Here’s some air traffic control audio that avgeeks might enjoy. There was no danger here, or anything, but rather it’s just an interesting exchange between some Emirates pilots and air traffic controllers in Toronto.
Continue reading: Standoff: Emirates A380 Pilots Vs. Toronto ATC
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Emirates 241, I don’t know what to tell you.
I’m gonna give you a phone number
you can call yourself
I don’t know what else to tell you.
I can pass you over to apron as well
Perhaps it was at the end of a long shift. Perhaps he should've led with the last line and left it at that.
Phone number" "Hello! Your call is important to us.........."
I flew in to YYZ last week and they made us unload passengers only 50 at a time and in 5 minutes intervals due to "crowding in the customs area." I was expecting a massive queue, but I walked right up to a kiosk with no wait. They seem to be avoiding making passengers have to gather at all.
sounds like Emirates might need to update their paperwork re: what gates and taxiways are usable for an A380
"due to congestion in the international arrivals hall of Terminal 1"
WTF, this isn't at pre pandemic operations yet and there is congestions?
Maybe if you stop treating every arrival as a potential terrorist or criminal (now a virus spreader?) would help with congestion.
I would understand if these agents actually get a bonus for every person they sent back or by the minute when someone is in secondary.
No, I don't intend to do any work in Manitoba. I'm an Eskimo, igloos melt in the prairies.
Props to the Pilot for covering his own ass by not blindly following directions... but it seems counterproductive to refuse to call the number. ATC should've provided more helpful reasoning on why they were giving these instructions.
IME, YYZ ATC does not like to negotiate. 🙂 It's also culturally funny as a Canadian to hear the "I don't know what to tell you" being a provocation. It is perfectly passive-aggressive Canadianese for "I'm not changing my perspective on this / negotiating, and if you keep pushing the issue I'm going to either ignore you or hand you off to someone else."
Flew into YYZ a couple months ago, can confirm the international arrivals were severely congested. COVID protocols made customs a freaking parking lot.
@Ben: I've read about this case, what happened was due to longer procedure for arriving passenger through custom and immigration and capacity limit within T1, they had to unload the big airplane like Emirates A380 in T3. This has been very common since that video, I guess EK updated their paperwork after all...
Emirates would love to land at T3 and not deal with the crowded AC terminal, but there are no gates for the A380 there.
Not a pilot either... Would be interesting, is "calling someone" an acceptable protocol? Can pilot get approval over the phone? Unlike ATC it is not recorded..
I'm a pilot*
The PIC is the absolute ruler of what happens to the A/C. ATC is in an advisory role. People think "Oh we must obey ATC." Sure, so long as its what you're able or wanting to do.
Unable - say "unable". Done.
Unwilling - say "unable". Done.
Refuse - declare PANPAN or MAYDAY and get your way... but fill out paperwork later.
ATC is not God. Neither is the PIC 🙂
Ehud
Tucson Arizona US
* Commercial helicopter pilot, sorry, not a fixed wing, multi-engine, or A380 pilot 🙂
Nobody has commented on... after 18 month, YYZ and the Canadian government is totally inept, at this point, and doesn't have the ground plan to deal with "customs" and COVID formalities... Just like Canada was unprepared to deliver vaccine, the international arrivals across the country are still a mess, with 18 months to have a plan at customs and immigrations, Shame on them. Perhaps Emerites should fly to another city.
Gate C30 at YYZ has already been upgraded and are capable of handling A380 couple years back ( https://www.torontopearson.com/en/whats-happening/stories/gate-c30-upgrade).
I am not a pilot. BS this BS (Bulls...t) about providing pilot with a phone number so he can call is totally unprofessional. Thats ATC,s job to get clarification and forward it to pilot aAthat it has been reconfirmed. Or atleast dont say like my middle child I don't know what to tell you. Typical lazy response.
That was my thought - if it were me and you were asking me to do something that my docs said I shouldnt/couldnt - or even that I believed deviated from SOP I would want it well documented and recorded on an "official channel".
@Fed Up What are you talking about? Two completely disparate points, neither of which have anything to do with the article, let along each other. And rather than regurgitating conservative party talking points on the fantasy that Canada wasn't prepared for vaccines (totally explains why we're among the tops in the world in terms of population fully vaccinated......not!) maybe try having an independent thought of your own. You might find you're on topic a little more
That's true. And ATC (in this case, Ground) is not there to argue on the radio. The phone number is going to be to someone in or around the cab with authority to sort it out. Refusing an instruction on safety reasons is well within the discretion of any PIC outside of Russia. Not copying down the phone number, on the other hand, strikes me as unprofessional.
