Points can get you stays at some pretty incredible hotels, and I don’t want to in any way diminish that. There are plenty of properties in the Hilton Honors, Marriott Bonvoy, and World of Hyatt portfolios (among others), that are awesome to stay at.
Continue reading: Luxury Hotel Points Farms: A Category Of Hotels Worth Being Honest About
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
I'd say PH St Kitts is just on the wrong side of Alila Ventana. It's a suspiciously good CPP, the base rooms are not great, and they nickel and dime you heavily
Which, by the way, is also the reason American guests are way under represented at boutique and indepndant hotels.
As an Australian, my opportunity to accumulate hotel points is very limited compared to the US. It would be very rare for me to stay at a global brand in, say, Europe. The cost is almost always very significantly higher that similar independent properties, and supporting a local establishment is something I enjoy.
It’s become true that branded hotels are more often than not lackluster. People are blinded by points.
Its hard to categorize. Anyone can have a bad experience at a hotel while someone else has a great experience. But the exorbitant cash prices attracts the cent per point optimizers - I got 5 cpp redemption and a $20 breakfast coupon. What a great deal!
My question would be whether there is any way of sniffing out or figuring out that a property is a "points farm" hotel just by looking at pictures before booking, or does it say, require reading reviews or forum posts. Or if it is just "you won't know until you actually stay there."
Had the same feeling when staying at the St. Regis Aspen a few years ago on points. The service and room was very lack luster.
Ritz-Carlton Melbourne is a prime example. Horrendous service across the board, obviously not trying with breakfast, etc. Doubly hurts because I paid cash to experience the glory of having the front desk associate make it plain I was inconveniencing her by existing.
Oh, I had a great experience there. We had a nice room, staff unpacked and put away our clothes for us so we could go right out upon arriving, prompt service throughout. It's not unique and historic like the Jerome, but it's very nice, even for Aspen.
Are you kidding me? The St. Regis in Sarasota (Longboat Key) is not a property that anyone who didn't care about Marriott would book.
Look, the reality is the vast majority of U.S. markets cannot support a real luxury or 5-star hotel. Look at Sarasota, which you mention vis-a-vis the St. Regis. Marriott screwed the owner of the Ritz-Carlton, which was a dumpy resort factory, and opened a new St. Regis. Sarasota is a small market without staff or, rather, without competent staff to provide the kind the service expected of those properties. The same is true in many other markets. Most U.S. markets cannot support a legit 5-star St. Regis, Ritz-Carlton, Waldorf-Astoria, etc. The U.S. despite Americans obnoxiously tipping for everything is basically a 3-star or 4-star hotel market.
"...the Park Hyatt Sydney isn’t a points farm. It’s one of the most iconic city hotels out there, if you ask me, and the vibe and service reflect that."
When is the last time you stayed at the PH Sydney? Real question, I'm not snarking here. Marc von Arnim left the GM post at the PH Sydney during Covid, and opened the Capella in Sydney (he was hired there in 2022, with the property opening its doors in March 2023), and the PH Sydney is NOWHERE as good as it was under von Arnim's leadership; his absence is palpable.
I have another PH Sydney stay coming up, but after that, I'll be moving over to the Capella. Literally no hotel in Sydney can come close to the views the PH has, but from every other standpoint that matters, the PH Sydney has seemed to have lost its way, and continues resting on the laurels earned by Mr. von Arnim. And his opening the Capella, and the Capella's subsequent rave reviews, cannot be coincidence with van Arnim helming it.
You should go back to the PH Sydney and see how much things have changed. It's not remotely the same level of treatment for anyone paying with points or using their status for benefits. Read the FT thread if you want the simple version.
Feeling the like Andaz Maui is one of these.
Nice plates, but it's a points dump.
Andaz Maui and St Regis Bermuda are good examples I have stayed at in the last year. Won’t go back.
Paris five-star hotels charge exorbitant rates to begin with, however, the Park Hyatt there is hilariously over-priced, often starting $1,500+ per night, while points redemptions are 35-45K/night, so, I guess 3-4x cents per point value proposition, which is decent, even for Hyatt.
I was going to post the same thing. The GM is getting skewered on FT in the PH Sydney thread. I had never stayed there so I can’t comment but looking through that thread doesn’t make me excited to stay.
