though.
Are you OK? It's just a matter of time.
@Tim Dunn - what is your actual relationship to Delta? Genuinely asking because I don’t think it’s a fair retort to your points to say you were fired by Delta if that’s not true.
The complete irony in your question is the breathless dedication that a core group of people including the comment below mine that are absolutely consumed in the middle of the night with me.
I own them, they can't control themselves, and they can't admit that their dearly beloved has flaws and is anything less than perfect - even when they accuse me of doing the same.
The evidence speaks for itself.
The hypocrisy is...
The complete irony in your question is the breathless dedication that a core group of people including the comment below mine that are absolutely consumed in the middle of the night with me.
I own them, they can't control themselves, and they can't admit that their dearly beloved has flaws and is anything less than perfect - even when they accuse me of doing the same.
The evidence speaks for itself.
The hypocrisy is beyond stunning.
I am here for the entertainment solely.
Tim Dunn says, "I own them"
When the route launched, you said the following:
-- "DL is clearly counting corporate/government/NGO revenue. Specifically because UA and LX have had a monopoly, DL can come in and price at levels lower than Star and still do well."
-- "As much as you want to argue otherwise, DL's ability to add new routes including in markets such as GVA is a direct result of the $2 billion cost advantage which DL has."
Guess not.
Nice and complete dodge of the question, Tim.
Scooter, It's not saying anything Tim hasn't said himself on message boards over the years to say he's a former delta employee fired by Delta.
How do some people know this? Because Tim operated under numerous usernames on airliners.net before he was completely banned (IP address and all) from there a few years ago. Tim has fully admitted to these former usernames, as well. He...
Nice and complete dodge of the question, Tim.
Scooter, It's not saying anything Tim hasn't said himself on message boards over the years to say he's a former delta employee fired by Delta.
How do some people know this? Because Tim operated under numerous usernames on airliners.net before he was completely banned (IP address and all) from there a few years ago. Tim has fully admitted to these former usernames, as well. He was blatantly and rabidly pro delta that even current delta employees found him off putting. His end to employment at Delta was happily shared on that platform from Delta employees.
I will take that, Max, as proof that you, as usual, can't debate the actual facts - including using your favorite metric of ASMs (except when it tells the truth you don't want to see) - so attack the user.
and you still - as usual - can't explain why I would be DL's biggest internet advocate decades after I was supposedly fired.
You, as usual, aren't capable of putting together a logical thought.
I stood for facts then and still do.
Self-described "DL's biggest internet advocate"
There it is. Yikes.
I answered all of your ASM questions, Timothy. I'm not going to do your research for you. In every thing you stated as fact on South America, you were proved 100% wrong. I'm not going to do research for you to find new random unrelated things to say ad nauseam to make you seem knowledgeable. You are not and you've proven that in this comment section just blatantly lying about "facts" and being proven wrong....
I answered all of your ASM questions, Timothy. I'm not going to do your research for you. In every thing you stated as fact on South America, you were proved 100% wrong. I'm not going to do research for you to find new random unrelated things to say ad nauseam to make you seem knowledgeable. You are not and you've proven that in this comment section just blatantly lying about "facts" and being proven wrong. Of course I can find any number of random ways Delta is bigger to South America...
Is Delta the biggest carrier from Atlanta to South America? yes. they are. on every metric. Is delta the smallest of the US3 carriers to central and South america? Yes. They are. on every metric.
If you want to argue about nothing, find your own data that is real. Stop lying through your teeth. Your credibility is zero.
But thank you for finally admitting your own past. A loser fired by delta that has built his life around Delta.
Was he Tommy767 on airliners? That dude was a complete tool. Now there's Fox347 (or something like that) who's a carbon copy. I think Tim is still over there, playing a quieter role.
no idea about Tommy
his known ones were ATL100Million (something like that) and worldtraveller (or some spelling like that).
It wouldn't surprise anyone that he's back on a.net. He self admits trying to get back on this site after he was banned and had a long history of desperately trying to get back on airliners.net
If you read what he says on other forums, Tim constantly obsesses over what is written on...
no idea about Tommy
his known ones were ATL100Million (something like that) and worldtraveller (or some spelling like that).
It wouldn't surprise anyone that he's back on a.net. He self admits trying to get back on this site after he was banned and had a long history of desperately trying to get back on airliners.net
If you read what he says on other forums, Tim constantly obsesses over what is written on a.net and it's clear he still obsesses over getting back on it, but Fox347 strikes me as your usual young Delta analyst -- hears enough to know what to type, sort of, but not knowledgeable enough to know what to say except the usual delta garbage. Tim rarely uses data, but he's usually fairly identifiable by stating data that isn't real whatsoever but stating it dogmatically -- aka. Tim Dunn just flat out lies and hopes he isn't called out on it. Fox347 just seems like someone who drank all the kool aid and has never flown another airline in his life.
Thanks. I definitely remember worldtraveller.
Tim - that didn’t answer the question, so I’ll ask differently: have you ever been employed by Delta? I just don’t get the loyalty you show unless you have your retirement tied up in DAL or your current pay.
You should be asking why there are paid airline employees on any of these travel blog sites. The one above your comment certainly does not have a professional subscription to an airline data analysis tool because he paid for it out of his own pocket.
I should, but I’m not interested in that. I’m curious why you dogmatically defend Delta. @Ben, do you have any inside knowledge?
If I were DL management I would pay him to stay off social media.
@ Scooter -- I find it strange as well. If he was in fact employed by Delta at some point, it doesn't seem unreasonable for him to disclose that, given the extent to which he defends the airline. It actually seems relevant to the conversation.
Given that he's constantly accused of it but refuses to comment on it, it makes me believe that it must be true? If it isn't true, I assume he's gladly clarify so. Very odd.
My conspiracy theory that I have no evidence if is that it’s a burner account for Ed Bastian. But I’d love to know if he was employed by Delta, because that would mean he could add more to the historical decisions of the airline.
No, Ben, I’ve been accused of being fired by Delta. Why would I defend a company from which I have been fired?
Both things cannot be true, which means the sources of people who say things cannot be trusted.
And it still remains that there are people who are clearly industry insiders, who are defending other companies on here. Do you really want your site to be run over by a bunch of industry...
No, Ben, I’ve been accused of being fired by Delta. Why would I defend a company from which I have been fired?
Both things cannot be true, which means the sources of people who say things cannot be trusted.
And it still remains that there are people who are clearly industry insiders, who are defending other companies on here. Do you really want your site to be run over by a bunch of industry insiders who use high priced data systems that no individual has access to?
There is ample reason to be asking why there’s about a half dozen super dogmatic, united fan nuts, and that is just as relevant of a question as to whether I was fired or previously worked for or currently work for Delta
@ Tim Dunn -- Sorry, do you have an answer to the question I had, though? Have you ever worked for Delta? Or do you prefer not to answer? I don't think it's an unreasonable question for people to ask, in terms of how to view your responses. Nothing wrong if you used to work at Delta, but just curious.
I have a question for you, Ben.
When do you propose requiring confirmed identities for ANY of the people that comment on your site?
You won't because you know full well that you will lose your readers - certainly the ones that are here to comment.
You are free to think whatever you want but unless you require disclosure for ALL commenters, you shouldn't expect it from anyone.
And you STILL can't answer my...
I have a question for you, Ben.
When do you propose requiring confirmed identities for ANY of the people that comment on your site?
You won't because you know full well that you will lose your readers - certainly the ones that are here to comment.
You are free to think whatever you want but unless you require disclosure for ALL commenters, you shouldn't expect it from anyone.
And you STILL can't answer my question as to whether you want your comment section overrun by paid professional industry insiders? There isn't a single person that is outside of the industry that has access to or even knows how to use high-priced industry specific data sources.
and, think it through, Ben. What would I be gaining if I previously worked for Delta or any other airline? If I was fired as a few lowlifes claim, why would I post about Delta? And if I was not fired, then how can you trust what anyone says that makes that claim?
If I am retired or previously worked for any company, I get absolutely nothing by discussing Delta or any other airline.
You should be asking a fairly significant chunk of your readers if they have any current association with any airline and I can assure you they will all clam out.
Out of curiosity, who are the other airline insiders? I’m intrigued who in the industry comments here.
As expected, he didn’t answer.
Because I didn't stay up all night long to post, I am not answering?
To be clear, Eduardo, it certainly doesn't include you - or at least you don't have access to or know how to use any meaningful information.
Scooter,
the complete irony of this whole discussion is that I I am the one that is accused of having a Delta widget tattooed to by inner thighs but there are about a...
Because I didn't stay up all night long to post, I am not answering?
To be clear, Eduardo, it certainly doesn't include you - or at least you don't have access to or know how to use any meaningful information.
Scooter,
the complete irony of this whole discussion is that I I am the one that is accused of having a Delta widget tattooed to by inner thighs but there are about a half dozen people who incessantly defend UA and tell us how badly DL does in comparison with UA when any rational person can see that actual facts do not support their claims.
UA is simply not as well as run of a business or an airline and yet none of those people are capable of admitting a single thing that UA falls short of in comparison to DL even when the facts are right there for everyone to see.
And then you have people that are more fixated on user names on the internet from a decades ago and have to use professional paid data sources to argue 2% topics while ignoring the 10% issues.
Yes. it is pretty easy to tell not just who the UA advocates are - they infect all manner of social media but also those that can't stand that I can accurately speak about the industry which is something they can't stand.
0-4 in responding to the question: who in this blog are you accusing of working for airlines? I want names listed - back your claim!
There really is nothing like a complete tim Dunn meltdown over a simple route cancel.
What a loser.
It really is hard to imagine dedicating your life and self worth to a public company that fired you… but he’s good for a laugh.
Bro, you've commented on this article 20 times, replying to him in real-time, have some self awareness.
You are the pot calling the kettle black.
you go girl.
Max has proven for decades that he can't stand that someone else can accurately talk about the airline industry, saying the truth he doesn't want to hear, so he attacks the user and uses professional paid data sources to argue 2% issues while ignoring 10% realities.
And the complete hypocrisy is that he along w/ other UA fan nuts argue that Cranky Flier says to just ignore me but Max and others...
you go girl.
Max has proven for decades that he can't stand that someone else can accurately talk about the airline industry, saying the truth he doesn't want to hear, so he attacks the user and uses professional paid data sources to argue 2% issues while ignoring 10% realities.
And the complete hypocrisy is that he along w/ other UA fan nuts argue that Cranky Flier says to just ignore me but Max and others are clearly lacking in the same self-control that Brett possesses. Max and others are simply incapable of letting someone else say what they say and walking away - and yet they cite CF for doing what they are clearly unable and unwilling to do.
Max hypocrisy indeed.
Your 'Julie' adds nothing to the conversation. MaxPower brings data and facts to support his opinions. You could learn much from him.
The #1 carrier at GVA is the SBB (Swiss railways) followed by Easyjet and Swiss airlines. Any remaining Delta staff at GVA will be able to make their way home to the US via the spectacular 2 hr train ride to Zurich.
Just the latest premium market where Delta can’t compete…
you missed that GVA is not either a premium or large market. plenty of other people said it so it is hardly my opinion.
You’re so full of it. Brussels and Geneva are both premium destinations full of governmental, diplomatic, and business traffic. Smaller markets yes, but ones that attract premium passengers. Clearly Delta’s ratty old 767s can’t compete in three types of markets.
Umm.. you should see the average fares to Geneva... I've seen fewer that are higher on the North Atlantic. They're absolutely premium...
you have no clue about the difference between published and flown fares, do you?
as I said about 100 posts ago, BRU and GVA are huge NGO/pseudo-government markets that have corporate contracts that book in much larger blocks than just about any corporation.
BRU and GVA are Star hubs that are in smaller markets than most other Euro/US carrier JV hubs and certainly smaller than DL hubs and Florida where UA in many cases is...
you have no clue about the difference between published and flown fares, do you?
as I said about 100 posts ago, BRU and GVA are huge NGO/pseudo-government markets that have corporate contracts that book in much larger blocks than just about any corporation.
