Just when I thought one of my least favorite lounges in the US couldn’t get any worse…
This afternoon I was at JFK before my 5PM Saudia flight from New York to Riyadh. Saudia uses the Korean Air Lounge for their premium passengers at JFK. Best I could tell Saudia actually uses the first class section for all their premium passengers, which seems generous on the surface.
I’ve reviewed the Korean Air Lounge JFK before, and if you’re a longtime reader, you may remember the issue I had with them. I’d hardly consider myself a social justice warrior, or anything, but the lounge had a ridiculous Wi-Fi network filter. Going to websites like HRC or GLAAD returned the following message:
“The web page is blocked because it violates network policy.
Reason: Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual – Web pages that cater to or discuss the gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender lifestyle.”
God forbid that in 2014 (at the time) a US airline lounge lets guests access websites that “cater to the gay lifestyle!” Fortunately they’ve fixed that in the meantime.
And then there was my experience today…
This has to be one of the only international first class lounges I’ve been to that serves water in ration cups. I may have had a bit too much water, given the novelty of these to me (sorry, I was trying to figure out the ideal way to drink from these cups), and needed to pee.
There are gender segregated bathrooms in the first class section of the lounge, and they’re the types of bathrooms that only one person can use at a time.
I checked the men’s bathroom and it was locked. I checked again 10 minutes later and someone was still in it. I checked 10 minutes later and someone was still in there. Lord have mercy.
At that point I went to reception and asked the Korean Air associate if I could use the business class bathroom, and she pointed me in that direction. When I got into the men’s bathroom there were two guys with hard hats blocking the urinal, as they were taking the door off one of the stalls. Um, what the heck? This didn’t look like a short process, so I left.
I checked the nearby shower rooms, and they were also locked.
I really had to pee, so I did something I don’t think I’ve ever done before, but that I don’t see an issue with — I decided to use the women’s bathroom in the first class lounge. Let me say that first of all I think the concept of gender segregated bathrooms is unnecessary, but beyond that, this was a bathroom that only one person could use at a time. To top it all off, there were no women in the first class section of the lounge.
I did my business (and made sure to aim well), washed my hands, and emerged from the bathroom.
As I walked out of the bathroom the Korean Air agent literally yelled at me and said “what are you doing?!?!? You can’t do that!”
“The men’s bathroom has been occupied for 20 minutes, there was construction in the other bathroom, and I had to use the bathroom.”
“No, you can’t do this, you have to wait.”
At this point I just sort of looked at her in disbelief, because I wasn’t sure what to make of this. Like, lady, have you ever been on a plane before? Somehow we all manage to get along just fine sharing bathrooms.
She called over her colleague and said something to her in Korean, and then that lady ran off to the women’s bathroom. She returned a few moments later and gave her the “clear.” Are you freaking kidding me?!
I assume she was sent there to make sure I didn’t plant cameras in there or get off all over the toilet seat to the thought of being in a women’s bathroom, or something.
On top of that she got on the phone. I didn’t hear all of her conversation, but heard her say “security.”
At this point I’m standing there wth my jaw halfway to the floor in disbelief at this situation. I just said “wow, this is unbelievable” to her, grabbed my bags, and left.
I’m curious what you guys make of this. Was I completely crossing the line by using a one-person women’s bathroom in a lounge with no women after the men’s bathroom was occupied for 20+ minutes, while the practical alternative was under construction?
This is the reason I dont ride Korean air.
Haha its interesting there are 2 comments from "Koreans" "educated overseas" who think its ok to be racist against to Korean's because they are Koreans. Maybe if you opened up and learned about your culture first, you wouldn't sound so bigoted
You should have pissed on the floor in the room where the people were blocking the urinal, then left. Let them deal with the problem.
It's a none item although personally I've would have gone out to the terminal bathrooms after the first 10 min hold. I just don't feel comfortable using the women's bathroom as a 6'-5" black guy.....people tend to have a higher freakout capacity.
I would have done the same. And I've done so many times, as the ladies' queue is always frustratingly long!
You Naughty Boy .......
I don't mind the ladies using the gent's if they remember to put the toilet seat up again afterwards, just like I respect to put it down again in theirs. End off.
when in rome, do as the roman's do.
get your sjw intolerance outta here. and liberals still wonder why they lost in november LMAO
I don't usually "bite" on political comments, but from your spelling, punctuation, and grammar, it seems like you could have benefitted from a liberal education...Maybe English is your third language; if so, I apologize.
I had the same experience at a Tim Horton's donut shop in Canada. There were two one-person bathrooms segregated by gender, and the men's was occupied. There was no one else around so I used the women's. When I opened the door a woman was standing there waiting and she said "that's the ladies room!" I explained that the men's room had been (and still was) occupied. She said "that doesn't matter!" But I ignored...
I had the same experience at a Tim Horton's donut shop in Canada. There were two one-person bathrooms segregated by gender, and the men's was occupied. There was no one else around so I used the women's. When I opened the door a woman was standing there waiting and she said "that's the ladies room!" I explained that the men's room had been (and still was) occupied. She said "that doesn't matter!" But I ignored her and left. Ever since then I've bought my coffee at Starbucks where the one-person bathrooms are unisex, and nobody cares. It shows the difference in the quality of the clientele at the very least...
Thank you "Seamus" . . . after reading a multitude of comments about Lucky's experience the link you provided to the Curb Your Enthusiasm segment was a welcome relief. A good laugh was necessary after poring through these comments.
I would have done the same my friend!!!
and yes, KAL "lounges" are a big joke in the states. Stale nachos, salsa, and cheapo drinks---el cheapo. Perhaps, cultural? Thank you.
who cares about the lgbt pyt stuff. you're there for the aircraft travel not looking up that sort of stuff. also, check with the attendants before you use the female toilets. thanks!
Make a complaint to Korean Air with time and date when it happened so they can figure out who was in charge at the time. I'm sorry it had to happen to you. I am so ashamed as a Korean and I hate the mentality of local Koreans(I have been educated in the West much of my formative years and I find myself not liking local Koreans - they are too.....STIFF).
Korean women are very clean, esp. In their fem hygiene. It's a cultural thing. "Get your hairy male arse off that toilet".... something around those lines lol
When I read the title, I just assumed you were just going to complain about how you're not allowed to bend the rules - I was not wrong. As you so aptly ascertained in your post, gender segregation is in place for many reasons, one of which is to avoid perverts from planting cameras etc. Given that Korea/Japan/china have relatively higher rates of people planting cameras in bathrooms, it would seem like a completely justifiable...
When I read the title, I just assumed you were just going to complain about how you're not allowed to bend the rules - I was not wrong. As you so aptly ascertained in your post, gender segregation is in place for many reasons, one of which is to avoid perverts from planting cameras etc. Given that Korea/Japan/china have relatively higher rates of people planting cameras in bathrooms, it would seem like a completely justifiable reaction. It would freak me out if I saw a man leave the womans bah You could have just asked the men the hard hats to move, or if you were that desperate, you could have left the lounge (as you indeed did shortly after your encounter)
This tale MUST be true! Normal folks could not make it up even if they tried! Further, I think your solution was ideal and I would have done the same thing. In fact, I've done so more than once, although not in a Korean establishment. Gawd!!
File a lawsuit against them in NYC court citing the city's bathroom law
Since people here seem so concerned about respecting local custom then surely no objections to enforcing NYC local customs
"WELL THEN YOU WAIT!" - Larry David, Curb Your Enthusiasm
https://youtu.be/mPzjbXgaVOk
If the bathroom was marked unisex, no problem.
It wasn't. You're in their space. You should have asked to use it first.
If they said no, you should have used a bathroom in the terminal.
If you're that important and rich, then fly private. If not, deal with the rules.
Truly unbelievable how ridiculous many of the comments here are. A premium customer should not have to leave the lounge and go to a public restroom while there is an open restroom in the lounge. Even when I don't have time to spend in a lounge, I will go in to use the restroom instead of the public ones. I would have done the same thing without thinking twice.
