American Airlines recently introduced its new Airbus A321XLRs, which feature all-new cabins. These are supposed to be an exciting aspect of American’s attempt to move upmarket and better compete, as these planes will be used in lucrative markets, including on transcontinental flights and across the Atlantic.
Well, I just flew American’s A321XLR Flagship Suite business class from New York (JFK) to Los Angeles (LAX), and oh my, I don’t even know where to begin. While I’ve praised American’s new Boeing 787-9Ps and think they’re a great step in the right direction, these A321XLRs feel like they were designed in a board room, with no input from passengers or crew. And admittedly I kind of knew what to expect, but there were several little aspects to the product that really took away from the experience.
In this post:
The brutal American A321XLR feedback I overheard
Before I even share my take on the product (as someone who lives and breathes airline passenger experience), let me share what’s perhaps most telling. Often when you fly a new first or business class product, you’ll hear people onboard gushing about how amazing and impressive it is. After all, premium airline seats have come a long way.
After the plane landed in Los Angeles and the seatbelt sign was turned off, business class passengers just started talking with one another. What were they talking about? Well, how much they hated these new seats:
- “This is the worst business class seat I’ve ever been in”
- “I can’t believe this is their new business class, what were they thinking?”
- “Who designed this seat, this is so tight?”
I’m not making this stuff up, these are the real comments I overheard between strangers. I didn’t hear a single person say a positive thing. Of all the airline products I’ve ever flown, I’ve never witnessed such a negative reaction all at once.
Even during boarding, as people walked back to economy, nobody had the usual comments about how “wow, look how nice these seats, I want to sit up here.” Instead, I heard:
- “Why are the seats facing away from the windows?”
- “It’s giving New York city cubicle” (he then proceeded to tell the whole business class cabin how his voice is raspy despite the fact he hasn’t hooked up with a guy in 11 days, and then said he hopes he ends up on TikTok — hey, I heard it, so you have to hear it as well)
- “This is what all the hype was about?”
Is American’s A321XLR business class seat really that bad?
While I always enjoy hearing what others have to say, let me share my own take. American’s A321XLR business class is based on the Collins Aerospace Aurora platform, which is a herringbone product, meaning that passengers face away from the windows, and toward the aisle.
Now here’s the thing — American isn’t the first airline to have a product like this. We’ve seen herringbone seats on narrow body planes make a comeback in JetBlue’s A321LR Mint Suites and Iberia’s A321XLR business class. Those seats are based on a slightly different platform, but the idea is the same. So is it fair to criticize American, when other airlines have a similar concept as well? Yes and no.
First, let me say that I think most of us aren’t fans of herringbone layouts, where you’re facing the aisle. It’s sort of awkward during boarding, and in general, you have to contort your body to look out the window. The seat also feels super tight, with walls on both sides, and the storage space is also so limited.
Herringbone seats were among the first flat bed seats we saw a couple of decades ago, so why are they making a comeback? The reality is that a herringbone configuration is more efficient than a reverse herringbone configuration, and on narrow body planes, space really comes at a premium, in order for the economics to work. So as narrow body planes increasingly fly longer distances, we’re seeing a return of these less spacious seats.
So, what’s the problem with American’s A321XLR business class, exactly? As I see it, there are a few things that make this marginally worse than other versions of the product:
- While American’s A321XLR business class seats have doors, they can’t yet be used, as they haven’t been certified; I don’t think that’s a huge deal, but it’s worth mentioning
- It’s my understanding that American’s A321XLR business class is pitched tighter than JetBlue’s A321LR business class, so the seat does feel a bit less spacious
- Because of how tight the seat is, plus the TV swinging out in front of you, American’s policy is that the TV has to be stored during the meal service, so that the crew can serve passengers; when you step back, it’s absolutely mind boggling to think that a seat was designed where this needs to be the policy
- The tray table was super flimsy, and would just squeak and shake constantly; I was working on my laptop, and eventually just placed the laptop on my lap, since the noise of the tray table was so unpleasant
So as I view it, the new American A321XLR is only marginally worse than what you’ll find on JetBlue and Iberia. However, the hard product on neither of those airlines is particularly good to begin with, and then when you even make it a little bit worse, that’s not exactly ideal.
American’s A321XLR business class lavatory mess
If you ask me, the biggest issue with American’s new A321XLR is the extent to which this plane was designed with the sole focus on getting as efficient of a layout as possible.
The American A321XLR has one lavatory in the front of the plane, and three lavatories in the back of the plane. The people who are worst off are premium economy passengers, since there’s no dedicated lavatory for premium economy, so they either have to go to the very front or very back of the plane.
This is where the issue arises. On domestic flights, American allows passengers to use any lavatory on the plane. So you have the one forward lavatory shared between the pilots, the 20 business class passengers, and (more often than not), the premium economy passengers. That’s a horrible lavatory ratio.
On international flights, American asks passengers to use the lavatories in their ticketed cabin, and for premium economy, the designated lavatory is in economy. Still, think about it. This plane will operate transatlantic flights, and almost everyone will want to use the lavatory before landing, after waking up.
How are 20 people, plus the pilots (who so often want to use the lavatory shortly before landing), supposed to share one lavatory? It’s going to be a disaster.
How does that differ from JetBlue and Iberia? JetBlue has 24 business class suites, but opted to install two lavatories at the front of the aircraft, and also doesn’t have premium economy. Iberia has only 14 business class seats, with one lavatory, and there’s also no premium economy.
Is this all just an indictment of the Airbus A321XLR?
I can totally see how we got to the point where American has an A321XLR with TVs that can’t be used during service, and a terrible premium lavatory ratio:
- Airbus is of course selling a plane that’s extra long range, and is highlighting to airlines how great the economics can be for long and thin routes
- Seat manufacturers want to create efficient seats for these types of planes, since that’s what airlines want, so that a sufficient number of seats can be on the plane for the math to work
- US airlines have very high labor and operating costs, and of course American wants to optimize the configuration, to maximize revenue potential
Individually all of that sounds fine, but then when you step back and look at the big picture, you’re left with a plane that has direct aisle access from every business class seat, yet leaves passengers really unhappy.
I’ve written in the past more broadly about the A321XLR, and whether it’s a long haul game changer or a plane to avoid. Here’s the thing — if you’re flying this plane in a transatlantic market where there otherwise wouldn’t be nonstop flights, many people would find it worthwhile to deal with the worse product for the convenience of not connecting.
I think American’s strategic blunder is also putting these planes on its most competitive, transcontinental routes, where there are a ton of options. Why would you subject yourself to this if you don’t have to?
Before I rag on American too much, though, let me note that United also has A321XLRs coming soon, and they’re likely to have nearly all the same problems that American has. They also have 20 herringbone business class seats and 12 premium economy seats, with one lavatory at the front of the plane.
Honestly, maybe Delta had the right idea by saying no to this plane, since this just doesn’t feel like the future, in terms of comfort. It’ll be telling to see whether passengers just complain about the product but continue to fly it, or if they actually vote with their wallet.
Even Qantas, which recently took delivery of A321XLRs with a much less premium configuration, is already starting to retrofit these planes, to add lavatories. Passengers just aren’t happy.
Bottom line
I had the chance to fly American’s new A321XLR business class, and unfortunately it’s a far cry from American’s new 787-9P business class. Now, that’s not really surprising to me, since I knew to expect herringbone seats, which are otherwise out of style.
However, American obviously had a heavy focus on efficiency, to the point that passengers can’t even view their personal entertainment screens head-on during the meal service. And that says nothing of the lavatory mess.
I’ve flown a lot of new products shortly after launch, but I’ve never witnessed such a negative reaction from other passengers in the cabin, especially without any sort of a prompting. I didn’t hear a single passenger on the plane say a good thing about the cabin or seats.
What’s your take on American’s A321XLR business class? Do you think passengers will vote with their wallets and avoid these planes, or just put up with it?
Love American. Best Airline in the world! Will fly them forever
Gurl settle down...do all 22 people have IBS? How does you possibly survive with 70 people and 1 lav on a CRJ? You are just looking for something the be negative Nancy about.
Swiss has had the best business class. No pods! I guess I will save my money and fly premium economy on these other airlines
It’s an Airbus thing. I recently flew Sydney to KL on a new A330 in Business Class and it too was horrible. Like it was assembled from dollar-store flat-pack furniture.
