Korean Air 787-10 Business Class: Good, Not Great

Thanks very much for these insights, and it only confirms what I’ve believed all along: that Korean and Asiana have fallen a fair bit behind their competitors from Taiwan and Japan, not to mention CX and SQ. While the product is great on paper, the non-sliding doors are a big head-scratcher to me. So is the rather non-personalised service for that matter. EVA Air and their ilk have set the bar for phenomenal service when it comes to transpacific flights like these.

Here’s hoping to a better-looking product on the KE A350, and hopefully with a new livery after the merger with Asiana is done and dusted!

Viasat does not have Ku-band (Fast) coverage over the Pacific

Korean Air was my last choice among most airlines in Asia! I prefer to fly with Thai Airways or Malaysia Airlines and receive more attentive service than from the unfriendly flight attendants of Korean Air! I used to enjoy flying with Asiana, but sadly it seems like that will no longer be an option, which is really disappointing.

Excited to hear about your next trip after you’re done reporting on the extreme of Copa and Gol on one hand, and KAL and JAL on the other! I’m expecting JAL to be as flawless in J on the A350-1000 as it was in First, and it could very well dethrone countryman ANA’s ‘THE Room’ as the world’s best J hard product. I wonder how ANA’s A380 premium products are like, though.

And speaking of KE’s Collins Aerospace Horizon product, how about you review it on Air India’s A350 next, on the route from Delhi to Heathrow? (Maybe also tie in Vistara for a bit before it’s gone forever next month.) I’m expecting the hard product to be superb, but the soft product just a little bit behind the curve, even though AI’s been introducing a lot of new premium metalware and amenities recently.

Were the sunny side window seats the only ones left? I roasted in one for 14 hours on an Etihad 787-9 on AUH => IAD and uh… never again please!

Service wise, if we're excluding First Class cabins, I'd say EVA is the best, followed by the Japanese carriers, then the Korean airlines.

I guess Korean Air just doesn't seem to have that same factor the other premium airlines do.

Lucky, did you try asking for the temp to be lowered?

The new color scheme. Anodyne. Almost depressingly so.
Its unfortunate they borrowed AA's sense of onboard bland.

What you choose between a 787 and A330neo overall?

I think it's a Japanese/Korean thing where their climates are known to be cold and they tend to turn up the heat at full blast. I flew on JAL to Hawaii out of all places years ago and the heat was way up!

Last week I flew Asiana in J on the A350 SFO-ICN (thanks Aeroplan), and they were superior in every way from what you pictured and described. Amazing food in generous portions, friendly and proactive service, comfy bedding (albeit no mattress pad), good sleeping surface, reliable wi-fi. I also wore a thin short-sleeved shirt and shorts anticipating the warm cabin, which worked well.

KE seemingly never releases partner award space so I was expecting to be jealous of you getting to fly them, but not at all! I'll still try to find an opportunity to fly their 747-8 while it's still around. Otherwise it's depressing to think that the merger will not only knock out a *A partner with OZ but may lead to a dumbed down harmonized product across the two carriers.

while the 787-10 has the range to do the PNW to ICN, the aircraft is primarily a regional Asia aircraft - so up and down the Pacific Rim.
The 787 is just a narrower aircraft than the A350 so the seat is going to be narrower.

The reality is that KE has the largest transpacific system among Asian airlines so, like UA, it isn't realistically expected for it to be the best.

@ Tim Dunn -- How do you reckon it's primarily a regional aircraft? KE has scheduled this plane to fly to SEA, YVR, and HNL, so those are hardly regional routes. And now it's not quality or profitability that matter, but size?

@ Mike O. -- In business I'd definitely choose the 787. The A330neo is just too narrow to have a properly competitive product.

@ GoAmtrak -- Guess I need to give the Asiana A350 a try. Happy to hear you had a good experience!

@ david -- On western airlines I've certainly asked, but this just seems to be the norm in Asia, and I was one of the few non-Asian passengers. So I didn't, because I figured it's just a "me" problem.

@ yoloswag420 -- Are you including Southeast Asia as well? Because if so, I'd add Singapore Airlines. Otherwise I agree with you.