Lucky
I don't agree with you on this one. I think if you explained the situation and simply asked the receptionist if you could use woman's bathroom, this could have been avoided. I would have either asked first or left the lounge to use the other bathroom. I feel bad though how you were treated by the receptionist. As much as I respect those people who are okay with unisex bathrooms, I'm sure there...
Lucky
I don't agree with you on this one. I think if you explained the situation and simply asked the receptionist if you could use woman's bathroom, this could have been avoided. I would have either asked first or left the lounge to use the other bathroom. I feel bad though how you were treated by the receptionist. As much as I respect those people who are okay with unisex bathrooms, I'm sure there are people like me out there who don't like those and try to avoid as much as possible. Maybe it is a cultural difference or maybe not. I think I would still feel uncomfortable if I see a guy coming out of woman's bathroom in AA lounge.
I think it's a grey area as evidenced by the replies you're getting on this blog and more importantly by the fact that an employee in the lounge actually went berserk and challenged you.It's definitely not clear cut.
I've used the business class Priority Pass side of the T1 longe and was thoroughly disappointed with it and the service of the agents. The difference in service between Korean Air lounges in the US and ROK is amazing. Even the AF lounge at T1 is better. Korean Air's motto should be "Excellence in flight...Ground service sucks."
Someone mentioned here but to elaborate - there has been a large-scale sort of scandal regarding installation of secret cameras in ladies restroom in rather large numbers and uploading those videos. So it is not unusual for the staff to be sensitive to males entering femle restrooms in Korea (and Korea is quite strict on division between male and female restrooms even if it is single occupancy)
I think they probably needed security to...
Someone mentioned here but to elaborate - there has been a large-scale sort of scandal regarding installation of secret cameras in ladies restroom in rather large numbers and uploading those videos. So it is not unusual for the staff to be sensitive to males entering femle restrooms in Korea (and Korea is quite strict on division between male and female restrooms even if it is single occupancy)
I think they probably needed security to search for potential secret cameras(?) - police agency in Korea have actually acquired devices for detecting cameras to search for those hidden cameras.
"Ben if someone from the Business class lounge had come to use the First Class bathroom because the Business Class lounge was under construction or if someone on the plane had come to use the First Class bathroom because there was a line at the economy bathroom, what would have been your reaction?"
He would have thrown the hissiest hissy fit that ever hissy fitted, I guess.
@Kieran
Ooh, share some more tea, if you can. Definitely sounds interesting.
"Maybe what’s not so obvious is that Lucky’s job is to report on his travel experiences." That's a bizzare justification if I ever heard one, to excuse acting like an entitled jerk. A trip to the bathroom may be a trip, but it certainly doesn't warrant all this. Using that logic, Lucky could set off fire alarms in the airport, walk onto the tarmac, try to access restricted areas, "just to report on the experience",...
"Maybe what’s not so obvious is that Lucky’s job is to report on his travel experiences." That's a bizzare justification if I ever heard one, to excuse acting like an entitled jerk. A trip to the bathroom may be a trip, but it certainly doesn't warrant all this. Using that logic, Lucky could set off fire alarms in the airport, walk onto the tarmac, try to access restricted areas, "just to report on the experience", because you can claim as all those took place at an airport, it's just "part of the job".
These types of "reports" by Lucky have zero to do aviation trip reports, and just like previous "what do you guys think" articles (which are all about Lucky using this blog to attack those who miff him, under the thinly disguised pretext of "opening it up for discussion"), are about petty revenge (usually when Lucky is in the wrong, but nonetheless, is having a tantrum).
Let's look back at few past tanties (some no longer are available, if the mob turns Lucky quickly removes the article lol), like the time Lucky wrote a series of full snark posts about the Royal Park Hotel (because he made a series of wrong assumptions, didn't bother to look things up for himself, but blamed the hotel and got shitty with their staff, and went on the attack about them here, for a problem of his own making), his snarky post at SAA because on a domestic flight with them he ignored instructions given during the safety brief, and continued to use his phone during take off, or his snarky post about having been made to wait at LAX because his dad was flippant/rude to an immigration official (which I think everyone understands is a bad idea) to name just a few from memory.
I enjoy the actual travel report stuff here on OMAAT, but these sort of thinly veiled revenge attacks on folks/organisations he thinks have "wronged him" really lower the tone (and let's not even mention the vanity/fantasy stuff like getting offers of a quick wristy from cabin crew, etc *ugh*) - you don't encounter this sort of tabiold crap at other professional travel blogger sites, so that Lucky gets doing these sort of posts is just a bit disappointing.
I would have just talked to the staff explaining the situation before using the female bathroom. They would not have been so shocked then. As easy as that.
I would be surprised to see a male coming out of a female bathroom or vice versa. It is not publicly acceptable in most countries in the world.
It is the staff's duty and responsibility to make sure safety policies are followed, and they can...
I would have just talked to the staff explaining the situation before using the female bathroom. They would not have been so shocked then. As easy as that.
I would be surprised to see a male coming out of a female bathroom or vice versa. It is not publicly acceptable in most countries in the world.
It is the staff's duty and responsibility to make sure safety policies are followed, and they can very much be held accountable for ill-doings. I don't think they overreacted. You could have used the bathroom, don't see why you just didn't warn them before doing so.
Wow ! All these comments ! Lucky left the lounge BEFORE security got there.
That says he knew he was wrong and wanted to get OUTTA HERE quick. Self serving and narcissistic.
All the comments from women about using a men's bathroom are mute. No big deal. No women are sneaking into men's rooms for assault or rape.
But the father of any young daughter would have slapped Lucky silly to go...
Wow ! All these comments ! Lucky left the lounge BEFORE security got there.
That says he knew he was wrong and wanted to get OUTTA HERE quick. Self serving and narcissistic.
All the comments from women about using a men's bathroom are mute. No big deal. No women are sneaking into men's rooms for assault or rape.
But the father of any young daughter would have slapped Lucky silly to go into the women's bathroom and see his daughter dressing. That is why the agent sent another woman into the lounge to check---if any girl was there inside.
"But there was no women in the lounge"----childish statement. No. 1---one doesn't know that and the lounge is not your property. People have been killed needlessly when women are fearful of attack. Why is common sense such an uncommon virtue?
All these supposedly smart comments on unisex bathrooms on airplanes-----they are public bathrooms and they are for one person at a time and everyone can see who goes into the bathroom, especially any parent watching their child.
So yes, men go to these bathrooms but it is not like a women's bathroom in a lounge. Better to learn these things when young than to wait until much older and suffer as a result.
As you were a first class passenger they should have had a proper customer service mind. Let you do what you needed to do and call the cleaner to come in to tidy up. They should have never ever have challenged you. #Fail
Given the circumstances you identified (wait time, construction, no other females, etc) I would submit a formal complaint to the airline and please keep us posted with what, if any, response you get back from them. As a premium flying passenger this is pretty pathetic service.
As an older person who has to deal with more urgent urges these days, I am now sick and tired of corporations, organizations, locations who do not figure these things out beforehand.
Change the damn signs to unisex, provide more facilities, make more provisions. Post signs indicating where other toilets are located. A new toilet may be expensive; a sign indicating alternatives is not.
A one person bathroom is gender-safe enough isn't it?...
As an older person who has to deal with more urgent urges these days, I am now sick and tired of corporations, organizations, locations who do not figure these things out beforehand.
Change the damn signs to unisex, provide more facilities, make more provisions. Post signs indicating where other toilets are located. A new toilet may be expensive; a sign indicating alternatives is not.
A one person bathroom is gender-safe enough isn't it? And before you bring it up, yes, I have preferences, too, but running around desperately or peeing on myself are not among them.
All you corporations, recognize that having an adequate number of toilets is not a matter of luxuries or optional resources, they are providing for physical needs.
Airlines are now making a lot of money; there is no excuse whatsoever for degrading customers with these conditions.
Most states -- including New York -- have legislated requirements for businesses to provide adequate toilet facilities (since the government will not do so.) However, these laws, like fire codes are too often unenforced.