The whole cabin looks like it came from a dollar store.
I just flew it - and I hated it. I was SO excited for it - and it was such a bummer. The seat is so tight - and it's claustrophobic af. The aisles are super tight - the FAs can't maneuver in and out easily. A really really crappy product.
Hot take: The Premium Economy seats look more comfy than the Flagship Business. (Just don't go to the bathroom!)
Looks very claustrophobic
Lucky, I'm a big fan and a longtime reader, but I have to point out that the whole AvGeek blogosphere - you included - was hyping the A321XLR like it was going to be an epic revolution in aviation.
A few of us pointed out back then that this was sure to spell disaster in terms of comfort and the passenger experience, and we were lambasted by the masses (not by you, but by other...
Lucky, I'm a big fan and a longtime reader, but I have to point out that the whole AvGeek blogosphere - you included - was hyping the A321XLR like it was going to be an epic revolution in aviation.
A few of us pointed out back then that this was sure to spell disaster in terms of comfort and the passenger experience, and we were lambasted by the masses (not by you, but by other readers).
I get your point about being able to configure this slightly better, but I just don't see how a narrowbody long-haul plane was ever going to be a big leap forward?
What did you envision?
Delta still has 767s which I flew recently HNL-NRT. AA did not learn from when they had 757 Jfk to Europe, pushing the boundaries of human tolerance. Management is dysfunctional, penny wise, pound foolish
When it comes to international premium class travel, I've learned to avoid ALL U.S. airlines, mainly due to the reasons highlighted in this article. Their focus is on efficiency in both hard and soft products, and a significant percentage of the crews have neither the training nor the aptitude to be working a proper premium class cabin.
In short, US airlines are fine for flying around America. They simply don't understand international service standards and...
When it comes to international premium class travel, I've learned to avoid ALL U.S. airlines, mainly due to the reasons highlighted in this article. Their focus is on efficiency in both hard and soft products, and a significant percentage of the crews have neither the training nor the aptitude to be working a proper premium class cabin.
In short, US airlines are fine for flying around America. They simply don't understand international service standards and worse, seem to have no real interest in trying to do so because the driving force is fiscal efficiency, not a quality experience.
If these serve tourist heavy routes, it's fine. Most tourists aren't travel savvy and make decisions based on airplane type. If it's business heavy, it'll fare poorly. I care about comfort on long flights and will choose any two aisle jet over single aisle. Heck, once Alaska shut down the Hawai'ian route from BOS to HNL, the only options I would choose was either drive to JFK and fly from there or take Delta because...
If these serve tourist heavy routes, it's fine. Most tourists aren't travel savvy and make decisions based on airplane type. If it's business heavy, it'll fare poorly. I care about comfort on long flights and will choose any two aisle jet over single aisle. Heck, once Alaska shut down the Hawai'ian route from BOS to HNL, the only options I would choose was either drive to JFK and fly from there or take Delta because they have a number of western US to KOA flights on 767s. Flying thru SLC on a 321 was ok. Coming back and flying thru LAX and having to take a 757 back to BOS was only acceptable because of the middle lavatories and the standing space around them.
The rest of my family didn't seem to understand or care. They would've once on board....
I think this plane should have no bathrooms. Americans need to learn self-control. They need to learn to hold it till debarkation. I will not fly this plane till all bathrooms are removed.
If you had the upgrade from coach to the lay flat, then self downgraded with a sway to premium economy to avoid the claustrophobia… would you carry guilt? I feed this plane knowing how I feel when I don’t get access to a window, and if those doors get certified I’m certainly not ready to close my coffin in the sky.
Between the brutish thuggery of the airport DHS experience and the obvious disregard for customers by airline managements, I'm surprised anyone flies today. At all...
I've flown over 6 million miles lifetime. Thankfully, I've never experienced "brutish thuggery" by TSA or security officials overseas. They are fellow human beings doing a job that the times unfortunately necessitate. I find that if I treat them - as well as the cabin crew - with respect and friendliness, I'll usually get the same back in return.
I've got a little over 10000 miles of flying coming up in the next two...
I've flown over 6 million miles lifetime. Thankfully, I've never experienced "brutish thuggery" by TSA or security officials overseas. They are fellow human beings doing a job that the times unfortunately necessitate. I find that if I treat them - as well as the cabin crew - with respect and friendliness, I'll usually get the same back in return.
I've got a little over 10000 miles of flying coming up in the next two weeks. It remains the most efficient and safe means of getting me where I need to go.
This has to be the most ridiculous design of aircraft interior ever, and then to call it premium or business class? Stick it to any airline that sells this crap
Obviously American is a US-based airline, so did we REALLY expect anything better? As an American myself, I am embarassed when talking with my international friends and business partners about our terrible planes, airports and (the worst) service. But since all of this is not going to get better anytime soon, you would hope that our airlines could at least get their premium products correct
It is time for the entire AA Board of Directors to "clean house". From the AA CEO down, they are not in touch with reality. If the board does not understand why there stock is so low, let them fold and bring back Sir Richard Branson with a new Virgin American Airlines.
I fly with a 50# service dog. I’ve been in First Class on American Flagship and the floor space is impossible for him. It has multilevel spaces and what’s left that’s level is a joke.
The only place that works on the entire plane is Seat 6D on the Flagship.
What is the level floor space on these newbies?
I have flown over 10m miles, and this cabin iscthe worst. on transatlantic flights there is no way that any one over 5-5" can lay down and even if you can you cant roll ovrr. there is more room in a coffin! t had to walk sideways down the aisles as they are so narrow. all the flight attendants were bitching- they hate this plane. you have more room in economy....first class my ass....this is a joke
OMG a Boeing influencer, looks like he had all the time before other PAX came on to free wheel through the cabin to take as many pics they wanted.
The current or “older” 311 have a lav in the morning dole of the plane. 2 in the back and 1 in the front I can’t believe they designed a new plane with out a mid cabin Lavatories this helps with the flow for service reasons and wait times now there will be lines everywhere and this just sound like a nightmare
'Designed is a boardroom' says everything u need to know....especially THAT boardroom...known to hate passengers and crew
Wow an acutely aware group of people, who all happened to be on the same flight right next to each other, ready to deliver crisp critiques that are perfectly choreographed with the author's viewpoints. Give me a break ben we're not THAT stupid. The more I read this article the more tells I spot that show this is made up for clicks (it worked).
Even AA basher Gary Leff didn't stoop this low. (He actually liked it!).
Re-Dreamer, what a simple fraud you are. You are just a confirmed troll using numerous fake usernames, now stop embarrassing yourself and crawl back into your cardboard street hovel.
Very interesting post. I too am not a fan of the herringbone configs or using narrowbody jets on long haul flights. That said - it could be worse. I was just in the process of booking two business class tickets on SK’s new route CPH-DWC (Dubai) over christmas (for $4K) and saw that they have scheduled the 7+ hour redeye flight with a intra-euro A320, meaning slimline seats with no screens for all passengers. This...
Very interesting post. I too am not a fan of the herringbone configs or using narrowbody jets on long haul flights. That said - it could be worse. I was just in the process of booking two business class tickets on SK’s new route CPH-DWC (Dubai) over christmas (for $4K) and saw that they have scheduled the 7+ hour redeye flight with a intra-euro A320, meaning slimline seats with no screens for all passengers. This will probably make passengers even more unhappy. @Ben, perhaps SK CPH-DWC will make the top 10 worst flights? :)
Re-Dreamer, what a simple fraud you are. You are just a confirmed troll using numerous fake usernames, now stop embarrassing yourself and crawl back into your cardboard street hovel.
Sorry Lukas, I have no idea how my post intended for the troll The-Redreamer ended up in your space.
"How will 20 passengers and pilots use a single lav?"
The same way DL A321 has 20 first class passengers and pilots using a single lav.
Granted, the DL flights I usually fly on with that config are domestic and not transatlantic.
I can say I will avoid these planes whenever possible for across the pond flights. I want the comfort of a wide body for longer flights. Luckily our new international airside in Tampa will have Delta as the anchor and it appears Delta is eschewing this product. Indeed , I would pay a bit more to avoid these narrowbodies.
