I recently wrote about how I missed a connection while flying American from London to Chicago to Miami, with a delay that started due to a late inbound aircraft resulting from a maintenance issue.
Under UK261 regulations, that misconnect entitled me to £520 in cash compensation. I don’t make the laws, but those are the rules, so of course I made the request to receive that payout (just like an airline would charge me if I wanted to change flights, and there was a fare difference).
However, the customer relations representative who responded wasn’t truthful about the cause of the delay, blaming it on air traffic control. Even when I confronted him with facts to the contrary, he doubled down. Well, I now have an update…
In this post:
American agrees to pay UK261 compensation that’s due
Yesterday afternoon, I received a phone call from American, so I answered. There was a nice woman on the line from American’s “customer success” department. I’m not sure if she called because of my blog post or because of my email back-and-forth — unfortunately I’d assume it’s due to the former.
She immediately apologized for what happened, and said that American would of course pay the government mandated compensation. She just asked me to confirm my address for sending the check. Okay, great!
She then asked me if I had any other questions. So I asked her about what exactly happened in my communications with her colleague. I explained to her that the flight notes with the reason for the delay were very clear, that the flight was primarily delayed due to a late arriving aircraft resulting from a maintenance issue.
I inquired as to whether she had any insights for why her colleague had insisted that there was an 81-minute delay resulting from an air traffic control issue, which simply wasn’t true. Of course I understand she’s a customer service representative and doesn’t make the rules, but still, I figured this was an important point to understand.
What was her answer?
- She explained that American’s notes on the cause of delays are pretty lengthy, and that maybe it was a newer representative who was answering my claim
- She explained that the notes for the flight did indicate that the flight was held due to air traffic control, but if you look more into the report, the majority of the delay was due to mechanical issues (this exactly matches what I explained in my email and in my post)
- She assumed that the previous representative didn’t see the part in the report about the mechanical issue, but she assured me that American will provide additional training so that this doesn’t happen again in the future
What do I make of this compensation saga?
I’m of course grateful that I got this issue resolved, though I also recognize that I likely only had a positive outcome because I wrote about this. I had waited to write about my experience until after I had some back-and-forth with agents and got nowhere, because I wanted to get the “real” experience.
Of course we have to be honest here, and acknowledge that making it very difficult to request government mandated compensation isn’t exclusive to American. When it comes to situations where airlines are forced to pay out, so many airlines lie, lie, lie, lie, and then lie a little more. Again, I’m not talking specifically about American, but that’s true of a majority of airlines, sadly.
I can’t count the number of times I’ve had readers reach out with similar experiences across airlines. To me, it’s a real flaw of these government programs that mandate compensation. Great, you’re entitled to compensation, but the airlines will lie to no end to get out of paying it, and as consumers, we have limited recourse, short of suing, or something.
I appreciate that the representative actually addressed my question about why the other representative didn’t follow regulations. She was more transparent than I was expecting, in terms of confirming that the flight notes said exactly what I expected they would, about the primary cause of the delay being due to a late inbound aircraft resulting from a maintenance issue. That’s not just an opinion, it’s a fact.
That being said, does anyone believe that this was an honest oversight, and not part of a systematic attempt to deny compensation claims? I mean, in many ways, it would actually be worse if this were an oversight. I repeatedly provided the agent with proof, and he completely denied it, and even after some exchanges, he claimed to have “thoroughly reviewed” the file, and still didn’t change his stance.
Bottom line
I finally got my UK261 compensation request with American taken care of, as a friendly representative called and apologized, and immediately processed the claim. That being said, I suspect that this only happened because of my blog post (which I wrote about after an extensive exchange with customer relations).
The agent I spoke with insisted that it was an honest mistake, and that the other representative might have just been new, and not read the notes properly. However, given the way so many airlines act with these claims, I have a hard time believing that…
What’s sad here is that I’m not really sure what the moral of the story is. Usually I like to tackle these issues with hopes of bringing about positive change in terms of how airlines (and other travel providers) interact with customers. However, I don’t think this behavior will change, and I don’t think there’s anything I can do about that. That’s frustrating.
How can I get flight record? Recently, my flight to JFK-CDG went mechanical first, then crew timed out. Delta cancellation email stated the reason for cancellation as crew timeout. My external insurance (which i stupidly provided that email) denied the claim as they do not cover crew timeout. I would love to the a full record so I can appeal the decision. Any ideas other then annoying Delta to give me one?
Where can flyers see the flight notes about their flight?
You should have asked the rep if she'd be reaching out productively to the rest of the affected travelers to notify them they'd be receiving compensation. The airline needs to make this right for all affected pax though I'm 100% sure they're not going to do the right thing
Ben, I was on the same flight as yours on August 28 and received the exact same response for my claim. Same scenario, AA91, forced overnight, except my final destination was not MIA, In fact, it’s possible that the same agent handled our cases and copied their response to you and sent it to me. (I was a little puzzled when their reply referenced MIA, and now it makes a little more sense). Like you,...
Ben, I was on the same flight as yours on August 28 and received the exact same response for my claim. Same scenario, AA91, forced overnight, except my final destination was not MIA, In fact, it’s possible that the same agent handled our cases and copied their response to you and sent it to me. (I was a little puzzled when their reply referenced MIA, and now it makes a little more sense). Like you, I shared the flight notes from Expert Flyer and even sent them a confirmation email from AA about the delay reason, which I got from submitting an insurance verification request. I was about to give up and wait it out for 8 weeks before filing a complaint with UK regulators. Once I saw your post, I shared it with AA and received a prompt reply agreeing to the compensation claim. I have another issue to settle with them on (involuntary downgrade on a subsequent segment of the trip due to the misconnect at ORD), but wanted to comment and say thank you for writing about the experience. It was the difference maker.
Flew on American one time and one time only I can totally believe this after what I experienced on my first and only flight with him years ago.
How do you get the flight notes?
FlightRight in the UK isn't all that great. After more than a year of little to no communication they closed my case. I only found out when I chose to check my case status on their website. When I emailed them about this, they provided a template weak apology for their oversight. I wouldn't recommend them.