Ted,
I also am an "older person" and I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. These rules, laws, codes, should/must be enforced, and unfortunately, it's up to us to ensure that this happens. If I can't find an empty restroom in a biz/first airline lounge, sorry, I'm going to go off by myself and pee in a glass. I have to think about the bowel action.
@John sez: "Otherwise, based on what I’ve read above, Lucky was lucky he wasn’t detained." LOL. Detained for answering an urgent "call of nature"? Way over the top...!
This what you need to do in the future because the brouhaha here is simply that the lounge agent felt slighted; her authority was not recognized.
If you ever similarly run out of options within a lounge, just go back to the desk and let the...
@John sez: "Otherwise, based on what I’ve read above, Lucky was lucky he wasn’t detained." LOL. Detained for answering an urgent "call of nature"? Way over the top...!
This what you need to do in the future because the brouhaha here is simply that the lounge agent felt slighted; her authority was not recognized.
If you ever similarly run out of options within a lounge, just go back to the desk and let the agent know that all other WCs are not available but you absolutely "must go", could you use the ladies' (men's)? They won't offer to unzip your trousers and hold it for you, but I am 100% sure that you will be granted permission...I know because it is what I have and would have done, even though I think that the agent's reaction here was unnecessary and nonsensical...
@John
stop acting like Korea is some kind of strange land. We understand there are bathroom emergencies too.
"It's ok to go to the opposite sex bathroom in the US, but Korea isn't your country!!!" Like what is that. Lucky should've just communicated better and people would've understood. Going to the bathroom is pretty universal in Korea too, dumbass.
I can't believe how many "privileged" folks there are here who think that rules don't apply to them. Just because it's OK with you in your country, or you have gotten away with it before doesn't make it right.
If the article was about the poor layout of the lounge, or how they were handling the lack of facilities well due to the renovation, that would be fine. But Lucky's action did cross the...
I can't believe how many "privileged" folks there are here who think that rules don't apply to them. Just because it's OK with you in your country, or you have gotten away with it before doesn't make it right.
If the article was about the poor layout of the lounge, or how they were handling the lack of facilities well due to the renovation, that would be fine. But Lucky's action did cross the line as far as I'm concerned.
Yes - there were extenuating reasons why Lucky wanted to use the ladies bathroom but he could have asked one of the staff first. Why was that not considered? Why did he think that they would have refused? Other folks have offered more options but it seems that Lucky thinks he's entitled to his own set of rules.
If he had been refused access to the bathroom after his request, then it would have been an actual outrage that should be reported. Otherwise, based on what I've read above, Lucky was lucky he wasn't detained.
@Jessica sez: "Men are gross" but she's married to one. How do you spell 'prima donna' ;-)
You should have played the transgender card and seen what would have happened.
I have to completely disagree. I like the idea of gender segregated bathrooms as a young(ish) female. In fact, my husband uses a different bathroom in our house for everything than mine. Men are gross. I don't like the idea of sharing bathrooms. Plus we need a place to go to freshen up or gossip with girlfriends. I like having separate spaces.
The prohibition on LGBT websites is far more of a concern to me than the idiot who yelled at you about peeing in the women's rest room. (Next time, you could use a large wine glass and go (discretely) in the corner). Was this website restriction a Korean thing, a Saudi thing, or tea party thing? I suppose the lounge is private and they can do what they want, but I would find out who's...
The prohibition on LGBT websites is far more of a concern to me than the idiot who yelled at you about peeing in the women's rest room. (Next time, you could use a large wine glass and go (discretely) in the corner). Was this website restriction a Korean thing, a Saudi thing, or tea party thing? I suppose the lounge is private and they can do what they want, but I would find out who's responsible, and then, impose a lifetime boycott. There are just too many choices, FF miles or not, to even participate in much less subsidize, something that's homophobic, sexist, or racist.
"The only thing I can think of against what you did, is that sometimes, women need a “safe space” and in many cases, the bathroom is the only refuge a woman has to escape unwanted male attention" LOL! Heather just jumped the SJW shark with this one!
Now I know why the Korean Air check in agent on my recent JFK flight to Seoul in business suggested I may care to use the Air France lounge. The Korean lounge was dark, filled to capacity and not a place where one would want to willingly wait. As for the non-incident, of course you did the right thing. You could have feigned distraction or cluelessness.
Having just shouted at a group of German/Russian women at a men's disabled toilet in a museum in Russia - because the queues were too long - I hear you. I don't think you did wrong. My only caveat - is that maybe you should have told them that is what you were doing before taking action. I am not sure of the soundness of my advice, but knowing that you err on the side of caution and politeness - that is all I can offer.
Korean culture is idiotic at best. Note to anyone who wants to call the R card: I am Korean-American. Get off it.
I'm more familiar with Asiana, but I can only assume both airlines suffer from the same inane cultural problems.
I love the bi bim bap on OZ, but I've sworn off flying with them (former OZ Diamond here). Their policies create unnecessary busywork and stress for passengers, their staff are useless...
Korean culture is idiotic at best. Note to anyone who wants to call the R card: I am Korean-American. Get off it.
I'm more familiar with Asiana, but I can only assume both airlines suffer from the same inane cultural problems.
I love the bi bim bap on OZ, but I've sworn off flying with them (former OZ Diamond here). Their policies create unnecessary busywork and stress for passengers, their staff are useless when problems arise, and their pilots suffer from a dangerous lack of proficiency (source: U.S. flight instructor recruited to OZ).
i wonder about the hard hat people.
@Travli The problem is they have no idea what he was doing in there because he didn't ask beforehand. For all they know he is some sort of pervert planting cameras in there.
I'm not sure why gay websites are blocked in a lounge in the United States, especially in New York. In terms of using the woman's bathroom maybe you could have simply asked staff for permission or just used the public one? Of course, there are security concerns with some man going into a woman's restroom and that is going to raise an issue.
I would have done the same and then demanded to speak to the ladies supervisor or manager after she yelled at you like that. Some of the people who run these lounges act as if they are doing us a favor by being there and providing a service. No concept of customer service or common sense.
You were 100% correct!! And the blocked website? Corporate prejudice/discrimination at its worst. Thanks very much for posting this!
I disagree with the person who said you should have checked first because K A was the host and you were the guest. You were the customer and they were the vendor. I have done this one more than one occasion. Needs must
Ben if someone from the Business class lounge had come to use the First Class bathroom because the Business Class lounge was under construction or if someone on the plane had come to use the First Class bathroom because there was a line at the economy bathroom, what would have been your reaction?
Flight and lounge attendants are trained to ensure that only those who are privileged to use a bathroom get to use it.
A single occupant bathroom with a locking door is fair game.
Having a ladies bathroom is clearly just a courtesy to the ladies so they have an opportunity to deal with less of the careless mess and grime of a men's room.
Seems pompous to dissuade someone who needs to go from using a convenient and available location.
no excuses...u should have stepped outside the lounge and used a restroom. for those of you who have used the other gender restroom, it is certainly not cool....anyone could have sued the lounge management for not ensuring privacy and safety. they lounge staff do not know you from the next person...who knows, you would have planted a camera. you shud be glad they did not call the cops...
how can you expect a place where a presidential candidate and then the president said " he dislike/ hate gay people"?
Just be thankful that Ms Cho is in jail, she'd have your nuts on a plate in nut rage Mk 2.
"You should have gone to a men's room outside the lounge..."
I kept thinking this was pretty obvious. Maybe what's not so obvious is that Lucky's job is to report on his travel experiences. So it's kind of like reality TV. Of course the participants can leave the set whenever they want - but then there wouldn't be a show. Lucky needs to follow incidents like this through to their logical end, both to report...
"You should have gone to a men's room outside the lounge..."
I kept thinking this was pretty obvious. Maybe what's not so obvious is that Lucky's job is to report on his travel experiences. So it's kind of like reality TV. Of course the participants can leave the set whenever they want - but then there wouldn't be a show. Lucky needs to follow incidents like this through to their logical end, both to report accurately on what it's like to be in that experience and also in order to have something interesting to write about.