I feel like there is new level of hotel now too - the AMEX Hotel Collection, or Fine Hotel and Resort that's lowish priced and everyone there is trying to use their $300 card credit.
I just got 3 nights in DC at the Thompson for a total of $62 (booked last year) and earned a total of 4,267 Hyatt Points (I have a 3x targeted on promo on stays of 2 or more nights for the next two months). The AMEX Hotel Collection there gets you $100 of dining credit and free breakfast for two. I had a really funny conversation at check in with the associate who said "We've gotten so many AMEX reservations lately, what we really care about is the fact your a Globalist" I got a somewhat of an upgrade to a corner room.
Oh, and then there's the Maldives, which are basically a Marriott, Hilton, and Hyatt redemption Mecca (pun intended, because it's an Islamic country). 5th night free and free breakfasts with status make it a 'deal' but you still pay a bunch of dinners and getting there, so...
Aman, Four Seasons, etc. don't need 'official' loyalty programs (unless you count the 'Aman Junkie' t-shirt, LOL); but, using Amex FHR to stay helps with those benefits (guaranteed 4PM late checkout is often better than any status anyway).
Great use of that $300 credit! You could do that every 6 months, stock up on free breakfasts, use the $100 credits for other meals, and live it up... so long as you wanna be in DC these years... *cough*
What's the gist; like, are they just stuffing award-bookings in the no-view rooms, and being real strict on check-in/check-out times (like down to the minute)? If so, would feel like every Fairmont I've ever stayed at.
At least Ventana Big Sur includes some meals; St. Kitts is like... 'we got extra sargassum you can nibble on...'
Unless it's Aerolineas Argentinas Premium Economy which is usually a recliner (like domestic First in USA). Odd naming.
Strictly following your definition, Delta would be the equivalent of "Points Farm" Airline. Higher than value cost of points for a mediocre product on balance.
You can find the points farms if you know the corporate rates are extremely low at the same property. e.g. the Park Hyatt in Paris or Milan are like 300-400 EUR a night with a corp rate but exorbitant regular rates (and not that nice).
There are lots of tired Marriott properties like this as well.
Isn't Premium Economy always a recliner/like US Domestic First? The purple seats on United, for example.
Interesting. I've stayed several times and always had phenomenal service across the board. I would say it's one of the better St. Regis properties anywhere (as it should be, given the rates). I would definitely not put that property under the "Points Farm" umbrella and chalk your experience up to YMMV.
It's fair to call out Points Farms, but you should also call out Points Farmers: those who exclusively only stay at points hotels and are often extremely persnickety over every little detail and ruin it for the rest of us. I'm thinking the type of people who'd demand "my platinum status entitles me to an upgrade" to the front desk and then complain online because housekeeping cleaned at 3pm instead of their usual 2pm.
Honestly this applies to most Fairfields too… there is almost always another non-Marriott nearby with similar or even better rooms for 40% less.
I seem to recall Ben created the following thread last year:
"24 Of The Best Points Hotels I Hope To Stay At, From Iceland To The Red Sea"
Yes I’d put it slightly about SR Deer Valley but there is deferred maintenance thruout the property
Terrible location. Overpriced everything, with no chance to leave the grounds since its far from everything
Not a good hotel at all - but hyped up by blogs to redeem points at
Agreed - and there are large dogs everywhere - including sitting in the restaurants at meals
Lots of bucket list redemptions are points farms. They are the rare flight/hotel stay where you can get 10-20 cents per point, which encourages people to hoard their points. The points depreciate while the programs enjoy the whatever the banks paid for those points.
Not always. Premium Economy on LATAM, for instance, is 3-3 middle blocked, like what European carriers call intra-Europe business class.
Ding ding ding was thinking the same about PH Vendome so over rated by points users
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the catering on AR premium economy is very far from premium.
Hotel pricing in Paris can be crazy, so I'm completely desensitised to any numbers being quoted, but €400 a night in Milan is quite a lot of money if there isn't a big event on. I'm sure there are people willing to pay many times that for a room, but that probably says more about those people ('more money than sense', hooked on loyalty programmes, seeking out the service equivalent of Veblen goods etc) than the market at large.