I love looking out the window during a flight, as well as having space and not feeling claustrophobic. I also dislike long lines at the bathroom because it reduces privacy and it makes using the restroom as well as receiving service more difficult. finally, the video restriction is ridiculous. This is not something I would pay extra for. What were they thinking?
As bad as this seat design is, their service is far worse. I stopped flying on American because of their poor customer experience. They just don’t care about their customers.
Ben:
To answer your question, does Oasis come to mind? That should answer how AA decides! Doubly so if Isom was part of decision making.
Wait till you go the the economy bathroom when service is being done and have 10 people standing in the aisle. Oh and the mess the bathroom will be.
I flew on AA A321T from JFK-LAX and then LAX-BOS in Business Class a couple of years ago and was impressed, 20 seats in a 2-2 arrangement where you are sat next to your neighbour, plus they had 10 First Class suites. I feel this new A321XLR Business Class is a step backwards.
Project kickoff meeting...
"Hey guys, let's design this to look like cubicles in a call center."
They could make a movie about it and instead of calling it Office Space, they could call it Airplane Space. It would definitely need Gary Cole as an air steward and that guy Ron ??? from Band of Brothers, plus that guy who mumbled in Office Space as passengers. Now that would be a great movie, Lol
Hooking up a guy comment is so gross it’s not needed
I flew from Newark to London last month the seats are horrible and the food was appalling I. Businesses class choice was pork or fish ♀️and not enough staff and I agree the toilets are just awful
What is this fake AI-slop nonsense you posted?
yeah... Kate
you didn't fly EWR-London on an AA XLR ;)
I think you've got a slightly bad comparison here:
The B6 and IB seats are the Thompson Aero VantageSOLO. The AA seat as you call out is the Collins Aerospace Aurora. I've yet to fly the Aurora, so the only thing I can say from personal experience is I've genuinely enjoyed many transcons and TATLs in B6's VantageSOLOs. That said, inferring from the photos (especially in the RunwayGirl reporting "Collins breaks 45° barrier for side-on...
I think you've got a slightly bad comparison here:
The B6 and IB seats are the Thompson Aero VantageSOLO. The AA seat as you call out is the Collins Aerospace Aurora. I've yet to fly the Aurora, so the only thing I can say from personal experience is I've genuinely enjoyed many transcons and TATLs in B6's VantageSOLOs. That said, inferring from the photos (especially in the RunwayGirl reporting "Collins breaks 45° barrier for side-on Aurora inward herringbone"), I can easily see why the Collins seat might quickly develop a... less than stratospheric reputation. I guess American just really loves their coffin seats, whether it be on wide body 777-200ER, or now a narrow body A321XLR...
Informative and useful article.
I shall avoid, if possible, flying business class with any airline that adopts this particular configuration.
The XLR is the perfect example for, just because you could, doesn't mean you should. Any flight longer than 5h I never take a narrow body.
Well look at what other airlines are offering transcontinental. Some of them have seats that don't go all the way back for example...
I used to work for a European airline in the service design department where our role was essentially designing service flows on board our aircraft.
We also had a role in new aircraft design. The airline would get a bunch of people from different stakeholders and we would basically sit around a huge LOPA of the yet to be delivered aircraft and discuss.
From a service design perspective we would say 'OK, there should be...
I used to work for a European airline in the service design department where our role was essentially designing service flows on board our aircraft.
We also had a role in new aircraft design. The airline would get a bunch of people from different stakeholders and we would basically sit around a huge LOPA of the yet to be delivered aircraft and discuss.
From a service design perspective we would say 'OK, there should be a galley at doors 1, 2 and 4. Let's have a decent lav to passenger ratio and go for X number of lavs.
Then the accountants would have their turn. 'Well, if we remove the galley at doors 2 and reduce the lavs from X to Y, we can fit in Z more seats which will generate $A more revenue'.
And the accountants won the argument every single time.
Often suspected; rarely proved.
Fascinating to hear confirmation from someone who was there.
Yikes. How far AA has fallen. I remember the heyday of the 3 class transcons. Flagship first dining first introduced. Three class domestic service at its peak. Great crews. Multicourse reasonably premium menu. Happy crews. We're a far cry from those days, but it wasn't even that long ago - ~10 years?! How fast things can change.
it's US Air. AA is buried and gone.
It's not even USAir. USAir died a long time ago. It's America (Worst) West.
Yep, we can thank Doug Parker for giving American a strong shove onto its current downward trajectory. Others who've followed have continued to paddle furiously onward through the downward current. It's really sad to see. I remember when American was a good airline - about 30 years ago...
.
When I have traveled in Premium Economy on any AA flight, I have always used the Business Class Lav. I have never been told not to.
I’d take a recliner any day like some aircraft il used to have over the usual non lie flat first class seat.
I fly United 100 flight segments a year. And one of my biggest pet peeves is sitting in first class in a seat exactly like I would get from
spirit in first class. But i get a meal if the flight is long enough and maybe a TV. That’s it. It...
I’d take a recliner any day like some aircraft il used to have over the usual non lie flat first class seat.
I fly United 100 flight segments a year. And one of my biggest pet peeves is sitting in first class in a seat exactly like I would get from
spirit in first class. But i get a meal if the flight is long enough and maybe a TV. That’s it. It ma come with lousy wifi, and free drinks but I dont drink. All For 5-15x the cost of Spirit.
Come on.
I’d take a recliner all day every day over those first class seats if it can’t be a lie flat option.
Poor people’s Business Class. Lol
The rich fly private. If you're flying commercial, you're not all that rich.
Pete, there are some of who are certainly rich enough to fly PJ, don’t you know. However, personally I find that the vast majority of PJ’s, do not have the cabin height available for those of us who are not vertically challenged. I’m not a lover of having to sit to pee …. :-)
The aircraft is not to be blamed. How comfortable the aircraft is depends on how they are configured by the airlines operating them.
If you fly SIA or CX in their economy class they are comfrotable because they are 3-3-3 but if you fly some airlines with 3-4-3 on the A350s then it is a totally different experience. The same goes with business class on the A380 of Emirates vs BA/Lufthansa. BA/Lufthansa business class sucks.
Yeap, agree completely. I'm going to miss the A321T. Yes, outdated, but it does the job. Always felt the business class was priced accordingly and was good value for the LAX to JFK segment. Since the First class dining is still closed at LAX it was nice to have a lower coat premium experience, and LOVED the bathroom. Even Main cabin had a good ratio. The plane even in main cabin felt spacious. For the...
Yeap, agree completely. I'm going to miss the A321T. Yes, outdated, but it does the job. Always felt the business class was priced accordingly and was good value for the LAX to JFK segment. Since the First class dining is still closed at LAX it was nice to have a lower coat premium experience, and LOVED the bathroom. Even Main cabin had a good ratio. The plane even in main cabin felt spacious. For the JFK to LAX segment, first class was fun because of the ground experience-Chelsea Lounge. The A321XLR doesn't get that opportunity.
A321XLR business-not paying it. Once the A321T is gone, Delta One, here is come.
People rightly criticize DL's 763 J layout. But, I will take that over a 757 from another carrier on a flight to Europe. It sounds like I'd prefer a DL 763 in J to an AA 321xlr also. Kudos to DL for realizing it's wide body or nothing TATL.
QF's first 2 321xlrs have 180 Y pax sharing 2 lavs. What idiot thought this made sense for an airline that enforces front lav for J only? The remaining will have 3 on delivery, and the first two will be retrofitted. AA has 132 non-F pax for 3 lavs.
The Premium Economy product looks and feels better than that shoe box thingy up front that costs about five times more. I’ll take the old fashioned recliner with a little elbow room, thank you very much.
Saw these when they were delivered.
They remind me of the farrowing crates we had on the farm.
Someone commented the passengers should have their heads sticking out in the aisle to be fed.
I had to do a double take at one of those IFE screens..."tervetuloa" with the language setting "English" highlighted? I fully support more Finnish words in the English lexicon..."sauna" and (to a lesser extent) "sisu" are not enough.
I will be avoiding this airline.
Single aisle business lay flat doesn't have to suck. But then AA got a hold of it.
So sad -
This "coffin" was first introduced +/- 15 years ago when CX tried to fit their 747's with flat bed business class.
