Passengers traveling on Lufthansa’s longest flight earlier this week were in for quite the tour of South America, including an unusual mayday call.
Continue reading: Lufthansa Boeing 747 Diverts Twice, Declares Fatigue & Fuel Mayday
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
I was supposed to be on this flight! Booked from Belgrade to take advantage of a discounted F fare (around $5k roundtrip). Ended up canceling at the last minute.
What an odyssey for the passengers...
Lufthansa has become a joke as a company. They could have diverted to Cordoba (less than 1 h from EZE and capable to handle 747 — flew there in a 747 in the 1990s). Then they divert to an airport 1000 km away? What a waste of fuel, effort, and passengers time and patience. Then a MaDay because of fatigue?? This needs to be investigated
Ben, they did not refuel while in ASU hence the lack of fuel and possible mayday (?)
Surely the mayday was about getting priority to land. And if the crew are exhausted and there's a risk of being told to hold, isn't it legitimate to declare a mayday to ensure you get onto the ground.
@ George -- Are you sure? The plane spent nearly 19 hours in the air, so that seems like a long time without refueling...
@ JT -- It was definitely about being given priority to land, but is fatigue really an acceptable reason for a mayday, per regulations? I'm not sure if it is or isn't, which is why I'm asking...
If they didn't fuel the plane sufficiently to ensure a safe landing at GRU after a diversion, it should not have been chosen as a diversion point.
will be interesting to see what Brazil's aviation authority does with this... they do have the right to investigate including the claims of crew fatigue
Do you know LH's duty limits and farthest destination with a two-person crew? I was on LH418 yesterday which diverted to DTW (third time in a week for that flight to divert). However, unlike UA on the same route, LH had a two pilot crew which, per their announcements, had them running up close to their max...
@ Moto -- Fascinating, I stand corrected! Are there any routes that get four pilots then, or is three the maximum? I assumed it was similar to the US, where 12+ hours gets four pilots.
If pilots were only 4 hours away from life threatening fatigue with a jumbo full or passengers sounds like they never should have left ASU
Poor economy passengers. LH B748s have literally the worst Y class in the world with abysmal "iron board" Recaro CL3520 seats. I once flew FRA-MEX in this economy, and I was almost dead after 11.5-hrs flight - it took almost 2 days to recover after the flight. I think, after 20 hrs in these seats one should urgently visit an osteopath.
Of course fatigue is a valid reason, just like any other crew incapacitation. You need someone qualified and capable on board to land the plane safely. Insufficient rest can have symptoms similar to mild alcohol intoxication.
"The flight was operated by a Boeing 747-8 with the registration code D-ABYM,..."
The flight WAS a Boeing 747-8, not operated by a Boeing 747-8.
Therein lies the problem. U.S. carriers staff long haul flights always have an extra pilot. Many European carriers staff transatlantic flights with only 2 pilots. Personally, I feel safer with an extra pilot on long flights.
You're very wrong.
Flight is usually designed to be operated by different aircraft type.
The flight was operated by a Boeing 747-8 is very correct.
It could have been operated by a B777 or an A350.
Saying "The flight was" usually refers to the flight number not the aircraft.
The US also has limits which likely would have required the cancellation of the flight before it ever could have left for the 3rd leg. a single diversion on a longhaul augmented flight is possible based on US staffing but rarely can a flight divert twice w/o triggering one of several crew limitations.
moto,
does LH staff a flight like this w/ 1 captain and two FOs? While the captain undoubtedly had to make the decisions regarding diversions and flying extra legs, is it possible that two first officers were flying the two diversion legs? if not, it is not hard to see why the captain might have been the one that was fatigued
Regardless of regulations, I would rather see a fatigued crew declare mayday and land safely than not declare then have a mishap.
MVD’s main runway is closed for work as they are installing ILS Cat III (Madrid flights are currently operating via Las Palmas due to lighter loads required for the shorter secondary runway). Also, MVD is very close to EZE so chances are that the weather was not ideal there either.
Probably the same weather conditions (fog). Could have diverted to Cordoba (or Santiago) but that may have brought into play other issues.
Crew limit is not airline specific.
It's based on the country's governing aviation body.
Usually up to 8hrs for a 2-man crew (1 captain, 1 first officer)
Up to 13hrs for 3-man crew (1 captain, 2 FO)
Up to 18hrs for 4-man crew (2 captain, 2 FO)
@Ben
It's usually over 13hrs fight that require 4 pilots (14 hrs for some countries)
Over 8hrs require 3 pilots
Entitlement is everywhere, even the Germans does it.
Mayday, I've flown 19 hours and tired. I need to land first.
Despite German being German, I hope they're not retarded enough to just walk out of cockpit when they time out mid air.
It’d be awesome if they were chased down the runway by one of those Red Bull cars with a giant can on the top
For sure the aircraft commander was in the chief pilot’s office first thing upon return to FRA. A fair amount of ‘splainin’ to do!
I heard that! The lower back pain I experienced after a relatively short FRA - JFK on their 744 last month was hateful. Even their premium economy seats are uncomfortable.
