We know that Southwest Airlines is planning some major changes to its business model. While nothing is set in stone yet, I have some insights as to what could be changing at the airline, and it represents a major departure from the way the company currently does business.
Continue reading: Leaked: How Southwest May Radically Transform Business Model
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
I'm not suggesting this is the perfect policy or a policy that I'd want, but it would be much simpler for them to just keep the same boarding structure and charge for various boarding group positions. For example, they could charge the highest for A1-A15, the next highest for A16-A30, lower for A31-A60, lower still for B1-B60, and leave the Cs for free.
This proposed business model of Southwest seems poorly thought our for the current situation within the industry. Both Frontier & Spirit have taken action to pivot their fare bundles to better replicate the experience with traditional carriers, and both of them also offer premium seating options. If Southwest makes these changes, it will push them to be equivalent to Frontier & Spirit which ultimately will hurt Southwest while helping ULCCs. If seats are assigned in advance, it makes zero sense for Southwest to keep the cattle call boarding experience. I don't know anyone that prefers it to the boarding groups used by other airlines.
Just block the middle seats in rows 1-4 and reserve them for business select. EU style business class works just fine for Southwest's average flight lengths.
As you said, this is essentially Southwest introducing basic economy, and I'm not sure how much they'll actually lower fares in the process. I always purchase the lowest Southwest fare but now will have to go to WGA Plus just for the same thing as before plus a seat assignment (which is a nice upgrade, but not worth all the changes). Hopefully they don't fully go through with this (which they probably won't)!
Correct... as unless there are assigned seats, they have to allow self-identified pre-boarders.
It does not at all surprise me that Southwest would try and make something overly complicated. Nor that they would be shocked reaction is not overwhelmingly positive. Speaking from experience working with and for Southwest (I ran for the hills before I could be strapped down for my lobotomy... and it's funny how much people in the company say "drink the koolaid" without knowing the reference)... that place will implode from its own hubris one day. They don't value outside thoughts and have an extremely personnel-laden headquarters with three times the analysts of larger global airlines. Unless you started on the ramp in El Paso several decades ago, you aren't Manager or Director material.
"all the technology was there for this new system" - I'm skeptical about this.
I can imagine the participants were shown some web pages that showed the seating sections, that offered click-to-select a seat in your allowed section, and a page with options for unassigned to indicate their preferences. Any decent UI developer could build those pages in a day or two.
But those would just be mock-ups. The hard part is to integrate that with the back end database systems, to develop the APIs for integrating with the reservation systems. And to build this all into the apps and the call center systems, as well as the websites. And then testing - functional, usability, performance. It's be a foolish business decision to go too far down that path, tp spend a lot of resources on all this , before finalizing the decisions on what policies will be - including from the very input that the focus groups are collecting.
My point is, while the airline may be very seriously considering these changes, nothing is imminent. Don't think, oh, the systems are already built, we'll have this activated in a couple of months.
You have to remember this is the airline that just acted like putting USB ports in seats was revolutionary. They are about a decade behind on most things.
How are they going to handle pre-boards without seat assignments who are used to sitting any where? And the passenger conflicts that follow when people with seat assignments board and discover that their seats are already occupied by pre-boards? Is SW going to make the crew monitor all the seating in progress and direct the non-reserved pre-boards to get up and move elsewhere?
Wait a second . . . with Business Select you pay just as much as domestic first on AA or DL or UA AND you get the same type of seat as in the back AND you get a seat as far forward as row 10 behind all of the seniors and families who pre-board? Where do I sign up?
All this based on leaked focus groups? I'd tap the brakes on proclaiming any of these changes as being "proposed".
Wanna Get Away fares become basic economy fares with checked bags? Reception by most Southwest flyers to these potential changes will likely be overwhelmingly negative. It will probably also make those who are considering signing up for a new Chase Southwest credit card think twice.
Given that this is focus group info, it does not contain specific policies and is way too complicated because it is a mish-mash of different ideas. Or that is what appears to be the case.
The fact that WN is willing to get rid of the concept that every seat is a equal and anyone can sit anywhere in the plane for any fare is a VERY BIG DEAL.
Part of the objection of business travelers to WN's current boarding system is that you have to get in line and get on the plane at the FIRST opportunity or you are relegated to a middle seat in the back.