The reaction was so bad and they lost so many customers thet they actually stopped the retrofit and replaced with a reverse heringbone fleet
i guess the only thing in Doug Parket's mind when he OK's this was the accountant's report
AA basically owned the FC transcon market until they...
So sad -
This "coffin" was first introduced +/- 15 years ago when CX tried to fit their 747's with flat bed business class.
The reaction was so bad and they lost so many customers thet they actually stopped the retrofit and replaced with a reverse heringbone fleet
i guess the only thing in Doug Parket's mind when he OK's this was the accountant's report
AA basically owned the FC transcon market until they let their planes go to hell.. i don't know why that instead of upgrading the product (smaller but better first class), a true reverse Herringbone business class (even though they would lose a few seats) they went ths route.
in today's market, they could have easily priced the product properly
Re the comment "the passenger will get used to it" - maybe yes, maybe no as this leaves the semi-private (JTX like) wide open for expansion..
As a United 1K member, I will avoid the XLR like the plague. Any flight longer than a transcon needs to be on a wide body for me. Passengers should NOT be excited for increased single aisle, medium haul flying. The only party they benefit are the accountants at the airlines.
The lav situation on these birds is laughable and I feel so bad for the staff who need to work these planes. Just...
As a United 1K member, I will avoid the XLR like the plague. Any flight longer than a transcon needs to be on a wide body for me. Passengers should NOT be excited for increased single aisle, medium haul flying. The only party they benefit are the accountants at the airlines.
The lav situation on these birds is laughable and I feel so bad for the staff who need to work these planes. Just imagine the line for lavs in the rear of the plane prior to initial descent.
I regularly fly the 316 seat 78X from ORD-GRU and there are four lavs for 44 Polaris suites, and there is ALWAYS a queue once people are awake. The 789 has 3 lavs for 48 which is even worse. 1 lav for the entire front of a cabin is an abomination for airlines touting these birds as a "premium" offerings. AA's 77Ws are losing 3 lavs and gaining more seats, so these supposed "upgraded" planes are really just to drive company revenue and make your actual flight worse. End rant
United 1K throwing shade at AA… got it. Enjoy your ‘complimentary’ Takeoff snackbox from the Exit Row after your PlusPoints fail to clear…
STFU
"if you’re flying this plane in a transatlantic market where there otherwise wouldn’t be nonstop flights, many people would find it worthwhile"
Exactly. Most commonly, I fly Halifax to Heathrow. I think all the options are actually 737, but I'll fly anything rather than fly back to Toronto or Montreal for an extra three hours flying time and a better seat.
That is an epic route for a 737. Saw Air Canada’s at LHR earlier this year. Was like, “hey, little dude, nice to see YOU here!” Way better than backtracking to YUL or YYZ.
The plane sucks. Doesnt matter who's operating it.
Thanks for the review. I've been tracking a JFK>LAX AA flight, and was considering giving J a try. It was slightly less than Mint, which I've flown transatlantic, but did not enjoy. Main cabin it is.
I have flown the XLR in business class a few times and really nothing wrong with it. Sounds like American wanted to cram the plane with every seat possible. Sounds like an American problem.
These AA planes actually use a slightlly different hard product then the Jetblue and Iberia planes with similar interiors - those aircraft both use the Thompson VantageSolo product, where as American is correctly quoted as using this Collins seat. Also, worth pointing out that the internet claims Jetblue uses a 35" pitch and Iveria a 34" pitch (may be the same but just rounded differently...), whereas on AA seems to be just 32".
AA is 29" pitch
No WAY would I fly without a window view.
I flew LAX-JFK in J on this aircraft a couple of weeks ago with my husband and 4 year old. The seat itself was comfortable, but I hate the herringbone seat layout. It's annoying as hell to need to get up while your tray and food are out and you can't just swivel over to the aisle as you could with a reverse herringbone. Luckily I only had to get up twice like this while...
I flew LAX-JFK in J on this aircraft a couple of weeks ago with my husband and 4 year old. The seat itself was comfortable, but I hate the herringbone seat layout. It's annoying as hell to need to get up while your tray and food are out and you can't just swivel over to the aisle as you could with a reverse herringbone. Luckily I only had to get up twice like this while my toddler was awake to help her with food and then she slept the rest of the flight. The seat might be great if you're travelling by yourself and just want to sleep, but this AA product isn't something I'd purposely choose for the seat.
It'll be interesting to see if AA updates the AEROLOPA. adding a mid cabin LAV and more MCE seating seems like a no brainer. UA fits 149 seats on theirs, so it'll cost a few seats but nothing major.
Narrow body aircraft on a trans atlantic flight. Enough said. Not for me
DC-8. 707.
@Goforride
Wow, you were alive then? Wasn't that like the 1800s...
Ben, I'm confused about the lav issue. Doesn't the A321T have one lav for about 20 J seats as well? At least that's all I saw when I flew it in J last week from LAX to JFK. Did I miss one--this ratio doesn't seem unique.
The problem is 1) the front Lav is also used by pilots and then becomes blocked off
2) on the A321T, J gets their own LAV
3) on the XLR, the other 3 restrooms are in the rear of the plane. So during meal service for economy, everyone comes forward, and PE also wants to come forward. So it's a much less pleasant experience for everyone.
PE needs to go back, and stay back. There's never a valid reason for any PE passenger to be wandering through biz because there's a wait for the economy class lavs. Boo hoo. Take a number.
Same problem on AF's 777 PE where they increased the number of seats from 32 to 48 and removed 2 lavatories at the very front of PE. PE passengers need to go to the back and fight some 260 Economy for 5 lavatories. AF strictly enforces "NO other passengers walking through Business Class" except for handicapped pax. Apparently, PE passengers do not like it and are fleeing in droves although it is hard to pinpoint...
Same problem on AF's 777 PE where they increased the number of seats from 32 to 48 and removed 2 lavatories at the very front of PE. PE passengers need to go to the back and fight some 260 Economy for 5 lavatories. AF strictly enforces "NO other passengers walking through Business Class" except for handicapped pax. Apparently, PE passengers do not like it and are fleeing in droves although it is hard to pinpoint the reason for failure of an exceptionally mediocre PE product.
The lav was in constant use when we flew J on the A321T last week. I can see from your comments how the XLR makes the situation even worse. Thanks.
On the A321T - you have two lavs for 30 people + pilots.
1 up front for the 10 in F + pilots. NEVER a line.
1 for 20 in J
and no PE.
If in row 5, the toilet behind in J is closer, but they prefer you use the F one...so at least there was an understanding on how to allow for decent foot traffic to the toilets.
30...
On the A321T - you have two lavs for 30 people + pilots.
1 up front for the 10 in F + pilots. NEVER a line.
1 for 20 in J
and no PE.
If in row 5, the toilet behind in J is closer, but they prefer you use the F one...so at least there was an understanding on how to allow for decent foot traffic to the toilets.
30 seats are covered by 2 - so not bad.
Now you force 20 to use 1 lav + pilots. PE have no lav - so sent to the back (probably impossible) and so this is an overall disaster....as they are heading to the front
32 + pilots for 1 toilet.
Keep in mind Economy is now twice as many seats as the A321T plus 12 more PE. WOW!
This is so nasty, so greedy. I'm really thinking about switching all my business to UA, and that makes me sad, because I cannot stand LH as a JV partner. I feel many are going to walk away from AA, and just get a status match over at UA or DL.
AA will need to rip out some seats, push PE back and provide 2 toilets for 32 people. More than likely, we will see some Y seats removed for another toilet.
They all do this. AA, QF. They really hate humans don't they.
Intercontinental flights on one isle plane is as uncomfortable as if you’re in a small car with your family plus uncle Joe on a trip from Chicago to LA.
The flights between Western Europe and New York in the old 757s, maybe 10 years ago, were perfectly fine in Business Class,
Great! Tim "Once Upon A Dunce" Deuce will be very happy!
Having just watched the video showcasing Cathay’s new regional J seat, what a difference. They even showcased the narrowbody model, which is reverse herringbone with giant footwells. That seat also could make overheads in the J cabin optional, which would go a long way to making a narrowbody feel less cramped.
AA should quit while they’re ahead and just go for that seat for the remaining deliveries. Or the ITA 321 J seat
When seated, these aircraft offer a similar proposition to a widebody.
The big problem on long flights is the number of toilets and access to them.