BRU and GVA are Star hubs that are in smaller markets than most other Euro/US carrier JV hubs and certainly smaller than DL hubs and Florida where UA in many cases is not even in the top 5 carriers.
and then we have the fact that there are market such as NYC-deep S. America where UA flies to precisely one airport where AA and DL manage to support service to multiple airports.
And I'm still waiting for someone to admit that UA can't even serve Santiago, Chile on a year round basis.
for those who haven't figured it out yet, UA is not the end-all and be-all to the global airline industry and a few people here simply cannot admit it.
The sooner they get off their high horses and realize that UA has some huge blind spots that are no different - and often smaller than what other airlines have, the sooner I will stop pointing them out every UA flaw.
Tim Dunn says, "you missed that GVA is not either a premium or large market. plenty of other people said it so it is hardly my opinion."
It is not big, but it is premium which is why UA uses the High-J 767s.
Income/person
GVA: $130,000
NYC: $51,000
I think Anthony may be correct in answering the question why DL chooses to fly from LAX and still does not fly nonstop from NYC to anywhere in Asia on its own metal.
As Anthony wrote earlier ‘but the one thing I do agree is puzzling as of now is the lack of NYC to Asia flights. Delta should be able to make a JFK to HND work, especially given strong US demand to...
I think Anthony may be correct in answering the question why DL chooses to fly from LAX and still does not fly nonstop from NYC to anywhere in Asia on its own metal.
As Anthony wrote earlier ‘but the one thing I do agree is puzzling as of now is the lack of NYC to Asia flights. Delta should be able to make a JFK to HND work, especially given strong US demand to Japan right now. My guess is that Delta wants to build out LAX as the premium gateway to Asia and sees it as less risky. Flyers in the Northeast (JFK and Boston) can easily connect on Delta One through LAX, while everyone else can connect through ATL/MSP/etc.’
https://www.flightsfrom.com/JFK/DL
Yes. Why would anyone choose Delta on purpose to fly nonstop from New York to Tokyo when given JL and NH or to Hong Kong when given CX as an alternative? But then again AA manages to fly from Haneda to JFK where DL has the largest presence. OMAAT finds it puzzling too as to why DL passed up on this opportunity.
Any flights to Asia on the east coast of the United States by DL is only from its mega hub at Atlanta.
https://simpleflying.com/up-to-17-hours-delta-air-lines-10-longest-routes/
https://onemileatatime.com/guides/longest-flights-in-the-world/
Lucky mentioned how great the economics now are with these new planes. For example, you have airlines like UA and MU that recently added some interesting flights. It seems that DL is being very conservative with its route planning and is quite unimaginative. So, they know if they can’t compete then those routes won’t get any seats.
your last argument is backwards.
DL's TPAC network is almost entirely flown on new generation aircraft; UA's is flown on a mixture of 777s and 787s.
DL is focused of profitability while UA if focused on mass transportation which is why UA makes a fraction of the money DL makes flying its TPAC and TATL networks.
AA doesn't make money flying the Atlantic and Pacific on a year round basis at all.
If the...
your last argument is backwards.
DL's TPAC network is almost entirely flown on new generation aircraft; UA's is flown on a mixture of 777s and 787s.
DL is focused of profitability while UA if focused on mass transportation which is why UA makes a fraction of the money DL makes flying its TPAC and TATL networks.
AA doesn't make money flying the Atlantic and Pacific on a year round basis at all.
If the metric is mass transportation, then DL doesn't intend to win because that is not what it was created to do.
DL is a for-profit company just like AA and UA and every US airline.
DL just understands its mission and achieves that goal better than any other US airline.
JFK-GVA is just not what gets DL to its goal.
AA and UA just don't have the **lls"* to walk away from routes that don't make money.
@Tim my last point about the latest aircraft was stating what OMAAT previously wrote in an article. With these latest improvements, DL still does not fly to the Asia-Pacific on its own metal from New York. And yeah like you said DL is for profit only so it seems like DL knows it cannot make a profit flying its own planes from NYC to Asia-Pacific at the moment. This is what is puzzling. NY is...
@Tim my last point about the latest aircraft was stating what OMAAT previously wrote in an article. With these latest improvements, DL still does not fly to the Asia-Pacific on its own metal from New York. And yeah like you said DL is for profit only so it seems like DL knows it cannot make a profit flying its own planes from NYC to Asia-Pacific at the moment. This is what is puzzling. NY is a hub for DL (the top airline at JFK) but they cannot make it work at certain destinations across the Pacific and the Atlantic. It may just be down to competition and economics.
I just did a round trip from MIA to JFK to GVA. The old 767 was very noisy; the food was subpar; but an accident the day of the return flight restricted my mobility and DELTA went all out to help me maneuver through the 3 airports and for this I am grateful!
Hard for an Airline (like Delta) to compete at an international airports dominated by another alliance. Like Star Alliance in Germany, Switzerland, and Belgium. And then OneWorld and Star at HND. Skyteam is France and now Scandinavia. FP programs and connection options matter.
Yes, but UA does well competing in SkyTeam and OneWorld hubs, so we can’t give too much of a pass to DL, especially considering flights from their JFK hub.
as other people have noted, DL's JV hubs are in larger markets.
We can't give UA a pass for its poor coverage of deep S. America from JFK.
AA and DL have managed to be able to serve cities in Argentina and Brazil that UA can't make work from NYC.
and, you still haven't answered my question. Is it really true that UA doesn't even serve Santiago, Chile on a year round...
as other people have noted, DL's JV hubs are in larger markets.
We can't give UA a pass for its poor coverage of deep S. America from JFK.
AA and DL have managed to be able to serve cities in Argentina and Brazil that UA can't make work from NYC.
and, you still haven't answered my question. Is it really true that UA doesn't even serve Santiago, Chile on a year round basis?
How is it that DL can serve two cities in E. Asia (Tokyo and Seoul) from each of ATL, DTW and MSP and a 3rd city (PVG) from DTW and yet AA can't fly to 2 cities in E. Asia from any airport outside of California?
the sooner you get off your high horse about how great UA is and accept the reality that other carriers really do beat UA's sorry backside in many ways, the more peaceful these forums will be.
Reading your comments about how you win every argument and how you send everyone with their bags packing really does make my head spin. It’s so contrary to what is clearly on display.
You throw out so many ideas without any supporting data. Others give you hard facts: destinations, ASMs, fleet size, etc, but you ignore them all.
You say size doesn’t matter as you say DL is bigger in NYC (only in...
Reading your comments about how you win every argument and how you send everyone with their bags packing really does make my head spin. It’s so contrary to what is clearly on display.
You throw out so many ideas without any supporting data. Others give you hard facts: destinations, ASMs, fleet size, etc, but you ignore them all.
You say size doesn’t matter as you say DL is bigger in NYC (only in number of flights, through inefficient split hub and lots of RJs). You tout DL’s service to BNE and AKL relative to UA, not even mentioning that UA is year round while DL is seasonal, and then criticize UA for UA running a seasonal flight to SCL.
You say UA isn’t big from NYC to South America, with no data. When data is provided to show UA is bigger than DL to South America, you move the goal posts.
UA gets more revenue than DL from running the airline, especially in NYC, where UA’s crown jewel in EWR reaps so many rewards.
The reason Chase is brought up is because that will be an easy fix to the equation when the new contract is negotiated. UA has created an innovative media network, Kinnective, to ensure a lucrative contact when it comes up.
With billions in extra credit card revenue, DL is still only even with UA. DL is falling behind UA in airline premium, as UA capitalizes on their hubs in economically powerful cities, along with a record breaking aircraft order.
30 additional 787s by the end of next year, putting them well over 100. All while UA takes hundreds of domestic narrowbodies to further grow revenue and passenger counts.
Meanwhile, DL is dropping international destinations from its premier east coast hub, running RJ-heavy operations there, opening an RJ-heavy focus city in AUS, and struggling to (unsuccessfully) keep up with AS in SEA.
DL’s network planning has become reactionary, adding FCO and BCN from SEA because AS did, adding LGW because B6 did, adding HKG because UA is already huge there.
Fortunately for DL, they have fortress hubs with no competition, not even cross-town airports, using politics to ensure their fortress hubs remain fortress hubs. They’ll always have those four hubs to subsidize the underperforming operations elsewhere.
Have I been sent packing? Are you ready to present some data, or will it just be more words that ignore the data presented elsewhere?
well, no, Mark,
UA trails DL by a pretty significant amount but you aren't capable of admitting that DL wins against UA every day and twice on Sunday.
No, you aren't smart enough to walk away and will continue to keep trotting out your feeble and cherrypicked arguments which will give me reason to come back tomorrow.
The sooner you can admit that UA not only doesn't win in every metric but actually trails...
well, no, Mark,
UA trails DL by a pretty significant amount but you aren't capable of admitting that DL wins against UA every day and twice on Sunday.
No, you aren't smart enough to walk away and will continue to keep trotting out your feeble and cherrypicked arguments which will give me reason to come back tomorrow.
The sooner you can admit that UA not only doesn't win in every metric but actually trails in a whole lot, the sooner we will return to a peaceful place here. but you aren't smart enough or humble enough to admit you are wrong.
I tried to read every comment before writing this, so excuse me if I missed something. When the Brussels route was dropped, the shouting was that it would be made for up by stronger service out of Atlanta. Crickets this time around. And, no comment that the Lufthansa Group can make Geneva work (presumably partly because of strong regional European connections), yet Delta can't make the same route work, even though they too have a...
I tried to read every comment before writing this, so excuse me if I missed something. When the Brussels route was dropped, the shouting was that it would be made for up by stronger service out of Atlanta. Crickets this time around. And, no comment that the Lufthansa Group can make Geneva work (presumably partly because of strong regional European connections), yet Delta can't make the same route work, even though they too have a strong connecting network in New York?
you probably missed the the corporate traffic is heavily skewed to the pharmaceutical industry which is concentrated in NJ, including w/ cargo, while Star has the EU/NGO contracts in both BRU and GVA locked up.
It is no different than the fact than how low UA ranks in so many US markets including its presence as the 6th largest airline in Florida. How is that a US airline got so fixated with Nuuk and...
you probably missed the the corporate traffic is heavily skewed to the pharmaceutical industry which is concentrated in NJ, including w/ cargo, while Star has the EU/NGO contracts in both BRU and GVA locked up.
It is no different than the fact than how low UA ranks in so many US markets including its presence as the 6th largest airline in Florida. How is that a US airline got so fixated with Nuuk and Mongolia that they failed to develop a presence in Florida comparable to their global size, let alone major markets like ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC?
"you probably missed the the corporate traffic is heavily skewed to the pharmaceutical industry which is concentrated in NJ, including w/ cargo, while Star has the EU/NGO contracts in both BRU and GVA locked up."
This was true when DL started this route in 2023, and as Ben noted you predicted great success. So what happened then?
Geneva has great food, and Museum of Reformation, among many other things. Great for us working poor folks, who don't go there for watches.
Off course, the Dunnder storms are hitting hard for this Delta article. That used to be the same at Cranky but he put an end to that.
Ben hasn't produced much content that is appealing for the masses for a while. we're playing catchup.
and I still participate on CF... he just writes fewer articles.
and he tapped other people on the shoulder too.
I believe his words were “just ignore Tim like I do”
and Ben's usual routine is to respond to a comment or two until you all come in to get the dander flying.
Different strokes for different folks.
CF and OMAAT serve different purposes and both do what they do well.
Luring your comments into any article is like fishing with dynamite, way too easy.
But you’re right Ben is great at getting you to march in to defend daddy delta’s honor
all I defend the truth... which is why I love to watch you bob and weave to avoid posting the real data that I have cited.
Lmao
The “real data that I have cited”?
Are you delusional?
I’ve proven wrong just about every assertion you’ve made in this comment section. Even directly answered your hopefully desperate question about “ASMs” in a hope you might have something with your shot in the dark.
Don’t be delusional. You’ve stated everything based on zero facts and now seem to think I need to do your research for you.