They need to have full seat assignments and it sounds like that COULD be the way they are going - in which case you don't need to board by groups as happens today.
If people buy seating areas - even if the airline assigns the specific seat - by fare class, WN eliminates the ability for people to game the system for a better seat. There is nothing wrong w/ preboarding if you end up where you are supposed to be. If you buy a cheap fare, claim a handicap, and then get on board and take 6 seats near the front of the plane, then WN and high fare passengers have been harmed.
If you are a family and need 6 seats together, pay for a seating fee or end up at the back of the plane as other airlines do. You don't get a block of seats at the front of the airplane for free.
As for fares, WN has given away too much to too many for too long.
The details might not be perfect but they are moving in the right direction.
I am optimistic that WN will figure it out and will be better off as a result.
The article clearly states everyone who does t pay for a seat will be assigned one (I’m assuming at check-in as most airlines do with basic economy).
“Based on that, you would then be assigned a seat. If you don’t like the seat and want to change it, you’d have to pay a fee to assign a specific seat.”
No one is pre-boarding and stealing someone else’s seat!
“Based on that, you would then be assigned a seat. If you don’t like the seat and want to change it, you’d have to pay a fee to assign a specific seat.”
Everyone will have an assigned seat. Some will pay for that seat, others will have the computer choose for them (like basic economy on other carriers). No one is pre-boarding and stealing someone else’s seat!
Now that WN's res system is out of the stone age (well, no longer from the 80s)... I once had someone in Southwest HDQ leadership explain to me that the primary reason they didn't charge for bags is that they quite frankly couldn't do so with any sort of efficiency under their old computer system (the one that has to be turned off every night and back on to know it's a new day) . Transactions didn't follow one agent from one computer to the next, nor could you switch "drawers" halfway through a day. Taking cash was so complicated it involved each agent balancing off every other airline who used any computer they touched all day. They thought AirTran's rather simplistic Navitaire Skyport/Skyspeed was absolutely wonderful in comparison.
I'm always curious what the two free bags does for checked bag take rate. Would people continue buying a stripped down cabin experience for the free bags or just adapt? I know people who take the kitchen sink when they fly WN because they can. And then when flying Delta or United somehow manage to fit everything into one carry-on roller bag. When I lived in Atlanta, I always checked a bag on Delta as it almost always beat me to the claim (and flying out of somewhere generally messy like FLL it was nice to leave the Sky Club 15-20 before departure and stroll on at the end). Now it comes down to if I think the line to check it requires a wait or not. Consumers change behavior to match what's cheapest and/OR easiest (which could be more expensive).
"and eliminate the goodwill that makes people choose Southwest over competitors"
Yeah, that. That is what WN offers, that's their sales pitch. The only reason to fly them is that you don't have to figure out how an airline is actually going to try and screw you out of additional this or that. Bags are included so you don't have to play carryon games. You pay more for the ability to sit together (paying for A-List).
Moving directly in the direction of low cost carrier models people decide "it's cheap, but not worth the suffering" seems like a bad move for revenue and for PR. Spirit has one of the most legendary reputations in the industry. I don't think it's the one you want to steer towards.
Terrible ideas. They should be working on avoiding emergency landings and operational meltdowns that scare customers away.
I agree with you that WN has used its lack of technology as an excuse - -until that technology costs it money - as the inability to participate in GDSs and have a robust crew scheduling system did - and thinks very highly of itself based on its past success.
The last couple years have brought WN to its knees strategically; after years of arguing how much better they are than the big 3, it has hurt to watch their profits and market cap fall dramatically.
DAL and LUV traded places as the most valuable airline in the world by market cap but LUV is now worth just half of DAL and less than UAL. LUV's profits have plunged heavily because of Boeing's delivery delays but the whole Boeing issue highlights WN's inability to "complicate" its operation to the point of never considering a second type of plane from a different supplier.
WN does take revenue seriously and they, like all of us, can figure out why they lag. There are enough people that like WN's weirdness but not enough to deliver top revenues. They can and will address their revenue shortfall issues.
Besides seating and giving away less on their lowest fares, adding redeyes will help make them a true nationwide carrier (it is virtually impossible to get from Hawaii to most of WN's east coast cities in 16 hours) as well as deal w/ the shortage of aircraft.
WN knows what needs to change; as with most things, they will move slower than the fan club and investors think they should but I still believe they will get it right in time.