@ Willem -- Honestly, it wasn't something I was thinking about when I went to select my seat, but I probably should've. At the time that I booked, there were also seats on the right side. Oops.

@ Ben -- Good catch, thank you!

Just as United uses its 787-10s on some Pacific routes, the majority of KE's 787-10 fleet (when they are received) will not be used for TPAC routes.

As for the quality comment, the largest carrier in a region is often not the best. EK has taken years to decide to get rid of the middle seat in business class - let alone get it done. And, if that applies to KE about service across the Pacific, it most certainly applies to UA for different reasons.

Maybe it's just that when you have a nearly-state-owned carrier (or a company staffed by people of such a history), the level of service just will not be the same as the best alternatives.

The cultural differences in each country on the ground also play a role in how service is both conducted and perceived. Korea has more of a “yo waiter!” with a call button vibe which I find comes out in the cabin. Taiwan is more proactive similar to the US with waiters roaming around a lot more frequently and being anticipatory. Japan is somewhere in between. Meanwhile the US wait staff introduce themselves by name and orbit working for that tip which establishes the expectation.

In the air I found Korean Air to be as you said but also very quick and consistent to respond to the call button. The culture gap of using the button for basic service will feel unnatural and misaligned for someone from the US where it gets an “emergency only” feel. Meanwhile having someone orbiting who knows your name and is monitoring your habits and personal space closely can feel creepy.

More generous than what is pictured? Wow, are you trying to feed a cow?
I can never understand the portion sizes of what Americans regard as "sufficient", it's not like they end up on average taller than say the Dutch (where they don't feed everyone like cows) and less fat (think Asians in general have you beat there).

“with world class airlines both to the north and south”

——would love to see a review trip to North Korea!

@FLCL Believe me, I was surprised and I agree with you. I couldn't finish more than 60% of the bibimbap and accompaniments, and I refused the dessert/cheese course! Breakfast congee and fruit was also massive.

Ben, I remember reading last summer something along the lines of Korean Air having trouble certifying those seats, specifically on the B787-10, because of the fact the armrest could not be lowered and this somehow violated some rule about the door being closed in-flight. I think it was on Live And Let's Fly, though I can't be sure. Maybe that explains the door staying open throughout your flight.

This was almost the same as what I expected. After reading some journals and talks about KAL written by Koreans, it seems like KAL is now trying to be as cost effective as possible (known in Korean as 가성비 (gaseongbi)).

Since shortly before the COVID-19 Pandemic, the airline has been employing a professional entrepreneur, instead of their traditional practice, which was appointing someone from the owner's family - obviously, the former would care more about the financial performances than the latter would, while it'd be the other way around when it comes to the level of service (or maybe not...).

I've been flying KAL for a while (once or twice a year in general), and it felt like at least one thing is gone compared to the last time I flew the airline. Also, KAL crew are always friendly and attentive, but on the other hand, it feels like the airline is trying to cover up its lacking-a-bit service by the friendliness and attentiveness of crew, which is sad.

Anyways, I'm still excited to read the full review, and also KAL A321neo business class first sight. Thanks for sharing, Ben.

Yeah, there has been some certificate issues with the new business class seats. That's also one of the reasons why their B78X deliveries have been (or still is) being delayed, besides the 787 QC issues.

I like it on the warmer side too. For me, many US airlines are too cold. So I rather see as a personal preference, with the US being accustomed to a more frigid AC than the rest of the world.

Random, hope your family is out of harm's way given the hurricane hurtling towards Florida

Interesting. Inferior soft product (bedding) to Delta but comparable food (same champagne as Delta). The hard product (the seat) is equivalent to Delta, at least once the doors are operational.

So, most Delta customers won't fly Korean and say, "Wow. This is better than Delta." By contrast, many, if not most, customers who fly Air France business-class and maybe even Virgin Atlantic would say, "Wow. This is better than Delta."

There have been a couple of reviews about North Korea's Air Koryo, not on this blog but from the usual suspects who post on Facebook. The flight itself seems "colorful", but I do not have the slightest inclination to go there.