Get a...
Lmao
The “real data that I have cited”?
Are you delusional?
I’ve proven wrong just about every assertion you’ve made in this comment section. Even directly answered your hopefully desperate question about “ASMs” in a hope you might have something with your shot in the dark.
Don’t be delusional. You’ve stated everything based on zero facts and now seem to think I need to do your research for you.
Get a life you idiot. You’re wrong in just about every “fact” you stated today.
you mean "I rush to use my employer provided Cirium to argue on ,my employer's time against 2% differences while ignoring the double digit disadvantages that UA has which you don't want to acknowledge."
We're still looking for the comparison of ATL and IAH and JFK vs. EWR capacity on a year round basis for the big 3 for flights, capacity, and your very favorite ASMs.
It is clear that the reason you won't...
you mean "I rush to use my employer provided Cirium to argue on ,my employer's time against 2% differences while ignoring the double digit disadvantages that UA has which you don't want to acknowledge."
We're still looking for the comparison of ATL and IAH and JFK vs. EWR capacity on a year round basis for the big 3 for flights, capacity, and your very favorite ASMs.
It is clear that the reason you won't answer the question is because you know full well that the arguments you make in one case don't hold sewage in another case.
You seem to get a chubby that I work for these archivals of yours
Sorry to disappoint, pal. Is your “financial” article writing this bad that you can’t even afford basic data ?
You are truly the dumbest person. You get called out for being wrong on literally every data-based thing you’ve said today and now seem to view it as my obligation to research for you. And it’s always some new random misdirect...
You seem to get a chubby that I work for these archivals of yours
Sorry to disappoint, pal. Is your “financial” article writing this bad that you can’t even afford basic data ?
You are truly the dumbest person. You get called out for being wrong on literally every data-based thing you’ve said today and now seem to view it as my obligation to research for you. And it’s always some new random misdirect by you lol.
You realize how transparently idiotic you look, right? No one is fooled by your complete lying about real data or your desire to move the goal posts for something else you also have no idea what the data says.
You’re beyond an idiot and it’s little wonder delta fired you.
Geneva as a route is rarely marketed correctly on the leisure side. It's not about actually going to Geneva, but Geneva is the gateway to the French Alps / Lake Annecy. It was nice that Delta flew the route because they obviously could never make it really work and you could therefore get a decent use of skymiles on the route. Yes they flew a 767 but they really are not bad in economy (although...
Geneva as a route is rarely marketed correctly on the leisure side. It's not about actually going to Geneva, but Geneva is the gateway to the French Alps / Lake Annecy. It was nice that Delta flew the route because they obviously could never make it really work and you could therefore get a decent use of skymiles on the route. Yes they flew a 767 but they really are not bad in economy (although I had terrible catering on the route ex-JFK). Feels like one of those bubble routes that could easily be brought back in a few years.
these comment threads are so funny to me. Lucky, great job building engagement. Looking forward to seeing the talking points over and over and over in the next few years as Alaska builds out Seattle long-haul
People are wrong to focus on GVA traffic alone. This is a pattern which is repeated across Europe and made all the more obvious by the routes to MLA etc. The US3 airlines will only fly to a non-hub destination if there's a lot of demand from American points of sale.
Does anyone seriously think that Bucharest, Lyon (with populations of 2.3m apiece), Birmingham (more like 3m), NRW (one of the richest regions on...
People are wrong to focus on GVA traffic alone. This is a pattern which is repeated across Europe and made all the more obvious by the routes to MLA etc. The US3 airlines will only fly to a non-hub destination if there's a lot of demand from American points of sale.
Does anyone seriously think that Bucharest, Lyon (with populations of 2.3m apiece), Birmingham (more like 3m), NRW (one of the richest regions on the continent), and Warsaw (the sixth most populous city in the EU) really don't generate sufficient demand for a daily route to New York with connections across N. America? All those important destinations have ZERO flights from the US3, why would GVA be any different?
This is very good point. This is why UA flies to so many SkyTeam hubs like LHR/CDG/AMS. Those are high demand from the US side.
The most popular European cities by US visitors are LHR, CDG, FCO, AMS, BCN, DUB, ATH, VCE, MAD, and BER. (could vary a little bit tbh, but pulled from 2023).
I would say that GVA is not particularly high demand from the US POS, nor are BRU and many...
This is very good point. This is why UA flies to so many SkyTeam hubs like LHR/CDG/AMS. Those are high demand from the US side.
The most popular European cities by US visitors are LHR, CDG, FCO, AMS, BCN, DUB, ATH, VCE, MAD, and BER. (could vary a little bit tbh, but pulled from 2023).
I would say that GVA is not particularly high demand from the US POS, nor are BRU and many other *A hubs like FRA/MUC, etc. VIE and ZRH, while popular, are still tier 2 tourist destinations compared to CDG and LH group really underutilizes Austrian Airlines as well.
Furthermore, LH group hub geography means that it often requires inefficient backtracking to get to those top destinations, requiring UA to fly more of its own metal.
In contrast, Italy really punches above its weight and is very popular with Americans, the main thing holding it back is geopgraphy and further distance.
yolo says, "LH group hub geography means that it often requires inefficient backtracking to get to those top destinations, requiring UA to fly more of its own metal."
An important point along with EWR and IAD being connecting hubs whereas JFK is far more dependent on O&D traffic alone.
CF made precisely yolo's point, quoting Kirby for the reason for UA's narrowbody ops to western Europe smaller destinations.
LH Group hubs are more easterly than IAG and AF/KL hubs.
UA compensates for LH Group hubs with more points on its own metal, including narrowbodies, to western Europe cities
For once I agree.
A quick check on random dates next week show DL asking for an eye popping €12000 while LX&UA are asking for about €6000 rtn in business class. If that's DL's usual pricing, then i can clearly see why they are failing because who in their right minds will pay that?!
Just watching the nerd fighting here is entertaining LOL
and yet they keep coming back to get slaughtered when all they have to do is accept that 1. DL really does do some things, including the bottom line, better than any other US airline and 2. UA really is not as good as their fan brats think they are.
the disconnect between reality and your brain is something to watch, Ms Dunn
It's something I would know about since my brain is just as fried!
Yes, you’re the one without facts who deflects all data points and arguments sent your way, ignoring well-documented points about DL route cuts, station closures, revenue and profit deficiencies in NYC and systemwide, from airline operations, relative to UA. You’re the one who doesn’t answer questions, because the answers would contradict your points.
Speaking of, your own contradictions are presented to you.
Yet you’re winning. lol
and yet you are the one that has to carve out passenger revenue (which is still less per ASM) because you can't accept that AA, DL and UA all use the same total revenue model and UA has failed to develop non-transportation revenue; UA's lower passenger unit revenue and lower NTR is why UA trails in total revenue and profit - but you can't admit that so you resort to "you are the problem"
and...
and yet you are the one that has to carve out passenger revenue (which is still less per ASM) because you can't accept that AA, DL and UA all use the same total revenue model and UA has failed to develop non-transportation revenue; UA's lower passenger unit revenue and lower NTR is why UA trails in total revenue and profit - but you can't admit that so you resort to "you are the problem"
and the same is true of every other cherrypicked piece of data that does not align w/ big picture data.
All you have to do is accept big picture facts ALONGSIDE the cherrypicked data - but you cannot harmonize the two so you defer to cherrypicked data and arguing
Tim Dunn says, "UA has failed to develop non-transportation revenue"
UA is digging out of hole, building a foundation and the "non-transportation revenue" will come as it did with DL as it built their foundation.
Tim Dunn says, "UA's lower passenger unit revenue"
It is the difference between revenue and costs that matters and in that regard UA is winning. And the trend with revenue is UA's friend.
TRASM: 2019/2025
UA: +21%
DL: +17%
AA: +15%
thank you for confirming how badly UA underperformed.
We aren't talking about TRASM change.
We are talking about absolute TRASM.
Feel free to post SLA TRASM.
and UA is still underpaying tens of thousands of its employees. It is no wonder AA's profits fell when it increased its pay.
UA's profits will fall - just as happened in 2Q2025 with the FA lump sum charge
@Tim, while DL has the highest absolute TRASM, you also know (and chose to omit) that average stage length is a significant factor in the calculation. So the smaller stage length will show a higher abosolute value.
United's average stage length was ~1,454-1,500 miles in Q1 2025. Delta's average stage length is shrinking, closer to ~769. So United flying passengers much longer flights with more mainline aircraft vs Delta.
So you can't really...
@Tim, while DL has the highest absolute TRASM, you also know (and chose to omit) that average stage length is a significant factor in the calculation. So the smaller stage length will show a higher abosolute value.
United's average stage length was ~1,454-1,500 miles in Q1 2025. Delta's average stage length is shrinking, closer to ~769. So United flying passengers much longer flights with more mainline aircraft vs Delta.
So you can't really use absolute TRASM as a comparison. But Rebel is correct, the real interesting metric is annual growth. UA is growing, DL is staying flat.
I told you to stage length adjust. I am well aware of UA"s longer flights.
Just do SLA to both revenue and costs.
There are good reasons why DL, not UA, leads the US industry in profits. and it has to do with revenue and costs.
UA also outperformed DL in Q1, overall. Revenue and profits all trending better too, as upgauging and hub growth continues across the board.
When UA’s new agreement with Chase comes online, UA’s advantages will be across the board, and not just the advantage UA has just from operating the airline.
you do realize that the year has 4 quarters?
and UA grew less percentage wide across the Pacific than DL; on a capacity adjusted basis, DL's revenue performance was as good or better than UA's not just in the first quarter but EVERY YEAR.
see, you cling to that new Chase contract.... apparently credit card revenue matters - so your "passenger revenue only metric is" garbage by your own words.
DL is almost a non-factor in the Pacific (law of small numbers) which is shocking given where they started. Not sure if the rest of your assertions were regarding the Pacific or the whole airline.
TD in one reply: "UA grew less percentage wide across the Pacific than DL"
TD in another reply: "We aren't talking about TRASM change"
So you can use change/growth as a metric when it suits you then I guess...
I am fully capable of quoting each in the right context. Revenue change goes w/ capacity change. absolute metrics are comparable; change metrics go with each other.
It is people like rebel that love to mix and match
DL is half the size of UA and comparable to a half dozen Asian airlines. UA is oversized relative to the competition and being oversized is why its profit per ASM trails DL.
So if UA trails DL in TPAC and TATL (which clearly they don’t), yet overall profits are similar, that means DL trails UA domestically?
NYC-GVA is mainly a UN route (both places have HQs and a lot of the orgs like UNHCR, WHO etc.), so lots of work travel.
The UN is under massive financial strain, laying off staff and so I imagine has to tighten up travel which is why likely you don’t have the demand there to serve a route like that.
I agree. I have friends who have been laid off or whose contracts were not renewed at the UN. Apparently UN is increasing its presence in Nairobi so perhaps Delta might fly nonstop JFK-NBO someday.
Just seeing this now - I am not going to read all of the discussion and comments, so forgive me if I repeat some points here and there.
1) Delta's NYC operations run more as a huge O&D station rather than a hub. When looking at connections, it seems to be more about connecting people through NYC to take outbound international flights to areas of high demand (business or leisure) rather than the other way...
Just seeing this now - I am not going to read all of the discussion and comments, so forgive me if I repeat some points here and there.
1) Delta's NYC operations run more as a huge O&D station rather than a hub. When looking at connections, it seems to be more about connecting people through NYC to take outbound international flights to areas of high demand (business or leisure) rather than the other way around. It's not surprising that it is tough to compete in NYC to Lufthansa cities, largely because organic US demand to Germany/Switzerland/Austria is lower than what you would expect given the size of those economies/countries. Munich, Frankfurt, Genava, Zurich, hell even Berlin simply punch way under their weight in terms of US tourism. On the other hand, Lufthansa has the local market cornered, and more connectivity through Newark. People talking about how United flies a lot to Amsterdam, Paris, despite them being SkyTeam hubs - that is simply because there is significantly more demand for those cities on the US side.