There is already no reason to choose Southwest over one of the other major carriers. Southwest used to be a low fare airline. That’s no longer the case. Their fares are identical to the other major carriers. The luggage is nice, but I typically don’t check luggage anyway, and if there is a flight irregularity you are stuck. Making me pay to select a middle seat in the last row is only going to further erode Southwest proposition. The only reason to choose SWA will be schedule.
Maybe it "seems overly complicated" because it's Ben's guesses about focus group hearsay?
Call me when they actually change something.
Southwest gets a lot of my business on lots of routes bc their wanna get away fare matches basic economy on a legacy. If wanna get away becomes like basic economy and I need to buy the next fare class anyway then I probably will just fly a legacy instead of Southwest on many routes
It’s three zones so if you preboard you get on early but still are required to sit in the Zone you paid for Vs buying cheap asking for preboarding and taking the very first rows . It will eliminate the current preloading scammers that have ruined the current system. Southwest is the only airline you see with 50 to 60 wheelchairs boarding the flight and almost zero when you arrive on the same flight at the destination. Jetway Jesus needs to go away once and for all. People complained when WN went from boarding in groups 1-30 the to A,B,C the to A1-30,A31-60 , so on and so on. Once the learning curve passes everyone will be fine. Evolution in the boarding process is drastically needed in this new era of air travel.
They will eventually get it right, I agree, but definitely leaving a lot of money on the table in the mean time.
The difference between DAL and LUV is that Delta is able to recognize when it has made an error and can course correct fairly quickly. Southwest not so much. Southwest could have possibly retained a lot of markets if it kept the 717s... but its pilots wouldn't work it for less money than the 737 and many of those stations would have a much different cost structure given Southwest's ground CBAs. An AirTran station that was single level operations at a time would be staffed with all cross-trained in-house employees and probably have 5-6 total people plus 1 Supervisor on duty to run the whole show. Southwest to do the same needs about 10 plus 2 Supervisors. But hey, just look at how ATL has shaped up.
I'm amazed and have respect when I fly Delta and see the number of basic economy passengers (as its clear on the app who is). Quite a flex to adapt flight by flight to compete up and down the demand curve.
"Southwest would still sell early boarding positions, to generate further revenue."
What's the point of buying an early boarding spot? Right now, the benefit of Early Bird is getting better seat choices and overhead bin space. With seats now assigned, the only remaining benefit is bin space, but that's already less important for Southwest as checked bags are free.
IMO, the worst part of these ideas is the way Southwest is introducing them by modifying existing fare classes, especially Wanna Get Away. The legacy carriers were clever when they introduced basic economy as they branded it as a new offering *below* existing standard economy and then just quietly raised their standard economy fares. People generally *hate* losing things, so introducing stripped down basic economy as a new ticket class avoided the optics of carriers "taking away perks" from standard economy.
I'm not here to opine on possible changes in Southwest seating charges, but rather, once again, to point out that SOuthwest's current serialized boarding process is NOT a "cattle call". Once you have your boarding number you can sit in the gate area and literally jump into the line at your designated number at the last moment.
Cattle call is the 100 or so United passengers in group 2 lining up even before the gate agents shows up:-(
I'm curious what "all the technology was there" means. It's incredibly easy to creating working wireframe mock ups that look like working website pages but aren't tied to anything in the back end. From what I read int he article I'd say it's well under a week of work for one person, maybe even just a day or two. I wouldn't place to much on this part of it. But agreed way to complicated.
Those proposed seat selection charges seem exorbitant. Why wouldn't I fly a legacy?
I don't care about WHERE we sit on the airplane. The only time that has ever mattered was going to Mexico to beat the line to customs. What I do care about is sitting TOGETHER with my kids. They are over the age of 6 meaning we don't get family boarding. When all the singles hog the aisle and window seats, they don't leave seats together for parents and children. Early Bird isn't the magical answer, because if changes happen to your flight plans, you lose the money, plus it doesn't guarantee anything.
This is dumb. Southwest should just embrace being a legacy carrier and put in first class and extra legroom seats. Heck, put in premium economy too. Their airfares are not low to be considered a low cost airline and this way they can charge a premium.
Southwest’s entire brand identity is the simplicity of their model in an industry that is trying to nickle and dime everyone. Their planes go out full because everyone knows what to expect notwithstanding the very high fares they charge.
