This has major implications for American, JetBlue, and the industry overall.
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This was expected and validates what many of us said which is that the Northeast alliance crossed the line in the level of cooperation between 2 domestic airlines.
This is also a huge slap on the wrist of the DOT’s antitrust division which approved the deal. And it also gives the DOJ a much needed win in its antitrust efforts.
It will help move the SAVE merger forward but raises serious doubts about AAL’s northeast US strategies
AA and B6 to unwind not just reduce the Alliance
Big news indeed
Tough to say whether I prefer having 3 giant competitors or 2 giant competitors and some smaller competitors in the space
JetBlue is a sub-par managed airline and out of its league attempting to be a global carrier by or via overnight shortcuts.
The challenge here is that its not really convincing that "competition for Delta" or "competition for United" is justification for what the courts appear to view as illegal collusion between two would be competitors in American and JetBlue. It would be preferable, for example, if both JetBlue and American decided to compete on their own in terms of price, service, ground experience, etc. I know slot restrictions are a "gating" factor here, but JetBlue and American can surely do better by just straight up competing. JetBlue should be introducing its own lounges at JFK and at LGA, for example. American should be flying better routes with better planes from JFK and LGA, for example. Go out there and compete. All that said I would expect AA and JetBlue to seek a stay and appeal.
Good! This HAD to go. It violated just about every competition standard that ever was.
The airlines are already pushing it, with the foreign anti-trust immune alliances in an era of increased foreign stakeholding and liberalized skies...
...but domestic ATI?? Hell no!
Think back to DL/UA's domestic codeshare in the lower 48. They pulled it before it even had the chance to end up in court, because they were terrified of the precedent it would set. Well, this just did the job for 'em.
Good for the courts!
Good for competition.
Hell, good for JetBlue-- at least this increases the probability of their merger going through, to whatever degree.
All while not even being able to connect most of the country, outside of the northeast and California.
Yet they're worried about London and Amsterdam, lol. Rudderless.
I think this is a sad reflection on AA (and to a lesser extent JetBlue). I'm NYC and FTL based, so I see the pathetic sad JFK T8 that AA calls it's "hub". Its empty compared to DL (T4/T2), and JetBlue (T5). AA can absolutely organically grow capacity in JFK, the reality is AA's hard and soft product is CRAP vs. DL and to a lesser extent UA out of EWR. No flier will willingly choose to fly AA over DL if the price/schedules are similar. Although DL SkyMiles has much less rewarding redemption value vs. AAdvantage, the reality is NY based fliers willingly suck it up and are DL loyal with their superior product. Ask any NY based Citi/AAdvantage cardmember how they feel about AA and you'll get your answer.
I much prefer AA to DL. DL has the worst domestic F legroom among the US3. Skyclubs are overcrowded and not worth spending time in. Skymiles is absolute trash of an FF program. Skyteam just does not consist of any great airlines. The list goes on.
As an NY based flier and AA EXP, I will only take DL if AA doesn't fit my schedule. UA is my last choice because of their awful boarding process.
Regarding this ruling however, I only flew B6 because of this alliance and my AA elite benefits. Jetblue is a dumpster fire of an airline that can't even run a reliable operation. Why people are loyal to them is beyond me. Once the alliance comes to an end, I will not set foot on a B6 aircraft unless absolutely necessary.
This will probably help thin out NYC over the summer as well (airlines at both JFK and LGA, and I'm assuming EWR, have been asked to do so). I'll bet AA pulls a decent bit of longhaul capacity, now that they are losing so much stateside feed.
Stuff like JFK-DOH, which is reportedly doing horrible despite being hub2hub: gone.
Wouldn't even be surprised to see JFK-FCO/ATH, which can easily fill but on crap fares: gone too.
American can maintain interline agreements with JetBlue. They just can’t share revenue or jointly plan capacity or swap slots
Funny, there’s a blocked airliners.net account with a lord of the rings elf, LAX, and a 200LR with the same amount of undeserved sense of intelligent entitlement mixed with arrogance as you. But that loves to act smart based on nothing in the same way you do…
Good to see you’ve picked up where you were blocked off.
