United Airlines has reached an exciting milestone. At this point, all Boeing 767-400s in service feature the carrier’s new(ish) Polaris seats. This also means that United has completed its Polaris retrofit project, which is a pretty major feat.
Continue reading: All United 767-400s Now Have New Polaris Seats
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
I don't understand why they fly these to NAP. It's a leisure destination and I book clients on it all the time since it's the only nonstop option from NY, and they can't stand that they cannot sit next to each other because of the 1-1-1 config. On such a popular (albeit seasonal) route, why not fly a 787 or something better for couples/families?
I am very glad for this development because I can now fly EWR-HNL nonstop on UA. The old config was too claustrophobic.
You just said the answer to your question basically, "It's a leisure destination." The 767-400 makes the most sense because it has lower capacity compared to their other planes that could fly this route. They are not going to put a plane such as the 787 or 777 or even 767-300er that has more premium capacity on a leisure-oriented route where there is not high yielding premium demand, as compared to other destinations where an a/c can be more profitably utilized.
first, UA's 764s, like DL's, are about 22 years old which means they likely have 10 or fewer years left. Reconfiguring the entire aircraft cabin is costly so the aircraft will probably need to stay in service into the 2030s in order to recoup the cost.
second, the 764 is essentially best at 10 hour flights. It can do longer flights such as EWR-HNL but the cabin should be reflective of what is necessary for a flight of that length.
third, UA has repeatedly said they will use some of their 787 order to replace their 767s. While their 767-300s won't make it to 2030, they could use part of the order to replace the 764s in the early 2030s - so the 100 new 787s won't be all for growth. Or they could use 787s to start replacing 777-200/ERs which are much older and less efficient than 767-400s.
fourth having at least one lav at the back of business class avoids asking premium economy passengers to use a regular economy lav.
and finally, DL's previous 764 configuration did not have a lav up front and they have not put one back up front which helps w/ security by reducing the distance pilots need to go to get to the lav. Given that the FAA is now requiring double cockpit barriers, at least on new aircraft, it is possible for pilots to leave the cockpit and remain behind a second barrier which cannot be done when all lavs are behind business class.
Quick question: Which routes do these planes usually fly in United's network? To leisure destinations?
This is not accurate. I just flew EWR to Madrid July 4th and it was a 767-400 with the 2-1-2 configuration in J. It also shows this same configuration next Tuesday.
They are still old crusty 767s with outdated 2-2 seating
Just like 757, Boeing needs to stop production of 767 and focus on fixing problems of 737 Max, and 787
The 3 flagship planes 737, 777 and 787 are good money makers for Boeing. With air travel on rise, they need to make 777 bigger and more fuel efficient to compete with Airbus 380
@ Etravelstheworld -- The flight you were on was the last 767-400 not to be reconfigured. That's the jet now flying to Hong Kong, so it's out of passenger service.
United just hasn't updated seatmaps for some 767-400 routes yet. As you'll see, within a few days of departure the EWR-MAD route now consistently shows the new configuration. The same should happen for flights next week soon.
since I numbered them and they are all distinct, the points are obvious.
Whether you agree w/ them or not is something you are free to discuss.
If you want a bottom line summary, it is that UA is either likely going to lose money on the renovation of the 764 cabins or keep them into the 2030s. Given that the 764 is younger than multiple other UA widebody fleet types, they may hold onto the 764s to retire other fleets but they have no choice but to use some of their 787 order - which many have tried to argue is solely for growth - to replace large portions of its widebody fleet.
"Reconfiguring the entire flight of 767-400s in well under a year isn’t half bad."
I think you meant to say Fleet 🙂
it's also worth noting that UA started reconfiguring their fleet into Polaris almost 10 years ago and started the 767 fleets many years ago as well.
They have recently had to cancel flights because there are too many 764s that didn't get back from Asia where they are being reconfigured.
Dropping an article the day the last non-Polaris aircraft does a revenue flight is only part of the story.
What are you talking about?
Boeing hasn't built a passenger 767 in almost a decade, and they already have a larger 777 in certification trials.
In spite of fleet inconsistencies, the one thing that can be relied upon is United's catering. Mmm-mmm-good.
I understand your reply as it pertains to most "leisure" destinations. This route is different though, and it is certainly premium heavy. It's fully of tri-staters and others who want the easy non-stop to NAP going to Capri, the Amalfi coast, and other very "premium" destinations. At least between June - Sep. they could absolutely sell out J, especially since they don't have any competition. Very few are flying this route solo, so it would be nice to have the option to put couples together.
