The Aviation Herald reports on some findings that have just been released regarding a Lufthansa incident from some time ago. The details are kind of shocking.
Continue reading: Incapacitated Lufthansa Pilot Was Alone In Flight Deck, Pushing Controls
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
What kind of “incapacitated”? He needed to go potty real bad? Or he had a stroke?
I'm actually not a fan of the two person rule will because the barrier to become a FA is a lot less than a pilot. Somebody with bad intent become FA much faster then a pilot. This type of event in flight doesn't concern me too much, because the plane will almost certainly be on autopilot (as it was).
When I'm on a narrow body and a pilot needs a break, I normally see a flight attendant take the seat of the pilot on break until the pilot returns to the cockpit. Is this not the case?
@ GM -- It's required in many countries, including the United States. But in most of the world, it's not the standard procedure.
@ Brian G. -- So I hear you, though let's also consider history. How many times has a plane been intentionally downed by a flight attendant who entered the cockpit? Zero, as far as I know. Meanwhile that can't be said for pilots.
Wow, the entire two people in the cockpit rule in the U.S. came after the GermanWings suicide (I think after?) so it is shocking that Germany would be a country not requiring this like the U.S.
Every day is a learning day, I didn’t know there was an “emergency code” I assume this is a standard code or is it part of pre flight and each pilot creates their own? And does this code override the lock feature that is actioned from the cockpit?
Did Europe aviation not learn from the Germanwings accident? Sure that one was suicide, but it exposed a glaring risk in leaving a single person on the flight desk.
@TravelinWilly he kept trying to input controls, though. Sounds more like an ischemic event that impaired judgment or situational awareness (i.e. stroke).
I’m stunned that the German government didn’t require that two people always be in the cockpit during flight after a Germanwings copilot chose to fly a plane full of passengers into a mountain.
Most of this is sensitive security information (SSI) and sharing it is prohibited. If you need to know, you’d know.
There is an alternative theory that Simon over at avherald proposed of a coverup in regards to the Germanwings crash, sloppy post crash investigation as well as possible fault with the Airbus aircraft in question. Regardless of cause, it would make sense to have a second person in the flight deck when one of the pilots needs to leave the flight deck.
In the US we operate under different rules. There are always two crew members on the flight deck even if one has to leave for physiological needs. We have all completed background checks and have legal and legitimate needs to access the cockpit for safety and security. Training is rigid and ongoing.
@Brian G
The scary part is that the first officer was trying to make control inputs while not in his right mind, he apparently wasn't just slumped in the chair. It's possible a pilot in this situation could inadvertently disable the autopilot, so that's not a guarantor of safety. I'm with Ben, there's never been a case to my knowledge of an FA trying to overpower a pilot and bring down the plane. In terms of real risk, a pilot having a medical incident while alone is more likely than an FA trying to rerun Germanwings, so it makes more sense to have an FA in the cockpit that can at least call the other pilot back and prevent the pilot flying from inadvertently pulling the plane out of autopilot.
What is the rationale for NOT having two persons in the cockpit at all times? Does it cost airlines more? The unions oppose? It is too much to ask cabin crew to step in for a few minutes? US airlines seem to implement this very common sense policy without any problems.
well if the ONE pilot is incapacitated and no one else can get into the cockpit, how would the plane land?!
They did. I think it was an EU rule after that. And then they either dropped it or made it voluntary. And LH of course took them up on it. Completely nuts.
This bothers me to no end. It made no sense to me when the EU dropped the rule after Germanwings and made it voluntary. Just plain stupid.
Nope Brian G. - the German background checks for flight attendants, the so called ZUP, is as intensive as for pilots. No difference.
Shame on "Luftwaffe" ... What happened to that corporate mantra "The safety of our pax & crew is our highest priority" BS ? ... Oh, I know, it's really the financial status of our CEO & shareholders is the highest priority.....
"I'm actually not a fan of the two person rule will because the barrier to become a FA is a lot less than a pilot"
That makes zero sense.
My first thoughts were some kind of stroke, or maybe a complex partial seizure, possibly related to a tumor.
I guess we'll never know, but whatever the cause I fear the FO will have to find a new career.
Malaysia Airlines 370, EgyptAir 990, SilkAir 185. Please Ben, your blog is about quality content and that's why I'm reading it.
None of these are proven to be pilot suicides (though Wikipedia may tell otherwise). May we please stop insulting the pilots of these flights?
German Wings 9525 and Mozambique Airlines 470 are genuine cases of pilot suicides and would have been better examples.
After the German Wings incident there was a rule that at any given time there have to be two people in the cockpit. But after a while authorities decided, that having the cockpit door open for so long (flight attendant in - pilot out - pilot in - flight attendant out) is much more dangerous than being alone in the cockpit and I think the authorities are right.
How does the American government make sure that there are always 2 pilots in the cockpit? I mean everybody has to use the bathroom once in a while. And not all aircrafts are operated by 2 pilots
I'm curious, in a scenario where a pilot leaves the flight deck, and a FA keeps their seat warm... what is the FA expected to *do* in the event that the other pilot at the controls has bad intentions? My assumption is that the FA would not have the training to actually operate the flight controls or other equipment on the flight deck. Is there expectation just that they, perhaps, physically restrain the pilot and shout for the other pilot to return ASAP?
This topic of conversation is not for discussion in a public forum such as this. There are too many security issues at stake.