(Someone having to pee and not finding a bathroom isn't interesting, you say? Well, the fact that there are dozens of comments suggests otherwise... as does the fact that you've read all the way down to this one!)
No, you did nothing wrong. If it's a solo WC, the gender of the person using it should not matter. I have done the same thing in the past.
I wonder how much different the comments here would be, if instead of women's bathrooms, we were talking about disabled parking spots.
Lucky was in a hurry, and he just needed to pop in and pick up his drycleaning - and nobody was using that disabled parking bay at the time, and well hell, other people who aren't disabled do park in those spots - so why shouldn't Lucky. And how dare a disabled person...
I wonder how much different the comments here would be, if instead of women's bathrooms, we were talking about disabled parking spots.
Lucky was in a hurry, and he just needed to pop in and pick up his drycleaning - and nobody was using that disabled parking bay at the time, and well hell, other people who aren't disabled do park in those spots - so why shouldn't Lucky. And how dare a disabled person who saw Lucky in that bay when I he came out, told him off, don't they realise it's just a parking spot when you cut through it all...
I mean that scenario is really no different from this - you can justify just about anything with such excuses.
" Yes, you should have asked first or gone to a men’s restroom outside the lounge. And yes, the attendant should have been more discreet, but she was just doing her job to make sure everything is in order for the comfort of all their guests."
^^This.
Well since you were not polite and criticized people without even admitting you were wrong to begin with, It tells how small you are as a human being and self-centered jerk...You are putting people down because others don't agree with your sexual orientation? Really! Because they don't allow you to connect to a gay website and you are upset. Really!? I guess all those parents are wrong that they don't allow their kids to go...
Well since you were not polite and criticized people without even admitting you were wrong to begin with, It tells how small you are as a human being and self-centered jerk...You are putting people down because others don't agree with your sexual orientation? Really! Because they don't allow you to connect to a gay website and you are upset. Really!? I guess all those parents are wrong that they don't allow their kids to go on porn sites. Now you are using a female washroom without even asking and explaining first and you claimed you had all the right to do that. You should apologize!
Wow - some of these comments are laughable, ignorant and culturally insensitive - "many middle aged Korean men are creeps" (not true) , "sh*# on the floor" (just NO). Yes, you should have asked first or gone to a men's restroom outside the lounge. And yes, the attendant should have been more discreet, but she was just doing her job to make sure everything is in order for the comfort of all their guests.
Even if it had been several cubicles, I would have still used the toilet. Why are Americans so uptight about who uses which toilet? You should have said something along the lines of "would you rather I went on the floor" and see what they say
Asian logic at its finest
I'm saddened that Lucky taking a whiz gathers more comments than Lucky announcing his engagement. Welcome to Kardashistan.
Man, what a weird situation.The Korean Air lady should have just let it be. You can't go back in time and un-go in the ladies bathroom, you've been there and left it already. Yelling at you achieves nothing. Maybe a quiet word saying to use the main terminal men's bathroom next time, but in any case, you needed to pee and used the available facilities.
Wow so much panicky anxiety over gender crossing, huh? You were more than right to use that bathroom. Urgent, necessary symbolic intervention on top of it being a practicality. I'd file a formal complaint.
What have the gay keyword stuff todo with the issue? Is it like oh I am a little poor gay please understand me? It's RIDICULOUS to use a woman toilet. Why not ask the stuff before? And than the stuff is only doing there stuff Mr. Poor Firet Class Gay
I would have gone to the front desk at the Lounge, and ask for one of the women to check why the men's rooms were not open after waiting 20 minutes, and then, ask for the people in charg to allow me to use the women's bathroom for the next 2 minutes...problem would have been solved..! ( put the monkey on their back )
OMG. You people are retarded. First.... Rules are rules. They are meant to be followed. Second. There have been many instances of people installing spy cams in the ladies room. This was why a second person was probably called to check if the ladies room was clear. Third...hence the rule to keep men and women in their respective rest rooms.
Gotta say...I'm really enjoying reading the comments to this story! Fascinating how people can have vastly different opinions on a simple situation.
Point one - I have a disability and at times do not get much notice of needing the bathroom. Obviously I would use a gents bathroom if possible, but if not I would use female. I would expect to not have to point out my disability and ask permission, but would expect employees to see that common sense was being used if there was no gents available. To have been told off and have had...
Point one - I have a disability and at times do not get much notice of needing the bathroom. Obviously I would use a gents bathroom if possible, but if not I would use female. I would expect to not have to point out my disability and ask permission, but would expect employees to see that common sense was being used if there was no gents available. To have been told off and have had to have highlighted my disability would have been tantamount to discrimination. The employees would not have known if you had or did not have a disability, but would have seen the gents could not be used. Point two - you are in NYC, so the law there would apply. Point three - you are a first class passenger, you pay for first class service and first class comfort - having to go out into the main terminal is an inconvenience you do not pay for. You are totally not in the wrong here.
I think maybe slightly out of line but what gets me super annoyed is that nobody bats an eye when a woman uses an men's bathroom. I have seen women using men's bathrooms with multiple urinals and stalls at concerts or music festivals when women's bathrooms had a wait. Imagine the reaction a man gets walking into a woman's bathroom
@Hamanaka, and what "local culture," would that be, pray tell? That of Queens, NY, where the KAL Lounge is located?
I am a woman and I support your decision!
I have done that as well, but in this criminalized day and age one risks prison time and permanently being on a sex offender list (as in one can not live virtually anywhere nor work anywhere)
Wow lots of comments on this post so you won, I guess. I would have been tempted to do the same but would have likely went into the terminal. To me having nice lounge toilets is one of the main benefits of lounge access. Too bad IAH doesn't get this in some cases.
On the other hand why would you want to return to a lounge that insults you by censoring adult content out...
Wow lots of comments on this post so you won, I guess. I would have been tempted to do the same but would have likely went into the terminal. To me having nice lounge toilets is one of the main benefits of lounge access. Too bad IAH doesn't get this in some cases.
On the other hand why would you want to return to a lounge that insults you by censoring adult content out of it's WiFi access or flying an airline that could have you arrested in Riyadh for your life style choices. It may be that gender and restrooms are the least of the issue. All that being said it's a bit of an over reaction by the lounge staff. Then again Korea does have different cultural rules and areas of dishonor.
Yes, you were out of line. You can sometimes come across as very privileged lucky. You know what I do when I get to a bathroom and there is a line? Wait... You just assume that since your a first class passenger you shouldn't have to wait for anything. The correct thing to do would be to wait, why? Your are in some one else's property and that's what they ask. Not everything is a...
Yes, you were out of line. You can sometimes come across as very privileged lucky. You know what I do when I get to a bathroom and there is a line? Wait... You just assume that since your a first class passenger you shouldn't have to wait for anything. The correct thing to do would be to wait, why? Your are in some one else's property and that's what they ask. Not everything is a result of you being Gay. Bathrooms are filthy at airports. If they let guys use girls bathrooms they would be nasty.
These are small minded, stupid, ignorant people that seek to control anything they can. I did this exact same thing once at a hotel in NYC in the middle of the night and got a similar reaction. Security was called. However, when I explained that there was no other venue to pee - and a friend actually stood outside to make sure no woman entered while I was there - security laughed it off and...
These are small minded, stupid, ignorant people that seek to control anything they can. I did this exact same thing once at a hotel in NYC in the middle of the night and got a similar reaction. Security was called. However, when I explained that there was no other venue to pee - and a friend actually stood outside to make sure no woman entered while I was there - security laughed it off and all was fine. Isn't this the airline that has the same seats for first and business class?
I've gone into the women's bathroom many times. Apart from an odd look here and there I didn't get much.
I think this can be best summed up as either you are a person who accepts there are rules in life, that you may disagree with, but still follow OR you are a person who doesn't think the rules apply to them, and that ignoring them, because they don't suit you, is always an option.