Ben you are a smart fella. You know your column did it. I wish there was something like this for hotels. We are getting pushed around, shoved, by top executives who use lower level staff to peddle their deceit. Big names like Hilton, Hyatt and Marriott.
I'd say it's intentional/systematic.
The higher level CSR will follow the rules and try to make nice, but the front line reps are supposed to try to deny claims, regardless of validity.
Otherwise, many of their frontline folks have to be incompetent or dramatically overworked. None of those answers is particularly flattering.
"but she assured me that American will provide additional training..."
Lol. All kinds of nope. Whenever someone in support assures you of something and you don't know who they are or that they are held to those assurance that means it's just something they say to placate you.
I'm pretty sure that senior mgmt sees hiring less skilled workers who won't bother reading the notes and cause these issues is a side benefit. Think how many customers get nowhere and give up.
I would have added one layer which I systematically use to request higher compensation (it usually works):
EU/UK 261 compensation must be paid in cash (not in vouchers). I usually add that I shall require the compensation in cash, but that I am quite open to receive a higher amount using a voucher. This is accepted about 80% of the time, and the higher value can go from 15% to 50%. I would say that it is 25% on average.
Got the same thing with Air Canada when delayed 4 hours. 1st was maintenance, then they released coupons for food at airport after 2 hours, then diverted to different plane /gate, and pilot then timed out after everyone was boarded so new pilot found, then waiting almost 30 minutes for catering "after new pilot onboard". Systemic method for filing claim on Air Canada site immediately came back no - they deemed it maintence issue so...
Got the same thing with Air Canada when delayed 4 hours. 1st was maintenance, then they released coupons for food at airport after 2 hours, then diverted to different plane /gate, and pilot then timed out after everyone was boarded so new pilot found, then waiting almost 30 minutes for catering "after new pilot onboard". Systemic method for filing claim on Air Canada site immediately came back no - they deemed it maintence issue so not entitled. It costs them nothing to immediately deny as many passengers will simply give up and accept the response. Sytems look at records for the flight = maintenance = no compensation.
Now starting phone escalation.
Air Canada is the worst they even get the pilots to MAKE UP BS to customers.
Back in April I was delayed in Zurich for 5 hours for a Swiss Air flight. Once home I went to Swiss Air’s website, filled out the form for compensation and had the money deposited in my checking account in a week.
Where you compensated for your hotel and meals through your credit card benefits?
Sabre Sonic provides current and historical FLIFO (flight information) to agents so they can research such matters. They likely failed to read the FLIFO history, and that probably is what caused the confusion. To whom did you first send the claim for UK261 benefits stateside? Did you simply call res or email Customer Relations?
The lying kicks in whenever a flight is delayed. Much of my flying is with United. With a delay, they tell three lies about the new departure time, before finally admitting the real time (or cancellation) on the fourth try.
I think the lying comes from the industry's military-style command-and-control culture, which seems necessary for the cockpit, and features a "shut up & do what you're told" ethic, but is the opposite of what's needed for customer service.
Good job covering this issue. Probably the only way an airline’s behavior in a case like this will change is via a class action lawsuit alleging that this is a systemic effort by the airline to deny these claims.
How were you able to determine with certainty that it was a mechanical rather than an ATC issue? I'd like to be able to present similarly bulletproof proof next time this happens to me.
Mentioned in the earlier post: https://onemileatatime.com/insights/american-lies-blames-maintenance-delay-air-traffic-control/
Lucky used ExpertFlyer.
I have a full membership at Expertflyer and I still cannot find the feature where they give the info. Help, please....
Since this ticket was ex-UK, I would say that by far the least painful way to claim on a UK flight is to issue a Money Claims process. It's part of the justice system, and an expedited track for small claims. BA tries to say you should consider their 'independent' mediator, but you aren't obliged to.
Costs about £50 and is all online. You need a template for the action. Issue a pre-claims notice (templates...
Since this ticket was ex-UK, I would say that by far the least painful way to claim on a UK flight is to issue a Money Claims process. It's part of the justice system, and an expedited track for small claims. BA tries to say you should consider their 'independent' mediator, but you aren't obliged to.
Costs about £50 and is all online. You need a template for the action. Issue a pre-claims notice (templates online - I have created a good one for UK261). Wait 28 days. And then file. I have done it 3 times with BA (when I have been clearly in the right). 2 times they just paid up immediately, and once they went to the next step which is a sort of assisted mediation. In each case, they paid the Court fee back to me. You keep control, and you don't give away a cut.
BA aren't perfect in this regard but Lufthansa Group are by far the worst (or mainline carriers) in my experience.
And for those of us who don't have a widely read blog the best course of action in this type of situation is usually just to email the CEO to get to someone on the executive team
No. That is not the best way. Along with others, I have been saying that in the U.S., you take them to small claims court. In my case, it was in Seattle. For a small fee, you fill out a form, attaching all your evidence.
A date is then set for a hearing before a judge, who has final say. Neither side can be represented by an attorney. At the hearing, the judge asks you...
No. That is not the best way. Along with others, I have been saying that in the U.S., you take them to small claims court. In my case, it was in Seattle. For a small fee, you fill out a form, attaching all your evidence.
A date is then set for a hearing before a judge, who has final say. Neither side can be represented by an attorney. At the hearing, the judge asks you to present your evidence, as well what you are asking for in judgement.
The airline is called to present it's evidence, and not by a lawyer. The judge then can/does question either or both side, or all sides.
In my case, the judge asked no questions. It took all of 15 minutes in his courtroom. He then ordered the airline to pay me $1,500( what I claimed). As an aside, after the judge banged the gavel, he told the airline not to appear in his court again.
Yeah @Ben please do this! Especially now you know what it’s like, (and what it’s like without the platform that you have)!
Yeah @Ben please do this! Especially now you know what it’s like, (and what it’s like without the platform that you have)!
Congrats on getting your compensation.
100% AA is full of it. I highly doubt anyone else on your flight is getting compensation unless they specifically ask for it and cite your article.
I was thinking exactly the same thing !
Ben, you missed asking one question that would have been quite informative: how many other UK261 claims were incorrectly denied as a result of this flight and has AA contracted THOSE claimants to correct their "mistake"?