2 reasons I don’t fly SW are because no assigned seats so people save seats for later boarders. Therefore I’m happy to see assigned seating. The other issue is no direct flights which makes it difficult to fly to many of my destinations that I can get reasonably on other airlines along with assigned seats.
I've been flying for over 50 years and been on most all the carriers and their programs.
Southwest was always about two main focal points
* 2 Free bags
*No change fees other than fare difference if it applies
Once you change either of those the airline is forever screwed retaining loyalty IMHO
Anything else charging for seats boarding position etc is all fair game
The airline has to make a profit.The industry in the US at least over the past 4 years is now no change fees and it would be suicide if they do it.
I probably wouldn't fly them except rarely even with seat assignments but it could easily sway me in the right situation to finally fly them.My business colleagues happily pay 50% more to avoid Southwest boarding process and that tells me there are others that despise the Southwest experience.And thats sad as its a decent enough airline most things considered.As others have said you don't fly Southwest most of the time for price at least in this era.
The frequently are the same as Delta and others
But you know the bags are free and changes typically easy and possible
The CEO is too shortsighted in not charging for checked bags. All the competition does so! He realizes he must increase revenue and a checked bag fee is the most logical. But instead they’re considering convoluted boarding fees that will be complicated and messy?? Just back down from the pledge of no fee for luggage in the hold. I don’t see how it would cause too much damage in the long term because it’s not like passengers can avoid baggage fees by flying other airlines.
As an AA Exec Platinum, I actually like SW for routes not ideally served by AA or AK. The appeal is both how egalitarian and flexible the experience is. If I flew Delta (I don’t have a Delta credit card), I’m in one of the last boarding groups and have to pay extra to avoid sitting in the back and potentially be forced to check my carry on. With SW’s current situation at least I have the opportunity (if I check in at the 24 hour mark) to get a good seat and can cancel any ticket and get a credit that doesn’t expire without paying extra. These proposed changes would definitely make me less likely to fly with them.
I didn't think anything could make me dread having to fly Southwest more than I already do, but if they were to actually implement any of these changes . . . yuck.
Ads have gone too far Ben. Take a step back. Hard to use the site on iPhone now. Taking my reads to other sites. Sorry man.
It will be time to treat SW in line with legacy airlines. Basic economy on legacy airlines are in competition with this and if you add up all of the extra fees then it becomes not so cheap. Some business model changes will make people consider that they are changing details of why they fly SW. One primary reason some people fly SW is the airports they fly to which tend to lack frequency of legacy.
The industry has changed a lot since Southwest pioneered their business model. Airlines are raking in a lot of dough on ancillary fees such checked luggage and seat assignments, including premium economy cabins. Southwest completely missed these changes and as a result has been leaving a lot of money on the table during their operations. Southwest has to rethink their business model if they want to survive and prosper. It worked great in the 80s and 90s but is antiquated now.
I don’t understand the fans if open seating who say it’s “egalitarian”. There are a small number of people who pay extra for early boarding.
Plus these “egalitarian” open seating policies are torn apart by the wheelchair scammers and the seat savers for people boarding at the end.
In that way, open seating policies are even more reflective of society, when rules to make things equal are disregarded and violated by rule breakers who are allowed to do it.
Try boarding a WN flight towards the end and look how many people are blocking the middle seats with tray tables, luggage, trash, etc.
It’s why so many dislike the policy, and I’m happy to see all the scammers and seat savers end up in the spotlight more.
Southwest has fallen a long way since the days of Herb and Colleen. These changes will complete the downfall. SWA WAS my airline of choice, but if they make these changes, I will have to find another mode of transportation.
I love this idea.
Or, alternatively, let people who are not people of size buy 2 seats if they want to! I would fly them several times a year if I could have more space / a free seat next to me.
A 'big front seat' or First cabin would be even better, but that would require significantly more investment and I don't see that happening.
"Legacy carrier" has nothing to do with first class or legroom, despite how colloquial the term has become.
First off, no free changes will always receive a negative reaction. The only way to truly know its effects is to try it out and see how it impacts the bottom line. Some people will choose another airline that is more flexible, some people will not make booking in first place, some people will pay more for flexibility and some people will not pay any attention and book as before. But focus groups won't give any real indication of how many people will fall into each group, so it is kind of pointless to speculate.