Comparing the 787 to the a350 is a fallacy. The a350 competes directly with the 777. Maybe compare 787 to a330 neo.

I hope not as it feels like they've always been a bit corner-cutter even by prior standards. Ex-USA flights can be 14hrs+ and they only on-demand food in J is chips/crisps, cookies, or pot ramen; all low-cost items. Their lounges in ICN have extremely limited food options and utilitarian furnishings even by Skyteam standards and especially compared to competition in Asia. Really not great that priority pass lounges serve far better food than a carrier in their own hub airport. Also, sometimes have sent J passengers to lesser lounges then they could in outstations.

Always like the Apex suites and the great crew, even if service is very systematic (the headache I gave them one flight asking for just the main and as soon as they can as I wanted to sleep), but everything else has always felt cost-conscious.

Korea is actually a fat country, at least compared to elsewhere in Asia. Around 37% are obese. In the US, 40% of Americans are obese.

Unless they fly Virgin Atlantic's 787-9s and A330ceos. They'll definitely think it's worse.

Agreed on SQ, wasn't considering them originally since they do a serve a bit of a different market.

Taiwan/Korea/Japan have traditionally been closer competitors (quite literally due to their proximity), which is why I made the comparison.

It will sound crazy, but it really is. Asians wear long pants and even jackets in broad daylight during peak summer temperatures of 90 to 100F and they won't even sweat a single drop.

Meanwhile, five minutes for me in that heat, and I'll be drenched.

It's not a you problem. I've asked for a couple of degrees adjustment (i.e. not a major change) with a good success record on plenty of Asian carriers, including JL, NH, BR, SQ, and OZ. You should feel free to ask politely and they are generally happy to oblige.

The 7810 competes with the 359; the 10 is more efficient on shorter routes. The 789 competes with the A339 and replaces the 763ER. The 789 is actually closer in passenger capacity to the A343 rather than the 359.

Here's a handy tool: https://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/

If SQ can make record profit while still being SQ, cost cutting is a poor excuse for the soft service gap. The trick is knowing where to cut, not a blanket approach.

The B787 is most certainly a competitor to the A350 and vice versa. Boeing designed the 787 as a more capable and larger 767 replacement that was intended to fit 'under" the 777 but the 787, like the A350 is a carbon fiber aircraft and the two are and will be the only two widebody majority carbon fiber widebodies with the associated cost benefits.

You presumably don't like Ben's discussion of the 787's width but he is accurate. The 787 is narrower than the A350 and the 777X when it enters service and of course narrower than older generation aircraft like the A380 and B747.

The point is whether Ben's opinions about the width of the fuselage matter esp. relative to the width of business class seats and I would argue they don't. Airbus and Boeing both know what each airframe can do and the width of business class seats is very far down the list.

And the problem w/ Ben's criticism of the 787's width is that he also talks about the desire for doors in business class. It is very difficult to put doors on a business class seat unless the passenger lies down parallel to the fuselage; UA managed to get a little extra width with Polaris by angling the passenger - but that also makes it very hard if not impossible to put a door on Polaris.

There is and has to be prioritization of what matters.

The 787 is a capable aircraft and, despite Boeing's issues may still end up as the most widely sold widebody.
There are tradeoffs and the width of the 787 business class seat is one of the down sides.
To think that real passengers will not fly an aircraft because of an inch or two less width in a business class seat is just not realistic.

Starlux is superior to EVA in my recent experiences and funny enough I find China Eastern superior to KE for the last couple of flights I had with them and not to forget Cathay Pacific.

The real miracle is finding Asiana award availability, which is near nonexistent on Asiana, let alone partners

SQ has done a pretty sizeable amount of cost cutting (and degraded the experience) post-COVID. Passengers can feel it when amenities are gone, regardless of where the cuts are

Hi Ben.
Just my own perspective, and some readers may disagree, but I thought this review was absolutely perfect in length and detail. I know your typical reviews are usually much longer, have a lot more detail and many many photos, and I assume that is incredibly time consuming.
My personal, humble, posiiton is that nothing terrible will happen if you kept some or all reviews at this length.