Otherwise, I think this was a great exercise. You were able to demonstrate that in a clear-cut case of UK261 law as stated by AA itself, the airline falsely denied you compensation due.
Unfortunately this is the kind of...
Ben, you missed asking one question that would have been quite informative: how many other UK261 claims were incorrectly denied as a result of this flight and has AA contracted THOSE claimants to correct their "mistake"?
Otherwise, I think this was a great exercise. You were able to demonstrate that in a clear-cut case of UK261 law as stated by AA itself, the airline falsely denied you compensation due.
Unfortunately this is the kind of systematic issue that can really only be addressed at the level of the entire system, which would mean some third party (probably the DOT) auditing delay reporting and compensation claims and fining violations.
I posted almost the same thing... about the same time! :)
I agree 100% with your post; Great for Ben, but others are not going to be as lucky.
I guarantee her response would have been I don't have those stats as I don't work in that area so the information is not privileged to me.
This is also an issue when filing claims for travel interruption coverage offered by credit cards or some insurers. Weather and ATC delays offered aren’t covered, whereas maintenance and other airline issues (staffing, etc) are.
I had positive experiences with LH-Group about this: One was approved and payed after a month or so by Austrian, another one was approved and paid immediately + with a bonus as I took it as flight credit by Swiss.
However as mentioned in the original article there are many services that do this for you and only take a 10% fee (risk free and only to be paid on success). In a case like this I would gladly pay the 10% in order to save myself the hassle.
Wow, you are still using checks over there? I used uo live in the US for a couple years and I remember hoe ancient I thought it was with checks. That was 25 years ago...
Many firms (in USA and Europe) still send out cheques because they don't want to keep your bank details on record.
I think it is more likely they want to take advantage of the inherent wastage when a check is sent (ie. It never gets cashed by the recipient).
This. They are also unwilling to refund to card of purchase. They already have enough details to get you your money faster. They just want a) to hold on to their funds longer and b) the check to not be cashed. They literally will send it to the wrong address for this purpose.
You’re so sophisticated Mark.
I do not live in the US. I have not seen or used a cheque in years. Cash has almost disappeared as a payment method.
I have a chequebook from about 15 years ago, it bears the logo of a bank that got bought by another bank which later merged with a third one. Funnily enough, the last 4 cheques have been used to pay court fees when suing airlines. I bet there are lots of people in their 20s and 30s who've never even seen a hand-written cheque.
Unfortunately, we are.
Our banking system in the US is not set up well for bank transfers.
We can set up automatic bill payments, but that's based on a credit card or ATM debit card.
Actually transfering money between accounts is a disaster. That's why Venmo exists (the banks can't get their shit together).
Living in Europe, you'd observe there are airlines (unsurprisingly the low-cost do this, but Turkish also does this) systematically denying compensation. Thankfully at least in the UK you can hold them accountable with the UK dispute resolution centre.
Last but not least, AA not only owes you the compensation but they also have a duty of care and need to pay for your overnight hotel, diner, etc.
Turkish is the worse, they seem to deny everything. I think they should be ban to fly to the EU/CH/UK if they don't intend to respect the law.
I once had a compensation claim with Iberia. They cancelled my flight less than 14 days before departure and rebooked me on a flight that left more than 2 hours earlier — which means I was entitled to compensation. It took a while to even find the claim page on their website, but I eventually managed and submitted the request. Instead of rejecting it or addressing the compensation part, they just sent a generic email...
I once had a compensation claim with Iberia. They cancelled my flight less than 14 days before departure and rebooked me on a flight that left more than 2 hours earlier — which means I was entitled to compensation. It took a while to even find the claim page on their website, but I eventually managed and submitted the request. Instead of rejecting it or addressing the compensation part, they just sent a generic email saying cancellations happen and they’re sorry for the inconvenience. No mention of my actual claim.
I called the consumer helpline to ask what law applied. The flight was from Alicante to London with a stop in Madrid, and the Alicante–Madrid leg was cancelled. They told me I could claim under both UK and EU (Spanish) law. I also confirmed this with the UK CAA by phone.
I emailed Iberia a few more times, but still only got vague "sorry" messages with no proper response to my claim. So I took it further — I submitted a complaint through the CAA portal and also on the Spanish government website.
A few weeks later, the CAA emailed me saying they had contacted Iberia and that Iberia would follow up. A few days after that, I finally got an email from Iberia confirming I was entitled to compensation. And I got it.
Funny thing is — when I check the Spanish government claim site even now, it still says my case is "in process." This all happened back in 2021…
When an individual, company or corporation commits a faux pas, it is how they deal with their wrongdoing which comes to define them.
American Airlines has one of the worst customer service care records amongst all others, can that change?
The subject OMAAT article may well have resulted in a satisfactory outcome for Ben and quite rightly so, however, will it change anything at AA? One is doubtful, one suspects that Ben’s experience...
When an individual, company or corporation commits a faux pas, it is how they deal with their wrongdoing which comes to define them.
American Airlines has one of the worst customer service care records amongst all others, can that change?
The subject OMAAT article may well have resulted in a satisfactory outcome for Ben and quite rightly so, however, will it change anything at AA? One is doubtful, one suspects that Ben’s experience and the shortcomings of AA’s s customer service ethos will change nothing for AA’s future customers.
One must find it near impossible to defend the indefensible American Airlines.
They called you because obviously they read your blog , all the apologize and the rest it's bullshit
So to get EU261 credit we all need to sub to ExpertFlyer`
I am in the process of making a claim against LH for a cancelled flight that ultimately required that I reroute and was told that my day and rerouting was due to bad weather.
When I responded with Flight Radar screen shots of traffic to/from FRA & HAM, with further details of the aircraft (the cancelled flight) that was repositioned to LHR and flying normally, I heard nothing back.
I have now posted...
I am in the process of making a claim against LH for a cancelled flight that ultimately required that I reroute and was told that my day and rerouting was due to bad weather.
When I responded with Flight Radar screen shots of traffic to/from FRA & HAM, with further details of the aircraft (the cancelled flight) that was repositioned to LHR and flying normally, I heard nothing back.
I have now posted on ‘X’ and have been asked very promptly to provide details. Clearly bad PR is not something that they - LH - want.