The Emirates pilots were 100% right to stand firm on their paperwork coz in case of anything wrong they were the first to blame. Thanks to that kind of professionalism.
To “the Reverend” what in the hell do your ramblings about Covid have to do with this post? I would suggest you get some professional help!
ATC could have arranged Wing Walkers as required by the pilot and easily defused the situation. ATC experts may like to confirm.
I flew into terminal 1 at JFK just as the Covid situation was starting. As a health professional I was aware and alert, most others were not. The line for immigration was backed up to the flight gate and people were being pushed backwards as other flights deplaned. This had the makings of a mass spreader event, LOL.
kudos to any airport that controls deplaning.
I was an Emirates Captain on the A380 for many years. My employer (EK) paid my wages to ensure I operated in a 100% safe manner and adhere to their rules/regulations. I would never trust a foreign ATC "authority" to say anything was "ok" when my company said it was not so. Great call by the Captain.
Last time i flew into YYZ we had to sit on the plane for almost one hour after landing because of congestion in the arrivals area.
Canadian arrivals generally suck.
Air traffic control at Toronto was incompetent. They should have been able to explain to the pilots clearly what the situation was. "I don't know what to tell you" is totally unacceptable.
The pilot in command of the aircraft has the final legal responsibility for the operation and safety of thst aircraft. If his paperwork states that the operation as instructed by ATC cannot be complied with, then that pilot in command has no recourse but to refuse to comply. This is his only legal action available. As ATC could offer no alternative action, the pilot's advice that he would apply the brakes is also his only legal recourse after ATC's failure to offer an alternative as he is not permitted to taxi anywhere without a clearance. In this case, pilots 10/10, ATC 0/10.
The Captain is totally responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft until the brakes have been set and the engines are shut down. If his paperwork indicates that the taxiways and gate are not available for his type of aircraft he can NOT continue via the routing cleared by ATC. If there is a discrepancy between his printed information and what ATC says, this discrepancy must be resolved prior to him moving the aircraft. He is 100% responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft, and in this case was quite correct in taking the safest course of action and setting the parking brake prior to any further movement. His request for a "follow me" vehicle and wing walkers was very appropriate and well within reason. The ground controller could have quite easily arranged to have these provided, and was unprofessional in his reluctance to take the safest form of action and arrange for these requests.
Absolutely, Pilot is responsible for the safety of vehicle till the gate and brake are applied and engine off. Pilot's request and questioning in this case ( being a giant A380 with that wing span ) is correct. Besides he( Pilot) wouldn't not be knowing there are no other planes on either side of the said gate C34A unless he was told clearly about the situation at the gate. I am not saying ATF is wrong here. None the less a funny air conversation.
It's not uncommon to direct aircraft pilots to contact other entities on the airport who have responsibility for parking, gate areas, the apron, etc.
ATC is responsible for movement areas on the airport (taxiways, runways, airspace). The other aspects are handled by airport management, airlines, ramp control and so on. It was not providing a disservice to the pilot by directing him to the proper authority who could give him a correct answer.
Apron control was obviously a frequency used by the ramp control area (always recorded). Other phone numbers where movement of air traffic may be discussed is most likely recorded as well.
This was not a heated argument in my 20+ years of ATC experience. It was a miscommunication that probably could have been handled a little more effectively, but was handled nonetheless.
Let's also consider how much time, energy and frequency congestion was caused by this interaction. I'm sure the YYZ ground controller had other aircraft on frequency requiring his attention as well.
I agree. And the pilot's main concern isn't just getting into trouble for being where he/she shouldn't but rather they could seriously damage the aircraft if they do. What pilot doesn't question that, even not knowing the actual risks? If taxiways are off limits then there must be some risk to using them, does that mean they could wing clip something?
Wing span or the aircraft is heavier than what the pavement has been rated to be able to accommodate. It's not cost effective to make all taxiways or ramps compliant with the ability to hold all weights of aircraft based on common users of the airport in certain areas.