2) A lot of the post from Lucky seemed to be designed to bait Tim Dunn an others into a big debate (which has occurred), but the one thing I do agree is puzzling as of now is the lack of NYC to Asia flights. Delta should be able to make a JFK to HND work, especially given strong US demand to Japan right now. My guess is that Delta wants to build out LAX as the premium gateway to Asia and sees it as less risky. Flyers in the Northeast (JFK and Boston) can easily connect on Delta One through LAX, while everyone else can connect through ATL/MSP/etc.
Ben is masterful at baiting people to talk and create conflict which drives his page clicks.
When the debate is between me that can see the world as a whole as well as the individual parts and the usual suspects here that slice, dice and cherrypick trying to hard to win because they can't accept the big picture reality, this is just a big game for me. And it is because I win that...
Ben is masterful at baiting people to talk and create conflict which drives his page clicks.
When the debate is between me that can see the world as a whole as well as the individual parts and the usual suspects here that slice, dice and cherrypick trying to hard to win because they can't accept the big picture reality, this is just a big game for me. And it is because I win that they keep trying and I keep sending their bags packing. Every. Single. Time
DL has 3 large TATL hubs on the east coast - ATL which is the mother of all hubs in profitability and size which no other US airline will EVER MATCH; BOS - which DL is pouring into and quickly building to rival PHL and IAD; and NYC - divided between LGA which is essentially a domestic only airport with a perimeter restriction but yet DL has used it to build the largest domestic presence in NYC and JFK which is a true hub including with a very competitive position in NYC and NE.
Add in that DTW is very much a competitive hub for eastern US destinations that can flow over E. Coast hubs and DL has an enormously powerful east coast network.
All of the blabber about UA's single airport hub simply confirms that it put all of its eggs in one airport and it massively has backfired from an operational and size standpoint; EWR is smaller now than it has been in years.
UA cannot win the corporate contracts that DL can w/ a much smaller size domestically, esp. since DL does serve all 3 NYC airports (as does AA and B6) but UA does not.
DL served several markets from ATL - STR, DUS - which other US airlines don't serve at all.
And despite the reshuffling of DL's NYC operations, GVA will be closed as a city based on these reports while BRU moves just to ATL
For all of the blabber about how great IAH is as a gateway to Latin America, the same can be said for SFO to Asia. and yet there is a local market from NYC to Asia and S. America. And DL simply does better from NYC to S. America even without the LA JV than UA does.
and DL has long been stronger to S. America than Central America while the reverse is true for UA - and that is a function of the geography of ATL vs. IAH
some people simply cannot accept that no airline is all things to all people and DL really does do a lot of things better than any other US airline, including making money rather than trying to be the US version of Aeroflot.
Tim Dunn says, "DL has 3 large TATL hubs on the east coast "
And yet,
TATL Destinations
2016/2025
UA: 22/42
DL: 34/32
AA: 21/20
Latin Am Destinations
2016/2025
AA: 92/97
UA: 57/66
DL: 58/52
Hmmm!?
Rebel quit bringing your guns to Lil Timmy’s knife fight!
He’ll come back citing the thousands of DL RJ flights from NYC #winning
rebel continues to think size matters. DL simply doesn't care about markets that only support narrowbody seasonal often less than daily markets.
Now, tell us the total TATL and Latin capacity from ATL, BOS, and JFK compared to IAD plus EWR.
“Rebel continues to think size matters”, says Tim, who constantly says DL has more NYC flights than UA.
Ignoring that all those extra flights are on RJs that still give DL a similar amount of passenger traffic while serving fewer destinations on smaller planes.
Since you brought up nyc and South America and seem unable to think about anything else:
NYC flights to South America in 2025:
1. AA: 2,544
2. UA: 2,386
3. DL: 1,238
2025 seats from NYC to South America:
1. AA 629,366
2. UA 472,671
3. DL 327,549
Just stfu for once. You just blabber with absolutely no data to anything you say. Yet argue to make a point about delta in nyc to South America that doesn’t even exist in reality.
you love to quote ASMs and now you can't quote them to DEEP S. America - you know the kind that requires a widebody.
BOG and UIO are S. America but far different from Brazil, Argentina and this country called Chile that UA doesn't even serve year round.
You aren't even bashful of using your employer-provided tools to argue; wanna tell us that you, not me, are paid to post?
Not you moving the goal posts again. First it was South America now we’re making it something else?
And yes. United still
Has more flights to “Deep South America” than delta from nyc. By about 100. And yes. I do consider Lima Deep South America since your small brain probably wondered.
Not sure what you’re going on about ASMs for but yes. United has more seats, ASMs, and flights from nyc and the...
Not you moving the goal posts again. First it was South America now we’re making it something else?
And yes. United still
Has more flights to “Deep South America” than delta from nyc. By about 100. And yes. I do consider Lima Deep South America since your small brain probably wondered.
Not sure what you’re going on about ASMs for but yes. United has more seats, ASMs, and flights from nyc and the US to South America vs delta.
Apparently, I have to do your research for you now too? ;) this is getting really pathetic for you.
Tim
I know for a fact you aren’t paid by delta to do anything. Why would they want such an idiot posting on their behalf? They fired you. Your time on a.net is well documented. Good god, I sure don’t get paid to make you look foolish, you just make it easy to prove you wrong.
You are funny though. I’ll give you that. You say whatever the hell you want, no data whatsoever, then come up with unique ways to reply to those that simply do use data to present facts, not your fantasies.
You keep believing whatever you want about who I work for. You’ve said I’m United, America west, and AA, I think?
I don’t. Sorry to disappoint you. But your obsession with me does continue.
Tim, there’s an easy fix to this. Post data not your hopes, then you won’t get owned with real data this easily. Just stop making sh*t up. It really isn’t hard to fix your constant issue with being proven wrong and looking dumb.
“ and DL has long been stronger to S. America than Central America while the reverse is true for UA - and that is a function of the geography of ATL vs. IAH”
And again. Not true from NYC to South America and not true from the US to South America. United is the bigger carrier in both metrics to centra and South America.
Do you really enjoy getting owned with data this much?
You just say whatever pops into your head having no idea what reality is.
ASMs please. Your favorite metric. Except when it doesn't tell the truth you don't want to hear or read.
See above.
Are you trying to goad me into making you look foolish again? Why would delta have more ASMs off far fewer flights and less seats? Are you bad at math? You really were pinning this entire reply to me off the hopes that everything I said was based off UA to Bogota and somehow that alone would make ASMs on delta be better ;)
really?
you don't realize that widebody flights that fly further generate more ASMs.
DL's flights from ATL to Latin America are longer on average using larger aircraft than UA from IAH.
Just post the numbers.
flights/seats/ASMs IAH vs. ATL and EWR vs. JFK
You can do your own research, Timmy. You’re the one with a failing article set and just saying whatever pops into your mind. I have little need to first prove you wrong then do your research for you when you can’t be bothered to even start from a place of facts.
Delta is smaller vs UA in every category from nyc and the US to South America.
And yes. I do know how ASMs and...
You can do your own research, Timmy. You’re the one with a failing article set and just saying whatever pops into your mind. I have little need to first prove you wrong then do your research for you when you can’t be bothered to even start from a place of facts.
Delta is smaller vs UA in every category from nyc and the US to South America.
And yes. I do know how ASMs and wide bodies work, hence my joke about your desperate hope that bogota flights on UA would make you right, staking a claim on it, then getting proven wrong.
of course I can do my own research.
You don't like the reality that I paint so your little Cirium account suddenly gets locked up tight.
You run incessantly to prove me wrong w/ any data source you want.
The question is about IAH vs. ATL and JFK vs. EWR on an annual basis.
and if you have one of those high-powered accesses that includes international revenue including flow revenue, it is not hard to see why ATL whips every other hub to Latin America except MIA.
I prove you wrong with actual data that you never use. Not sure what your obsession is about me and who I work for. It sure isn’t at all who you think it is lol
Iah vs ATL vs god knows what is your question. A pure hope and fantasy after being proven wrong on just about everything you’ve stated as fact today.
One fact remains. Delta is the smallest carrier of the US3 on...
I prove you wrong with actual data that you never use. Not sure what your obsession is about me and who I work for. It sure isn’t at all who you think it is lol
Iah vs ATL vs god knows what is your question. A pure hope and fantasy after being proven wrong on just about everything you’ve stated as fact today.
One fact remains. Delta is the smallest carrier of the US3 on every metric to South America from NYC and the US
I’m not your research assistant. It would be one thing if you tried in the slightest to start from data and facts. But you never do.
You are a huge loser obsessed with a company that fired you.
Get a life. The idea that I’m going to do research for an idiot troll like you…
I guess this is an interesting dilemma. JFK slots are a highly limited resource.
If Delta found new routes to replace their bottom performing routes, is that necessarily a bad thing?
This isn't a case where Delta can simultaneously hold onto these routes and launch new service, it's one or the other.
Because of how distributions work, any airline will have routes that are performing the least well. I'm not sure this is really that...
I guess this is an interesting dilemma. JFK slots are a highly limited resource.
If Delta found new routes to replace their bottom performing routes, is that necessarily a bad thing?
This isn't a case where Delta can simultaneously hold onto these routes and launch new service, it's one or the other.
Because of how distributions work, any airline will have routes that are performing the least well. I'm not sure this is really that indicative of Delta's NYC portfolio failing or struggling. If Delta assesses all their JFK routes, something is going to be at the bottom.
City by city data is poor, but it is unlikely that cities like Brussels and Geneva are in the Top 20 - and maybe the Top 30 - in terms of European cities visited by Americans. Not surprising Delta can find better uses for JFK slots.
Yeah, this hardly seems like a significant "ouch" or anything. Delta is simply reassigning its JFK slot portfolio in a way that makes sense.
Yes, I think the main question is why DL has so many underperforming routes from JFK, which is their strongest northeast hub in one of the strongest aviation markets in the world. And why they don’t bother to operate flights to Tokyo or India, which should also be wins for them.
Can we actually conclude this was "underperforming" vs "lower performing"? If you look at the recently axed JFK-BRU, Delta was getting significantly higher loads than SN, sure yields matter, etc. but underperforming would mean it's actually losing money vs lower performing simply meaning there are routes that do better, not the same implication.
All we can really draw is that this route was at the bottom in terms of performance, relative to its other JFK...
Can we actually conclude this was "underperforming" vs "lower performing"? If you look at the recently axed JFK-BRU, Delta was getting significantly higher loads than SN, sure yields matter, etc. but underperforming would mean it's actually losing money vs lower performing simply meaning there are routes that do better, not the same implication.
All we can really draw is that this route was at the bottom in terms of performance, relative to its other JFK routes, and that Delta has found a route that can outperform it.
Suppose if JFK-GVA was even potentially generating $100 per seat (making this up) for the example, but Delta found a new flight that generates $200 per seat. It would be the right business decision to replace JFK-GVA with the higher performing route, given JFK slots and aircraft are a finite set of resources.
Why does it matter if some routes "underperform" from JFK? JFK should be thought of more of an O/D market than a hub for Delta. It is also a very competitive market, with two large domestic airlines and basically every international airline flying to it. Delta doesn't have to dominate every route from the airport, and probably couldn't if they wanted to given slot restrictions.
I really don't care what hubs are the most profitable...
Why does it matter if some routes "underperform" from JFK? JFK should be thought of more of an O/D market than a hub for Delta. It is also a very competitive market, with two large domestic airlines and basically every international airline flying to it. Delta doesn't have to dominate every route from the airport, and probably couldn't if they wanted to given slot restrictions.
I really don't care what hubs are the most profitable / strongest hubs for airlines, but if you do, Delta itself would probably identify ATL and maybe one of its Midwest cities as stronger "hubs" in terms of the traditional sense of a hub. NYC is more of a focus market for NYC residents, for travelers going to NYC, and as a connecting point for international travel. I don't think it is that interesting if a particular route or two or three is swapped out in NYC.
why is it that yolo and Anthony can get it and the UA fan boys cannot?
They make points based on the facts and data.