I did the same (post to Twitter as it then was) with TAP for a refund for 2 business class flights from LHR-LIS-EWR which TAP claimed I did a no show on. Again, a swift response was forthcoming and refund paid.
Unfortunately, I think you are right about receiving the attention you did because of who you are.
Sadly, this is the standard operating procedure for most airlines.
I was on a flight out of London back to the US at the end of April 2024 that was delayed due to an announced mechanical issue, we were eventually rebooked onto a different flight 19 hours later. Our tickets had cost less than the GBP 520 in compensation we were due under the UK 261 law. American took three weeks to respond to the first request for compensation by offering a $100 flight credit....
I was on a flight out of London back to the US at the end of April 2024 that was delayed due to an announced mechanical issue, we were eventually rebooked onto a different flight 19 hours later. Our tickets had cost less than the GBP 520 in compensation we were due under the UK 261 law. American took three weeks to respond to the first request for compensation by offering a $100 flight credit. I emailed them approximately every week with a reminder that the law was clear, the elements had been met, and we were waiting on our delay payment and expense reimbursement. By end of June they emailed “asking for more information”, after a few more weeks, around mid-July, they finally emailed that they were mailing a check for the full amount plus reimbursement. I assume most people either don’t know they have the right to payment or don’t want to keep having to follow up so they try to make it into a war of attrition.
Ben writes that the initial denial letters came from "him," without revealing how he determined the gender. Was "he" using only a first name? You really think they aren't using a pseudonym? And maybe everyone in the office uses the same name, so it looks like you are communicating with the same person. The emails are signed by Bill, but they could be written by Krish or Zara.
So I don't think the call was due to your celebrity status. I had the same process you're describing here today. I emailed CS on Sunday on behalf of my non-status in-laws who had both of their flights cancelled on the new 787-9P between ORD & LAX when one of the planes was out for maintenance for several days. I initially got the standard non-responsive auto-response, then replied to that saying I needed a better...
So I don't think the call was due to your celebrity status. I had the same process you're describing here today. I emailed CS on Sunday on behalf of my non-status in-laws who had both of their flights cancelled on the new 787-9P between ORD & LAX when one of the planes was out for maintenance for several days. I initially got the standard non-responsive auto-response, then replied to that saying I needed a better answer. Today I received an email saying they tried to call us and offering a pretty lame compensation (7,500 miles each). It included a name, phone number, extension and reachable hours where we could call back if we wanted to discuss the matter further. Despite not feeling very well compensated (long story, but it was much more than a simple cancellation and led to 10 hours delay on the outbound, 3 hours delay on the return, and obviously not a premium plane), we probably will just take what they offered. Mainly just reporting here that a no status passenger got the same phone call treatment today, so hopefully this is American stepping up after you've pushed back on their "not our fault" or "we have nothing for you" initial responses.
You should have asked about few hundred other passengers if they will received their checks too.
He didn't say how many others had bought a ticket from LHR to MIA via ORD, but I doubt there were more than half a dozen.
The bigger the crime, the smaller the punishment.
These scumbag airlines can screw people out of billions, so they'll never, ever be held accountable.
Now, you going 6 MPH faster? That'll be a $250 fine, and we'll hunt you to the ends of the Earth for it.
That's the world we live in.
I suspect American will be tracking you - and if there any irregularity - you might pay a price for it. Call it negative CK.
LOL - The agent called and lied, lied, lied as well.
A*%@(#)@oles
2 things. We all know the reason they called so quickly was the minor travel related celebrity that this came from and the subsequent attention it created.
Second, for NathanJ who had to make a smart comment about how checks is spelled in the US...well, just FYI, it is "myriad" other words...not "a myriad." Very common and incorrect usage of that word, so maybe just leave the language policing off the internet.
Nathan’s pomposity aside, it can be “a myriad of” or simply “myriad” (with no article “a” and no trailing preposition “of”), depending on the intention.
Notwithstanding my comment above, agreed about the language policing. :)
@Bob - I recommend your not making "corrections" of English when the given usage is standard.
Myriad as an adjective is an American "dumbing down" of the earlier usage as a noun.
That's OK; languages evolve, but the older form is not therefore wrong.
P.S. The use of the possessive gerundive in the first line here is traditional, but probably not used by you!
As someone mentioned upthread, it sound like in the EU there's a third party that handles appeals if the airline continues to deny your claim.
I'd like to see something similar, and also a penalty applied for claims the airline denies and then is overturned by the third party handler. Maybe 20% extra payment to the claimant? And if the airline reaches a certain percentage threshold of denied claims in a certain period (say...
As someone mentioned upthread, it sound like in the EU there's a third party that handles appeals if the airline continues to deny your claim.
I'd like to see something similar, and also a penalty applied for claims the airline denies and then is overturned by the third party handler. Maybe 20% extra payment to the claimant? And if the airline reaches a certain percentage threshold of denied claims in a certain period (say over a six month period) they pay a general fine that has some teeth to it. Eventually, it will be more cost-effective for them to pay out their claims on the front end and stop with this BS.
Mayor Pete would have introduced something like this, but you lot voted for the Other Guy.
He must have been extremely incompetent not to have been able to it in the 4 years he was boss.
"Mayor Pete", whose job it was, did nothing during 4 years of total incompetence. What makes you think that 4 more years would have made him do ANYTHING useful ?
Gate agents are, in my experience, THE problem cog in the wheel. My favorite is when you have a serious issue that they cannot/won't resolve so they tell you to call the 800 number! No, no, no! RULE #1 in customer service, a customer standing in front of you gets priority over everyone else. Do NOT answer the phone and do not ignore the person in your face. Figure it out or quit your job.
...Gate agents are, in my experience, THE problem cog in the wheel. My favorite is when you have a serious issue that they cannot/won't resolve so they tell you to call the 800 number! No, no, no! RULE #1 in customer service, a customer standing in front of you gets priority over everyone else. Do NOT answer the phone and do not ignore the person in your face. Figure it out or quit your job.
When you absolutely must talk with a CS agent, assume that they have an IQ of 80. They all talk like robots and cannot string together complex questions or answers. And for some unknown reason, they never have pen & paper at their side for taking notes so as not to repeat questions endlessly. In fact, I tell them to write down all the info I am about to give them so I don't have to repeat endlessly. Like my phone number, ask once and write it down! Don't ask me again.