The only way to make it work is with a toilet at the front of mid cabin in economy.
I recently flew on a United 737 900ER, which had a toilet opposite row 7DEF.
Surely if United have done this on a 737, they would do it on their Airbus XLRs....which have a lot more range than a 737 900ER?
Didn’t Delta start this awful crap years ago trying to imitate QATAR ? it’s like a private coffin for midgets on aircrafts that are far to small
And like all companies with no brains they copy all of Deltas mistakes
Monkey see Monkey do alive and well
Less is more when your space is constrained
People complaining about business class ranks up on the annoying scale with gate lice lining up before their group is called
Why? If you are paying for a premium product should it not meet expectations? These are not cheap flights. Many of them will be a few to several thousand dollars roundtrip. If someone pays that much it seems reasonable they should have relatively easy access to the loo and shouldn't have to stow the IFE just to eat.
This doesn't sound like an AA fail so much as it's a design flaw that was exacerbated...
Why? If you are paying for a premium product should it not meet expectations? These are not cheap flights. Many of them will be a few to several thousand dollars roundtrip. If someone pays that much it seems reasonable they should have relatively easy access to the loo and shouldn't have to stow the IFE just to eat.
This doesn't sound like an AA fail so much as it's a design flaw that was exacerbated by AA's decision-making. Regardless, this is enough to get me to avoid these planes. Sorry, but I'm not interested passengers stopping past me all night while I'm trying to sleep.
You’re arguing with a socialist, which is fruitless.
Why are you here?
As you said, the plane was not designed for passenger comfort it was designed to maximize economics.
Why they didn't go reverse herringbone on their A321s like ITA and Etihad did I will never understand. People have been complaining about facing away from the windows on Virgin Atlantic for 20 years now.
Reverse Herringbone will need to be pitched way higher than the 29" of this Collins aurora to be complaint with regulations of having at least 9" of regress (door/entrance space).
Herringbone facing the aisle can just have a smaller footwell and with a tighter pitch still be complaint with regulations.
This just vindicates Aer Lingus's decision on the cabin layout in the A321XLR. I agree with the other poster that airlines appear to be prioritising privacy over comfort and space in their J layouts.
Probably because bloggers (like Lucky) have been bitching for almost a decade when they fly J without a door! Airlines are listening, just to the wrong pax.
Love to fly. AA Advantage Member. Heading to London in August. Will NOT book a single aisle plane. 787-8 or 9 or 10, or 777 for me in Premium Economy or First if points allow would be a much better choice regardless of airline..
Woah… an AA “member”… *rolls out red carpet*
That's the issue, its a narrowbody. There's only so much space that can be used and still make the plane profitable. Not to mention you're talking about 5-6 hour block time. Not exactly like a 14 hour flight from JFK to NRT.
Come and spend a bit a time doing a red eye LAX/MIA in domestic first in an A321neo. You'd really have something to complain about.
Finally, George actually gets it right.
People flying business class and complaining about things ranks up on the annoying scale with the gate lice people lining up before their group is called
I can't remember who SAS uses on their business class on widebody Airbus planes, but absolutely my best experience of business class ever. Two laboratories forward for business class and pilot's use...as well as for the 4 flight attendants. Midship there was a food service galley area serving both the business class and economy.. none of the restrictions of the American configuration of TV and Windows and we were one two one configuration. It's amazing...
I can't remember who SAS uses on their business class on widebody Airbus planes, but absolutely my best experience of business class ever. Two laboratories forward for business class and pilot's use...as well as for the 4 flight attendants. Midship there was a food service galley area serving both the business class and economy.. none of the restrictions of the American configuration of TV and Windows and we were one two one configuration. It's amazing how many companies don't listen to their customers before they spend millions! VOC And thee three P's... Purpose, process and payoff!
Aren't you supposed to stop patronizing businesses when you're unhappy?
It's a narrow body. What did you expect? Something had to give.
No..it isnt had and yes it is much nicer than products they have now. The negative comments are from whiny little b$&@^es who have no life and nothing else to do but complain. Get over yourselves.
just another shitty US based airline, who can't seem to do anything right... do these executive not use their expense account and fly other global airlines to see what others are doing ? apparently not... PS the overheads are out of the 90s, they don't even allow upright positioning of the luggage. Once again, AA is the worst
1 toilet between 20 seems fine? Even if all 20 use the toilet on a 2 hour flight that's more than enough?
Presumably it's a worse ratio for economy, why do they deserve less toilet space? Just utterly entitled whining from people who think money means they are better people
It’s more the fact that their normal A321s have mid-cabin lavs, while for some reason this version (which has a PE cabin) doesn’t have one
Was it really that terrible compared to a Delta one 763?
The initial complaint reminds me of the placement of the charging port in United premium economy. No one can find it! For the entire flight, you hear people asking the flight attendants.
The tray table thing is an issue on many airlines. When they dont touch the opposite side, they feel too flimsy. And when they dont move much, plus size people cant even use them
This is less about the plane or even the seat. AA (and IB) chose the shortest pitch possible (29" I think) which exacerbates this coffin feeling. If they chose 34-35" pitch, it would be a world of difference. Same with lavatories and galley configuration.
Look at the same plane with ITA or Etihad, they chose better seats with more pitch and more lavatories and customers love them.
And the flight attendants hate the aircraft too!
I recently flew First from JFK to LAX on the A321T, and got to chat with the flight attendants about the new XLR, and they absolutely hate working that aircraft, because the aisle is way too tight, and they have to police the passengers as to when they can watch their entertainment system (i.e., no watching during meal service) which obviously the passengers dislike profoundly, combined...
And the flight attendants hate the aircraft too!
I recently flew First from JFK to LAX on the A321T, and got to chat with the flight attendants about the new XLR, and they absolutely hate working that aircraft, because the aisle is way too tight, and they have to police the passengers as to when they can watch their entertainment system (i.e., no watching during meal service) which obviously the passengers dislike profoundly, combined with the crowded galley since there is only one bathroom.
So, in summary, nobody is happy, which is SO VERY SAD for a new product.
Total bull. No reason passengers can't watch entertainment when meal service is being conducted. This just sounds like typical unionite whining. Why would you honestly believe that passengers can't look at a screen mounted on the seatback in front of them?
This is going to end badly, with some dragon unionized FA DEMANDING that the passenger close the screen and that passenger rightly refusing. Words will be exchanged, the police will be waiting on arrival (that is is the captain does not decide to land sooner), and there will be A LOT of media / public relations attention.
One more nail in AA's present management's coffin, how many will be necessary?
Ben, your review (which will...
This is going to end badly, with some dragon unionized FA DEMANDING that the passenger close the screen and that passenger rightly refusing. Words will be exchanged, the police will be waiting on arrival (that is is the captain does not decide to land sooner), and there will be A LOT of media / public relations attention.
One more nail in AA's present management's coffin, how many will be necessary?
Ben, your review (which will echo through the industry) and probably several others will generate a major setback for AA. I for one shall not fly on this plane in this configuration. (I totally enjoyed the Aer Lingus version in Business and even Iberia's was manageable). Lucky coincidence, I am now Emerald for Life. This essentially means that I do not have to fly AA anymore. After being loyal for over *&ty years, I start to evaluate the competing products and it is interesting, sometimes even very pleasant (at least with several carriers).
Because it's not in the seatbacke - it folds out so it does indeed block access for the FAs.
No space for the tray, it has nothing to do about FA whining.
AA's bean counters want you to focus on that slop you're overpaying for.
Did United to write this? People love Jetblue Mint Suites.
I think I would rather sit in Premium Economy on most routes in this configuration. They aren't using these planes for that long of flights. I feel like business class products have been focused on providing privacy above space and comfort in recent years. From a pure seat comfort perspective, I think the most comfortable business class seat I have flown was the United 777-200 2-4-2 configuration. That product has tons of other drawbacks, but...
I think I would rather sit in Premium Economy on most routes in this configuration. They aren't using these planes for that long of flights. I feel like business class products have been focused on providing privacy above space and comfort in recent years. From a pure seat comfort perspective, I think the most comfortable business class seat I have flown was the United 777-200 2-4-2 configuration. That product has tons of other drawbacks, but I will take that over claustrophobia.