I would reply with 2 points.
First, I think Ben's point is that this isn't an isolated route, but a pattern where Delta hasn't been able to maintain service from JFK to multiple fairly large (although not the largest) European markets, even though other airlines can, and this despite having a large presence including domestic traffic that should yield enough connections to make it work. Especially if they drop FRA as Ben speculates they...
I would reply with 2 points.
First, I think Ben's point is that this isn't an isolated route, but a pattern where Delta hasn't been able to maintain service from JFK to multiple fairly large (although not the largest) European markets, even though other airlines can, and this despite having a large presence including domestic traffic that should yield enough connections to make it work. Especially if they drop FRA as Ben speculates they might do, that's a lot of still fairly important business centers that one should be able to make work from JFK.
Second, yes, every airline redeploys their assets to find a better performing route. Some airlines like AA are currently constrained in widebody aircraft so they might cut a marginally profitable route to serve something that yields greater profit.
In this case, you're asserting that DL's slot limits at JFK mean this may not be an unprofitable route, just the least profitable one from JFK whose slot could be used for something better. But I doubt this is the case. Delta has tons of JFK slots used for high frequencies to domestic places, not to mention RJs, etc. If this truly is a case of Delta trying to free up slots, there are numerous possibilities among its extensive domestic routes to open up a slot that doesn't involve eliminating an entire destination.
I don't think you can go so far as to say Delta is "failing" at JFK but I don't think the story is as simple as cutting an isolated route to open up a slot for something else.
Delta is going down the hill. Poor customer service, average soft product and always late. And lets not forget Delta pesos!
I lost a classmate on this nyc route. Glad it’s cut. Swiss are overrated . Swiss arrogance.
The high prestige premium routes, Delta cannot survive. JFK - BRU/GVA/MUC or HKG. Delta can only survive against the weaklings, like ITA/Alitalia.
Tim Dunn should run the airline and show them how to improve.
For one thing, Delta is a weak name. Pan Am or Northwest were stronger names but people in the South are often bitter and dumb. Not all people, but quite a lot. It's possibly because of the hot weather which makes...
The high prestige premium routes, Delta cannot survive. JFK - BRU/GVA/MUC or HKG. Delta can only survive against the weaklings, like ITA/Alitalia.
Tim Dunn should run the airline and show them how to improve.
For one thing, Delta is a weak name. Pan Am or Northwest were stronger names but people in the South are often bitter and dumb. Not all people, but quite a lot. It's possibly because of the hot weather which makes it hard to study as a kid, though Taiwan and Singapore do ok despite the hot weather.
Ok, let's not get ahead of ourselves. BRU/GVA/MUC are not high prestige routes.
A better example is NYC to HND is a high prestige route, which Delta doesn't fly, but AA/UA do.
I only came here to read Tim’s comments (and associated responses) and I have not been disappointed.
Perhaps Ben will consider a sub-section of the site devoted solely to Tim’s views? It will create endless entertainment and joy.
Tiny hands Tim is polishing his DL route cancel turd to a shine on this one
Tim says every company gets rid of low-performing lines, but why does DL have so many low-performing lines from NYC?
DL dropped MUC, BRU, GVA, LGW, didn’t even bother applying for HND, no India, only one TLV flight.
Yes many of those are Star hubs, but DL’s strength in NYC should make all of those markets easy wins, especially to business markets.
DL does best in markets without strong competition. Four of their hubs have...
Tim says every company gets rid of low-performing lines, but why does DL have so many low-performing lines from NYC?
DL dropped MUC, BRU, GVA, LGW, didn’t even bother applying for HND, no India, only one TLV flight.
Yes many of those are Star hubs, but DL’s strength in NYC should make all of those markets easy wins, especially to business markets.
DL does best in markets without strong competition. Four of their hubs have no significant competition, not even cross-town competing airports. The four fortress hubs subsidize hubs like SEA, where they underperform the rest of the system and where they will have even more challenges against a stronger AS, also in LAX, where they only have 20% share and are being forced to add unprofitable "strategic" flying to HKG and ORD, and NYC, where they continue to drop markets that should be easily profitable.
The credit card revenue makes up the rest, bringing their overall profits above UA's, even though UA is more profitable and makes more revenue, from airline operations.
UA has five flights to AMS and six to CDG, even those are SkyTeam hubs. DL should be able to maintain at least one flight from NYC to all the cities they’ve dropped or not even started. UA only dropped Bergen, a station DL would never even attempt.
DL operates approximately 15% more flights in NYC, just to carry a similar number of passengers and half the cargo as UA. That alone speaks to some of DL’s struggles in NYC. An inefficient split airport hub, RJ-heavy, one of them restricted by a perimeter rule. Those are some of the reasons DL makes so much less NYC revenue than UA does.
Meanwhile, Kirby has stated plans to take EWR up to *100* widebody departures per day. Dozens of 787 deliveries through the end of 2026 will make their next route announcement very interesting.
tell us why UA dropped LAX-BNE and AKL, Mark
and I'll let you fill in the blank but I'm pretty sure this is UA's year round schedule to SCL from any hub
yep. How has DL managed to push UA out of ANY market from LAX and serves markets from any hub that UA can't serve from ANY of its hubs, Mark
The sooner you and your fellow clowns deal w/ the big picture and...
tell us why UA dropped LAX-BNE and AKL, Mark
and I'll let you fill in the blank but I'm pretty sure this is UA's year round schedule to SCL from any hub
yep. How has DL managed to push UA out of ANY market from LAX and serves markets from any hub that UA can't serve from ANY of its hubs, Mark
The sooner you and your fellow clowns deal w/ the big picture and stop this childish game of tit for tat, I'll walk away.
You can't help yourself because you can't admit that DL generates more total revenue and profits despite UA flying 10% more global ASMs.
If credit card revenue doesn't matter, then don't reply wiht your childish drivel about UA increasing its credit card revenue in the future.
DL simply has figured out how to run a better business than any other US airline and also runs a better airline operationally and from a customer service standpoint.
and sometimes that means culling routes that don't work and replacing them with others.
Moving flights from LAX to the best west coast int'l gateway, SFO, until the 789s with the new Polaris Suites & Studios is just smart. Good to see DL at least trying to get back in the TPAC game after cutting half its TPAC destinations over the last decade.
TPAC destinations 2016/2025
UA: 23/32
DL: 15/8
AA: 8/7
yes, DL realized it didn't make money flying the Pacific via the NRT hub so cut dramatically to reset. They are resetting and the profit numbers that you and max want to believe are all made-up prove that DL is running a more profitable operation across the Pacific than UA is on an ASM basis.
Whether you can admit it or not, DL has successfully pushed UA out of some TPAC markets even if AKL...
yes, DL realized it didn't make money flying the Pacific via the NRT hub so cut dramatically to reset. They are resetting and the profit numbers that you and max want to believe are all made-up prove that DL is running a more profitable operation across the Pacific than UA is on an ASM basis.
Whether you can admit it or not, DL has successfully pushed UA out of some TPAC markets even if AKL is flown by a JV partner, just as DL exited LAX-LHR to leave that market to VS, its JV partner.
and you also can't accept that DL will be adding a whole lot more capacity and routes as its 35Ks come. If they were on-time, we would be seeing more routes.
The fact that DL is adding LAX-HKG on top of UA and CX says that DL is going to fight to get back in the TPAC game - even with its JV partner KE, the two of which have the largest JV over the Pacific.
ICN is simply a superior JV hub than both Tokyo airports combined.
Now, can you address why UA is #3 out of 3 US carriers to S. America from NYC and doesn't seem interested in trying to fix it?
“Now, can you address why UA is #3 out of 3 US carriers to S. America from NYC and doesn't seem interested in trying to fix it?”
Tim
Perhaps you could help the rest of us understand why delta is the smallest US carrier to South America despite having the Latam JV?
UA flies 35% more flights to South America than delta
AA is 168% bigger than delta.
In fact, delta shrunk...
“Now, can you address why UA is #3 out of 3 US carriers to S. America from NYC and doesn't seem interested in trying to fix it?”
Tim
Perhaps you could help the rest of us understand why delta is the smallest US carrier to South America despite having the Latam JV?
UA flies 35% more flights to South America than delta
AA is 168% bigger than delta.
In fact, delta shrunk to South America 25 vs 24. United grew to South America 25 vs 24
Your ability to find weird ways to make a point that isn’t there is always amusing, but ignorant, as usual, and always easy to prove wrong.
Tim Dunn says, "DL will be adding a whole lot more capacity and routes as its 35Ks come. If they were on-time, we would be seeing more routes."
Exactly, which is why UA shifted that capacity from LAX to SFO and let NZ hold down the fort until UA gets the 30 789s with the new high-J Polaris Suites/Studios by the end of next year.
Tim Dunn says, "The fact that DL is adding LAX-HKG...
Tim Dunn says, "DL will be adding a whole lot more capacity and routes as its 35Ks come. If they were on-time, we would be seeing more routes."
Exactly, which is why UA shifted that capacity from LAX to SFO and let NZ hold down the fort until UA gets the 30 789s with the new high-J Polaris Suites/Studios by the end of next year.
Tim Dunn says, "The fact that DL is adding LAX-HKG on top of UA and CX says that DL is going to fight to get back in the TPAC game..."
We'll see if it is true, better late than never. ;)
Tim Dunn says, "Now, can you address why UA is #3 out of 3 US carriers to S. America from NYC and doesn't seem interested in trying to fix it?"
It ain't broke. UA has a hub in IAH you might have heard about. UA can make more money in EWR as it is a gateway better suited for Europe. Does DL fly to any Latin Am destinations out of AUS yet?
# of TLAT Destinations 2016/2025
AA: 92/97
UA: 57/66
DL: 58/52
DL has fewer TATL, TPAC & TLAT destinations than it did a decade ago. UA has grown dramatically in all three regions. It's just a matter of time.
Only tim Dunn could look at UA and DL in lax and come away with a “delta wins” fantasy land.
UA has a JV with the largest carrier on LAX-AKL lol. They didn’t leave the market, they decided jointly with NZ who was better on which route
Delta started AKL year-round and QUICKLY back tracked showing clearly how little they understood the market
Delta on LAX-BNE is an exercise in taking a lot of...
Only tim Dunn could look at UA and DL in lax and come away with a “delta wins” fantasy land.
UA has a JV with the largest carrier on LAX-AKL lol. They didn’t leave the market, they decided jointly with NZ who was better on which route
Delta started AKL year-round and QUICKLY back tracked showing clearly how little they understood the market
Delta on LAX-BNE is an exercise in taking a lot of subsidies. It proves very little. Come back and talk to us when delta drops BNE altogether while UA and AA serve it with their partners
It’s like something crossed your mind and you don’t even think through what you write. Delta didn’t push UA out of anything lol
Delta was pushed easily out of year-round AKL by NZ/UA before they even started it
In the case of both BNE and AKL both Delta and American launched flights there - so I don't know how this is really proving your point Tim - UAL exited markets where yields would clearly drop once the competitors launched? Delta is dropping markets without competition increasing, just seems like underperformance to me.
Tbh I agree with you that Delta has figured out how to run a better business than any other airline and...
In the case of both BNE and AKL both Delta and American launched flights there - so I don't know how this is really proving your point Tim - UAL exited markets where yields would clearly drop once the competitors launched? Delta is dropping markets without competition increasing, just seems like underperformance to me.
Tbh I agree with you that Delta has figured out how to run a better business than any other airline and on all the factors you said. I just think they did so a decade ago and haven't been improving at the rates of the other airlines - and clearly cracks are forming (not saying there are no cracks in the other airlines either) - just if they want to stay #1 they better start fixing their problems because UAL is very quickly closing the gap.
I'd also say the hubris I see whenever Ed Bastian talks to the media gives me no confidence that they will fix their problems. Kirby talks of the future and how they are going to become better, Ed talks about why Delta is currently the best....