As a pilot, I can tell you that the Emirates pilot did the right thing. Whether his paperwork was up-to-date or not, that's his company's issue. He is ultimately the final responsible authority for the safe operation of the aircraft. ATC does not have that responsibility. Any time ATC issues an instruction a pilot cannot or should not comply with, the pilot should respond "Unable" and explain why. The pilot did the right thing, and the outcome was a good one. (Imagine if the pilot had been cowed into taxing to an area that is unsafe for his plane, other planes, or people on the ground? We would all be criticizing the foolishness of that pilot. This is an example of exercising prudent decision-making in the cockpit.)
Better to be safe than sorry and I applaud the captain and his crew for safe thinking
as a pilot in command you are responsible for your aircraft, they did the right thing , set up the parking brake and wait until ATC gets their crap together…
I agree with all the posts that clearly indicate that the pilot in command is the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the aircraft crew and passengers. I am a general aviation pilot and that is always been ingrained in my training. I feel the Emirates pilot did absolutely the right thing his caution was insurance that there would be no jeopardy to him his crew the passengers or the aircraft.
No question whatsoever... the Pilot is the last line of defense for ensuring plane/passenger safety. The buck stops with him/her.
I was the other ground controller in this event. The crux of the issue was that the Emirates pilot had misread a notam (from a few months earlier) whereby A taxiway and the apron lane were code F restricted. He apologised later. We were all laughing at my colleague as he was trying to deal with this.
EK pilot was correct in sticking to his guns. Priority is safety to aircraft, crew and passengers, always!
The key moment is at 3:05 in the video - the pilot said "but there's also a NOTAM..." "ah...." silence while he actually reads the NOTAM...
"ah sorry we messed up the time, I apologize."
-you don't just move an A380 operation from one terminal to another at the last minute..... ground equipment need to be re-positioned, ground crew and gate agents need to be ready to receive the aircraft at the other terminal, etc etc. That's not a decision that's made at the last minute
-In addition, it was reported elsewhere that EK moved operations to T3 on certain days of the week for the summer season, so that tells me it was very much planned
-the ground controller knew their gate assignment as C34A. And when he checked-in with Apron, they were clearly ready to receive the aircraft at C34A (with safety officer and wing walkers waiting for their arrival) The ONLY people that weren't aware of their gate assignment were the EK pilots
I usually see gate assignments sent up to the cockpit via ACARS. Or, pilots radio company operations before landing to get their gate assignment. The taxi route is discussed as part of the briefing. These pilots were unprepared. They probably thought they've been to Toronto many times, always the same gate, so they knew where they were going and no need to check.
I think their chief pilot will be having a chat with them (or already have by now).
@Mat - that was only one of the two issues.
Emirates uses LH Systems Lido for their ground charts. The ground charts used by 380 pilots will use three colours (green, yellow, red) to visibly show where on the airport the 380 is allowed to taxi / which gates it can use. This is meant to ensure the 380 doesn't collide with obstacles, taxiway weights, etc. The latest ground charts for YYZ show the entire area around T3 as red, meaning they aren't allowed to taxi in the area. The pilot's skepticism was correct. The charts should have been updated, but evidently were not.
Being an Intl pilot I can attest to not wanting to call a phone number. The My cell phone won't work in foreign country unless I have wifi. I fly one of the most advanced airliners but it doesn't have wifi on the cockpit. It's readily available to passengers, go figure? The 380 is a monster and most airports taxiways and gates can't handle it. Set the brakes and phone patch through ops to verify that the aircraft is suitable to do what controller asks. A no brainer, just time consuming. No harm no foul. This conversation wasn't heated. Chicago or LaGuardia, that's where it gets heated. Liberty/Jersey is another.
This is likely the fault of air traffic controller's lack of knowledge or failure to explain. The only reason why the A380 could actuall park at otherwise a prohibited (red) gate was that BOTH GATES ON THE SIDES WERE EMPTY.
Air traffic controller should have clearly explained that to the pilots. Furthermore, it was not professional to ask the pilot to call a phone number from the cockpit. Air traffic controller is supposed to be the only point of contact at the airport for the pilots under normal circumstances and even in emergencies.
I agree with your logic and I agree with the plan. I really do not understand a mobile phone not working International. Either pay what the International plan costs or switch to T-mo. There is a 30 second delay when I turn on my phone in a new Country but then it figures out where it is and works.