I was an AA status holder until March. I flew Jetblue in the beginning of March from MIA-JFK and then onwards to DFW on the same ticket. B6 was charging $121 while AA was charging $300 o/w or $400 r/t on MIA-DFW. So, I booked Jetblue for a cheaper price. But I got a superior product with IFE, comfortable seats, free snacks. I also got my AA Gold benefits on B6. I got to use the Mosaic line everywhere (Check-in, boarding, JFK T5 Customer service). I also had the best customer experience ever. The B6 agents at MIA were so nice at check in. Also, my MIA-JFK flight had an aircraft swap to a Mint configured A321, meaning it had a snack bar for all of us. And the FA's were the best economy FA's I've ever had! I also got to visit the T5 rooftop lounge.
I'm going to miss this partnership
I hope you opened your best champagne (Korbel) today, tim! It’s your day!
You’ve been waiting for the day delta got rid of their competitors in NYC for so long
You must be so happy
Drink up! Make sure all your drunk alter egos are ready to support you!
If you can somehow tie in the 777 and a350 order to this, I’ll be so proud of you
Funnier still, it's almost like you believe you've discovered something. Get a life.
American can maintain interline agreements with JetBlue
Sure, but (to the OP's point) that ain't gonna do it. They could've interlined with Delta, for that matter. Heathrow and probably Rome can survive off O&D, but no way some of their more marginal stuff makes it, unless they do another organic buildup, which would come way too late for this summer season.
Even funnier, you know what I’m talking about
Welcome back. You and tim now have something in common: blocked from a website for being annoying and having no credibility.
The hell are you prattling on about? I've been here and elsewhere for years, and I'm always banned from that retarded site, half the time I'll take one on purpose if the dunk on a mod is worth it. Fuck'em... and you for that matter. 🙂
I think this late in the season ruling shows that the Government is playing favorites and is unfair. I hope AA wins in a more fair courtroom. The Government created the current situation we all have to deal when traveling to NYC, then a creative work around is done to HELP competition in the region and they squash it. Let's see how all these politicians like higher prices, worse schedules, older planes, and less economic impact for a few years. Forget NYC. Move flights back to Philly and Charlotte and DFW.
The only thing "unfair" is that this was ever allowed in the first place, which BTW was more or less the court's conclusion.
It will be appealed and likely allowed to continue until that is resolved. This idiotic Dim anti-business administration can’t be gone soon enough!
If you're upset this is "unfair" and concerned about higher prices, worse schedules, and crappy planes, I hope you never need to fly domestic in Australia or Canada...
PMAA has never seen all that committed to New York other than some Premerger AA primary routes. This seemed to be management's answer to New York. I wonder if B6 would consider joining One World now?
no, just no.
AA was the largest carrier at JFK just over 20 years ago and its merger partner had nearly half of the slots at LGA - and both squandered those advantages.
The government and US consumers are not obligated to allow laws to be broken to bail companies out of their bad decisions.
the marginal stuff didn't make sense and wouldn't have survived anyway.
It isn't the international feed that is doomed but the domestic routes that AA transferred to B6 under the guise that AA couldn't make money flying routes that DL and UA both fly from their respective hubs.
The international markets weren't part of the revenue sharing agreement anyway.
I used to fly B6 once a week out of BOS prior to Covid... boy did Covid chang JetBlues strategy. First, the NEA had real flaws, JetBlue would price BOS to DCA nonstop at $499 for economy when AA had First Class for $399, Jet Blue admitted to me via emails from customer service they basically became a Florida Airline instead of a Northeast airline and didn't care about the NE business clientele anymore. I have screen shots of the pricing and sent to the MA AG office fyi.... Mint is still hands down the best domestic product in the USA and if I need to red eye from the west coast to BOS I'm going to fly Mint, however everything else about JetBlue lacks in comparison. That and the extortion they exhibited to their loyal business clientele literally drove everyone I know (and all my employees btw) to Delta as they responded to the NEA mess and invested heavily in Boston. Delta is now our preferred carrier for my company and that is AA/JB's loss....
fun new standard. 20 year old positions both gone after AA and US merged. How do you even come up with this nonsense?
thanks for confirming the nonsense. There are very few people that can match the ridiculous nonsense and entitlement with zero reason... thanks for saying hey. Nice to see you again.