The world on phone CS needs a global enema.
I cannot believe your country still uses cheques (or ‘checks’ as you all wrongly spell it, along with a myriad of other English words). The rest of the world has been using direct entry into a bank account for decades; cheques are even being legally phased out here.
Unbelievable.
Will you be okay?
Shall we call the whaaaaambulance?
behavior, color, favor, flavor, harbor, honor, humor, labor, neighbor, rumor, splendor, analyze, catalyze, hydrolyze, paralyze, analog, catalog, homolog, dependent, inquiry, program, meter, checker, donut, draft, dice
You can spell an aeroplane and direct entry it into your kunt arse.
Unbelievable.
What's more, we insist on calling aubergine an eggplant. This resulted recently in an attack on a sandwich shop owner, because an angry customer had ordered an egg sandwich and instead got one with eggplant.
American engineers follow the rule, "never use 3 letters when 2 will work." Perhaps that is why the 707 succeeded while the Comet kept crashing.
@NathanJ
I suggest it's best to stick to one message at a time.
You are quite right that the continued use of paper cheques in the USA is bizarre to the rest of the world.
And worth reminding Americans when they spout that they still have the technologically most advanced country (which was true in the 1960s and 70s)
@BEN
Ben, American & every other US5 airline reads your page & VFTW daily. You don’t realize that? Of course you got a call back.
American Airlines is kind of dumb: they should know that if they don't pay, the current administration will not do anything about it (aka reduce the regulation "burden") as they have already dismantled many departments protecting Citizens like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, exactly what Americans voted for.
It's just America today. There's no social fabric, no presumption of a basic moral education. People would rather commit a crime at work and start a war than "risk getting sued" or "losing their jobs". No thought about repeat business, fair play, relationships, goodwill or reputation. Basic moral education. Basic qualifiers to be considered humane or human.
Really upsetting.
Consumers aren’t left without recourse, at least under EU261. Under EU261, member states must have an appeal mechanism. If you don’t get a response from an airline to your claim, or get denied, you can file an appeal with a third party. The third party varies; but several airlines/countries use an independent company to handle their appeals. I had a delayed Lufthansa flight last year; they paid my travel companion’s claim within days but didn’t...
Consumers aren’t left without recourse, at least under EU261. Under EU261, member states must have an appeal mechanism. If you don’t get a response from an airline to your claim, or get denied, you can file an appeal with a third party. The third party varies; but several airlines/countries use an independent company to handle their appeals. I had a delayed Lufthansa flight last year; they paid my travel companion’s claim within days but didn’t respond to my claim for weeks. If I hadn’t gotten a response within 60 days, I could have appealed to the third party. I would be surprised if UK261 didn’t have the same requirement.
UK has the CAA. It is quite an easy and quick process.
It isn’t always easy. Despite it being an EU regulation you have to complain to the regulator in the country you are flying. Each country has a different process to navigate and the process in some European countries is horrendous. Iberia is notorious for denying claims and blaming on “exceptional circumstances” with no explanation. The Spanish regulators’ complaint system is mostly in...
UK has the CAA. It is quite an easy and quick process.
It isn’t always easy. Despite it being an EU regulation you have to complain to the regulator in the country you are flying. Each country has a different process to navigate and the process in some European countries is horrendous. Iberia is notorious for denying claims and blaming on “exceptional circumstances” with no explanation. The Spanish regulators’ complaint system is mostly in Spanish and very cumbersome…lots of ID verification that is difficult unless you are Spanish.
Luckily in a recent event I could complain to CAA and within 10 days Iberia admitted liability. Meanwhile 8 months later I am still waiting for anything back from the Spanish regulator.
Also some airlines sign up to alternative dispute companies. Eg British Airways signs up to CEDR to independently manage complaints. If CEDR sides we BA you still have the opportunity to go to CAA or court.
The issue is the process is different with every airline and every country. And even if the regulator sides with you, the airline can refuse and you have to sue them.
There are little consequences for airlines...
Also some airlines sign up to alternative dispute companies. Eg British Airways signs up to CEDR to independently manage complaints. If CEDR sides we BA you still have the opportunity to go to CAA or court.
The issue is the process is different with every airline and every country. And even if the regulator sides with you, the airline can refuse and you have to sue them.
There are little consequences for airlines to deny unless you push to court. Therefore the response for most airlines is to deny and hope the passenger gives up.
Airlines hate this regulation, think it’s unfair and have been fighting it for years. They just have to be careful not to create too much noise that the EU reforms it and makes it easier for customers to claim compensation.
I really think the first ‘agent’ you dealt with was AI.
Or even an employee using AI to help do their job.
Instructions for Chat GPT
Review the claim and try to find any way we can deny the claim by exclusion.
The customer asserts the claim is valid. Reaffirm that our argument is correct and the reason for the delay does not entitle compensation.
-
More likely than telling chat...
I really think the first ‘agent’ you dealt with was AI.
Or even an employee using AI to help do their job.
Instructions for Chat GPT
Review the claim and try to find any way we can deny the claim by exclusion.
The customer asserts the claim is valid. Reaffirm that our argument is correct and the reason for the delay does not entitle compensation.
-
More likely than telling chat GPT to make a fair assessment of the claim and pay out.
Whether they knew who your were or not, I think someone looked at it and said - it’s not worth it, let him have the compensation.
Put it this way, if you were worth less than £500 to the airline I think they may have carried their argument of ATC delays all the way to court. It’s not like that’s untrue, there were also ATC issues and honestly speaking at Heathrow these are often ridiculous and ATC make minimum effort to make things better. I guess they aren’t on the hook for compensating airlines or passengers
Still waiting on compensation from AA for a cancelled flight out of the EU. They’ve blamed it on weather and air traffic control but that’s not true. Any tips for getting the money besides having a popular blog?
Depends on the country you flew from. You have to complain to the regulator in that country. Some countries are better/easier than others. Some airlines in some countries make it easier by being members of Alternative Dispute Resolution companies who solve it for them.
Despite it being a customer friendly EU wide regulation the enforcement can be very difficult. Which is why airlines have a reputation of deny and hope you give up. In...