What is Delta going to do with Delta One transcon? It would appear that its 767-300s are stuck with the outdated seats. Any sense of when something nicer shows up? Unless and until this changes, I'll be avoiding Delta for transcon. Thanks for your thoughts.
It's a feature design of chatGPTim, you get bunch of what the fluff.
Auto responds to anything remotely linked to Delta.
Oh and it claims to be living rent free.
You missed the part about Delta being the best airline too, your standards are slipping
DL execs said on their investor conference a week or so ago that they plan to reduce the number of 767-300ERs to "the mid 30s" after next summer which implies that they are going to use their 9 A330-900 deliveries next year to replace most if not all of the oldest 12 767-300ERs. Also, DL is going to begin receiving A321NEOs w/ Delta One seating next fall so the timing of a 767-300ER drawdown could coincide w/ replacement of part of the JFK-LAX flights (which is almost all 767s and uses about 10 aircraft) to a combination of A321NEOs w/ lie flats and A330s or 764s.
Supposedly most of the remaining 767-300ERs have Premium Select but they still will likely be removed from service by 2030.
The point is that DL and UA's 767-300ER fleet will be the same size at about 35 after next summer and both fleets will run out of flight time by 2030.
With a new widebody order that will include either the 339 or 787, DL will replace the 763 fleet while UA will have to use part of its 100 787s to at least replace the 763s.
As for the "outdatedness" of the 763 business class cabin, some people cannot accept that having the right product for a market is what makes revenue and not having a consistent business class product.
DL has a Delta One product w/ doors and suites on its A330-900s and A350s while AA and have none. both are supposedly in the process of starting the process of putting doors on their business class products.
UA doesn't have a Polaris product on its 757s and they are still flying transatlantic so it isn't even accurate that UA has a consistent longhaul product. AA doesn't have 757s and DL doesn't use its 757s for flights over 8 hours.
so, the notion of product consistency at any of the big 3 is a myth but the market also does not say that the same business class product is needed on every international aircraft.
United didn't introduce Premium Plus until a few years ago. Do the first set of retrofitted planes need to have PP added?
Are your clients really so co-dependent that they can't sit across an aisle from each other? Its a night flight.
They could charter a jet if they want to cuddle while a mile high.
Thanks for your thoughts. It will be interesting to see whether the 300s are replaced (if only in part) on the JFK-LAX route next year. I absolutely love Delta's ground experience. But, I'm one of those who you say "cannot accept" the chairs in the air. (I'm also one of those who are willing to pay up.) Until then, as a customer, I'll stick with AA's FF. And, when the XLRs (with the new seats) roll out, FB. Thanks again.
At least now they won't be constantly reassigning seats as they shift the 764 between Polaris and non-Polaris.
The big issue with these planes is mechanical and underpowered engines. They get cancelled all the time. Booked on flight from IAD-DUB last month on 764. Flight cancelled at 1 hour after planned departure, due to engine problem/leak. UA added another 764 the next day to cover, but that second flight (different aircraft number) got cancelled too after delaying it 6 hours to 2am.
Just not a reliable aircraft - I will avoid.
You are right they most likely could sell out J, but not at as high of a profit yield compared to other destinations since it is still a leisure route. They place a/c that they can sell more last minute high fare premium products on their higher yielding routes if that makes any sense. Trying to explain it in as few words as possible lol
Lee.
I always respect the decisions of actual cash purchasers, regardless of the service or product.
Delta has simply made the decision that the 763s are too close to retirement to justify the expense of an all-new Delta One cabin. They did it on the 764 but completed that process several years ago; DL and UA's 764s will probably run out of time at about the same time so DL will get more of its investment out of its refurbed cabins than UA.
And DL is focusing its fleet spending on the larger end of its widebody fleet. They are going to add more Delta 1 seats to the A350-900s - the ex-Latam 359s will be the first to get them - but will still have 20 or so more total seats than UA (comparable configuration) will have on the 789.
DL execs also just said that their new generation aircraft deliveries improve their margins on the same route by 10 margin points compared to the older generation aircraft they replace - in line with what WN says about new MAXs.
DL also says the A350-1000 is still on the table which means Airbus is likely discounting further and opening up delivery spaces. Since AA and UA both have fairly young B777-300ER fleets about the same size as what DL wants in A350-1000s and the 35K saves 25% on fuel and flies alot further, DL will have a significant competitive advantage on longhaul international routes.