Regardless of who you say you are, despite obvious correlation to how you speak to others with zero knowledge on the topic... thanks for acknowledging you're also banned from A.net. It took Tim a full year before he admitted his former alter ego on A.net, who knows why... he was so proud of it for years... It's ok to admit to other users you're actually banned from other websites. It helps credibility for everyone when you and Tim spout the nonsense you normally do.
you seem to think I care? My day isn't ruined when AA or UA have a bad day. Try it... DL should've have such an emotional hold on you.
I feel like a bad faith arguer, since I don’t commute CHI->NYC on a regular basis, but from scanning the flights on Google on a regular basis there’s a pretty solid floor from the competition that already exists. The $53 OW fare war on Delta, United, and AA for August onward is pretty good as well.
IMO, JetBlue has offered very little over AA, besides free WiFi. They charge for a carry on with their basic economy fare, like United does. I do agree with the analysis that this hurts JetBlue’s prospects (I guess) which was enhanced interline benefits from American, but it was a cost saver for the company, not really consumers. I also agree AA is poorly situated in New York, if I recall correctly they’re all… the way in the back of Terminal 8.
JetBlue really seems to excel in the east and west coasts but I have never seen any competition from them in the midwest or south markets, so perhaps that Spirit acqusition will help them out there.
"This has major implications for American’s presence in New York, as the airline will need a new strategy." "American" and "strategy" should never be used in the same sentence.
Well, I‘m rather envious of the well functioning US antitrust legislation. Meanwhile in Europe: LH monopolizing the Italian, Swiss and Austrian markets - waved through. IAG monopolizing Spain - probably waved through ….
it is YOU that has the emotional baggage that you find it necessary to drag people into conversations and mention ME in this discussion before I ever addressed you.
Get help. Seriously
truer words have never been spoken.
AA has never figured out how to compete in the deregulated intensely competitive markets of the NE and west coast. Their strategy has been to withdraw and look for other carriers to help carrier their backside across the goal line.
The opportunities that AA has squandered cannot possibly be counted.
The sad thing (for AA) is that DL and UA's sales teams are undoubtedly out in full force this weekend plucking the carnage of the NEA and signing up new corporate clients while AA tries to implement their next plan.
Lina Khan’s woke agenda spreads to other agencies.
JB’s going for the gold to beat Trump as our worst president.
Dislike them both.
Get a life, Tim. 😉 I hope it involves more than your laptop and personal living room. Most of us have that, but we also don't live and die around Delta route decisions or a couch reminiscing about what could've been before DL fired us...
Must be a fun life.
You mean the beginning of the end of AA in JFK…. The NEA gave something for the 190s to do at JetBlue, it was advantageous initially for B6 but their commitments to AA ended up smothering their organic growth plans. They are privately celebrating in LIC, not so much in Dallas!
There has been enough consolidation in the airline industry in this country. No more mergers or alliances.
“Could American have grown in New York on its own? Sure.”
Care to elaborate on this comment? Considering both LGA & JFK are slot controlled airports, I don’t know how AA could have grown in New York on its own.
YOU are the one that is clearly torqued at the decision by a federal judge today.
You've trashed two other people here after trying to do the same thing on other sites all week long.
You have NOTHING to contribute. Nothing.
So you attack people.
Everything you write about other people is EXACTLY a self-portrait.
This may prove beneficial for the Spirit acquisition. I never felt AA treated or customers the way we treated theirs. I like the comment about AA customers II getting a taste of better service, and bringing JFK flights back to CLT.
On my 7th hour of overtime today, I can assure you there are no celebrations at LSC today. Nice armchair commentary though!
If they truly want to keep it they will appeal the ruling and obtain a stay. Simple…. But we both know it was an open industry secret it was always going to be the NEA Or the Merger, not both!