Depends on the country you flew from. You have to complain to the regulator in that country. Some countries are better/easier than others. Some airlines in some countries make it easier by being members of Alternative Dispute Resolution companies who solve it for them.
Despite it being a customer friendly EU wide regulation the enforcement can be very difficult. Which is why airlines have a reputation of deny and hope you give up. In most cases that reputation is well founded.
Firstly, congrats on getting what was clearly owed to you. There was never any question, in the mind of a reasonable person, that the circumstances and law meant you were owed compensation by AA. What troubles me, as well as others here, is that the average Joe does not have the heft of a high profile blog behind them. AA knows this and will act accordingly to their low standards.
@Ben, I'm speculating here but is there a chance that these frontline customer service agents are somehow "scored" negatively when they honor this kind of compensation and favorably when they "save" money for the company (by whatever means)?
So, this would mean that AA is not necessarily instructing their agents to lie but simply rewarding agents who avoid as many "hits" as possible, and the initial agent handling your claim might have been trying...
@Ben, I'm speculating here but is there a chance that these frontline customer service agents are somehow "scored" negatively when they honor this kind of compensation and favorably when they "save" money for the company (by whatever means)?
So, this would mean that AA is not necessarily instructing their agents to lie but simply rewarding agents who avoid as many "hits" as possible, and the initial agent handling your claim might have been trying to do just that (which can be extrapolated to the way some airlines reward gate agents for catching as many passengers as possible with "non-compliant" hand luggage). This way companies can always blame these cases on "training" and save face when accused of intentionally deceiving customers.
Please educate us readers on how you are able to see the real reason for the delay. Where is this published? How can an ordinary traveller (who is working a million hrs on their own job) easily tap into the source where the official delay reason is available to view......this would be helpful to know.
I believe airlines file this in their flight notes. This can be accessed through a subscription to Expert Flyer. Most people do not have this.
The airline is supposed to make this detail available to you when requested as part of evidencing the denial of a claim. However in my experience they will quite often avoid doing this unless requested by the regulator or court.
What's crazy to me is it isn't too hard to have a step for the GA at the connecting gate see pax who are connecting and missing. They could easily add the ability for them to communicate directly with you (phone call or text) to confirm you are running to make the flight. This entire saga could have been avoided by waiting mere minutes and resulting in a flight that would have still arrived early...
What's crazy to me is it isn't too hard to have a step for the GA at the connecting gate see pax who are connecting and missing. They could easily add the ability for them to communicate directly with you (phone call or text) to confirm you are running to make the flight. This entire saga could have been avoided by waiting mere minutes and resulting in a flight that would have still arrived early for all pax. But alas the simple steps and small improvements to the tech stack to make it a better experience are overlooked.
I'm glad you received compensation from AA in this situation. I wasn't as lucky, last year I was supposed to fly SXM to CLT but the pilot they sent to SXM didn't have enough hours to make the return flight back to CLT so they instead flew us to Miami. The pilot actually announced that he started his day early to get extra hours for his pay and with the 20 minute tarmac delay leaving...
I'm glad you received compensation from AA in this situation. I wasn't as lucky, last year I was supposed to fly SXM to CLT but the pilot they sent to SXM didn't have enough hours to make the return flight back to CLT so they instead flew us to Miami. The pilot actually announced that he started his day early to get extra hours for his pay and with the 20 minute tarmac delay leaving SXM he timed out and could only reach MIA. My non stop flight back home from the Caribbean became a fiasco. They gave us 1.5 hours to make the connection with immigration and security, myself and probably at least 50 other people missed the flight standing at the gate looking at the plane sitting there with doors closed for probably 45 minutes while I waited to speak with the gate agent. The only option they offered was flying on standby and *hoping* someone doesn't show because all flights were full back to CLT the next morning, so I took the last flight to RDU got a hotel because I landed at midnight and rented a car the next morning because I had a work obligation and was disgusted with AA. AA blamed "weather" and I got 10k miles for my trouble, which frankly is an insult. No refunds for my expenses or apology for the massive inconvenience because AA couldn't fly a pilot to a remote island who has enough time remaining to make the return flight. I'm CLT based so avoiding AA is challenging but now whenever possible I fly another carrier. Things happen, I get that part but the way AA treats people when something does go wrong is shockingly insulting.
What prevents the airline for just putting weather delay in the notes for all delays regardless of the real reason?
Nothing stops them from noting everything as weather, and they absolutely do this already in many situations where weather was either a complete non factor or so indirectly related to your flight as to be laughable. Scenarios where there is weather in Minneapolis, so the plane going from Minneapolis to Chicago to Jacksonville gets delayed. But your flight from Chicago to Houston gets delayed or cancelled because your plane got assigned to the Jacksonville flight....
Nothing stops them from noting everything as weather, and they absolutely do this already in many situations where weather was either a complete non factor or so indirectly related to your flight as to be laughable. Scenarios where there is weather in Minneapolis, so the plane going from Minneapolis to Chicago to Jacksonville gets delayed. But your flight from Chicago to Houston gets delayed or cancelled because your plane got assigned to the Jacksonville flight. Calling that "weather" is an insane stretch, yet the airlines do it. Or the 10 minutes of weather that somehow cancels a flight. Or the weather that is 50 miles east of the airport, yet cancels the flight coming from the West.
It can be total luck of the draw in these situations, and presumably the airlines prioritize flights with certain factors - perhaps to a hub, lots of high status fliers, less common plane that can't be easily swapped, alternate options available, or revenue on flight.
And yes, I am still seething from the situation I was in with AA where the ground crew (who were in the terminal explaining the situation) , the FAs and the pilots all stated the plane was delayed due to no ground crew. Yet AA claimed weather at the next airport when I missed my overnight international connection, and the nastiest desk agent in the history of airports said there was absolutely nothing that could...
And yes, I am still seething from the situation I was in with AA where the ground crew (who were in the terminal explaining the situation) , the FAs and the pilots all stated the plane was delayed due to no ground crew. Yet AA claimed weather at the next airport when I missed my overnight international connection, and the nastiest desk agent in the history of airports said there was absolutely nothing that could be done. The system said weather and there was no one who could change it. Finally the third person at the EP call center sent a hotel voucher.