Real airline pilots will not take the risk of assisting potential terrorists by discussing the subject in any detail herein.
German government doesn't regulate aviation, EASA does. They had the rule for a while, then removed it as there's a wide consensus it's not beneficial.
Oh come on. There's nothing here the bad actors don't know or have access to. Of course, those with sensitive inside information won't post it here or anywhere. Mountain...mole hill
They can summon help and open the door, which is critical if the pilot operating has an intention to keep the door locked.
One person’s security awareness is another person’s mirth …. “Oh come on” there is always one!
I am yet to witness a human “Flying”, however, I do have lots of experience of humans in free fall …. 🙂
I am yet to witness a human “Flying”, however, I do have lots of experience of humans in free fall …. 🙂
If occupant does not reject the attempt using the code then the door opens.
This element was presumably designed with this sort of incident in mind.
But the opportunity to reject means that hijackers can be kept out.
Open source programming (and cryoptography) shows the advantages of having "everybody" challenge the logic.
Actual codes are what gets kept secret.
Oh, and in case the rebranding confused anybody, Germanwings always was part of Lufthansa.
They now use the branding Eurowings.
There have been several situations were a pilot died in the flight deck. That had a big impact for 2 in the flight deck at all times. US airlines - the FA's always move a cart to block the aisle when the cockpit door is opened.
When one of the pilots desires to leave the cockpit, a flight attendent goes into the cockpit. Thus, there are always two crew members in the cockpit: two pilots most of the time, and a pilot and FA for short periods.
*”a reenactment” whoops.
Also Ben, you really need to watch this season of The Rehearsal. It’s an HBO comedy where the creator stages elaborate “rehearsals” to help people solve problems (think building a near exact replica of a section of IAH airport, including a functioning Panda Express or a truly bizarre attempt to cosplay as Captain Sully to understand what made him different). This season explores communication issues between pilots and co-pilots leading to crashes and if there are ways that could be prevented.
It’s a truly one of a kind show regardless of the subject of the rehearsals, but this season is relevant to you because of the subject matter. I never know what to expect, and I go from crying laughing to gasping at its audacity.
I think the USA rule was well before the GermanWings accident. It's from the post 9-11 rule of needing reinforced cockpit doors and specifically for cases where a lone pilot on deck becomes incapacitated. There has to be 2nd person in the cockpit that knows how to work the intercom and open the door from the inside.
I do agree with your primary point and can't beliwve the rule hasn't been enacted worldwide.
The FA can do what? They don't know how to fly or land the plane 99.9% of the time.
At my US airline its very rare for a pilot to leave the cockpit on short flts like this. We have a two person rule.
They can alert the pilot of the issue and open the door. They're not there to fly the plane but to make sure that there's redundancy in case...I dunno the only pilot gets incapacitated or decides to fly the plane into a mountain.
At least in the US when they do the swaps a cart is placed horizontally in the aisle and an FA stands behind it. It only takes a couple seconds for the pilot out, fa in to happen and it'd be quicker if they saw someone coming towards the flight deck plus with the extra FA "guard" and cart as an obstacle seems unlikely anyone could get to the flight deck before they could close the door. Whoever concluded that having one person alone at the controls is safer than two is an idiot.
What countries do and don't have this rule? This is also my biggest fear when flying. I've flown Lufthansa numerous times and didn't know this lol. Yikes
Read the comments above and maybe you can understand why it makes zero sense. In the Germanwings incident, if there were exchange of a flight attendant and the captain for the cockpit, the First Officer who crashed the plane into a mountain, wouldn’t be able to do that. Because the fa in the cockpit would have opened the door and let the captain in. Or the existence of another crew member (a flight attendant) in the cockpit would have caused the FO change his suicide plans. Every single airline accident (or incidents like the Germanwings event) teach us something new. And new rules or regulations are enacted in result of that to prevent that ever happening again. And from what I understand, although EU adopted “two persons in the cockpit” rule after the Germanwings event, they now dropped it or made it voluntary. This is unacceptable and appalling. And here is this incident from February 2024, same situation occurred and that proves the need of that rule to be mandatory. Luckily, this time, there was no bad intentions from the lone cockpit occupant. But imagine the fear/worry of the captain and the rest of the crew in the cabin when they couldn’t have access to the cockpit for several minutes. If you want to imagine how that is, try listening to the black box voice recordings of the Germanwings crash. The captain was banging and screaming at the cockpit door from the cabin side to have the FO to open the door. And pleading at some point. Black boxes record the voices in the cockpit only. Yet, the banging and the captain’s screaming voice from the cabin side of the cockpit door was recorded in the black box. When the captain and the rest of the crew and literally all the passengers at that point realized what was happening and they realized they are about the die. imagine their sheer terror and fear! And imagine yourself in that position… Maybe then, this makes sense to you! Shsssh…
What kind of incapacitation can happen to someone in just that amount of time? Where they become functional again right when the captain returns? That sounds suspicious to me.
In security we call this "security by obscurity". Sharing protocols and policies and having them challenged is proven to be more secure than secrecy - where the bad guys can learn about things anyways.
I am under the (mistaken) impression that there must be always 2 personnel in the cockpit and in this case there should have been a senior cabin crew member in the cockpit while the captain went to the toilet.
There was a documentary on U.K. satellite tv recently giving the Eurowings crash another look and the revelations about electronic problems on that airframe were eye opening. Bottom line was that the plane may have crashed itself, not the co-pilot.