Have to raise an eyebrow that this article (and other non-trip report articles) has generated far more comments than the trip report ones - very tabloid.
Well I think this is something you only experience in the USA. I got almost arrested in the Cracker Barrel Old Country Store in Georgia once. All men’s rooms were occupied and I really need to go. My girlfriend checked the lady’s room and no one was in there. All the rooms were separate so no issue (you would think) I did my think and opened the door to the hallway. There were a lot...
Well I think this is something you only experience in the USA. I got almost arrested in the Cracker Barrel Old Country Store in Georgia once. All men’s rooms were occupied and I really need to go. My girlfriend checked the lady’s room and no one was in there. All the rooms were separate so no issue (you would think) I did my think and opened the door to the hallway. There were a lot of people and a lot of commotion. Somehow I just walked by and left. When exiting the restaurant the police arrived. Ehhh WTF. I never have experienced this before. I just can't understand the why this is such an issue......
While here in Seoul there are some shared unisex bathrooms, I think that the fact that she didn't know about it and that there is a real problem with bathroom cameras, it spooked her.
The government actually employs people to search women's bathrooms for cameras here. There is a whole campaign, safety system and everything.
Granted this is JFK and America, but perhaps just a glimpse into her mind?
You object to the rules of the various airlines and cultures that you frequent, but continue to give them your business? Nothing hypocritical there, at all.
If it's a single use toilet (as in, only one person at a time), then it's not at all a problem, and happens all over the world. What do they think will happen on board the plane?? Unisex toilets there.
@Mike No it was a Korean Air agent . Not a third party lounge attendant
Have they forgotten that they are in the service business?
Yes customers can do and say alot of crap but when something like this have happend after the fact then just give a warning, no need to be over the top.
What have happend to please sir dont use ladies room, i would be more than happy to find you an alternative.
Guess What?
The customer will remember it as something pleasent and not bad like now.
let me tell you that the lounge lady is probably on minimum wage and had zero interest in where you do your business. She is probably terrified she might lose her job, and is trying to stick to every policy and guideline.
Is that reason to yell at you? Of course not. Is it reason for you to act in complete disbelief? Only if you are that disconnected from the life realities of the...
let me tell you that the lounge lady is probably on minimum wage and had zero interest in where you do your business. She is probably terrified she might lose her job, and is trying to stick to every policy and guideline.
Is that reason to yell at you? Of course not. Is it reason for you to act in complete disbelief? Only if you are that disconnected from the life realities of the working classes.
You obviously knew that it was not the right thing to do, otherwise you wouldn't have tried the men's room so many times before. If you went to a member of staff and asked for the problem to be resolved, all this could have been avoided.
Life is funny and can take you places you never expected. Compassion and sympathy never hurt anyone.
Jeez this many comments on bathroom policies. Trump's pee pee tape would blow up twitter.
@Ben That's a cultural difference. The women were offended. Asian cultures can be rediculously formal and serious as if it were still midevil times.
Did security come over ? The security probably would have sided with you. You really did nothing wrong here.
I remember like 10 years ago the President of Korean Air was served peanuts in a bag on the ground in First Class and she ordered the plane to return...
@Ben That's a cultural difference. The women were offended. Asian cultures can be rediculously formal and serious as if it were still midevil times.
Did security come over ? The security probably would have sided with you. You really did nothing wrong here.
I remember like 10 years ago the President of Korean Air was served peanuts in a bag on the ground in First Class and she ordered the plane to return to the gate and had the flight attendants removed from the plane.
@Lucky/Ben, you should have yelled right back at her to get you another water! Lol
just ask first , it's disrespectful to women and their space.
Why u made everything so complicated ? They was Korean so just say GANGNAM style op op op !
With so many weirdos here in the states, I think the staff did her job right. We as americans need to show some respect to others. Don't just criticize others for our mistake. Respect yourself and follow the rules or at least tell the staff.
@Lucky
What do think about the many campuses that are shutting down opposition voices (i.e. very conservative or very not politically correct ideas) in what are supposed to be bastions of free speech and exchange of thought? Would you feel the same outrage as you did for Korean Air blocking LGBTQ sites?
You consistently (along with far too many people) keep stating that it's 2015 or the 21st century as an argument. Don't...
@Lucky
What do think about the many campuses that are shutting down opposition voices (i.e. very conservative or very not politically correct ideas) in what are supposed to be bastions of free speech and exchange of thought? Would you feel the same outrage as you did for Korean Air blocking LGBTQ sites?
You consistently (along with far too many people) keep stating that it's 2015 or the 21st century as an argument. Don't you realize that you are just like a mob shouting empty slogans to get people on your side?
There's no truth in what you are saying. China can easily say the same thing about their form of "democracy". Since it is 2017 their form of "democracy" is right and good and western style democracy is regressive and stupid.
You cannot argue for something if your worldview (presupposition) is inconsistent.
An appropriate start to a Saudia trip. Not that we can blame this on them, but it's appropriately ridiculous (as is the wifi bit).
Speed limits and stop signs are just suggestions.
File a complaint with NYC Human Rights Commission and include the URL of this post. They do NOT have the right to violate NYC law regarding bathrooms. Do NOT believe them for a second if they claim you are in an "international" or non-US space ... that would be total b.s. as the staff are obviously not stamped in/out by USCIS going to/from their workplace.
Pursue this as far as you can because it's...
File a complaint with NYC Human Rights Commission and include the URL of this post. They do NOT have the right to violate NYC law regarding bathrooms. Do NOT believe them for a second if they claim you are in an "international" or non-US space ... that would be total b.s. as the staff are obviously not stamped in/out by USCIS going to/from their workplace.
Pursue this as far as you can because it's b.s.
That said, can I assume most passengers in the lounge have US SIM cards?
Also Korean Air customer service should hear from you ... allowing ridiculous Saudi 'customs' to dictate policy in NYC is insane.
Honestly, if anyone had a valid reason to yell, it was you. The unannounced construction in the business class men's room was unacceptable.
@Hamanaka-- i'm assuming you were referring to korean local customs. but it's jfk...
In short, My personal view is before you enter the bathroom, you can let the staff knows that no men restrooms available and you really have to go. So either they find an available men's toilet for you and you cannot wait anymore OR let you use the women's privately. As there are other guests too including you, the staff on duty are responsible what's going on in the lounge. Therefore not everyone in the...
In short, My personal view is before you enter the bathroom, you can let the staff knows that no men restrooms available and you really have to go. So either they find an available men's toilet for you and you cannot wait anymore OR let you use the women's privately. As there are other guests too including you, the staff on duty are responsible what's going on in the lounge. Therefore not everyone in the lounge will be cool with what you do and able to accept that if they knew about it.
I'm going to use one if the main arguments here, just in a different form lol
"Well plenty of other people have peed in an alleyway, in fact I just peed in an alleyway today, so yeah everybody should just be free to pee on the street", and that my friends is how the world goes to piss lol
Anybody can be an arsehole, it's just whether you want to be or not :)
@AussieFlyer VA do have "reserved for our female guests" toilets on some mid to long haul aircraft (Coast to Coast A330s in Business, and some internationals in Business). But it's neither policed or enforced - I've never used them, but I have seen plenty of males come out of them - so it's more of a suggestion it seems. The only difference is that they have some female toiletries in the one "preferred for women" lav.
Done this many times, on 1-at-a-time rest rooms, and Im not even willing to wait 20 min or head to another location to check there. Its never been a problem.
And if Id be yelled to, Id be seriously pissed off. And it would show and it wouldbe heard.
If the lounge has non-specific gender bathrooms knock your socks off, but they didn't, and it's silly pretending they were. The situation doesn't change based on hypotheticals.
Ben, while I can understand your point of view (I'm a premium guest, I needed to go to the toilet, and I didn't want to leave the lounge to use the toilets outside nor wait for the men's inside, when a perfectly free bathroom was available), I can also understand the view of the Korean Lounge agents views (that bathroom is designated for women, and given the rise of cheap and easy covert electronic surveillance...