Good to know as AA flyer. No matter how "generous" free wifi and "friendly" crew are, JetBlue is an airline that cannot override 2 mins of MCT at any level, and has poor connecting services out of anywhere, including JFK and BOS. speaking about trivial stuff like "service" - man I never thought any US airline has something called service - is simply unimportant if you cannot get home at first place. Not to mention that B6 finally would part with AA sooner or later, as their LON and CDG routes are basically robbing AA's biggest lunch bowl. Like I said multiple times before: Mr. Vasu Raja, AA's Chief Commercial Officer, should stop thinking in the way that letting others fly and take JV revenue. This does not work. GET YOUR OWN FLIGHTS.
I really don’t have a dog in this fight even as an AA EXP. JFK has been a dead hub for me for years and PHL was once a very robust hub for my international travel needs but that place has been thinned out and I hope if any good comes out of this ruling it would be that AA fixes the PHL sooner rather than later. The old Envoy lounge at A15 which closed in October 2019 to build a Flagship Lounge is still boarded up nearly four years later and the two remaining Admirals Clubs are crowded and poor.
AA had 213 departure slots at JFK last summer, and IINM have gotten more since. From what I can see, they're only using 201 as of now. And a good bit of that is both RJs and hub2hub, even during the Euro-rush periods.
So yes, they can grow, by both gauge and destination realignment.
The part about reduced frequencies/hiked prices and the subsequent lesser service to the community is factual , at least for my most frequent city pair
Whether other alliances have previously led to the same is true as well, and no ruling was issued then
I guess the wind has changed
I love how you're acting like you've discovered some great secret. Hell, I beat Sean M.'s record for A.net banning long ago, lol. That's known. Site's a bigger joke than you are, with this.
The court released an extensive powerpoint of their findings and it is as patently inaccurate as can be to say that the court failed to prove that the NEA was uncompetitive and collusionary.
It really doesn't matter if some people on social media don't get it.
The words and internal documents of AAL and JBLU execs extensively show that the NEA was intended to suppress competition, did it, and AAL specifically chose to pursue the NEA even though it knew it could achieve most of the results using an ALK style partnership - but they chose the NEA anyway.
3 years later, AAL and JBLU now have to immediately undo in 30 days their bad decisions, are both now worse off than they were before the NEA, and have provided an even greater opportunity for competitors to grow than if they both grew on their own.
The court found those points and anyone that argues otherwise simply doesn't want to face the truth.
The court itself showed that DL and UA both have grown as they intended to do all along - something AA and B6 did not do because of the NEA. That in itself is the definition of collusion to suppress competition
There is no viable case for an appeal.
The judge also showed that AA specifically considered an AS-style relationship with B6 but chose to pursue the NEA which they knew was counter to US antitrust laws.
Now they have to undo on 30 days notice what they created and B6 will have to compete with DL and UA.
Those are the words of the judge, not mine.
Don't rely on my words. Read what the judge and execs of AA and B6 competitors said on the witness stand.
DL and UA execs testified in the case - including saying that the NEA did not change their plans to grow in the NE - which is what the judge wanted to hear from AA and B6 but instead the NEA caused them to STOP competing against each other - which is the very definition of collusion.
The fact that I was one of the few that recognized these principles years ago when others were touting the benefits of the NEA simply says that I have a far better grasp of the airline industry than a whole lot of other people
B6 Girl,
Unless you were part of the leadership team you would not be privy to any such celebration anyways, this get B6 off the hook of the $700m+ breakup fee, and eliminates a big impediment for the NK merger. As Sosong said it was either the NEA or the merger, it was never going to be both.
Shouldn’t a government prioritize the interests of the people over business interests? The first three words of the US Constitution are “We the people” not “We the businesses.”
lol. Well, the words of Tim Dunn just settle it then, huh?
no room for appeal. It's dunn, per Tim... 😉
Given the government approved the NEA then unapproved it, there's plenty of room for appeal.
And it's a bit laughable to suggest UA and DL had no competitive response to the NEA... sure. I saw the DOJ slides with those quotes but those are pretty laughable but also predictable from DL & UA. AA has a VP that knew all about DL's NEA response because he ran Delta's network for two months under Esposito but DOJ Conveniently didn't quote him in that slide...
it's hardly surprising or newsworthy that AA & B6 would say they weren't competing against each other when they asked DOT for that specific approval to do just that and received that approval. Your gotcha "they said they don't compete" ignores that they got government approval to collude. Why is it a surprise that they'd say in court that they don't?