As for seating, many people commenting seem to claim that a mix of assigned and open seating would be difficult or confusing. But anybody who has taken trains in Germany or UK or many other countries will have seen the little indicators above the seats that say which seats are reserved and which seats are available for open seating. If dozens of railway operators can manage it, I don't see a reason Southwest can't. And in the era before the screens, the train staff would just pop a physical paper over each seat that is reserved. Doesn't take long.
Now, whether any of this makes business sense for Southwest is another matter, as many of the people who love the airline do seem to love the boarding process, which is quite unique in the current era.
But while some of the aspects might seem complicated to the general public, adding a mix of assigned seating and open seating is actually quite simple and wouldn't be too complicated on its own.
I have flown 4 Southwest flights in my life, one of which required a connection. My connection was late, so even though my fare included an earlier boarding group, I ended up in a middle in the back because their current system penalises people with short connections. It also penalises anybody who doesn't want to waste their time sitting around the gate area.
Anything that would change this system would be far more likely to make me consider the airline in the future, however, I reckon that it would also take away a feature that is very popular with many current flyers, so I would have no idea whether this would be beneficial to Southwest.
I find all regional US flights are very packed and poor service to customers. We're treated poorly compared with overseas, in general. No meals on long flights, only snacks and water doesn't appeal to most. I used to take SWA all the time, but rarely now due to their higher fares and schedules. They also cut out most xcountry flights unless you catch a super early flight. I appreciate being able to cancel a flight and have the funds to use at a better time in the future.Hope this continues. As for boarding, I prefer the way overseas flights do, select a seat during purchase of flights regardless of fare type. Here's hoping SWA thinks about the customer more than bottom line, if you want to keep them.
You wrote that what's proposed would be inefficient as the plane would be boarded "front to back"
So I fly southwest a lot, and that's essentially what happens now. All the pre-boarders due to medical or needing extra time go first and sit in the front, and then those who paid to upgrade their boarding to A1-15 or are using one of their premium seat vouchers from their rapid rewards premium card follow, usually saving seats for the remainder of their party, also in the front of the plane. These two sets take the front 1/3 of the plane's aisle and window seats. I am A-list preferred and usually board around A16-20 and that's what I see just about every time I get on.
In my current situation, I will not fly without premium economy seating. As a taller person, I value legroom. Additionally, I usually fly with my wife and we prefer a window and an aisle seat (two-seat row). Southwest offers none of these things. I would add a premium economy section to the plane with two-seat rows and assigned seats and leave the rest of the cabin as is. That is the best play.
Saving seats is the major downside of the mass boarding. Especially if you pay to upgrade and there is no “open” seat. Enforcing the process does not happen so assigned seats would eliminate this unfair and annoying issue.
This proposal seems way overly complicated. Either go all in on assigned seating or keep it as is. This notion of only some passengers get to assigned seats while others still have open seating will just lead to problems inside the cabin.
What if the person(s) who have assigned seats are running late and arrive after their boarding slot, and now someone with open seating is sitting in their seat? I mean, sure they can just be asked to move but that just delays the process, especially if that scenario is across multiple passengers.
I have been an enthusiastic SW supporter for years and had a companion pass for a while. In recent years, though people scamming the system with miracle illnesses that resolve upon arrival have made it unbearable. It is time for them to make it very simple. Seats in the front of the plane cost more and are assigned as are every other seat. Using a fake wheelchairs or buying one a ticket and trying to reserve the whole plane for a large party has created insanity.
I go out of my way now not to fly SW and will only fly them business select and if it's direct
The article clearly states that everyone is assigned a seat. If they don't pay for a seat assignment in advance, the computer will assign them a seat at check-in. There will be no more "open seating"!
There will be no mix of assigned and unassigned seats. The article says, "[...]Based on that, you would then be assigned a seat. If you don’t like the seat and want to change it, you’d have to pay a fee to assign a specific seat." So that means anyone who doesn't pay to select a seat will be assigned a seat at check-in just like every other airline in the world (pretty much).
Even if it was pay for the second bag, they’d make some money.
But I think free checked bags was to reduce the number of bags in the overhead bins.