Andy says, "I agree with you that Delta has figured out how to run a better business than any other airline and on all the factors you said. I just think they did so a decade ago and haven't been improving at the rates of the other airlines - and clearly cracks are forming (not saying there are no cracks in the other airlines either) - just if they want to stay #1 they better...
Andy says, "I agree with you that Delta has figured out how to run a better business than any other airline and on all the factors you said. I just think they did so a decade ago and haven't been improving at the rates of the other airlines - and clearly cracks are forming (not saying there are no cracks in the other airlines either) - just if they want to stay #1 they better start fixing their problems because UAL is very quickly closing the gap."
That's a good synopsis. I think DL has prospered being pretty conservative over the last 15 years in part because AA was distracted with their merger and UA was grossly mismanaged until Munoz and Kirby turned it around. But now their conservatism and cost consciousness is costing them, and they seem to be resting on their laurels. They are way late in ordering aircraft and very slow in updating the hard product.
UA: 1,054 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/488 NB on order, 15.6 average fleet age
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB on order, 14.1 average fleet age
BNE, where DL operates because of subsidies, and only on a seasonal basis? AKL, where DL also quickly went seasonal instead of their announced year-round? lol
Compared to UA, which offers year-round service to BNE and AKL from its crown jewel west coast hub, just a few hundred miles up the road?
Are we talking about SYD, where UA operates from SFO, LAX, and IAH?
MEL, where UA operates from LAX and SFO?
ADL and...
BNE, where DL operates because of subsidies, and only on a seasonal basis? AKL, where DL also quickly went seasonal instead of their announced year-round? lol
Compared to UA, which offers year-round service to BNE and AKL from its crown jewel west coast hub, just a few hundred miles up the road?
Are we talking about SYD, where UA operates from SFO, LAX, and IAH?
MEL, where UA operates from LAX and SFO?
ADL and CHC, with flights from SFO while DL doesn't even serve them?
PPT, where DL canceled its service?
BKK, MNL, KIX, SGN, SIN, PEK, all stations DL closed?
The overall Pacific region, which saw DL yield drop 7% while UA's gained? Is this an example of DL trying to compete with UA and become more like them, but not being successful at it?
You also don't answer the question about UA and DL profits, which are similar (UA actually outperformed DL in Q1, in spite of the temporary revenue advantage DL has from credit card agreements). If DL outperforms UA in TPAC and TATL, does that mean UA outperforms DL in domestic? DL can't outperform UA everywhere, while still making similar profits.
So where does UA outperform DL? And why does DL have so many routes and stations they need to close? Is their route planning department not as effective as UA's, which only saw UA close Bergen? Why can't they compete against UA and Star, even though UA can compete against OneWorld and SkyTeam?
"The sooner you and your fellow clowns deal w/ the big picture and stop this childish game of tit for tat, I'll walk away."
So you're saying there's a chance?!
yes, Sam. the sooner you reign in these people that cannot accept that UA really is not the end-all and be-all that is best at everything, the sooner I will happily participate less.
These clowns stop whatever they are doing and grab their employer-provided cirium accounts to argue about 2% difference while ignoring double digit differences in revenue and profitability.
The simple reality is that DL and UA and their JV partners have both...
yes, Sam. the sooner you reign in these people that cannot accept that UA really is not the end-all and be-all that is best at everything, the sooner I will happily participate less.
These clowns stop whatever they are doing and grab their employer-provided cirium accounts to argue about 2% difference while ignoring double digit differences in revenue and profitability.
The simple reality is that DL and UA and their JV partners have both yielded to each other in certain markets.
UA has simply shrunk from its vaunted position at LAX as DL has grown.
To argue about subsidies when UA got them as well is hypocrisy at its finest
If UA was half as good as some people think they are, then UA would be generating 10% more profits and revenues to match its 10% more ASMs.
The sooner some people accept that reality, the sooner I will find myself with more time on my hands than I have now.
oh and analyst estimates are for DL to outperform UA and every other airline on the bottom line for Q3.
This would be a great time for some people to start accepting that UA will miss yet another opportunity to pass DL -even though Kirby will yell like a madman that every other airline's business plan is a failure
Tim Dunn says, "If UA was half as good as some people think they are, then UA would be generating 10% more profits and revenues to match its 10% more ASMs."
UA already makes more flying passengers while paying down debt and incurring the high costs of growth relative to DL which is actually amazingly impressive. The ancillary revenue/profits will follow. It's just a matter of time.
UA: 1,054 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/488 NB...
Tim Dunn says, "If UA was half as good as some people think they are, then UA would be generating 10% more profits and revenues to match its 10% more ASMs."
UA already makes more flying passengers while paying down debt and incurring the high costs of growth relative to DL which is actually amazingly impressive. The ancillary revenue/profits will follow. It's just a matter of time.
UA: 1,054 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/488 NB on order, 15.6 average fleet age
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB on order, 14.1 average fleet age
Just say it.
UA makes less money using the business model it uses than DL. UA has a credit card program and is building it; if it didn't think it mattered, it wouldn't be adding it
Airplanes don't matter any more than WalMart wins by accumulating trucks and warehouses.
That is true today, but the trend is overwhelmingly UA's friend. DL is relatively stagnant resting on its laurels just like your cheerleading is. I post the following because it is a clear picture of future potential.
UA: 1,054 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/488 NB on order, 15.6 average fleet age
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB...
That is true today, but the trend is overwhelmingly UA's friend. DL is relatively stagnant resting on its laurels just like your cheerleading is. I post the following because it is a clear picture of future potential.
UA: 1,054 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/488 NB on order, 15.6 average fleet age
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB on order, 14.1 average fleet age
And the next 12 months UA is focusing on building the mid-continent hubs and I bet 2027 will return to international with 30 787s coming before the end of next year.
To be totally fair though, the SkyTeam Europe hubs are much more desirable than Star Alliance Europe hubs.
UA must fly to those destinations or lose out on traffic. I'm not sure CDG/AMS are comparable to lower tier stations like GVA/BRU.
It's the same reason Delta must fly to HND, even though its JV hub is in ICN. Tokyo is the much more important market.
yolo says, "It's the same reason Delta must fly to HND, even though its JV hub is in ICN. Tokyo is the much more important market."
But while UA flies to more TATL cities DAL shrank in TPAC. UA is bigger than DL with TATL and bigger than DL & AA combined with TPAC. And UA is adding 183 wide body aircraft while DL is adding 28.
Yes, and that is why DL is losing out on the TPAC side vs UA.
I'm just explaining that it's flawed logic to say UA does something that DL doesn't, automatically means they are superior in some way.
yolo says, "I'm just explaining that it's flawed logic to say UA does something that DL doesn't, automatically means they are superior in some way."
Not sure to what you are referring specifically, but obviously every airline has strengths and challenges with which they operate. DL was the first US network airline to be managed effectively and they enjoyed the rewards of that for the past decade or so. UA has almost closed the gap...
yolo says, "I'm just explaining that it's flawed logic to say UA does something that DL doesn't, automatically means they are superior in some way."
Not sure to what you are referring specifically, but obviously every airline has strengths and challenges with which they operate. DL was the first US network airline to be managed effectively and they enjoyed the rewards of that for the past decade or so. UA has almost closed the gap and is positioned very well for growth and strong relative success into the future.
I'm mainly referring to the top comment: "UA has five flights to AMS and six to CDG, even those are SkyTeam hubs. DL should be able to maintain at least one flight from NYC to all the cities they’ve dropped or not even started. UA only dropped Bergen, a station DL would never even attempt."
UA does this because they need to fly to CDG and AMS, not because of some unique advantage they have....
I'm mainly referring to the top comment: "UA has five flights to AMS and six to CDG, even those are SkyTeam hubs. DL should be able to maintain at least one flight from NYC to all the cities they’ve dropped or not even started. UA only dropped Bergen, a station DL would never even attempt."
UA does this because they need to fly to CDG and AMS, not because of some unique advantage they have. If anything, it's because they are at a geopgraphical and partner disadvantage and need to close the gap. Hope that makes sense to you.
Those make sense. I would only add that 80% of US airline int'l traffic are Americans and EWR being a NYC connecting hub is a significant advantage over LGA + JFK when it comes to TATL.
and you can't accept that ATL and DTW handle a huge amount of connecting traffic that AA and UA need to carry over their NE hubs.
Other people have figured out that DL does not need to use JFK or BOS to carry as much connecting traffic. ATL and DTW carry much of the connecting traffic that AA and UA have to carry over eastern US hubs.
and IAD lacks the domestic market - that...
and you can't accept that ATL and DTW handle a huge amount of connecting traffic that AA and UA need to carry over their NE hubs.
Other people have figured out that DL does not need to use JFK or BOS to carry as much connecting traffic. ATL and DTW carry much of the connecting traffic that AA and UA have to carry over eastern US hubs.
and IAD lacks the domestic market - that largely flies out of DCA. UA's single airport NYC strategy tied w/ IAD gives UA a much smaller part of the domestic market in the NE. UA tries to make up for it w/ a larger international presence but the domestic market is still the largest for UA and every other US airline across their systems.
You once again cannot admit that DL has bested UA in total eastern US presence across the Atlantic.
UA does the same thing across the Pacific from the western US; you love to talk about SFO but can't recognize or admit that the inverse is true on the E. Coast.
There's no 'need' about it.
All else being equal a connecting hub + O&D > O&D only and one airport/metro area is preferable to two.
Other factors
Metro area GDP
Market share
Airport size
Lots of jobs being cut in Geneva at the moment (UN and NGOs) Maybe one of the reasons DL pulled out.
@Tim Dunn please stop pretending you aren't compensated by Delta to patrol blogs and write favorable things about Delta. Your comments are so tedious, predictable and bias it's really tiresome.
We get it. Delta makes a lot of money and out completes the clown cars in Dallas, but if they didn't have a total lack of competition in captive hubs and had to deal with international carriers, domestically, it would be a dramatically different picture
Delta should just get out of the passenger business and just concentrate on charters especially sports teams
So DL has been smarter than not just AA (which is actually headquartered in Ft. Worth) and WN (Dallas) but also that one in Chicago.
So, it is not ok for DL to have spent the last almost 50 years of deregulation to figure out how to dominate its big 4 interior US hubs but AA and UA have, at best, only figured out how to copy DL with that same strategy and LH Group...
So DL has been smarter than not just AA (which is actually headquartered in Ft. Worth) and WN (Dallas) but also that one in Chicago.
So, it is not ok for DL to have spent the last almost 50 years of deregulation to figure out how to dominate its big 4 interior US hubs but AA and UA have, at best, only figured out how to copy DL with that same strategy and LH Group has used it from a market share standpoint but not succeeded at a profit standpoint?
Let's call a spade what it is.
Every airline has to have strength markets. AA has them, UA has them, WN has them. and DL has them.
and every airline has highly competitive markets. DL's growth post-covid has been almost entirely in its highly competitive hubs of NYC, BOS, LAX and a little growth for SEA.
DL has just figured out better than other US airlines how to not only dominate its markets but also to grow into other carrier strength markets while also recognizing that it simply does not have to be all things to all people - just as UA realized it will not ever have a NYC-S. America network anywhere comparable to AA or DL.
It would be nice if Delta would resume its New York (JFK) to Warsaw (WAW) route.
GVA is a tough one for both airlines and hotels. It's often overlooked as a destination and viewed strictly as a business location, despite having incredible access to amazing places for both summer and winter activities. The city itself is definitely not my favorite, but it's nice having flights there for that access. I think for most people who are actually traveling to Switzerland, ZRH just provides much easier transfers and there is much more...
GVA is a tough one for both airlines and hotels. It's often overlooked as a destination and viewed strictly as a business location, despite having incredible access to amazing places for both summer and winter activities. The city itself is definitely not my favorite, but it's nice having flights there for that access. I think for most people who are actually traveling to Switzerland, ZRH just provides much easier transfers and there is much more airline service to choose from. From a tourist perspective, GVA is to Switzerland what Frankfurt is to Germany (though GVA is significantly nicer than FRA).