This is the right answer. Points hotels are absolutely fine, and often pretty good value, as long as they don't belong to the big 3 American chains (IHG seems a bit more random). You can pay €484 a night for the cheapest double room at the Hyatt Centric in Madrid for some dates in May, or you can spend €388 on a junior suite at the nearby NH Collection Colón... doesn't that sound like a difficult choice?
The Ventana Big Sur is going in the same direction. Several small cut backs have been made. Room service delivery fee, removal of the complementary welcome cocktail, reduction of welcome amenity, reduced complementary excursions.
Our first stay in 2020 when the hotel was under the previous management was the best and probably what Ben remembers. Since then, several service reductions were made which would not make sense if the majority of customers are indeed paying $2000 nightly rates.
It is still a great property at a stunning location.
There have been rumors the annoying GM of the PH Sydney (name escapes me without searching) has moved onto the GH San Diego, so maybe we’ll see some recovery
Very helpful article as it helps explain the awful Hyatt Centric Key West. It’s a Level 7 hotel and charges over $1000/nt during peak season. However, the place is run down, and dirty. Nothing at all like other Level 7 hotels I’ve stayed at like the Park Hyatt Beaver Creek, Grand Hyatt Kauai, Andaz Maui, etc.
That hotel is an embarrassment to the Hyatt chain, and my stay there even using points has really undercut my trust after using Hyatt as my primary hotel choice in 30 years of business and leisure travel.
Nope. That's the GM of the Andaz Maui that moved to GH. Already destroyed the club breakfast.
Is it correlation or coincidence that most of these “point farms” are on US (or equivalent VHCOL) soil?
No one really cares about US hotels or “Ritz” in rural states with shit service when you can get Asian hospitality for 1/10th of the price, both points and cash.
Hey there!
I have an upcoming stay in Sydney in March and I was wondering if you guys have any recommendations. The Capella (as suggested) looks amazing, but it's the second most expensive in Sydney as it looks... I normally stay at the Swissôtel (due to my status) as the location is great and it has a lounge and the pricing is fair.
I also had an amazing experience at the Intercontinental, but I do not need Harbour views this time as I will be in Hong Kong before 🙂
Highly appreciate your insights, thanks!
Accor is also good because it’s essentially ignored by Americans and doesn’t suffer from points farmers because points in Accor are proxies for fixed cash discounts (with no bounties from credit card signups).
Accor is normally far better value in Europe than Marriott, for example.
It seems with points bookings you have two options: points farm, or a hotel gaming award availability and upgrades. Choose one.
I love Four Seasons for the luxury hotel experience it always gave and that was even before I got into any points game. So when I started trying out Park Hyatt and the like I got super disappointed as this is not what I was anticipating for a luxury hotel (the disappointing ones: New York, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, Istanbul, London) - not just service but the hotels were not very well maintained.
I made the observation that most hotels (close to all, really) that has a points system will treat you as if you are staying for free, even if you are paying $2000 a night.
I had that feeling from WA New York and Beverly Hills recently - paid with cash. NY wasn't that bad but there were just tonnes of hiccups like an insanely smelly toilet. If they weren't a points hotel perhaps they'd get everything perfect before opening their doors? While in BH, the front desk was just condescending from the start.
WA Osaka was quite pleasant though
Agreed- Accor is my standard reference point, it's virtually always better value than the US chains.
I haven't been yet, but it seems like the WA Costa Rica falls in this category....looking at the pictures and with much better properties nearby (I.e. Four Seasons Papagayo), its hard to imagine their cash price being accurate
I've been noticing this more and more too. Marriott is the worst offender...Hilton slightly better imo. I have moved to smaller chains when it makes sense and find they have to work a lot harder to get you away from the Marriott handcuffs. I think...stay where you want, collect points where you can and use them when you have a chance to offset something. The game is so different now....but, as you say, you can still get something out of it. It may not be a deal, but sometimes a discount on the overall coast of a trip is the best we can do now.
I do end up staying at Marriotts multiple times per year, but the blind loyalty makes no longer makes sense for any chain. You end up staying more and caught in their cycle.
Ben, though I’ve been, bit-by-bit, leaning away from chasing hotel points/status or staying at points hotels for the past year or so, this post put me over the edge…and I thank you for releasing me from the addiction. I’ll still collect points from credit card spend, and use the points judiciously, but status and points will no longer be the driving factor in where I’ll stay. From now on, quality of experience and value for money will be my primary criteria, and points will be a sometimes bonus.