This might make me an "airline apologist," but no, I don't think the situation you outline is a huge stretch to call it weather. Weather was causing a flight to be delayed. They re-optimized to move the flight affected by the weather, presumably to minimize the downstream impacts of that delay. If there was no weather, the flight from Chicago to Houston doesn't get delayed.
The alternative that you are suggesting where in the case...
This might make me an "airline apologist," but no, I don't think the situation you outline is a huge stretch to call it weather. Weather was causing a flight to be delayed. They re-optimized to move the flight affected by the weather, presumably to minimize the downstream impacts of that delay. If there was no weather, the flight from Chicago to Houston doesn't get delayed.
The alternative that you are suggesting where in the case of a weather delay, if they re-assign aircraft, then the flight that gets the unlucky draw can't be noted as being delayed to weather would incentivize airlines to not try to re-optimize by shuffling around aircraft whenever there is a weather delay. If they leave the delayed aircraft on Chicago to Jacksonville, that flight gets called a weather delay. If they move another aircraft to JAX because it would minimize downstream impact, then the flight that gets delayed because of the weather at MSP, whatever it is, can no longer be called delayed due to weather. So you're putting the airline in the position of: minimize impact of the delay at the cost of not being able to call any flight as being delayed due to weather vs. being able (rightfully) say that a flight was delayed due to weather but not being able to take active steps to minimize the effects of that delay from propagating through the network. I'd personally rather have the airline be able to say that a flight was delayed due to weather and put that in a place that has the least net effect on the network (which should, at a minimum, be highly correlated to having the least effect on passengers as well).
Because a "weather delay" doesn't absolve them from EU261.
Now, if ATC has closed the airport, or limited take off and landing then the airline can have a point but just "blaming it on the weather" is what 99 % of people believe.
BTW - I had a flight cancelled at the height of Covid. A Virgin flight, 5 tickets. Virgin blamed a "Worldwide Pandemic", (amongst other things). They denied the claim. I submitted the claim to Aviation ADR that found in my favor.
“Not read the notes properly”. Oh come on do they think we are all idiots?
"I’d assume it’s due to the former."
Come on man. We all know its because of the blog.
I had a recent EU261 flight delay claim with Lufthansa due to maintenance delays and it was approved and paid within a few days without any further follow-up required. My guess is that a lot of the outcome depends on the person who initially reviews the claim.
I believe airlines file this in their flight notes. This can be accessed through a subscription to Expert Flyer. Most people do not have this.
The airline is supposed to make this detail available to you when requested as part of evidencing the denial of a claim. However in my experience they will quite often avoid doing this unless requested by the regulator or court.
Sorry the above reply posted on the wrong post!
Now correct reply… I think a lot of it depends on the airline policy and how many people they want to hire denying claims and responding to emails as opposed to just paying.
It seems LH are good at paying up. In my experience BA has been pretty good. Most people’s experience with Iberia and Ryanair is that they will deny and fight, hoping you give up. At least until the regulator gets involved.
Ben says "I don’t think there’s anything I can do about that. That’s frustrating."
But you did, Ben: you wrote about it in One Mile At A Time.
Your modesty does you credit but you're a leading blogger in the space and there isn't the slightest chance American is unaware of the size and stickiness of your audience, or of the prestige you enjoy. There are people in that company, who know this went badly,...
Ben says "I don’t think there’s anything I can do about that. That’s frustrating."
But you did, Ben: you wrote about it in One Mile At A Time.
Your modesty does you credit but you're a leading blogger in the space and there isn't the slightest chance American is unaware of the size and stickiness of your audience, or of the prestige you enjoy. There are people in that company, who know this went badly, know they pissed you off and want to prevent a repeat. Well done.
This 100%.
Weird how inconsistently claims get processed. UA comped me several days after I wrote them a brief generic email about EU261.
It really depends on the agent that processed your case.
I've worked in customer service before and I have staff under me who were somehow hell bent on proving each client is trying to game the system and refuse to give any benefit of the doubt. It's as if the compensation comes out from their own pocket and they are personally upset whenever the company has to compensate.
I also have staff who just...
It really depends on the agent that processed your case.
I've worked in customer service before and I have staff under me who were somehow hell bent on proving each client is trying to game the system and refuse to give any benefit of the doubt. It's as if the compensation comes out from their own pocket and they are personally upset whenever the company has to compensate.
I also have staff who just give a free pass to everybody that ask nicely, or not even sometimes.
Company culture also plays a huge role. If a company scrutinize any agent that has a high compensation %, then it'll incentivize agents to err on the side of caution or worse purposely deny legitimate claims if they are near or above the threshold. Thankfully the company that i worked for doesn't practice this but as a manager i can see how this would influence staff because we track other metrics and I can see game theory being practiced in real life on my staff.
Same for me with UA. It took a week or so to respond, but was given the option of check, miles or travel bank credits. The travel bank credit was $1k, so I took that and it got deposited shortly.
What do you make of this saga - simple without your blog post you wouldn’t have gotten that call nor would you have received the just compensation
i.e. peasants are us are screwed.
This isn't necessarily true. I've received three calls over the past week about a mechanical delay on a domestic flight that made me arrive home three hours late and get downgraded from a purchased first class ticket. I am not happy with AA's compensation, but it is what it is. It's the first time AA or any airline has called me about a complaint. I don't have a blog, so it must have been my status (Exec Plat) that motivated them to call me.
The exec office is now referred to as "Customer Success" I believe.
@ Terence -- That's what it was, thanks!
Flew British Airways in May and delayed flight due to maintenance out of Chicago to London resulted in a missed connection to Florence and an 8 hour delay. Filled out the form online and money was in my bank account within the week. Could this be a bigger issue with US airlines?
The easiest way to make airlines pay just compensation is to make it so that they have to pay triple plus some legal fees if they lose a fight in the legal system.
Time for airlines to lose the status quo and be forced to introduce automatic refunds based on facts rather than excuses and ways not to pay passengers. Of course some kind of revenue protection is needed with oversight for both parties but these dirty tricks can and should be dealt with.