Ben, while I can understand your point of view (I'm a premium guest, I needed to go to the toilet, and I didn't want to leave the lounge to use the toilets outside nor wait for the men's inside, when a perfectly free bathroom was available), I can also understand the view of the Korean Lounge agents views (that bathroom is designated for women, and given the rise of cheap and easy covert electronic surveillance and that women have been violated this way previously, we don't want anyone but women accessing this space - a sensitivity I note is particularly strong in Asian countries).
I agree with others, I understand you're view "Well, hey, I'm the premium customer here, and I want my toilet damn it", but perhaps as a white male, you are not thinking of others here, such as women, particularly Asian women, who don't want males in that space (even if they are not in the lounge at the time).
You obviously didn't ask if you could beforehand, knowing that you were likely to be refused, so I think you would have been conscious of this. It's just you wanted what was convenient for you, and are being a little bit childish about it now (having a snark about it, because they complained, which you obviously were aware was a risk, since you specifically didn't ask first if you could just use the woman's bathroom instead).
I suspect if you did ask beforehand, the lounge agents would have opened up one of the shower rooms for you, so you could use a toilet in there, so it's a pity you didn't.
Even failing that, I think it's not unreasonable to just use one of the toilets outside the lounge (if you don't want to wait, but I suspect that's about snobbery about using the public facilities instead of private ones - but it was just to pee after all!)
I think it would have been better to take it on the chin, and just apologise, then come off as some sort of self entitlement jerk (which I'm afraid is the vibe here), having a huff. I like OMAAT on the whole, but this sort of stuff really lowers the tone (thankfully it seems it's a every now and then thing, rather than constant). This is the sort of stuff you normally find in a Trump tweet, let's keep that there.
What if you identified as a person who wanted to use that bathroom? It's complete overkill and someone just giving you a hard time because they think they are in an authoritative position.
I think the post is interesting if only to point out how insane the world is out there, the obstacles you run into just from the start of leaving the front door of your home. Traveling is overrated someone famous once said. That said, I think gender segregated restrooms/toilets have worked out fine for quite a long time and are needed - ergo my boycott of Target after it dropped gender toilets and a sudden...
I think the post is interesting if only to point out how insane the world is out there, the obstacles you run into just from the start of leaving the front door of your home. Traveling is overrated someone famous once said. That said, I think gender segregated restrooms/toilets have worked out fine for quite a long time and are needed - ergo my boycott of Target after it dropped gender toilets and a sudden rise in incidences of perverts claiming this or that gender to get their jollies. Sick. The 'search for a cause' SJW red (or is that really pin with ears) hat brigades are attempting to upend the social order where it's not needed, nor, IMHO, not wanted. The reaction from the Korean lounge matron fits the characterization of hysteria. But she is what America is becoming in the norm. Insanity prevails, Mao's Red Guards resurrected in the US of A. Welcome to your world.
"To top it all off, there were no women in the first class section of the lounge."
I'd like to make a joke about that being the real scandal, but I rarely see other women in first class lounges (other than in Hong Kong). So far better to have non-gendered facilities than to reserve 50% for maybe 15% of guests.
abused, a single shot bathroom is and should be unisex. Also it only goes one way, dude in women's bathroom == security and yelling, meanwhile I've banged a chick in a urinal in college (not super proud of that) but I've seen many a chick straddle a urinal when the women's line is super long and no one says anything. This is especially absurd if as you say there were no women in the lounge.
Womyn american coppers use men's bathrooms all the time. She dropped a dookey-I know because it smelled. Who cares, this is a,Eric's, a failed empire, do what ya want Broheem.
Don't know if others have mentioned this, but had they taken any action against you for using the women's single person bathroom they would have been in violation of NYC law (and, yes they still have to follow NYC law, but no, their restrictions on internet usage, as gross as they were, wouldn't violate the 1st Amendment since they are a private company). True, you weren't really using the bathroom with the intent NYC law...
Don't know if others have mentioned this, but had they taken any action against you for using the women's single person bathroom they would have been in violation of NYC law (and, yes they still have to follow NYC law, but no, their restrictions on internet usage, as gross as they were, wouldn't violate the 1st Amendment since they are a private company). True, you weren't really using the bathroom with the intent NYC law envisions since I assume you identify as male, but its still against the law. Also, gendered single-user bathrooms shouldn't really exist. I get the reason for gendered multi-user bathrooms (although that should go by how people identify, because I can guarantee you most trans people are only trying to get into the bathroom that best fits how they present to people who don't know that they are trans), but single-user bathrooms don't have any of the same issues. The only thing I can think of is that men might leave grosser bathroom situations for women, but any cleanliness discrepancies between men and women should be taken care of by the establishment keeping said bathroom clean if they are a halfway decent operation.
@Jason call me. ;-) Seriously, though, maybe I've been in oh-so-liberal Seattle too long, but nobody gives a sh** which restroom you use here.
Another power hungry airline staff who would trigger security at any whims possible.
Fortunately u left. Else who knows if you would be dragged out of the lounge.
So you were perturbed about an internet filter that didn't allow you to browse gay friendly sites but frequent countries where homosexuality is illegal?
While I understand your reasoning in using a single user bathroom marked for women, and I am not above using one marked for men..or as Susan said, in sporting venues where men have more faculties and the line for the ladies is ridiculously long , I wouldn't expect a relaxed...
So you were perturbed about an internet filter that didn't allow you to browse gay friendly sites but frequent countries where homosexuality is illegal?
While I understand your reasoning in using a single user bathroom marked for women, and I am not above using one marked for men..or as Susan said, in sporting venues where men have more faculties and the line for the ladies is ridiculously long , I wouldn't expect a relaxed attitude about gender neutral bathrooms or liberal accommodations about using a bathroom of choice by a company that is clearly very restrictive when it comes to personal liberties.
The long and short of it is, you got your hand smacked...big deal.
Just say you are "gender blinded". Like some people cannot identify colors you cannot identify the symbols on bathroom doors. Whatever!!!! It is a single bathroom so you did not embarrassed anyone by going inside. On the other hand as I mentioned many times in other posts after 9/11 and all the power airport workers were given to make our lives miserable once I step in an airport I do whatever I can to go...
Just say you are "gender blinded". Like some people cannot identify colors you cannot identify the symbols on bathroom doors. Whatever!!!! It is a single bathroom so you did not embarrassed anyone by going inside. On the other hand as I mentioned many times in other posts after 9/11 and all the power airport workers were given to make our lives miserable once I step in an airport I do whatever I can to go unnoticed so I don't have to deal with anyone having a tantrum and calling security on me.
If the situation is:
- single-occupancy bathrooms
- one men's, one women's
- no line for either
I'll try the men's room first, but if it's occupied, I don't even break my stride; I use the women's room. And there is nothing feminine about me, in fact I have a very large penis.
For what it's worth, I recently saw a female cop in Miami nonchalantly walk into a Pei Wei restaurant and go into the single-person men's bathroom to poop. (I know because I went in there next and it smelled). She didn't even buy any food or anything.
I don't know if it was a matter of "police privilege", but she certainly acted as if nothing was up and she did it all the time. And...
For what it's worth, I recently saw a female cop in Miami nonchalantly walk into a Pei Wei restaurant and go into the single-person men's bathroom to poop. (I know because I went in there next and it smelled). She didn't even buy any food or anything.
I don't know if it was a matter of "police privilege", but she certainly acted as if nothing was up and she did it all the time. And this cop was from a small force in an incorporated city in Miami-Dade County, so it's not like she was unlikely to be recognized.
@Lucky, if JFK falls within NYC limits (LAX does in LA), then all single use bathrooms must be gender neutral... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-adopts-gender-neutral-bathrooms/
The agent's reaction was nonsensical, especially when no harm was done, because I am sure that even in Incheon they do understand the near impossibility of ignoring an URGENT "call of nature"...
