Air traffic controllers have stressful jobs, and they can have a lot of tasks to manage at once. However, sometimes it seems like they only create more work for themselves when they have an attitude. That brings us to a recent incident that happened at San Diego International Airport (SAN), where pilots slung quite the insults at the air traffic controller… while I think that was unprofessional, I don’t disagree with the sentiment, I think?
In this post:
San Diego air traffic controller loses patience with pilots
VASAviation has the air traffic control audio and a visualization of a recent busy morning at San Diego Airport.
Context is important here — San Diego has a single runway, and also has rather limited space for planes to taxi, so when the airport gets busy, getting all planes to and from the runways is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle for air traffic controllers. That’s especially tricky when planes land before their gate is ready, and they need somewhere to wait.
So this was one of those situations where the ground controller obviously had a lot of planes that wanted to move, but limited ability to actually move them. Airline pilots are also always looking to move as soon as possible, and sometimes they want to remind air traffic controllers of their desire to move, follow up on progress, etc.
After the air traffic controller gave some other pilots taxi clearance, a United pilot wanted to follow up on their taxi clearance, and then the following interaction happened:
United pilot: “What about United 1069?”
Air traffic controller: “NO!”
United pilot: “Just curious for 1069, do we have a time to Chicago?”
Air traffic controller: “United 1069, I’ve got one taxiway, planes all over the place cause planes arrived too early with no gates. When there’s a slot to get you down there, cause whether you wait there or you’re number 14 waiting at the end, it makes no difference.”
United pilot: “All right, thank you.”
The situation got worse when a Southwest pilot then also wanted to follow up on taxi clearance:
Southwest pilot: “Push, for Southwest 3896, at 103.”
Air traffic controller: “No, there’s traffic inbound in the alley. I’ve been doing this 18 years. When it’s clear, I’ll call you back.”
Southwest pilot: “Yeah, he just came in the alley and he’s parking right now, for Southwest 3896.”
Air traffic controller: “Well, in about two minutes ask your ground crew to look towards the east and you will see the next company coming by.”
Southwest pilot: “Sounds like you need to be replaced.”
Air traffic controller: “Sounds like you have the attitude over there too, because I told you there’s traffic coming and you want to argue with me about it.”
Unknown pilot: “Go back to LaGuardia!”
You can listen to the entire audio for yourself below.
I understand the air traffic controller’s impatience, but…
I understand where the air traffic controller is coming from. I assume he’s on top of things, and he knows exactly what he has planned for each aircraft, to have everything moving as efficiently as possible. On a frequency where there’s barely a gap between transmissions, he doesn’t need pilots constantly following up on when they’re going to get clearance, when he’s processing everyone as quickly as he can.
At the same time, I’m not sure what he’s trying to accomplish with his tone, or with the way he lectures pilots. If you’re already stressed and overworked, spending time on frequency trying to angrily justify why you’re doing what you’re doing doesn’t seem very productive either.
He could just as easily answer these questions with “unable,” or a few words about how there’s more traffic coming. Admittedly some of the commentary from pilots is petty as well, about him needing to be replaced, or how he should go back to LaGuardia. That last one is at least sort of hilarious, and does remind me of the below interaction from last year.
Bottom line
A San Diego ground controller started to get rather angry at impatient airline pilots. The airport was very busy with limited ability to move planes, but he obviously wasn’t a fan of pilots following up on when they’d be cleared to depart.
However, rather than just telling them what they were requesting wasn’t possible, he did quite a bit of lecturing, and that wasn’t well received by pilots.
What do you make of this San Diego ATC interaction?
Perhaps you should talk to dementia-ridden Trump as to why this situation is happening?
Sounds like San Diego needs to update their airport. If its that busy its not just a turf war its dangerous.
No, not a stupid post. Relevant, interesting, and yes, generates its fair share of comments.
I'm former ATC. One colleague (liked the guy; hated his attitude and remedies) used the infamous "penalty box" (do you active ATC guys still do that?). Not to sound like a jerk, but I always strived to keep it even-tempered regardless of the issue/attitude. Just seamless professional courtesy and consistency. It tends to spread.
Some controllers still do that. Thankfully none where I work.
I disagree about the post, though. Our profession is bleeding- most of us are on 6 days a week, 10 hour days, and our pay has stagnated to such extremes that on an hourly basis, many flight attendants now do better pay-wise. I would point out that a SAN controller makes ~$82/hr MAX (someone there for 18 years might be around that), and the UA...
Some controllers still do that. Thankfully none where I work.
I disagree about the post, though. Our profession is bleeding- most of us are on 6 days a week, 10 hour days, and our pay has stagnated to such extremes that on an hourly basis, many flight attendants now do better pay-wise. I would point out that a SAN controller makes ~$82/hr MAX (someone there for 18 years might be around that), and the UA captain is making about $350/hr+. If any of those flight attendants onboard were in their 13th+ year, they were making ~$85/hr at the time this was happening.
Meanwhile, instead of advocating for better controller pay (which would help with recruitment and retention), the public seems to be increasingly crucifying us over inconsequential interactions. I mean did the recent LGA crash result from bickering? How about DCA? No, those things are/were a combination of shit staffing and fatigue, among other things. But by and large the public ignores that and fails to advocate for improvements on that front- instead choosing to micro-analayze things like prioritizing a 200 passenger heavy jet instead of a C680. (see Ben's last post on ATC related matters).