Hey Ben I think it's exaggerated to consider GVA a hub for Swiss as their booking system does not allow for connections there and the wide-bodies are operated from ZRH as a big rotation (ZRH-JFK-GVA-JFK-ZRH). Maybe focus city depicts better the situation. And focus city is a generous word: they mostly operate leisure traffic to Spain and Greece and feeder flights to LHG bigger hubs.
It is a pity for GVA as DL lowered...
Hey Ben I think it's exaggerated to consider GVA a hub for Swiss as their booking system does not allow for connections there and the wide-bodies are operated from ZRH as a big rotation (ZRH-JFK-GVA-JFK-ZRH). Maybe focus city depicts better the situation. And focus city is a generous word: they mostly operate leisure traffic to Spain and Greece and feeder flights to LHG bigger hubs.
It is a pity for GVA as DL lowered fares. Economy tickets are always cheap: the market's core is business travel, especially for corporate contracts (UN, NGOs finance) and high-value cargo like watches and gold. I have to assume too little of that high value traffic was willing to switch to a fourth player (consider AC to YUL as well). Let's not forget the reduced spending following UN's budget cuts.
In my personal experience travelling in J to the Midwest, United's EWR connections were always better than Delta's JFK ones. And UA had a backup through IAD. So despite lower seasonal fares on DL flying was always on UA.
It's a pity as pricing will increase again despite 100% of the market being served by less comfortable old generation aircraft with nosebleed inducing moisture levels...
GVA just isn't that big of a station. SWISS only flies to JFK from it. It only has a handful of North American flights otherwise. Outside of NYC, it's UA's IAD and AC's YUL. Not even YYZ, BOS, or other major East Coast cities.
NGL I get a semi chub when delta cancels a route
Weirdo
oh look. Fake Julie is back at it today.
Here to talk about your multiple personalities again or will you just do that from your Tim Dunn account?
Weirdo
I looked at flying to Switzerland this past winter for snowsports. UA/LX was close to 50% cheaper than Delta in Prem Eco. There's just no way to defend paying that much more.
And I see that fare difference to many European destinations. Delta now throwing darts at a map of Europe and hoping people will pony up a premium price for a relatively undifferentiated product is something. Is it a strategy?
+1. Couldn’t agree more.
Whenever I book flights to or from Europe, US carriers are more expensive, even though the quality is generally lower. But there’s a captive audience of Delta loyalists who are obsessed with SkyPesos (and DL in general), or people like me who will choose UA even though it’s $200 more than EK from MXP, just because I’m hoping my PlusPoint upgrade will finally clear (it never does).
Especially when it is a 40 year old 767 with incredibly noise 20th century design and engines.
Keep in mind the NJ-Geneva route premium customers are pharmaceutical industry executives. JFK is at a big disadvantage there.
Not for LX, which has flown the route continuously since the 1970s (first SR, then LX).
NGO/pseudo-Gov traffic is more heavily concentrated at JFK while pharma traffic including cargo is heavier at EWR.
there is obviously spill both ways but pharma is the corporate part of the GVA market and it favors NJ and northern PA
Not surprising at all. Delta was never going to succeed in this market. Swiss and *A have the lock on this market and have for decades. Interesting to see Delta ending some flights to Europe from JFK (BRU, GVA). Not surprising, but clearly, there was some froth.
SWISS is not top-10, but boy is it so far better than Delta!
No surprises, anyone in business or with money is flying SWISS (they're no dummies, or they probably wouldn't be wealthy).
I’m no Delta stan, but this is so wrong it’s laughable. I don’t think there’s a single aspect of the Swiss business class experience that is above average on this route.
Swiss’s lounge (Lufthansa business in T1) is terrible. Literally not even comparable to the Delta One lounge.
Swiss’s hard product on the A330 is woefully uncompetitive in 2025 — uncomfortable seats, tiny and low resolution TVs, and some seats without all-aisle access....
I’m no Delta stan, but this is so wrong it’s laughable. I don’t think there’s a single aspect of the Swiss business class experience that is above average on this route.
Swiss’s lounge (Lufthansa business in T1) is terrible. Literally not even comparable to the Delta One lounge.
Swiss’s hard product on the A330 is woefully uncompetitive in 2025 — uncomfortable seats, tiny and low resolution TVs, and some seats without all-aisle access. Granted the Delta One seats on the 767-400 aren’t winning any awards, but they’ve at least been refurbished recently and are far superior to what Swiss offers.
Swiss’s catering is below average. Delta isn’t exactly serving gourmet meals, but they do have better food than Swiss (and even better champagne!)
Delta’s IFE is FAR superior (not to mention the free WiFi as compared to Swiss’s extortionately priced WiFi).
I literally cannot think of a single aspect of the experience where Swiss outperforms Delta.
The European carriers (other than Air France, Turkish, and arguably British) have fallen so far. It’s sad, really. The US airlines have essentially lapped them all at this point.
Makes it even more surprising that DL is the one canceling the flight, given their NYC hub,
Geneva is gorgeous, and so is Lausanne (40 minutes away by train). The world's best ski areas are right outside the town. But who would fly there on Delta is beyond me. Swiss has so much better service, and flight attendants speak French.
“But who would fly there on Delta is beyond me. Swiss has so much better service, and flight attendants speak French.”
Is this a joke? I can’t speak to Swiss’s economy service, but Swiss business class is an absolute joke — among the absolute worst of any carrier across the Atlantic. I flew Swiss business class on JFK-GVA last month and was so incredibly disappointed. The seats are uncomfortable (and don’t all have aisle access),...
“But who would fly there on Delta is beyond me. Swiss has so much better service, and flight attendants speak French.”
Is this a joke? I can’t speak to Swiss’s economy service, but Swiss business class is an absolute joke — among the absolute worst of any carrier across the Atlantic. I flew Swiss business class on JFK-GVA last month and was so incredibly disappointed. The seats are uncomfortable (and don’t all have aisle access), the TVs are tiny and low resolution, the service was forgettable and the food was average at best (and there wasn’t even a hot food item for breakfast (????)). Delta One blows Swiss’s business class out of the water — and it’s not close.
And yet DL is the one ending the route.
As saying goes: Accept with simplicity everything that happens to you.
What is happening with the slots being freed up by these cancellations? I.e. where are they refocusing their assets at JFK?
DL is operating 4 more slots this summer than it has the slots for due to the waivers airlines like AA are using.
DL has so far added Olbia / Malta for one slot, but is cutting LGW, BRU, and GVA now freeing up 3 slots.
The waivers were extended for another year, but even with these cuts DL is slightly above summer capacity that they have, so there isn’t a ton of flexibility for new adds.
Lucky, you mention that SWISS is the only carrier flying New York to Geneva and "has the market to itself", but United does as well - UA Flight 956 from EWR to GVA (no need for anyone to be pedantic, EWR obviously serves the New York market).
Given that Swiss and United have a joint venture, Star Alliance absolutely dominates the market.
@Dolphin Lucky wrote about how it is the carrier’s only service to Geneva and he was referring to Delta. He mentioned how United besides the Lufthansa group airlines fly to Geneva as well from all points in the U.S.
The photo caption says
"SWISS now has the New York to Geneva market to itself"
I think that's the bit that might need changing.
first, GVA is not a business market; it is an NGO and pseudo-government center just like BRU. Those types of markets do not generate fares as high as a true business markets and they book much more in blocks than corporate/business markets.
second, yes, the LH Group dominates its market, many of which are are smaller than other big European hubs, and UA has aligned itself to expand on that dominance. It is no...
first, GVA is not a business market; it is an NGO and pseudo-government center just like BRU. Those types of markets do not generate fares as high as a true business markets and they book much more in blocks than corporate/business markets.
second, yes, the LH Group dominates its market, many of which are are smaller than other big European hubs, and UA has aligned itself to expand on that dominance. It is no different than what DL does in ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC - but the difference is that DL is profitable in its hubs while LH as a standalone is barely profitable, Brussels is not, and LX is quite profitable.
third, DL's industry leading profitability including on its international system is because it culls what doesn't work and adds more of what does. DOT data for the 2nd quarter shows that DL's profitability over the Atlantic was almost 2X more than UA's and 4X more than AA's. Flying to every dot some geek in route planning can find is not a metric for success.
fourth, DL passed on JFK-HND at a time when US-Tokyo traffic was weak from reduced Japanese travel to the US and had not flipped to heavy US originating passengers. There will be movement in HND slots for US carriers because AS wants into HND and UA still wants to fix its Tokyo network including flying IAH-HND instead of NRT.
fifth, DL "borrowed" flight time for the short-lived JFK-MUC from DTW-MUC which has been reinstated.
DL still is the largest carrier in terms of flights from NYC with dominance of the domestic market. UA will continue to prioritize international flights from its reduced EWR presence and will pay the price in reduce contribution from its credit card and loyalty program which favors domestic revenue over international revenue.
@ Tim Dunn -- So why do you think the route failed? And if it's an NGO market, why did Delta operate it as a summer seasonal flight?
Also, Delta's profitability is no longer industry leading. Emirates' profitability is industry leading. But I digress (and please don't exclusively focus on this comment in your response)...
The fact that he doesn’t consider Geneva to be a business city shows how little he knows, Lucky.
DL did not get enough of the NGO/pseudo government traffic; same as BRU.
DL tried to compensate by flying it seasonally to get high leisure fares but that is not enough and does not incentivize the little corporate and much larger NGO traffic to choose DL.
I have said before that all of the US airlines are for profit companies first and foremost. DL has to maximize profits first of all. The mere fact that...
DL did not get enough of the NGO/pseudo government traffic; same as BRU.
DL tried to compensate by flying it seasonally to get high leisure fares but that is not enough and does not incentivize the little corporate and much larger NGO traffic to choose DL.
I have said before that all of the US airlines are for profit companies first and foremost. DL has to maximize profits first of all. The mere fact that DL outperforms UA in international profitability metrics despite UA's lower labor costs says that DL is willing to cull what doesn't work and build on what does.
And further regarding NYC-Asia, DL moves very methodically. DL focused for years on building SEA-Asia - might or might not do more later, is now building LAX-Asia, and will build JFK-Asia.
DL's profitability leads US carriers. If DL could get by with sourcing its employees from countries so it could pay its employees EK level wages, DL's profits would clearly be much higher. not even UA is willing to pay its employees US industry leading salaries despite its CEO repeatedly saying so. AA gets more credit for paying its employees market rates than UA does.
@ Tim Dunn -- Right, but *why* wasn't Delta able to get that traffic? We know Delta wasn't able to make it work, but what I'm curious to get your take on is why Delta couldn't make it work. When Delta announced something, you always talk about why it's going to be successful. Then when Delta ends a route, you point out how the airline is the most profitable, but don't address why a particular...
@ Tim Dunn -- Right, but *why* wasn't Delta able to get that traffic? We know Delta wasn't able to make it work, but what I'm curious to get your take on is why Delta couldn't make it work. When Delta announced something, you always talk about why it's going to be successful. Then when Delta ends a route, you point out how the airline is the most profitable, but don't address why a particular route failed.
When the route launched, you said the following:
-- "DL is clearly counting corporate/government/NGO revenue. Specifically because UA and LX have had a monopoly, DL can come in and price at levels lower than Star and still do well."
-- "As much as you want to argue otherwise, DL's ability to add new routes including in markets such as GVA is a direct result of the $2 billion cost advantage which DL has."
So what has changed?
I just explained, Ben, that pseudo-gov/NGO traffic books in much larger blocks than corporate traffic. DL could not break into that which is not surprising given that LX covers JFK and UA covers EWR.
It is just as much about dominating European markets as DL does in its domestic markets.
and DL may well have undercut LX and UA but did not succeed; neither you or I have access to negotiated pricing but the...
I just explained, Ben, that pseudo-gov/NGO traffic books in much larger blocks than corporate traffic. DL could not break into that which is not surprising given that LX covers JFK and UA covers EWR.
It is just as much about dominating European markets as DL does in its domestic markets.
and DL may well have undercut LX and UA but did not succeed; neither you or I have access to negotiated pricing but the formula didn't work.