Wow ridiculous. Have and continue to do the same thing all the time, albeit I'm a woman using the men's restroom. Single stalls are all unisex at some point! And c'mon this is NYC anyway, you'd expect staff to be a bit more liberal! (Although clearly not the case based on your previous experiences). Really just a lot of wow!
Typical cookie cutter manufactured drama from schlappig.
Lucky, if JFK falls within NYC limits (LAX does in LA), then all single use bathrooms must, by law, be gender neutral...http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-adopts-gender-neutral-bathrooms/
@Gary Leff
I think you are confusing VA and Finnair. I have never seen sex-specific lavs on Virgin Australia and fly them once a week.
I've certainly done the same. Where I live, in Washington DC, it's actually illegal for single stall bathrooms to be gendered.
I have deliberately used the men's restroom before, and would do it without qualms again (sporting venues come to mind...)
I have also accidentally entered a men's restroom. In those circumstances, I've said "whoops", and turned right around and headed in the direction of the ladies' room.
If I were you, I would have treated it as an accident, and apologized - you didn't realize it was the ladies' room :)
You're both douche bags.
The lounge dragon for making a fuss over using a women's bathroom.
And you for making a fuss over getting fussed at by the dragon.
I'm not surprised at all. Korean Air is one of these airlines in the case of which a relatively good inflight experience can be easily ruined by ground staffs. My suggestion is to report this episode via their website. Last Tuesday I was treated by a really rude Korean Air check-in agent at Gimpo airport. He was not speaking English at all and instead of addressing me by my name or at least as Mr.,...
I'm not surprised at all. Korean Air is one of these airlines in the case of which a relatively good inflight experience can be easily ruined by ground staffs. My suggestion is to report this episode via their website. Last Tuesday I was treated by a really rude Korean Air check-in agent at Gimpo airport. He was not speaking English at all and instead of addressing me by my name or at least as Mr., he referred to me as "a foreigner" in Korean. As a Korean resident I'm really sensitive to all manifestations of Korean nationalism and xenophobia, so I've immediately reported this misbehavior via Korean Air website. To my surprise, yesterday I've received a call from their customer relations executive; they have already identified the rude agent, apologized me and offered some vouchers as a compensation. I strongly recommend you to do the same - while they were absolutely right to point out that you haven't used a right restroom, they should do it in a polite way. Unless we request an appropriate treatment from people who are paid with our money, we should not expect good quality of their service...
@James_Bond
Yes. You got me there. I'm a creep.
Seriously though, it's actually a big problem in Korea. Just this past week a CEO of some fried chicken company (호식이) was caught inappropriately 'touching' an employee and is getting investigated.
To be honest I don't blame Koreans for having to check the bathrooms like that. Lucky is a lot more civilized than most older Korean men, but how would you know if you grew up...
@James_Bond
Yes. You got me there. I'm a creep.
Seriously though, it's actually a big problem in Korea. Just this past week a CEO of some fried chicken company (호식이) was caught inappropriately 'touching' an employee and is getting investigated.
To be honest I don't blame Koreans for having to check the bathrooms like that. Lucky is a lot more civilized than most older Korean men, but how would you know if you grew up around only Koreans? Secret cameras are a huge issue and turn up in the news all the time. Search up 'sexism in Korea' in Google and the results are disgusting and true.
You did nothing wrong. I do the same thing all the time at the Admirals Club at LGA Terminal C. Same stupid setup -- one enclosed room for men, one for women, and 80% of club patrons are men.
Gender segregated bathrooms are pointless? What is your problem!! This is not a matter of opinion: ladies go here and gents go there. Can't wait? Go to the one on the terminal, or pee on your undies, but don't break a rule and get mad for getting reprimanded.
You get mad because you can't access a gay friendly site? well gee you are flying Saudia!!! you should be aware of where you are as well...
Gender segregated bathrooms are pointless? What is your problem!! This is not a matter of opinion: ladies go here and gents go there. Can't wait? Go to the one on the terminal, or pee on your undies, but don't break a rule and get mad for getting reprimanded.
You get mad because you can't access a gay friendly site? well gee you are flying Saudia!!! you should be aware of where you are as well as the rules, laws and social connotations. Plus it's a private place, so they can block whatever they want to block and they don't have to agree with you, or like you, or cater to you.
And the fact that you compare any other restroom to a lavatory on a plane means you do have lots to learn still....
What's amusing is that the KE lounge in the satellite terminal of ICN only has single-stall toilets that are specifically labeled for either men or women. So I honestly have no idea what their issue was because it can't possibly be cultural aversion to peeing the same place men do.
Korean Air really ought to hire Ex-North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory to run their bathroom policy. He can oversee the installation of TSA-style nudie scanners in front of all single use bathrooms. Can't take the risk that sexual predators like lucky will use the wrong bathroom and leave the seat up!
You should have asked the lounge attendant if it's ok to use the female bathroom. From their perspective, you could have been planting secret cameras for all they know.
I would have laughed at them.
Fun comments on this post. Thanks y'all.
"Miffed". I can see that prospective. Calling security, I don't get it. But then again, to ban HRC.com in 2014, seems to fall in line with the staffs behavior.
Unisex..... Umm, here in Seattle single occupants restrooms are "all gender". More inclusive, no?
The attitude of the receptionist was borderline rude, but why you couldn't look for a bathroom in the terminal. It seems that you had plenty of time to do that...
But isn't Korean Air allowed to make a rule stating that you can only use the bathroom corresponding to the gender on your birth certificate?
Agree with Fozzy. While a bit ridiculous and inconvenient, it's not hard to just leave the lounge and hit the bathroom in the terminal.
Going to woman's bathroom on Korean lounge is your mistake. It is in fact a big deal. You should have asked first.
First, I think this lounge is not too shabby considering that there is no nice lounge at this terminal at JFK. I think you have to understand the culture here, including the water cups. It's just how they serve it, even on their flights.
Second, I don't think you're wrong in using the other gender's bathroom as I would as well. But again, you need to understand the culture here. The fact they said no...
First, I think this lounge is not too shabby considering that there is no nice lounge at this terminal at JFK. I think you have to understand the culture here, including the water cups. It's just how they serve it, even on their flights.
Second, I don't think you're wrong in using the other gender's bathroom as I would as well. But again, you need to understand the culture here. The fact they said no to you but you still use the bathroom shows disrespect. I would have just played dumb and went without asking! Also, Koreans are anal about being clean, so the fact a guy would pee all over the toilet would make them gringe... anyhow I wouldn't get too upset here! I think you got yelled because you disrespected their response more than anything!
@ Charles -- Maybe I wasn't clear, but they didn't say no. I didn't ask but used it, and only got yelled at after. So I did as you would have done here.
@Hamanaka, respect local policy? At JFK?:)
I would've done the same.
@betterbub , How would you if you r not a white nor a girl?
Are u one of those Korean that u r talking about??
Ben you are absolutely right in this case. Any accusation of cultural insensitivity is misplaced at best; it's not like you miraculously entered Korea or the lounge attendant's home when you walked in the door. Sure you could have used a toilet outside, but why should you inconvenience yourself when a more practical option is available? And commenters suggesting you are wrong for writing about a lounge attendant yelling at you and threatening to call...
Ben you are absolutely right in this case. Any accusation of cultural insensitivity is misplaced at best; it's not like you miraculously entered Korea or the lounge attendant's home when you walked in the door. Sure you could have used a toilet outside, but why should you inconvenience yourself when a more practical option is available? And commenters suggesting you are wrong for writing about a lounge attendant yelling at you and threatening to call security for using the "wrong" bathroom is incomprehensible. Anyway I hope you write to Korean and complain. Seemed to work the first time.
Oh boo hoo. Stop being such a yuppie. There is a world out there where people dont use lounges or sit in premium classes. You didnt even have to use this lounge either as you have a bunch of credit cards with access to alot of other ones if its so beneath you to mix it up with us normal people
If I encounter gender specific solo use bathrooms and the mens is in use, I use the womens. Period. It's not even a debate in my mind.
Too much nonsense going on in this world....I've had enough.