It looks like this is a discount quality product. As long as American advertises the new business class as such and prices accordingly that's fine. Unfortunately this is American we're talking about though, so doing the right or even sensible thing is unlikely.
Flew on AA's XLR roundtrip JFK-LAX in PE. First row is where it's all. Pretty comfy. Even managed to sleep on the red eye. While I didn't appreciate the trek to the restrooms in the back, I didn't have to wait either.
What a silly comment in the article that 20 passengers and pilots only use the forward toilet. Do the Cabin crew working in the forward galley not use the toilet as well.
Ben,
You forgot to mention this fact, and that's because you never sit in coach let alone know where it is. The seat pitch on this aircraft that AA has is about 32in, and i found that perfectly fine for the transcon flight. Infact I could easily do another 2 hours on this seat configuration going trans Atlantic. Now I would rather sot in premium econ in thois config than business class. I do...
Ben,
You forgot to mention this fact, and that's because you never sit in coach let alone know where it is. The seat pitch on this aircraft that AA has is about 32in, and i found that perfectly fine for the transcon flight. Infact I could easily do another 2 hours on this seat configuration going trans Atlantic. Now I would rather sot in premium econ in thois config than business class. I do find those BC seats to be too tight, and I prefer a window and dont want to twist my neck
The pitch is 31", same as all the other int'l aircraft AA has. Nothing special here.
US airlines = the way the country thinks of itself
Wouldn't exist if it wasn't for protectionism
Regarding the seats being tight, how fat do Americans want and need to be?
Americans are fat, so our airlines should be more accommodating. I had a seat on an older Delta 767 where I couldn't lay flat because my shoulders wouldn't fit.
Or you could lose weight, instead of whining like a fat orange pig
It’s not about big bellies. My arms need to go somewhere! The walls are the issue. I’m 6’3” and 160 lbs. I’d rather fly economy than this trollop
What airlines would exist without protectionism?
@Chad Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair, Air Asia.
But for long-haul, and if one includes things like historic slot allocations as protectionism, you make an excellent point.
An interesting thought experiment is what would happen in a free market.
Would ME3/CX/SQ be interested in operations that brought no activity to their hub locations?
Would global standards fall to American service approach (as with tech privacy) or to Ryanair-style cost-paring?
@Albert,
I tend to think that you'll end up with 2 ends of the spectrum, on one end you'll get more discount airlines like Ryanair that knickle and dim everything but customers go in knowing what they're in for.
Then on the other end, you'll end proper full service airlines like CX, SQ, ANA, JAL, etc. who people are willing to pay up a bit more for to have better comfort and service.
@Albert,
I tend to think that you'll end up with 2 ends of the spectrum, on one end you'll get more discount airlines like Ryanair that knickle and dim everything but customers go in knowing what they're in for.
Then on the other end, you'll end proper full service airlines like CX, SQ, ANA, JAL, etc. who people are willing to pay up a bit more for to have better comfort and service.
The ones that will be forced to pick a side are airlines like BA, AA, etc. who are discount airlines masking as full service - but will struggle because they don't have the existing experience to provide the service that have become standard in a lot of proper full service ones.
Repurpose these for more day time flights to Europe
Ben, the visceral reaction you witnessed is the inevitable result of Mission Profile Mismatch.
American (and United) fell into the trap of treating the A321XLR as a direct replacement for 757/767s on existing trunk routes, rather than what Airbus designed it for: opening new, thin secondary markets where the "nonstop" factor outweighs the hard product. When you deploy this asset on JFK-LAX or JFK-LHR, you are competing against widebody expectations with a narrowbody compromise.
The...
Ben, the visceral reaction you witnessed is the inevitable result of Mission Profile Mismatch.
American (and United) fell into the trap of treating the A321XLR as a direct replacement for 757/767s on existing trunk routes, rather than what Airbus designed it for: opening new, thin secondary markets where the "nonstop" factor outweighs the hard product. When you deploy this asset on JFK-LAX or JFK-LHR, you are competing against widebody expectations with a narrowbody compromise.
The engineering constraints of the XLR—specifically the rear center tank and the Airbus Cabin Flex (ACF) door logic—force brutal trade-offs. To make the CASM math work against soaring pilot labor costs, AA had to densify the J cabin to 20 seats. But in doing so, they maximized the LOPA (Layout of Passenger Accommodations) at the expense of the psychological experience. A herringbone layout in a single-aisle tube creates a "coffin" effect that no amount of door privacy can fix.
This is precisely why Delta’s decision to pass on the XLR in favor of extending the 767-300ER/400ER and A330neo fleets is validating itself in real-time. Delta recognized that High-Value Customers (HVCs) on premium transcons aren't just buying a flat bed; they are paying for air volume and flow. A dual-aisle aircraft absorbs the chaos of service carts and lavatory queues in a way a narrowbody simply cannot.
American built a plane for PHL-Naples and deployed it on JFK-Los Angeles. The market will punish this. I expect these frames to be exiled to secondary transatlantic seasonal routes within 18 months, while Delta continues to dominate the premium transcon yields with proper widebody lift.
well said.
and let's remember that DL started the post covid increase in wages across all workforces after AA and UA committed to the XLR.
Kirby and co. love to say that ULCC models don't work at current labor rates but few are willing to consider that higher labor costs make some of the things that AA and UA do no longer economically viable.
DL's decision to fly fewer ASMs - which means leaving...
well said.
and let's remember that DL started the post covid increase in wages across all workforces after AA and UA committed to the XLR.
Kirby and co. love to say that ULCC models don't work at current labor rates but few are willing to consider that higher labor costs make some of the things that AA and UA do no longer economically viable.
DL's decision to fly fewer ASMs - which means leaving some lower profit business on the table - is what allows them to be as profitable as they are.
Even the Euro carriers aren't trying to put lie flat business plus premium economy plus economy and have more than 150 seats which is what it takes to keep CASM from going off the charts.
At Tim aka NickW.
100% wrong.
"This is precisely why Delta’s decision to pass on the XLR in favor of extending the 767-300ER/400ER and A330neo fleets is validating itself in real-time. "
So do tell us Nostradamus, what airplane is DL going to replace the ancient 767s with on these transcon markets? Let me guess, the A350-1000!
HVC are corporate slaves and will fly whoever they are told to fly. They might not like...
At Tim aka NickW.
100% wrong.
"This is precisely why Delta’s decision to pass on the XLR in favor of extending the 767-300ER/400ER and A330neo fleets is validating itself in real-time. "
So do tell us Nostradamus, what airplane is DL going to replace the ancient 767s with on these transcon markets? Let me guess, the A350-1000!
HVC are corporate slaves and will fly whoever they are told to fly. They might not like the seat, but they'll get over it for a 5 hour flight. And AA and UA know it.
Let's hope Delta uses the A350-1000 to replace their 767s. They would get my business over these horrible aisle-facing seats every time. I've flown hundreds of transoceanic business and first class segments, and only one of those was in this type of seat (Virgin Atlantic). It will hopefully be the last. I would prefer a DL 767-400 over these any day.
Why MUST American always suck? Can they do anything right? It's like they are...
Let's hope Delta uses the A350-1000 to replace their 767s. They would get my business over these horrible aisle-facing seats every time. I've flown hundreds of transoceanic business and first class segments, and only one of those was in this type of seat (Virgin Atlantic). It will hopefully be the last. I would prefer a DL 767-400 over these any day.
Why MUST American always suck? Can they do anything right? It's like they are trying to be horrible. "Going for awful!"
What you're really saying is that Boeing messed up (and they did); Airbus is winning off this; XLR is a reasonable replacement for the 757 (not the 767, that's where 339 or 787 comes in); as 220 is for 717, another example of Airbus eating Boeing's lunch.
All said, I'm convinced NickW is commenter Mike Hunt from VFTW, and, oddly, Tim is quick to reply, in agreement, here, as there, quite often.
If the first two comments are really from different people I will eat my hat.
Eat your hat.
I don’t wear a hat, but the linguist in me is mighty sus.
Hi, tim…
I’m not going to be satisfied with the review or enjoy the comments until 1990 says something.
Your rent is past-due!! Pay up!!
Shut up you toolbag. It’s not your blog.
Do majority of those who fly really look at the aircraft type before booking ? It’s not that we have too many choices either.