The majority have spoken and we think ATC is a MAJOR DICK. Imagine hearing "I don't know what to tell you."! I disagree with whoever it was that said both parties were acting professionally. Clearly that terse remark shows ATC was not acting professionally. Big round of applause to the pilot for sticking to his guidelines. Now that's what I call a real professional.
I wanted to wait and see if anyone sides with ATC. Apparently no one.
Comments from @Mat have already proven the pilot misread the NOTAM, nor the obsolete chart was ATC or YYZ fault. But seems the victim here is EK not ATC.
What I can see is pilots and cabin crew seems to have grown their ego lately. They seem to be very authoritarian lately. They were bullying passengers, now ATC. They can't use security as an excuse anymore, this abuse of power. Sticking to his guidelines doesn't mean he can bully anyone into getting what he wants. Sounds like Karen called the cops on ATC.
Maybe time to reconsider who is a MAJOR DICK?
I thought USA is a free country. Organizations like NRA wouldn't be happy if someone else is in control.
Covid should have teach you one thing. If people are dumb enough to put themselves in harms way, maybe they deserve to get infected. Especially when countermeasures like vaccines are available now. Also putting dumb people in command makes it worse. The congestion at JFK was because they shutdown all the kiosk and force CBP to interview everyone about where they were the last few weeks. Anyone who visited China 6 months prior got secondary screening from some 'health expert' who (as with everyone in early 2020) have no clue about Covid at all.
As a health professional who was aware and alert, I'm sure you could have survived Covid anywhere even without PPE.
That's half a BILLION dollars worth of plane there, not to mention the value of the people and cargo. The pilots have to look out for the passengers and crew as well as the aircraft. If they were to use a taxiway not rated for 1.25 MILLION pounds, they could literally sink thru the concrete. If their paperwork says NO, then it is a NO. They did the right thing to say no, and verify and re-verify.
The Emirates pilot prioritized the safety of the aircraft considering that the paper works he held were approved for the gate he expected or he has been using for many flights in YYZ- while the other tax way was marked red( according to his paperwork's) he was scared to jeopardize the safety of the aircraft though after through coodination of ground traffic controllers the issue got solved amicably...this was a good professional way of operations both sides....Emirates management has been keeping and considering,priorotising the security and safety at its utmost throughout his operations and network..
Well done . clearly spelled out by both parties..well experienced pilot and TC officials
Safety first
Latest jeppesen chart, Valid from October 7 shows A as "Operations with limitations" and restrictions are explained within the chart, I can't see the chart that was valid before October 7th ..if flight was after that date the pilot may have misunderstood the magenta coloured routes as prohibited instead of limited .....i
as an ex-ATC I stand with the pilot in command... the pilot makes the decision.. my job to make it work... too many times pilots reluctant to "make waves" and the situations then worsen.. good job by both
Hahahaha....the point is that the pilots even if they erred were on the side of safety, so what if the ground crew was at their cocky best, pilots did the right thing.
What you failed to understand was the connotation of ATC's voice/comment...It wasn't an "I DON'T KNOW" comment, it was "LISTEN TO ME BUTTHEAD" comment...
The ATC could have been a tad more professional. Telling a Pilot”I don’t know what to tell you” that’s the stuff accidents are made off. Good for the pilot!
First off, ATC is talking to the pilot, but ATC is not responsible for gate assignment or movement on the apron. The controller sees a gate number on an electronic display, he relays that to the pilot and then issues instructions to proceed on taxiways (surfaces he 'owns') to the apron and eventually the gate. When the aircraft approaches the apron (a surface he is not responsible for) he transfers the aircraft over to Apron Control for movement to the gate. When ATC issued the gate number the pilot didn't find acceptable, he had nothing else to offer, certainly not a different gate since, again, he's not responsible for gates. All he could do in this case was offer a phone number the pilot could use to connect with someone who could rectify the situation. The pilot did the right thing in holding his position, but that is normal procedure. If he can't comply with an ATC instruction, he stops until the routing is clarified and he's given something that is acceptable. There's nothing noteworthy in the controllers statement 'I don't know what to tell you' because there is no fancy way to say that. The only thing that surprises me is that that a pilot driving a half-billion dollar aircraft can't make a simple telephone call to a local number. I have a pretty good handle on this. I work in the tower.
I know the 380 Capt I flew with him in a different life ( company) in northern Ontario long before he went to Emirates and I went to Air Canada and while he was being extremely careful that is his job well done Kev