Not going to lie but if this had happened to me I probably would have been tempted to pee on the floor of the lounge, although if you've already gone this may be problematic (=
I once similarly got 'told off' by a lounge dragon for doing the same thing in a Delta lounge, when the mens toilet was out of order. I swift told her to F off.
Breaking news, Ben: You are allowed to leave a lounge every once in a while.
Also, if you hate the lounge to begin with, why go back there? Go to a different lounge. I'm sure you have access to others with all your credit cards. Or even better, mix it up with the normal person in the main terminal. Or are you too good to sit in a main terminal as your premium only?
well I would have asked or tell them I needed to use the female bathroom because the other were busy or in repairs, or for them to give you a solution.. when you deal with people of other nationalities is alway safer to ask politely first, if not you will be marked as an arrogant american.
In NYC you can legally use any bathroom you want.
I would have come out of the construction bathroom, gone back to the front desk and explained that you were going to pee in the men's bathroom sink.
It's because Korea has so many middle age creeps. If you're a white girl in Korea, these are the men that stare at you (and your ass)
I'm not white nor a girl and it still freaks me out
lol all these people saying "it's perfectly fine, I've done it before." Yea, I'm sure Gary ridgeway said the same thing about BTK. Just because you have done something doesn't mean it is right.
While I'd leave the lounge before I'd go into a female bathroom, I don't think it is hideously bad to go into it given that it was solo. Had it been a multi stall bathroom, that would be creepy and way out of line.
I would have used an external bathroom long before I waited 20 minutes. And I guess that I'm in the minority since I've never used (or thought to use) a women's rest room.
California law says that a single stall bathroom is unisex.
A single person toilet should be unisex and available to whoever is in need. You did nothing wrong.
Maybe there's a flag in their computer that says you complained about the lounge before, and they were looking for a reason to cause problems or hassles. Because it's completely irrational for them to be freaking out over something like this.
For being a First Class lounge, you shouldn't have to use the terminal bathroom.
If the water dispenser / bottles are out, are you expected to use the terminal water fountain?
I wouldv'e been more adamant in saying that no bathrooms were available, and had they had more / not done remodeling / checked to see if the person in the bathroom had a heart attack, you wouldn't need to be on the womens toilet. American card is useful at times.
I would have left the lounge to use the restroom. No big deal to leave the lounge since it sucked anyways.
I have and will continue to use the "wrong" gendered bathroom when the other one is unavailable within a reasonable time-frame.
I would love all single-stall bathrooms to be ungendered. I'm not a huge fan of multi-gender multi-stall bathrooms, but will use them when needed.
The only thing I can think of against what you did, is that sometimes, women need a "safe space" and in many cases, the bathroom is the only refuge...
I have and will continue to use the "wrong" gendered bathroom when the other one is unavailable within a reasonable time-frame.
I would love all single-stall bathrooms to be ungendered. I'm not a huge fan of multi-gender multi-stall bathrooms, but will use them when needed.
The only thing I can think of against what you did, is that sometimes, women need a "safe space" and in many cases, the bathroom is the only refuge a woman has to escape unwanted male attention. Perhaps the attendant was worried that you had followed a woman into her safe space? That and worse can and does happen.
Seriously though, it shouldn't have been a big deal in a place like the US.
Oh well; they'll get over it. And if they don't, go the route suggested by Aaron Tan
You really should have waited for security...
Lucky I've done same many times. THe reaction of the lounge host was rude and unnecessary. Speak as you would like to be spoken to. To the people here saying he should have used the lav in the terminal or he broke the rules, I feel sorry for you.
I don't think gender segregated single use bathrooms are pointless in all cases, customers have seemed to like Virgin Australia offering women-only lavatories. However under the circumstances nothing wrong here...
...since nobody else has asked...did you leave the seat up?
You missed option 3, step out of the lounge and use an airport urinal. There exists a world outside lounges and first class, shocking as that may sound.
A huge overreaction. I've used men's rooms before in similar situations - can't imagine why anyone would care about this.
My reactions to this post
#1. TMI.
#2. I know this will blow your mind, but if you step out of the lounge, there are public restroom facilities in the terminal.
#3. Yes the lounge reaction was silly, but not as ridiculous as your need to post about the matter.
#4. Sometimes I wonder how your mother and/or Ford let you leave the house.
#5. LMAO
I guess as an "older" (55) female, I get miffed when males come out of a female bathroom. But I'm getting use to the idea of unisex bathrooms. Certainly wouldn't have called security. Obviously a cultural faux pas with Korean females.
Love your travel stories :)
Lucky you it wasnt in Saudi Arabia,you d be spending the night in prisin with 50 lashes waiting you.
Pat and Alex need to get over themselves. I've gone in the women's bathroom in the terminal before ON ACCIDENT and was horrified when I was washing my hands next to a female but never had security called on me.
Erm, I was wildly offended by the opening paragraph of the blocking of "gay, lesbian...etc etc".
I suggest shitting on the floor and not using the lounge again?
Ben
I usually agree with you.
But...
Did you ever consider leaving the lounge (in the 30 minutes or so that you were waiting) and using one of the many public facilities that I am sure is available throught this not insignificant airport?
Es
Not a problem at all. Their response was ridiculous.
I've used many single-occupant men's restrooms when the need was high and the line was long and would never begrudge anyone else doing the same, or the reverse of same. I've even winked and assured gentlemen who were surprised to see a woman exiting the men's room that all was well, and I put the seat back up.
Do this all the time. No big deal at all. As you mentioned male and females share a bathroom fine on a 15 hour flight no problem.
Women have been doing this since the sawn of segregated single-stall bathrooms.
While I agree that gender segregated bathrooms are pointless, you still broke their rules. It's like saying you want to sell an AA SWU because it's yours, but it's against AAs terms and conditions (not the best analogy, but I'm sure you get the point). It's their lounge, their rules. I would have asked first, or more likely, just walked out and used a public restroom and then return to the lounge.
Seems very strange to me - I've been ushered into singular 'female' restrooms by attendants because the 'male' ones were occupied - in a lounge in a conservative Muslim-majority country.
Maybe this is a Korean cultural thing?
Totally on your side, Lucky. I would have done that, too. I think you should send a message to corporate to give them your feedback.
I would have explained the situation to somebody before deviating from their system. They are the host and you are a "guest", after all.
Tell them I identify as female today and therefore am using the woman's bathroom today.
No line crossing here. You did exactly what I would have done. In fact, did do once. Same situation, only I just used the women's (single room, single stall) before asking. No big deal, done and done. Maybe I just got away with it, but I didn't see any harm.
Wow, I've done that several times. What a ridiculous reaction.
Why not just use the bathroom in the main terminal? Seems like an easy solution.
The lounge itself is wuite rundown, can't believe even the staffs are also hard to deal with. Curious who is using the male toilet for that long tho
You were fine. But don't try anything similar in Riyadh.
Here we go, the ignorant American guy again. Can you at least respect the local policy a little bit and not judging by your so called global view?
LOL I would have embarrassed myself with the fit I would have thrown. OMG I'm getting heated just thinking about it. Honestly, I've done this more times than I can count. Typically I'll wait for the men's, but if it ends up taking long and the women's is open I'll just go right in. When I walk out if there's a woman standing there I'll just smile. Every time I've been "caught" I just get...
LOL I would have embarrassed myself with the fit I would have thrown. OMG I'm getting heated just thinking about it. Honestly, I've done this more times than I can count. Typically I'll wait for the men's, but if it ends up taking long and the women's is open I'll just go right in. When I walk out if there's a woman standing there I'll just smile. Every time I've been "caught" I just get a smile back (the only exception is when a woman burst out in laughter because she was surprised). I honestly feel like you should make a big stink about this.
This is absurd. Women do this all the time for men's bathrooms, whether they're single bathrooms or not. There have been dozens of times I've used a men's single bathroom because the women's is full and/or has a line.
Ridiculous! I've done so many times in other situations after having been less patient!
I agree with you 100%. I would do the same.