Its systematic. They paid you but they denied 250 other passengers from that flight who received the same 2 emails as you did due to "the agent didnt read the lenghty report" AA is a joke and they will say how sorry they are and that they will accept your feedback. Its been 10 years of feedback and nothing changes!
Most of the other 250 passengers had no claim because they arrived in Chicago only an hour late. Ben received compensation because AA sold him a ticket with a 2-hour connection, international to domestic, which is unrealistic.
I wish you asked her if AA was going to reach out to every other person affected by this delay and remind them to apply for the compensation. I wonder how many people called and were given the same story as you, and just gave up?
Good work Ben. Because of the blog you remind those with similar issues stand up for what is right.
It's systemic. They've clearly turned it all over to AI, loosely supervised by a human perhaps (my favorite was when the fake name the AI-Human used was "Email"). You can tell it's AI because no one at AA was able to write complete grammatically correct sentences a few months ago. AI's customer service pattern is mirrored on insurance companies - they immediately deny the claim, they may respond a few times, but ultimately they say...
It's systemic. They've clearly turned it all over to AI, loosely supervised by a human perhaps (my favorite was when the fake name the AI-Human used was "Email"). You can tell it's AI because no one at AA was able to write complete grammatically correct sentences a few months ago. AI's customer service pattern is mirrored on insurance companies - they immediately deny the claim, they may respond a few times, but ultimately they say no and stop responding. Very hard to escalate it to an actual human. Yours got escalated because you have a blog that people at AA read.
Not hard to read between the lines on this one, unfortunately.
Exactly. Would have been nice if Ben would have checked to see if the other affected passengers got compensated also.
What it means that increasingly you get either a bot or someone poorly trained and lacking knowledge responding to you. A few of the agents I've talked to on the CK line were totally clueless so even the highest food chain is getting stuck with subpar.
Ditto the ACs.
I am surprised that a class action lawsuit has not happened yet considering how widespread this practice seems to be.
Class action lawsuit will let the lawyers earn $15M and each passenger get a coupon for $2.50 on the next flight, booked in advance, round trip only with Saturday night stay.
Class action lawsuits are a scam for lawyers to earn a lot of money and a few crumbs to the class.
It may be a scam for the consumer, but it does prevent bad behavior from corporates since they do actually have to pay someone (mostly lawyers) real cash.
Class action lawsuits are largely American phenomena. Doesn’t really exist in Europe. Given EU law then there will be no class action.
Each case is decided on an individual basis and sets a precedent for everyone to follow.
The EU needs to reform it because the enforcement mechanisms are really poor and inconsistent. However the airline lobby is fighting any reform. The EU recently readdressed which has resulted in some changes…most notably the...
Class action lawsuits are largely American phenomena. Doesn’t really exist in Europe. Given EU law then there will be no class action.
Each case is decided on an individual basis and sets a precedent for everyone to follow.
The EU needs to reform it because the enforcement mechanisms are really poor and inconsistent. However the airline lobby is fighting any reform. The EU recently readdressed which has resulted in some changes…most notably the right to take on cabin baggage without charges!
Of course you did. But my family member whose luggage was destroyed by AA's gorilla baggage handlers will not.
I have to say, American surprised me this week. I had a first class ticket (paid) from DFW-PWM through DCA last month with the DFW-DCA leg being hours late. AA changed me to a nonstop to BOS which arrived three hours late (after midnight) resulting in having to spend the night in BOS and a rental car to PWM the next day. I filled out their complaint form and had forgotten completely about it until...
I have to say, American surprised me this week. I had a first class ticket (paid) from DFW-PWM through DCA last month with the DFW-DCA leg being hours late. AA changed me to a nonstop to BOS which arrived three hours late (after midnight) resulting in having to spend the night in BOS and a rental car to PWM the next day. I filled out their complaint form and had forgotten completely about it until yesterday when a check for 450.00 showed up with a portion of my complaint in the payment memo section.
The last time I got a check from AA (earlier this year) they (I sincerely believe) purposefully mailed it to the wrong address hoping that I would forget about it. Despite having my correct address through my AA Exec Card, my AA profile, the AA customer service form, confirming my address with the AA rep the first time, somehow it magically ended up being sent to a different address. I had to get back in...
The last time I got a check from AA (earlier this year) they (I sincerely believe) purposefully mailed it to the wrong address hoping that I would forget about it. Despite having my correct address through my AA Exec Card, my AA profile, the AA customer service form, confirming my address with the AA rep the first time, somehow it magically ended up being sent to a different address. I had to get back in touch with them so that they could stop payment on the first check and mail a second check to the correct address.
Nonsense! They know what they did!
I can already title your next article on this issue:
AA Removes Comments Section From ExpertFlyer Flight Status Search
It was not an honest oversight, and everybody knows it.
The “customer excellence” woman you spoke to is guaranteed somebody very very high up their communications food chain, and likely somebody who reports directly to or 1° of separation from a C-level individual.
Yes, you only got this response because of your blog, for which I’m very glad. It’s just too bad that seemingly everybody else gets screwed.
The perks of being famous :)
Good for you and hopefully a cautionary tale for AA customer service..
(and pigs have wings!)
Two years ago I had a months-long saga with UA over EU261 which ultimately ended with me getting only a $200 voucher for goodwill. I'm glad you got what you had coming to you, even if it's because you have a decent-sized platform.
A win is a win!
We have companies in Europe specializing in getting peoples claims from airlines, the one I mostly used was flightright. They check the case automatically and the chance of the payout, then they fight for the payout. Airlines know the platforms and likely don't want to go to court, so they pay. The platforms take a share + VAT from the compensation amount and pay the rest to you.
If you don't want to take...
We have companies in Europe specializing in getting peoples claims from airlines, the one I mostly used was flightright. They check the case automatically and the chance of the payout, then they fight for the payout. Airlines know the platforms and likely don't want to go to court, so they pay. The platforms take a share + VAT from the compensation amount and pay the rest to you.
If you don't want to take a lawyer to get claim your rights, that is a pretty efficient way.
Here are also some competitors to flightright, @Ben - Maybe this makes sense for an own article?
https://www.flightright.com
https://www.airhelp.com/en/
https://www.fairplane.de
Awesome ! Ben won’t be pushed around.