One and done
Really?! Land at a station with zero ground presence, no contracted handling, no passenger assistance facilities? Also, would Córdoba even have hotel accommodations for 350+ unannounced pax at such a short notice?
GRU was the right call from an operational perspective.
Imagine MVD has far more limited pax OAL accommodation options compared to GRH. Plus not an online LH station....
To be fair when they left ASU the intention was to land in EZE which would have been a much shorter flight rather than flying to GRU.
The crew likely will have used a “captains’ discretion” situation asuming weather in EZE would have been sufficient to fly there. This means the entire crew would have agreed to finish their flight even though it was within their rights to stay in ASU.
I’m a crew member myself and have been in these situations as well with divertions happening on our fourth flight that day. Having to divert than to a secondary airport adding another couple of hours of flight time with passengers is very tense and stressful.
Just to add a little bit of context from the perspective of cabin crew:
Deciding to leave ASU and head for EZE again is totally justified. Everything at EZE has been arranged for the crew. Hotel, shuttle and also adhering to the roster you have been given are all very valueable reasons to decide to continue the flight also as a service to the passengers.
It was really bad luck for this crew to then ending up having another diversion even further away. GRU also being a Lufthansa destination CLA agreements will be easier to respect for both company and crew.
The mayday call might seem strange on a first glance but don’t underestimate the stress the crew has expierenced dealing with a divertion and passengers. Adding to the workload on a long flight. Fatigue is silent killer with small mistakes having big outcomes.
I’m glad to see the crew not underestimating the situation and putting out the mayday call.
For the passengers this was a rough day as well keeping also in mind them having to get on another flight afterwards to reach their intended destination.
"lack of fuel and crew fatigue, since neither seem like they’d be assisted much by fire trucks."
a) I don't think it takes very much highly-flammable aviation fuel to cause a dangerous fire.
b) In several countries the fire brigade/department is called Civil Defence - they are trained in things other than fire (floods for one!) - at airports they are the ones who know about emergency evacuations.
Completely agree.
Often avoiding (even a small) risk of disaster is rather mundane, rather than heroic.
These numbers are more for time at controls (flying hours). The duty time is typically much higher. It’s a pity that ICAO gives only guide lines and no specific numbers regarding flight duty period (FDP). Airlines in many countries, with less competent CAA authorities and no unions, abuse these limitations often to very concerning limits and even no limits, i.e. Captain Discretion (of course not referring to EASA).
I fly Lufthansa a bit more frequently than I would've wanted, and much/most of the time in Y, but I have only been on their widebody aircraft 3 times in my entire life, out of which two were in F (the third was a fifth-freedom leg from BKK to KUL in business 14 years ago which I still remember vividly for the vile meatballs in the meal and the air conditioning system dripping condensation all over me throughout the flight). I do appreciate that sometimes employers choose flights for staff in business trips, but I would do my absolute best to avoid flying them in long haul Y.
What an odd comment. Wanting priority yo land before your hours time-out is hardly entitlement. I’m not sure what sanctions would be applied to the crew and the airline if they were to operate outside the law, but I have no doubt it would be a formal enquiry, official interviews, and maybe suspension from flying duty while the whole fekakte mess is sorted out. There’s also the safety and comfort of hundreds of customers to consider. By that stage I’d probably have been happy to disembark in Pyongyang.
@Lucky - no LH routes are operated with 4 pilots, and EZE is our longest flight. LH Cargo has some 4 pilot routes but I’m not sure which routes that would be.
@Tim Dunn - on 3 crew flights, we always have:
- 1 CP
- 1 SFO who would take the left seat while the CP is resting during cruise. They cannot take off and land from the left though, unless it’s an emergency.
- 1 FO or SFO, depending on who’s available
Cordoba's population is about three times that of Asuncion. LH doesn't fly to either city. The weather in Cordoba, though, might have been too much like that at EZE. Why not SCL, though? Weather, again?
The German airline. It has really been a depressing 10 years for Germany.
Their trains ICE were the best, fast, clean and on time. A completely other story, they gone down so far.
Now a German Lufthansa airplane like this.
Not sure what exactly has gone wrong. The Germans we meet on trains say its is the lack of money from the government, they are embarassed when they speak about it.
We didn't realise how bad it was, then saw economic reports.
Do you have any idea if Lufthansa has fuel agreements at Cordoba? Can they accept 747-8s, which are larger and in a different size category than a "747 in the 1990s?" What the situation was at Cordoba given that EZE and AEP were sending diversions all over the place? Cordoba also had fog at the same time - how low was it?
United diverted all the way to Mendoza - you think they wouldn't have gone to Cordoba if that was an option?
Those unions you hate are the reason you see augmented crews at shorter flight times. Only the shortest TATL flights from the US3 operate 2 crew (basically Northeast to Northwestern Europe).
I'm pretty surprised LH run this with just 3 crew.
The real problem is the Argentinian authorities limiting the CAT III ILS in EZE to RVR 175 m for reasons only known to the Argentinian authorities.
Seems to me there is no use discussing the use of Mayday here without 1) the Lufthansa, ICAO and FDA formal definition of its use, as well as 2) how it has been commonly used in the past decade.