They need to find a way to sell things to customers they don’t already get. Preordered meals might be an option, selling “packs” of drink coupons would be one, paid transfer services that involve taking you to/from the airport, checking/collecting your bags for you and meeting you at the gate with an ecart for tight transfers would be one, selling a year of priority boarding at a time and opening lounge clubs would be another. Those are all things people and businesses are willing to pay for, and it would dress up the carrier. If you start charging for things people already get for free, you aren’t adding extra value, you’re taking value away. Southwest likely just needs to stay Southwest if it is not willing to be nice to Customers and offer new things.
Love Southwest just the way it is! 30+ years happy flier. If Southwest doesn't fly somewhere then i don't need to either.
Tried Frontier once because my sister set up the ticket.. Southwest going to anything that resembles that mess makes them just another train wreck.
Guess it's time to check out Breeze.
❤❤❤Yeah!!!! The end of the Cattle Call Boarding Process!!! I am very happy and cannot wait for this to start!!! I will no longer fear getting stuck in a middle seat, on the way to Hawaii, because a hundred kids, with their families, boarded after "A's," or someone saving seats for their group of 26, and don't get me started on all the wheelchair people who run down the aisle at the end of the flight. Sanity comes to Southwest!!!
Funny how all these people downplay "focus groups" of not going to happen.
If experience teaches me anything, all the negative changes always came from customer feedbacks, surveys or yup, focus groups.
Get ready for this inevitable massive change.
For years, before I retired, I flew Southwest Airlines point-to-point between certain cities because its frequency of flights allowed flexibility to easily change to later or earlier flights. My goal was not comfort, but to get from A to B as quickly as possible. When they introduced "pay extra" for early boarding, I gladly paid it to insure an aisle seat near the front of the plane for fastest deplaning, again, to save time. Every minute of my day away from the airport was precious. I accumulated hundreds of thousands of frequent flyer miles on Southwest but lost it all when I retired and, unbeknownst to me,they vanished because I failed to book a flight within a year's time. Today, there is no reason for me to fly Southwest.
I hope they do it. Then I'd lose my last reasons for flying WN. Currently WN is on par with the legacy carriers on price on my regular routes, there are few reasons for me to fly them
I love Southwest. They are my primary airline for direct flights because they do offer the best value for airfare, their amazing customer service, and customer friendly policies. I would be very sad to see them start nickel and diming. Would I like to see cattle call boarding done away with? Yes, but pick seats at booking or checkin with no extra fee. It would be one more customer friendly move by Southwest.
I, and I suspect the vast majority of Soutwest flyers choose SW because of the ease of booking & simplicity of boarding. The boarding is simple & reasonably efficient. The only problem I see is the excessive number of Wheel chair, many of which no doubt are illegitimate. If SW needs to increase revenue they should charge at least $25 to $50 more for the weel chairs. If they adopt these proposed changes they will be just another airline & there will be no incentive to choose Southwest.
For years, one of the reason that Southwest was my favorite airline was that they allowed free flight changes for all of their flights, which often brought me their business over that of other carriers. Now, with it being standard for most carriers to offer free changes for most fares, with Southwest's high fares, if they eliminate this for the WGA fares, I am likely to switch my business to another airline.
SW is no cheaper than the other legacy carriers. So, the only unique factor is the lack of change fees and two bags fly free.
On the other hand, the BIG HASSLE is the open seating issue which I experienced on my last two flights with SW. Waiting for a fist fight to break out over bags of donuts on seats!! Legacy media will have a field day repeating the story morning, noon, and night with SW in denial.
Assigned seats; business class in the 1st two or three rows with extra leg room and complementary beverages; and boarding of the "Jesus Jetway" crowd AFTER group TWO would control some of the "saved" seat abuse which has become a reason not to fly SW.
SW has an opportunity to resolve the problem now or let it blow up in their face!! Yet, those in the C-Suite are distracted by their sole focus on the strike point of their stock options!
Or start charging for carry/on bags and leave checked bags free. This would speed up the boarding process.
Agreed 100%. If I don’t have flexibility on a WGA fare, I’ll fly United for for my inter-state trips instead.
Perhaps you'd rather babysit someone's random 2-year-old in the middle seat because families won't get to sit together? Have fun!
I don't think the changes going to make a big difference on revenue for WN.
In about 2 years WN will be merge with other airlines or will be bought out. Bankruptcy could be in the future.