If UA or DL invests in new cabins on an older aircraft, they only fix part of the problem - but the plane is still just as uneconomical as before even if its lower ownership costs justify keeping it in service. DL is focusing its fleet spending on replacing older technology aircraft AND putting in new cabins that command higher revenue - which is more in line w/ what AA did but they just replaced alot of 767s with 787-s that cost as much including ownershp costs as the 767s they got rid of.
not sure how the amount of power a plane has affects you as a passenger but retrofitting an older aircraft w/ a new cabin only improves the ability to generate revenue - but still doesn't improve the economics of the aircraft itself.
And again- so what? All of what you said may be true. As a passenger I’m happy to have an updated cabin. That’s all I care about.
What about the 757s? For example IAD-LIS operating today has the old 2-2 non-Polaris business class seats. Will they ever upgrade those or just dump the 757 on international routes?
because there are people that are capable and desirous of understanding why airlines make the decisions they do rather than just stomp their feet and demand that they get want.
if nothing else, it should be clear that DL is not going to do w/ the 763s what UA did and DL isn't even going to go with 3 abreast in business class because their data clearly indicates there is no financial justification for doing so.
DL has a higher ratio for return on invested capital than AA or UA and many other airlines.
There are people that can understand those concepts and find them helpful to shape their expectations.
For those disappointed that their 757-200s will still have the old seats, you can blame it on 2 things:
1. A321XLR certification delays
2. No airline has installed a direct aisle access seat on a 757. while seatmakers have been working to get DAA seats certified for the A320 family and 737 family, they will not bother getting new J seats certified for the 757, which airlines are retiring.
One of the worst planes in the UA fleet. The 764 is among the poorest in the UA fleet when it comes to dispatch reliability.
are the "high density" 777s all of the -200s or are there some that have the real business class? I presume high density is the 2-4-2 "buiness" class?
just like the 767-300ER the economics of the 757 and their age do not justify refurbushing the cabin another time.
btw, the A321NEO has now reportedly become the best-selling member of the entire A320 family.
It makes sense to put new cabins on new A321NEOs for those airlines that can justify the labor costs on an 8 plus hour narrowbody flight.
No, the “high density” 777-200 is a subfleet of all United's 777-200 fleet. They are not the -ER variant and are among the oldest 777-200 aircraft flying. They are most often used on flights from the US west coast (such as SFO and LAX) to and from Hawaii.
In this subfleet, the front of the plane contains the old business class seats salvaged from the Polaris retrofit. They are lie-flat, but very narrow. They are in a 2-4-2 configuration with alternate rows facing backwards. When lying down in such seats, you feel like you are in a narrow coffin. The rest of the plane is configured with 3-4-3 economy plus (more legroom) and economy minus (hell in the air) seating.
Nothing larger than the 767-400ER could operate out of NAP reliably due to airport configuration and weather constraints.
Also, UA doesn’t even send the -400ER to NAP anyways on a regular basis. It’s only ever been as a one-off equipment substitution.
Jason,
Are you completely out of touch? Are you making decisions based on price, product, and convenience? Because guess what, you’re doing it wrong. You might as well make no decisions at all. You need to make decisions based on underlying business analytics such as the “why” of lavatory placement. Only then will you reach consumer nirvana. Do better, but better yet, become better.
I'd really love to fly the 767-400ER one day, but given that I have currently and for the foreseeable future no US trips in mind, and probably they won't keep flying all that long anymore, it seems unlikely. Shame nobody outside the US is flying them.
Thanks. Looks like I missed out on the new seats by a few days.
Interestingly the plane had a battery malfunction and it caused the flight to be delayed 6 hours. Glad this dinosaur is out of commission for good.
tell me what other US airline has taken 8 years (feel free to argue about whether that it "almost 10" or not to complete a cabin retrofit. and don't blame covid. 2016 was years before covid
whats the real reason ewr hnl non stop on the 764 has been cancelled for the past 2 weeks or so? rumor has after SK blamed the FAA for their July 1 meltdown, FAA has been going over UA maintainence records with a fine tooth comb.
I’m flying July 29th ewr-hnl 767-400. Plane was just changed to Polaris “retro” but seat rows 20-23 are showing economy plus not business. Looks like a weird seat configuration that doesn’t match up to your “retro” fit story, any explanation?
I'm flying IAD DUB next week and the older configs still seem to be running this route. It's not just the seat maps, check the tail numbers: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ua228
I don't think United has quite made it yet - looks like they need another month or two to wrap up. Flying the same route later in September and the new config is available on the seat map.
Also flying on a United 767-400 on July 18th from IAD to BER. United app still showing 2-1-2 “legacy” layout, retrofitted design not showing up. I would think they would have to update the seat map soon if they are flying with a new layout in a couple days. Any thoughts?
Do the United 767-400s board and deplane from the forward door or the door between Polaris business and Economy Plus?