Majority? No absolutely not. Do some of us myself included actually check the type of plane for long routes and factor that into booking decisions? Absolutely.
I'm with NYGuy24. I definitely check which aircraft is scheduled to operate a service before I book.
The attraction of the XLR is the way the fuel tankage is designed to maximise freight capacity in contrast to the standard LR. I won't go into a long-winded technical explanation here, that information is available elsewhere, but suffice to say it's a significant benefit. The way that American chooses to configure its cabins has nothing to do with Airbus. If customers are unhappy with their service, start flying with someone else. The problem is...
The attraction of the XLR is the way the fuel tankage is designed to maximise freight capacity in contrast to the standard LR. I won't go into a long-winded technical explanation here, that information is available elsewhere, but suffice to say it's a significant benefit. The way that American chooses to configure its cabins has nothing to do with Airbus. If customers are unhappy with their service, start flying with someone else. The problem is that customers are slaves to the loyalty program and would rather complain endlessly than actually vote with their feet, and American knows it. That's why they keep playing y'all for chumps, and getting away with it.
OT, but why is your enterainment screen saying "weicome" in Finnish?
I experienced this aircraft and will be avoiding it. Yet another own-goal from American.
We are truly bereft of good airline options in this country -- the crew have always been awful but now they are taking the hard product too.
I know I'm biased, but transcons should ONLY be flown by wide-bodies. I tolerated the previous A321T's because it was a much more modern product than the old 762's. But this is such a needless misstep. You don't need the extra range from the XLR on a transcon flight and the benefit of more space on an widebody naturally lends itself to feel more premium. I can't believe I'd rather fly Delta's old ass 763 over a brand new seat.
I have a hard time believing this. People don’t speak like this to complete strangers. Even in Economy people rarely complain to strangers. Especially the hooking up part, that’s unhinged behavior. This reads like those made up redditor stories.
I’m surprised this blog post didn’t end with Scott Kirby bursting through the gate giving out free COASTLINER upgrades (and then everybody clapped).
I thought the same thing while reading the article. It is as if the author was just narrating what he assumes other passengers thinking. Kind of a cartoonish soliloquy.
American's, after a few glasses of wine, would absolutely speak to complete strangers like this.
Conveniently the passengers also mentioned the exact talking points regarding the seat and corporate approach of AA, what are the odds?!
Would have been sufficient to just write an opinion piece on the seat without made up conversations indeed.
So when I first saw photos of these I feared they were a redo of the Cathay Upper Deck 747 Herringbone Biz class seats....incredibly uncomfortable from the torso upwards due to the narrow nature of the seat and the side walls. Ben, have my fears been confirmed?
I have found jetBlue's Mint suites to be very comfortable on transcon and Europe-NYC routes. Will be interesting to assess actual measurements and see how much is perception vs reality vs B6/IB. Regardless, I do hope AA will modify these to at least include 5-6 rows of MCE. DL and UA are planning a better product in back for their transcon sub-fleets.
XLR seems comparable to the newer B6 Mint. More MCE would be an improvement. Regular economy is already better than most AA narrowbodies because they actually have IFE screens on XLR, like the a321T did (and, now, free WiFi). These aircraft are already more like Delta with all those 'amenities'... *cough*
I flew UA Polaris on a 787 for the very first time last month, and I thought the seat was the worst biz class in a long time (the Polaris lounges at IAD and EWR on the other hand were great although BA's lounge in MIA is better IMHO).
My main complaint with Polaris (besides the very mediocre service) was that the entry from the aisle was extremely narrow. I wonder how the AA 321XLR compares in terms of the width of the entryway.
Apparently, you've never flown UA's 772 with the 2-4-2 rear-facing lie-flat actual 'coffin' seats. Sure, lie-flat is better than recliner which is better than a middle seat in the last row of economy with no recline near an over-flowing lavatory... but, to complain about Polaris on 787... who are you? Tim Dunn??
There are people that aren't part of the UA cult that see UA for what it is just as should be the case for every company or idea.
Polaris is a high density product and you need only look at the amount of seats they put in the same space as other carriers with other business class products to see that you can put fancy words around any product but it all kinds down to...
There are people that aren't part of the UA cult that see UA for what it is just as should be the case for every company or idea.
Polaris is a high density product and you need only look at the amount of seats they put in the same space as other carriers with other business class products to see that you can put fancy words around any product but it all kinds down to space.
AA and UA are some of the few global airlines that are trying to offer a smaller version of a widebody on a narrowbody.
Other carriers like B6 don't do a premium economy and so manage to get enough seats to matter. AA and UA are squeezing seats in order to make it all fit.
Note that DL is the only one of the big 3 (IIRC) that has less than 150 seats on their premium configured A321NEO
Tim, UA's Polaris (the real ones, not 757 or the old 772), AA's Flagship Business/First (787, 772, 773) and these new Flagship Suites, newer DeltaOne (on 359, 339, 764), and newer Mint, are all great and relatively comparable; they're the best hard products in the US, today. Why you trash actual Polaris is odd.
I have only walked past D1 but have flown AA's Flagship Biz, which I think is superior to Polaris (onboard hard and soft product), even on their older 772s. Even Iberia's BC is better IMHO! And let's not even bother comparing to the Asian carriers or BA's updated Club World suites...
It's awesome having the narrow entrance to the seat. It's almost like a door without the hassle of the door. And even better it might get fat people to fly a different airline!
UA seat is by far the best to sleep in, compared to NA airlines.
Also the blankets pillows ECT and PJs and mattress pad are light years better than the other NA carriers. AC as an example give you a cheesecloth mattress pad and an air bladder that always fails.
Why is reverse herringbone slightly less space efficient than herringbone?
This is the one thing I wish they'd done differently. Like, facing the window would've been better, in my opinion. Old a321T Flagship First faced the windows. Not sure why they went with this instead.
The issue with reverse herringbone on a narrow body aircraft is that the angle of the seat to the fuselage wall means that it's very difficult to access the seat from the aisle. You will notice that some airlines cut a corner off the edge of the seat cushion to make it easier to access the seat from the aisle.
You can see it at 5:15 in this video for the CX aria studio https://youtu.be/-n5sbUSTLZI
Look how the aisle to seat layout angle needs to change from a wide body to a narrow body for the reverse herringbone.
I believe you have to leave a small space (or path) for the reverse herringbone to allow pax to enter their seats; on the other hand, the herringbone allows pax to sit down directly from the aisle as the seat actually faces toward the aisle.
I really hated this plane! I now call it coffin class. The business seats are so narrow that sitting sideways on takeoff my head hit the wall. How could they sacrifice the windows? That decision is unforgivable. The first class lavatory was inoperable for the duration of my flight. This plane was a huge disappointment. Someone should be fired.
Ok, Mr. Amex... sure...
I don’t think this is a problem with the plane. It is more a problem that American and United (and Qantas too) took too big of a swing trying to create a very dense layout… and the compromise was too much for the passengers. They will most likely backtrack, as I don’t think passengers are quite ready for such a squeeze. JetBlue’s A321LR is a fine ride and everyone seems fine with it.
Do Iberia and Jet Blue require passengers to stow their television during meal service? I bet not.
Iberia did not when I flew the same plane last month.
This is a result of American having awful crew as usual. If they can't lean over a screen to provide meal service, how can they possibly be fit enough to assist in an emergency?
Time to clean house.
Looks fine to me.
American needs to clean house at corporate.
I flew in the Iberia version of this in January. Honestly, my biggest complaint about the layout is that all the plebs need to walk through business class in order to reach their seats. This meant no pre-flight beverage service because the aisle was clogged with poors. Did this happen with AA too?
My gosh, if a literal lie-flat suite with a door (*soon to be operable) on a narrowbody isn't enough distance from the so-called 'peasants'... you probably should just pay to fly yourself private.
@AJ, Plebs LOL
Iberia does not usually give pre-departure drinks in Business.
Really Ben? New aircraft, new cabins and yet no improvement. One has to laugh …. people call AI out for being a poor ride and a third world airline. Can American even compete with AI?
AI is horrible airline with very poor safety records. You must be insane to fly them...
Huh? Are you joking?
@AeroB13a
The aircraft is not to be blamed. How comfortable the aircraft is depends on how they are configured by the airlines operating them.