"The fact that I was one of the few that recognized these principles years ago when others were touting the benefits of the NEA simply says that I have a far better grasp of the airline industry than a whole lot of other people"
And please... you said nothing of relevance simply keep talking about collusion and lack of competition when that's what the Government approved AA & B6 to do in those markets. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I had a good cry after these touching words. Thanks. Good to see you're active as ever on a Friday night from your couch.
Their competition grew, and that's evidence to you of anti competitive behavior? So if their competition shrunk, that would be evidence to you of healthy competition?
A.net is a joke yet you keep going back to get banned under new names to have the record for number of times banned desperately seeking to post, despite the ban.
Sure… you don’t care 😉
Thanks for the comic relief
DL and UA both clearly said they grew as they intended to do.
The NEA case showed there is a whole lot more evidence about airline growth that can be demanded to be seen in court and DL and UA presumably were required to provide evidence of their plans. As much as you want to see demons behind every doorknob, the court was capable of seeing the industry and AA/B6 for what they all are.
as other people can clearly see, Max, you aren't logical but emotional whenever you respond to industry issues.
The evidence is not what you want it to be but what it is.
In this case, DL and UA had and were executing legally allowable strategies while AA and B6 were not. It is pretty simple
as I have noted, this is as much a slap on the wrist of the DOT's antitrust division for approving the NEA - because the NEA violates acceptable standards of competition which has always been established by the DOJ.
AA has dealt with the DOJ many times over its life; they know the rules and chose to violate them even if B6 didn't have the history and could claim they didn't know better.
People at the DOT should have known the limits of their authority but they did not and AA and B6 are both paying the price
naw. Just facts and logic. thanks though, Tim. The appeal is obvious & inevitable and we'll see how it goes.
I have no doubt you're thrilled though since Delta has less competitors as you've even said they're out this weekend in NYC taking away nea contracts.
lol. This is such a Tim thing to say... DOT has the authority to approve a tie up like the NEA but they overstepped their boundaries?
I could personally care less if the NEA goes or stays but this is a very obvious politically motivated case from DOJ. The idea that the government approves something then, in a different administration, the government sues over it is just banana republic nonsense.
Does the government ask what the allegedly affected people think before making such rulings? We flew at the last minute with JetBlue from Florida to Washington for less than $100 each. We got exit row seats with huge legroom because of my status with American. There is nothing bad about this partnership.
Tim nailed you in description: creepy stalking habits aside, you read things that aren't even there; feel free to show me where I said (or even insinuated) anything about not caring?
I think American should have worked on organically improving its own product to compete with Delta and United. Simply cozying up with JetBlue in this Northeast Alliance seemed like a lazy band-aid measure by the management to fix the many years they had spent ruining the airline (and the last few airlines it acquired since the management remained the same). The many years they spent turning it into an overpriced ULCC that nobody wants to fly on unless they live in Dallas, Charlotte, or Philadelphia, in which case they're forced to. American should have instead spent those years to put in the work to make their hard and soft product comparable to or better than JetBlue. If Delta and now United can do it, why can't they? Maybe if they have a better product it would do wonders to make "Dallas Airlines" relevant in the New York City market again. Or a better network. Dallas Airlines needs to be aware that there's more to the world than LHR and South America. United was already aware of that ages ago. Oh well, I don't have much hope given who's running American. I'm guessing within 30 days, they'll probably announce cuts to those international routes they launched at JFK recently (which they launched on the assumption that this alliance would happen), retreat back to you-know-where, and essentially go back to being US Airways.
I’m a little confused so apologize if this is a dumb question, but does this ruling only affect BOS-NYC flights or the partnership as a whole? I’m not Northeast based, but do fly PHX-BOS quite a lot. This particular Jetblue route isn’t a codeshare - would status benefits still apply in this case?
Absolutely agree. American failed to expand and now needs another airline's customers to succeed. Delta grew on it's own. American has had too many missed opportunities - and now it shows. Management without a vision. Stop playing catch up. Strive to be a LEADER.