This is the time of the year that DL culls poor performing routes and adds new routes. We may have heard all we will about new routes from DL for 2026 but it should be obvious that DL will be larger across the Atlantic in 2026 than it was in 2025. How those pieces come together may fascinate you but the big picture is what matters.
I realize you are neither a big picture or a numbers person but you should be asking the question as to why DL is so much more profitable than UA on its international system even though UA touts the size of its international system. You do rightly acknowledge that UA has a labor cost advantage right now.
It is remarkable that CF used DOT profitability data to write about non-publicly traded companies like Breeze and yet you have readers that think that data is all made up and manipulated. CF is by far the most analytical aviation blogger on the internet. There is real value to that data.
Jordan's observations are accurate.
Dolphin,
UA probably makes more money on pharma shipments - which the 787-10 can maximize than on pharma execs up front. and pharma cargo books in large blocks just like government/NGO traffic.
“ It is remarkable that CF used DOT profitability data to write about non-publicly traded companies like Breeze and yet you have readers that think that data is all made up and manipulated. ”
For the 100th time now, tim?
It isn’t made up. You just try to use dot geographic revenue data to compare regional profitability between the US3 and, as you’ve been told many times, it can’t be used in that way since...
“ It is remarkable that CF used DOT profitability data to write about non-publicly traded companies like Breeze and yet you have readers that think that data is all made up and manipulated. ”
For the 100th time now, tim?
It isn’t made up. You just try to use dot geographic revenue data to compare regional profitability between the US3 and, as you’ve been told many times, it can’t be used in that way since there is no standardized reporting required by DOT.
The dot financial data certainly can tell you who is the most profitable overall, but it does not provide the insights you love to use it for. It simply says delta is the most profitable overall. It does not say delta is more profitable than United transatlantic or in the pacific.
Your ignorance doesn’t mean others think the dot makes up data, it just means you never learn what data is and is not.
But then again, here we are explaining the same simple revenue accounting concepts to you for years now…
@Max, you're 100% right, but what's the point in bringing up that fact (that DOT data is way less meaningful at a region level). Tim will just ignore the things he can't argue against and parrot the same bullet points as always.
UA advantages: EWR is a connecting hub, high-J 767 with Polaris suites & PP, stable year round service and Star Alliance connectivity, and it's not isolated.
TATL destinations: 2016/2025
UA: 22/42
DL: 32/34 (33 w/o GVA)
AA: 21/20
I absolutely LOVE that Ben has the receipts on Tim’s contradictions. lol
I keep meaning to look up Tim’s comments on the “inefficient” split airport hubs in Tokyo and London, while also pointing out that DL’s split hub in NYC is perfect.
Having booked and flown this route several times, award availability has historically been fantastic (through partners and in J, no less). Fares have also been kept quite low due to competition (e.g. Y GVA-NYC is typically $400-500 nonstop roundtrip on DL/LX/UA). With the route ending, I expect prices will go up significantly.
It's important to note that Geneva's NGO / expat community has faced a huge cull in the last year (due to US funding...
Having booked and flown this route several times, award availability has historically been fantastic (through partners and in J, no less). Fares have also been kept quite low due to competition (e.g. Y GVA-NYC is typically $400-500 nonstop roundtrip on DL/LX/UA). With the route ending, I expect prices will go up significantly.
It's important to note that Geneva's NGO / expat community has faced a huge cull in the last year (due to US funding cuts to UN & other NGOs), with budgets for non-essential travel / staff significantly reduced. Although, GVA-NYC is the one route that has an exception for UN travel policies of 9hrs+ for J.
GVA is a major business market for the pharma industry. UN traffic is secondary. There's a reason UA sends the high-premium 767 with 46 business seats there.
Tim “Facts” Dunn again speaking out of his ass without ever mentioning the facts he is so obsessed about. One more cancelled route by Delta and he will likely need internment at an asylum.
He thinks of he keeps saying “pseudo-gov/NGO traffic” enough times it’ll be true.
the only people that are at risk of an asylum are those that cannot accept real facts.
DL makes far more money than any other US airline and is still the largest airline on widebody equipment to Europe. UA's size is larger only because of its use of narrowbodies which AA and DL do not do. AA and UA will fly the XLR but DL will not.
Every well-run company gets rid of low performing...
the only people that are at risk of an asylum are those that cannot accept real facts.
DL makes far more money than any other US airline and is still the largest airline on widebody equipment to Europe. UA's size is larger only because of its use of narrowbodies which AA and DL do not do. AA and UA will fly the XLR but DL will not.
Every well-run company gets rid of low performing lines of business and adds others while keeping and growing its core, profitable businesses. That is true of hotels, sports teams, media companies - and airlines.
Some people want to turn everything into a pi8uoing match by highlighting any seeming setback while those of us that understand business are capable of looking at the big picture.
I do not hold onto any single route or hub. I do look at the big picture and DL clearly does as well.
JFK-GVA and BRU will not make or break DL in NYC.
and to Ben's observation, I would strongly bet that DL will fly JFK-HND at some point and maybe BOS-HND; DL will add multiple JFK-Asia flights and will be able to do far more than UA solely because of the greater capabilities and size of the A350 family compared to the 787. DL already serves more of S. America from JFK than UA does from EWR - even before adding the LA JV.
No matter how much some people want to argue how superior they are, no airline - including DL - or any other business can and will be all things to all people.
Tim Dunn says, "DL makes far more money than any other US airline and is still the largest airline on widebody equipment to Europe. UA's size is larger only because of its use of narrowbodies which AA and DL do not do. AA and UA will fly the XLR but DL will not."
Wide body aircraft
UA: 228 with 30 more 787s by the end of next year.
DL: 187 with 9 more WBs by the end of next year.
@rebel
...Is that his new wording? lol. That delta flies more wide bodies to Europe?
He used to say delta flew more wide bodies out of nyc than United which is not true, at all, and was proven to him.
I guess he had to find a new thing to make up and hope no one looks it up.
But the nice thing is it’s an easy thing to look up:
@rebel
Is that his new wording? lol. That delta flies more wide bodies to Europe?
He used to say delta flew more wide bodies out of nyc than United which is not true, at all, and was proven to him.
I guess he had to find a new thing to make up and hope no one looks it up.
But the nice thing is it’s an easy thing to look up:
2025: United flies more widebody flights to Europe than delta and more ASMs.
2025 widebody flights USEurope UA: 53,400
ASMs: 57,430,551,148
2025 widebody flights USEurope DL: 52,029
ASMs: 56,593,097,468
Oh tim. You’re still wrong. Do you even bother looking up what you say? I know you make up most of what you say but this is sad that you make it so easy to show that to others.
Oh and Tim?
Delta does fly narrowbodies to Europe, per their own JV definition of Europe.
You need new talking points. Your current ones are just not reality, much like your current mental state.
Tim says every company gets rid of low-performing lines, but why does DL have so many low-performing lines from NYC?
DL dropped MUC, BRU, GVA, didn’t even bother applying for HND, no India, only one TLV flight
Yes those are Star hubs, but DL’s strength in NYC should make all of those markets easy wins, especially to business markets.
UA has five flights to AMS and six to CDG, even those are SkyTeam...
Tim says every company gets rid of low-performing lines, but why does DL have so many low-performing lines from NYC?
DL dropped MUC, BRU, GVA, didn’t even bother applying for HND, no India, only one TLV flight
Yes those are Star hubs, but DL’s strength in NYC should make all of those markets easy wins, especially to business markets.
UA has five flights to AMS and six to CDG, even those are SkyTeam hubs. DL should be able to maintain at least one flight from NYC to all the cities they’ve dropped or not even started. UA only dropped Bergen, a station DL would never even attempt.
DL operates approximately 15% more flights in NYC, just to carry a similar number of passengers and half the cargo as UA. That alone speaks to some of DL’s struggles in NYC. An inefficient split airport hubs, RJ-heavy, one of them restricted by a perimeter rule. Those are some of the reasons DL makes so much less NYC revenue than UA does.
Meanwhile, Kirby has stated plans to take EWR up to *100* widebody departures per day. Dozens of 787 deliveries will make their next route announcement very interesting.
@Tim Dunn
I was under the impression that PERFECT airlines didn't start flights they had to discontinue. LOL
I do have the ability to create the longest comment threads on this site. Throw in a little gas from Ben and you wonder why I am going precisely nowhere.
So glad to have you, Max and rebel.
Did you use your employer provided cirium login to refresh those flight and ASM numbers?
Does your employer not also have access to DOT data on costs that should allow you to calculate the cost per...
I do have the ability to create the longest comment threads on this site. Throw in a little gas from Ben and you wonder why I am going precisely nowhere.
So glad to have you, Max and rebel.
Did you use your employer provided cirium login to refresh those flight and ASM numbers?
Does your employer not also have access to DOT data on costs that should allow you to calculate the cost per seat mile for those high J 763s and 757s that UA uses to THE UK AND CONTINENTAL EUROPE which UA uniquely flies among US airlines? Of course KEF is continental Europe but DL uses a 767 from NYC with direct aisle access. Does UA even send a 767 to KEF or EDI or a bunch of other cities that DL serves with widebodies?
You have proven time and time again that any data that you don't like or that shows that DL is in the lead is wrong data.
The simple fact is that you, rebel and mark all subscribe that bigger is better = unless of course it is profits where UA lags even w/ its underpaid FAs and mechanics.
Did you bother to compare DL and UA's profit by region data that was just released by the DOT to their SEC-filed income statements for Q2? If you did, you would see that the total of DL and UA's global region profitability is within a couple of percent of what they each reported to the SEC.
I have told you multiple times before that you are free to divide up the global profits differently but you are not free to change the total. I'm still waiting for you to tell us what you would like to cut in order for UA's international margins to increase.
You and rebel and mark can't accept that UA does a lot of things including high J 767s, narrowbodies to continental Europe and the UK and a far less fuel efficient fleet across the Pacific that are precisely why UA's costs are higher; and it flies routes with much more capacity that depress its yields. CF posted a list of markets even across the Atlantic that are poor performers including some AMS flights.
and you all can't seem to explain why UA can't make EWR-GIG or EWR-EZE work at any time of year while AA and DL can do both at least seasonally and or year round form JFK.
and would you kindly post UA's year round schedule from any hub to SCL. I'll do it for you.
Yep, that's it.
UA can't even figure out how to fly to some major markets but DL can?
the sooner you 3 clowns and others accept the reality that UA is bigger internationally but can't translate that into higher profits and total revenue - which includes loyalty program and credit card revenue - the sooner I'll shut up.
But you stooges can't help yourself -so I have "work' to do for a good long time into the future.
UA is simply
15 paragraphs to reply to me and all you can come up with is: max must have a real job? My employer isn’t paying for anything I use here. Thanks pal.
You can blame your own ignorance and complete lack of anything factual on how poor you are all you want (while begging your buddies at delta and those that left in 2005… for sound bites that are wrong) but it changes nothing.
You’re...
15 paragraphs to reply to me and all you can come up with is: max must have a real job? My employer isn’t paying for anything I use here. Thanks pal.
You can blame your own ignorance and complete lack of anything factual on how poor you are all you want (while begging your buddies at delta and those that left in 2005… for sound bites that are wrong) but it changes nothing.
You’re still wrong and it’s still so painfully sad and obvious that you can’t just admit you’re wrong but rather try to say I won’t admit some random thing you made up
You make up fake stats, get proven wrong about delta being bigger at something then desperately try to change the topic to avoid looking the idiot you are.
Now you want to talk about why delta’s JV with LA is the only reason they’re good at something in Latin America vs UA? You’re so weird and again… try so desperately to misdirect and obscure your own idiocy when you get proven wrong so easily.
You need mental help.
DL is currently more profitable than UA, but the trend is UA's friend.
Fleet size 2016/2025
UA: 737/1,054
DL: 832/992
UA has added twice as many net aircraft over the last decade
this thing was a strategic blunder from the start
I don't see this as a loss.
It could be a loss for people traveling between the 2 cities as it is one less option for them.