In other words, we need public advocacy, and these posts lead to public hostility. Ironically that very hostility is going to make things worse for controllers, and that impact may be passed on to the flying public.
The Southwest pilot was told he couldn't move yet because there was an inbound aircraft... He then smugly replies that the aircraft had already landed and was headed to a gate. Did he think ATC was claiming there was a non-existent aircraft on approach just to delay his flight? ATC's response to that was spot-on IMHO... If I were that controller, I would have been very tempted to tell that pilot the same thing, followed...
The Southwest pilot was told he couldn't move yet because there was an inbound aircraft... He then smugly replies that the aircraft had already landed and was headed to a gate. Did he think ATC was claiming there was a non-existent aircraft on approach just to delay his flight? ATC's response to that was spot-on IMHO... If I were that controller, I would have been very tempted to tell that pilot the same thing, followed by, "get comfy, you're gonna be here for a while... That ignorant comment just got you moved to the back of the line."
Very unprofessional comment by Southwest pilot...."you need to be replaced"....,why just because Southwest pilot didn't immediately get what he wanted!
Pilots need to remember they are only responsible for one aircraft....overworked ATC have dozens!
Agreed. I work in Airport Operations for an airport operator- I overhear conversations like this all the time. Pilots tend to think they’re the only flights out there and that ATC exists to kiss their ass. Guess what? THEY DONT. They’re there for safety, and if there’s no room there’s no room- so shut up and have some common sense and patience you ego centric glorified bus drivers. I agree sometimes ATC can be rude- but in this case the pilots are way out of line.
I'm not a pilot or ATC. Listening to this radio chatter proves that the airlines only concern is money. Controllers are simply overwhelmed. The increase in traffic on the same outdated airports is crazy, everyone has to be there now. Pilots are impatient, passengers are impatient and the airlines continue to push for more flights ($) No one seems to give a s**t until the dam breaks. I hope like hell they come to their senses before catastrophic failure
ATC is not a profession compatible with a long life or even a sound night's sleep.
not even for a doc who used to work in a NYC hospital ER
BOTH of "You Needs To Be Replaced"
BOTH are OBSOLETE
Uh, what?
Eskimo is living this weird alternate reality where pilots and controllers can both immediately be replaced by AI.
He's basically arguing they have no value to society and pose a threat to passengers, but he is incapable of identifying a specific system available to replace them (because despite his rants, none currently exists).
Perhaps he is a failed/washed out pilot/controller himself trying to bring others down with him.
Your endless loop is stupid. But, you know that. At least you're not as long-winded as your ilk.
I can’t find anything on the VAS video that tells what date this happened. Last week, last month, or last year? And neither the video nor this post reports what time of day this is happening.
Southwest 3896 has a departure time of 6:20am, SAN to BWI, and a miserable record of leaving on time in recent days. Meanwhile, United 1069 is a 6:40am flight, SAN to ORD. It likes to leave the gate...
I can’t find anything on the VAS video that tells what date this happened. Last week, last month, or last year? And neither the video nor this post reports what time of day this is happening.
Southwest 3896 has a departure time of 6:20am, SAN to BWI, and a miserable record of leaving on time in recent days. Meanwhile, United 1069 is a 6:40am flight, SAN to ORD. It likes to leave the gate a few minutes early. Was the controller at the end of a shift, while pilots were just starting their day? One source says typical ATC shifts end at 7am.
On this Saturday morning, FlightAware shows 20 departures from SAN scheduled from 6:15am to 6:44am. At about the same time, there are two flights arriving from Honolulu, and two flights arriving from UPS and FedEx hubs. Is this physically possible? Why aren’t slots metered so not everyone leaves at once?
There is/used to be a 6:30 am curfew at SAN to protect the residents in the neighborhoods west of the field. Departures have always been crowded at this time and some flights have earlier published departure times to try to get in front of the line that forms on the taxiway. At 6:30:00 the queue starts to move but it can take awhile to get the early bank cleared
So the real story here is, "What happens at the busiest single-runway airport in the country with a curfew, when morning rush hour begins." Was the controller at the end of his shift? And does he know that this happens every morning, because too many planes are squeezing through the self-inflicted bottleneck?
I'd say he was at the end of his rope. He was unprofessional. Do you blame him? I don't.
Too many airplanes , too many passengers , too many fares and fee increases , too much executive compensation , too much refusal for airlines to pay their fair share for ATC infrastructure .
By the way , San Diego is a small airport for all that traffic .
And only has one runway, and no where to expand, but… it does have a decent Chase Sapphire lounge, so…
No where to expand? Then shut it down and build it somewhere else? This is a disaster just waiting to happen.
And where near SAN would you build this new mythical airport, Joyce?
Interesting post, Ben. (Apparently, we're now suppose to add posts that add nothing but relay our interest in the topic.)
According to pilots over on another forum this controller is quite well known, they allege he is on the spectrum however very good at his job until questioned when he immediately takes offence.
most importantly he is "very good at his job"
The unprofessionalism and animosity are going to cause accidents and cost lives someday.
A step-up from the ‘meow-ing’ going on earlier this year… /s
Stupid post Ben.
How so?
Go back to LaGuardia ....BURN!
Happily. The new LGA is lovely. Literally one of the best airports in the US, these days. 2010s me wouldn’t have believed it either.