If you fly SIA or CX in their economy class they are comfrotable because they are 3-3-3 but if you fly some airlines with 3-4-3 on the A350s then it is a totally different experience. The same goes with business class on the A380 of Emirates vs BA/Lufthansa. BA/Lufthansa business class sucks.
They look like cages
Also less MCE seats. Terrible decisions and i’ve already tried to avoid this on the JFK to SFO route.
You're gonna make Peter's day. He's a huge MCE advocate.
Brett did it! He made my day… by pointing out yet another obvious failure of this plane! The XLR is a plane that is optimized for cargo with the RCT. The way AA configured it is really not great.
Got downgraded to a 787P in two months and watched the 4 MCE seats I booked turn into 3 because… no MCE on that plane either!
It’s almost as if AA has bad leadership or something.
Hey Ben, I was just on this aircraft with Iberia, no doors. Don't think you need to edit this post, but more a FYI.
Judging from the pictures, the walls in JetBlue's Mint are much lower. When you have walls on both sides, you don't want them to be too high.
Is that the only real difference between the Flagship Suite and newer Mint? If so, these are great, because Mint is excellent. More privacy (higher walls) seems better, not worse.
I love the plane would fly it again in a heartbeat.
Further proof that time is cyclical and that AA never learns. Anyone remember the Oasis disaster?
This is nothing like Oasis. These are lie-flat suites; Oasis was recliners and economy without IFE. The Flagship Suite on the XLR is leaps and bounds better than Oasis, and honestly, nothing like it.
?
You're missing the point. AA yet again rolled out a crappy, untested product that will get terrible net promoter scores and require (expensive) modification to correct.
Looking forward to the full review. I booked the XLR for my flight home (via LAX) after a long trip to Asia in September (also extending the trip one more night to do so). Maybe I'll just take the nonstop home instead and skip the overnight, but have plenty of time to decide.
This doesn't surprise me -- from the perspective of a normal flyer who doesn't obsess over these things as much as we do, the key difference here is it's a narrow body plane, and that feels much more cramped. Passengers are absolutely going to prefer wide bodies. Of course, a passenger would probably prefer a narrow-body direct flight over a wide-body connecting flight, but like I flew the A321XLR from IAD to MAD -- that's not exactly a marginal route!
The premium economy seat looks much more appealing than business class.
By all means, please, give up your lie-flat for a recliner... oh wise one...
I'm actually with him. If I'm flying JFK-LAX during the daytime and don't need to sleep, I would be much more interested in (say) flying Premium Economy paying 40k miles than flying a crappy J product and paying 80k (often much more than that I imagine).
-Can sit next to my wife and talk to her
-Can look out the window
-Can watch the movie while I eat my meal
-Looks honestly more spacious
Wonderful, Jimmy. Please, give up your lie-flat. More for those of us who want to actually sleep on a redeye. Have fun in the back with your wives! Psh.
Except there’s no mid-cabin lav. So in PE you’re walking to the back of the packed bus to use one of the 3 cramped bathrooms they put back there.
Why fly this product over a competitor? I don’t get the pitch.
Speaking of pitch, I still do not see the XLR listed on AA’s plane stat page. I know that page 2 of a pdf in the newsroom claims economy pitch is 32” but...
Except there’s no mid-cabin lav. So in PE you’re walking to the back of the packed bus to use one of the 3 cramped bathrooms they put back there.
Why fly this product over a competitor? I don’t get the pitch.
Speaking of pitch, I still do not see the XLR listed on AA’s plane stat page. I know that page 2 of a pdf in the newsroom claims economy pitch is 32” but will be fascinated once the stats are posted more publicly (if it really is 32” of pitch in economy, why wouldn’t AA be touting that?)
Peter, we're gonna have to fly it, bring measuring tape, and report back. I'm rooting for more MCE, regardless!
I just don't understand why I would choose to fly AA in economy from JFK-LAX versus a DL 767.
The 321Ts had tons of MCE and an economy cabin that felt intimate at 72pax total. Kind of "fun" to fly and a good upgrade ratio as an economy passenger. The XLR is supposed to open up long and thin routes, not just be long and cramped on premier routings.
Could fly DL on a 767...
I just don't understand why I would choose to fly AA in economy from JFK-LAX versus a DL 767.
The 321Ts had tons of MCE and an economy cabin that felt intimate at 72pax total. Kind of "fun" to fly and a good upgrade ratio as an economy passenger. The XLR is supposed to open up long and thin routes, not just be long and cramped on premier routings.
Could fly DL on a 767 in 2-3-2, get the same 31-32" and be more comfortable, no? Plus more PE seating, more C+ seating... why choose AA? A new IFE screen? It's not like the price is usually much different. Not getting access to Greenwich unless you're actually flying business (and if actually flying business, D1 is better than Greenwich).
And what's the pitch in business - hey, we know those DL 767 business seats are narrow and cramped, so here's one where you can't see out the window and have privacy, but you're going to feel like you're in a narrow and cramped space - enjoy!
Yeah I'll try one at some point and bring the tape measure, but just not pretending this is some panacea.
Specifically stated a westbound day flight but hey, by all means get immature instead of having an actual discussion
An 'actual discussion'? Like they one you'll be having with your spouse in those recliners? Aww.
You are correct and I would pick PE as well for the reasons you listed. Ignore the divas that think that only the "best" or most expensive can satisfy their delusional egos.
STFU
trying to put a smaller ratio of what is on a widebody on a narrowbody just isn't going to work for all the reasons you mention.
DL is going w/ a much smaller number of A321NEOs for domestic premium use than AA and UA.
Given that the A321XLR has fairly poor takeoff performance, there really is no operational advantage to a narrowbody other than fewer seats which just results in higher unit costs that a widebody can easily beat
And yet, it's objectively better to have lie-flat than a recliner or an economy middle seat. So, these 'whiners' that Ben described are really silly; it's more likely that they just couldn't handle 'change.'
it's a compromised solution. and people don't see compromise as progress, nor should they.
Tim, I don't care which airline it is... ALL of them that target the premium market should have lie-flat up-front, including narrowbodies and widebodies, especially if operating 5+ hour flights on redeyes, like these XLR, 737max can and should do. To resort to mere recliners is weak.
thankfully, the people that have to be given the capital to run airlines have to at least create the idea that they can use assets to make money.
You prove that you are a socialist and not in any way capable of running anything.
Tim, this has nothing to do with economic theories; it has everything to do with offering the best available premium product for passengers. If Delta's gonna revert to more recliners while American, United, and jetBlue do more lie-flat, wave goodbye to that premium customer.
"You prove that you are a socialist" - what?? By saying that all premium seats on transcons should have lie flat seats. Yes, very socialisms.
I’ve flown in J on the XLR. It’s a perfectly fine product. I’m 6’1” and 180. I’m sure the people complaining about the size of the seat are what the industry calls “customers of size”
Ben, you've flown jetBlue's newer Mint, which has a very similar configuration and seat (1:1). How is this really all that different? I like that, and perhaps, people are just whining for the sake of whining. It's also not that different from Flagship First on the old a321T (1:1), just a little narrower.
If you read the article, you would have picked up on what Ben says the differences are: JetBlue Mint isn't pitched quite as tight and there's two lavs in the front of the aircraft.
I'd argue that it is in fact quite a bifferent from 32T Flagship First given that aircraft also has two lavs in the general area (forward and mid-cabin) and it's a reverse herringbone configuration.
If only I could read... No, my question is beyond what Ben already wrote.
Ok, so, to you, Taylor, it's all about the lavs, eh? Well, fact check: Not all newer Mint have the two lavs in front (yes, 3NL type does have 2 in-front, but, 3NS types does not; it has 1 in front, 1 behind Mint at engines).
Compared to the a321T, I'd argue XLR is better, simply, because it's not falling...
If only I could read... No, my question is beyond what Ben already wrote.
Ok, so, to you, Taylor, it's all about the lavs, eh? Well, fact check: Not all newer Mint have the two lavs in front (yes, 3NL type does have 2 in-front, but, 3NS types does not; it has 1 in front, 1 behind Mint at engines).
Compared to the a321T, I'd argue XLR is better, simply, because it's not falling apart. Several times in the past couple years I've literally had broken seats in F that had to be manually lowered to lie-flat and raised by crew for landing.