Since Covid, I hope no carrier ever installs an interior without individual nozzles, since the role of air flow in prevention can be so important.

Is the lack of width really that bad?

You've reviewed many A330neo products and they've been among some of your best, so this seems inconsistent with what you've said before.

TAP, ITA, Delta, Virgin Atlantic, Condor, Starlux, etc. all have had perfect or near perfect reviews on their A330neo products from you. If the narrowness is so prohibitive to a competitive product, I can't imagine them all being rated so highly.

Recently redeemed 75k AS miles for KTM-ICN-BOS , there was plenty of availability in J and even built in 4 days stopover in Seoul .

(1) you should pack a thermometer on your review trips. The ideal temperature is 22° (that's 72 for the 4% of the world's population stuck with some weird obsolete system). Adding the actual measurement would be useful, as "too hot" and "roo cold" are VERY subjective.

(2) Agree with you with the measurable quality difference between the 787 and A359. I recently from a QSuite on the A350 to one on the 787-9, and the narrow seat dimensions, the silly window obscuring system, the tightness of the lavatories, and the narrow aisles of the 787 all stuck out, in a negative way. If I were in you, I would not expect to find chart-topping experiences on a 787, ever.

SQ is definitely not the same post COVID. Cost cutting is evident in catering and crew complements.

Also, their seating is no longer in the A game.

I'll be flying the old product 747-8 ATL-ICN next month. One hand I am excited to fly one of the longest(?) commercial aircrafts and routes. On the other, I was hoping to see the new product but possibly next year. Nice review - KAL still has some catching up to do against the likes of Asiana, JAL and ANA.

KE's food is just meh comparing to CX, NH, BR, and JL. First, Korean food is not as diverse as its neighbors Japan, China, and Taiwan. Second, except Korean airlines, I cannot enumerate any other airlines that serve the same dish for F, J, and Y. It's just economy Bibimbap, business Bibimbap, and first Bibimbap.

If you've got a window seat on the upper deck, I don't think the new product can top that.

Within North America I always select my seats based on where the sun will be and morning or afternoon flight time. But going to/from Asia; I can see this being a more difficult decision.

"despite Boeing's issues may still end up as the most widely sold widebody."

It's already the most widely sold widebody of all time. Eventually, it'll be the most widely delivered/flown, but that's still a bit off.

"Korean food is not as diverse as its neighbors"

LOL, in what universe? You sound like someone who's never had anything beyond KBBQ or kimchi.

I hate that about Asian carriers (and British Airways), but have learned to remedy it by carrying-on a powerful+compact handheld electric fan, that uses a cell phone ("C") charger. Been a life-saver. Amazon has plenty of good ones to choose from, most under $20 USD.

Also, too - a very quick visit to Fast.com or speedtest.net would be valuable to your readers.

I know Ben, you aren't tech oriented ... but a screen cap on your Iphone is volume up button at the same time as the button on the opposite side of your phone.

Popular, yet inferior.

I’ve been reading your reviews for a few years now. I’m really beginning to dislike your tone. This article particularly. With so many “reviewers” out there now I think I’m going to move on.

I’ve been reading your reviews for a few years now. I’m really beginning to dislike your tone. This article particularly. With so many “reviewers” out there now I think I’m going to move on.

KE has been private since the 60s. For an airline owned by a major shipping conglomerate with deep pockets(like BR) and one whose CEO's daughter literally turned the plane around due to her dissatisfaction with the service(cf. "Nutrage"), I find the unflattering comparison with its neighbors to be unexpected. You'd think they'd want their airline to be the halo product of their whole business empire.

I just don't think Singapore business class is all that great.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Ever thought of asking the cabin crew to change the temperature. They are controlled by zones and some even by seat number. Failing that the, other guest la can put an extra blanket on, but if you want me walking around in my boxer shorts, we need to make it a little more comfortable for everyone. Hasn’t failed me yet.

Me also. Most modern aircraft are actually zone controlled. The conditioned air comes down still from above and zones or seats can be individually configured. Never had an issue asking for the temp to be adjusted and it being done.

Why can’t deliver a wide seat at 24 inches like Singapore Air does? There is enough room.