Addendum: If the loyalty picture switches back to providing something worthwhile, I’ll come back. And I’ll still judiciously seek out Hyatt properties, as I think they more often provide value for my loyalty.
Yes. This is part of the points ecosystem that people don't talk about enough. In the US, there are so many affiliated hotels (and so many iffy independent properties) that using a loyalty program can grant some level of expectation, though that is waning. And everything is expensive. Some luxury properties are a problem, but generally, the pricing premium is universal.
Outside of the US, I notice that US chain hotels (and the Accor properties in many cases) get massive revenue premiums. Of the majors, I feel like the IHG brands seem to price closer to normal hotels. Honestly, this is one of the reasons I'm OK with the proliferation of travel portal credits for hotels on premium cards. At least you can get some choice on properties. I tend to think the broad credits (like on the Venture X and the Citi Strata Elite) provide enough flexibility to be usable, whereas the luxury only credits seem to suffer from cost inflation too.
There are so many of these points resort factories in Hawaii. Lackluster service, $800+/night, and somehow charging a reasonable number of points (mostly Marriotts). When there’s an issue, the service recovery is non-existent. Oh and let’s not forget those $50+/night resort fees that include NOTHING.
I'm going slightly off topic here, and a day late. Why are you skiing in Utah, Ben, and why are you staying at this type of property? If it's intended as a high end travel review trip, well I guess OK. If you're there to ski, I just don't get it.
Did you check the weather forecast? How's the snow? How much did your lift tickets cost? What was the cost per run? Upwards of $50 per run? What was the cost per hour of sleep? $2000/7=$285 per hour? Yikes!
I've skied the Sierra Nevadas twice and the Rockies twice. I'll stick to my weekday Green Mountain outings in Vermont, my annual $183 Epic Pass, reasonable ski conditions, and no lift lines, thank you very much. Solo or with my family. Day trips from CT, so no lodging costs. Ski from 9:00-3:00; home by 5:00pm, just in time for two Advil and one Bourbon.
@ JHS -- Simple answer. We took our older son, Miles, and we wanted him to be able to try skiing for the first time. Ski school had to be booked in advance, and it didn't actually matter how much snow there was. As is the case at any ski resort, hotels typically have to be canceled a good bit in advance, so you can't just "play it by ear." He had a great time, so that's what mattered.
Good response, and you made the right call regarding your son’s first ski experience. We got both Grands skiing at Stowe, VT a few years back - trips and experiences not soon forgotten.
BTW, Hyatt’s Spruce Peak Lodge at Stowe is phenomenal. Highly recommended.
I've been using the same strategy for a long time and it's served me well. YMMV.
0. Collect currencies, not status. Unless it comes with a card I already want for other reasons.
1. Collect diverse currencies and status from many credit cards.
2. For each stay, cherry pick the best points option across currencies.
3. If I really want to go somewhere and there's no GOOD points option, just pay for something reasonable. Otherwise choose the next best destination.
Wow if you’d told me that room in Deer Valley was a Fairfield I wouldn’t have questioned it.
I'll leave it to brighter minds to determine whether it has devolved into a "Points Farm," but the type of experience you had at the Deer Valley St. Regis pales compared to my recent stay at the Park Hyatt Sydney:
Anywhere outside the US where lots of Americans stay eg many Marriott properties in London
I think that it depends not only on your expectations but also on your purpose, too. Some hotels can be relatively good compared to your expectation, brand/level of hotel, etc. Some hotels also do not care if they are not expecting you to be a return guest (such as in the case of airport hotels). The big problem with turns into the farms is the inconsistency and the lack of support for the customer from the big brand.
Not sure it's a points farm but the 120k+ Hilton points a night The View Lugano charges would be ok if I had a room with The view, but I was put in a side building with a view of the parking lot. The side building felt a bit like a points ghetto.
Oof. Do people actually pay TWICE the rate to stay loyal to their brand?
In a market I stay in at least once a month, I almost always stay at a Fairfield despite being a globalist, because the Fairfield is always $40-100 cheaper than the Hyatt Place in town.
Grand Hotel Victoria on Lake Como is a perfect example of a points farm. Just an ok property that’s not worth its crazy cash or points rates during peak summer season.