Alaska Airlines has just unveiled plans to launch two new routes to Europe in the summer of 2027, as the airline will fly to both Athens, Greece, and Paris, France. This builds on the carriers recent expansion, as it tries to turn its main hub airport into a global gateway.
Somewhat logical and illogical.
Paris is certainly the second most popular Europe destination, it's a necessary destination to serve, but DL/AF have a stronghold in that market. They go up to 2x daily in the summer.
Quite frankly, Alaska's loadings to Europe have been poor, 60% for FCO in June. I can't imagine that they'll be able to succeed on additional secondary destinations like ATH much better. You don't even see United flying SFO to ATH and that's even with a Star Alliance partner on the other end.
But at 3x weekly it's possible ATH will work out unlike dumping daily capacity into FCO.
"but DL/AF have a stronghold in that market." Uhh, did you see what Delta's doing with Tokyo? Because this makes sense if AS wants to actually compete with its rivals.
(However, if US carriers just a well-coordinated oligopoly/mafia, true, this would not be very effective collusion, so, in that case, obviously, don't do this, because those guys already fly there, so this'll just flood supply, captured markets don't actually like 'free' markets, blah, blah, blah...)
What does DL's NRT route have to do with this? DL and AF have an actual joint venture as well. Alaska competes with JAL.
So once again you run your mouth with no actual point.
*whoosh* yolo, dawg, go easy on the 420—you know better than to play dumb with me.
My point remains: Delta flying Seattle–Tokyo Narita (clearly you knew about it because you distinguished between NRT and HND) challenges Alaska at its own HQ, which is a direct parallel to what Alaska is doing by competing with the DL/AF joint-venture stronghold in SEA-Paris. That is how domestic rivals vie for hub dominance, alliance partnerships aside. (Sober up!)
It's literally not a direct parallel, given that Delta already flew SEA to HND, which serves as competition to Alaska's SEA to NRT route.
And the fact that Alaska has no joint venture partners on SEA to NRT. Delta does on SEA to CDG.
You're constantly trying to piece together things that aren't there to sound coherent, but it's not working.
(Again, I get it, yolo, but go easy on that thang.) You're relying on a technicality that doesn't actually matter here. JV or no JV, the economic behavior is identical. A legacy carrier is aggressively adding capacity into a market to crowd out a domestic rival. Whether Delta flies to Narita because they ran out of Haneda slots or to stack capacity in Seattle, they are stepping right into Alaska's back yard. You're hiding behind alliance semantics to dodge the fact that network carriers aggressively cross into each other's territories all the time. Alaska flying to Paris against a DL/AF stronghold is the literal exact definitive obvious same strategic play. Keep reaching (for that next b*ng hit), though.
Opa! Baguette. Ouzo! Eiffel Tower. Parthenon! Hon hon hon...
(Good for them. More the merrier. Hope AS hires a few more FAs for the back, though.)
Hard to believe AS mgmt believes it can build a sustainable international route system w seasonal leisure destinations and outside of joint ventures
Oneworld hubs like MAD and SYD make much more sense
I'd imagine MAD and SYD are coming but maybe waiting until a JV gets approved before launching. It sounds like that has been in the works for a while.
Not sure what's wrong with flying to Europe in the summer, it's basically impossible to lose money doing that. What kills you is figuring out where to send those planes in the winter, and maybe the answer just ends up being HAWAII.
There's a few things I would have done differently if I were AS, for example putting new interiors in the dreamliners before branding it as Alaska, or getting plugged into OW hubs before flying elsewhere. But a lot of those things take time and I'm sure they didn't want to wait until 2030 to start flying. Will be some growing pains I'm sure but I'd imagine the end product will look quite rational.
Maybe in the long-run routes like FCO and ATH don't work out and Alaska retrenches to just flying to OW hubs, that would probably be Delta's "best case" scenario. I highly doubt the international flying ever goes away entirely. But you have to be willing to try things! Being the #1 airline in Seattle is "existential" to Alaska according to their own execs. Taking a big swing at international when that's historically been the one thing your competitor could do that you couldn't.
Your comments are hilarious. Rome is already coming back next year because it has done extremely well. Is your Delta fanboy status your source?
As mentioned elsewhere on this website, Alaska needs to add a premium economy section to the B787 & A330 fleet. This would make these long distance flights more attractive.
I've never thought deeply about this before, but does travel demand between North America and Asia also peak in Summer? Or does seasonality work a bit different for it than from NA to Europe?
The demand between NA and Asia is quite consistent because it's not heavily reliant on tourism, but rather on VFR and business.
I wish AS add AU/NZ flights in the winter to compensate for the reduced demand to Europe. The seasonality is exactly the opposite between AU/NZ and Europe, and no other airlines fly between SEA and AU/NZ.
@S_Lee-- I like your idea of a pivot to NZ/AU service in the northern winter. I suspect those flights would be extremely popular as there has never before been nonstop service to that part of the world from SEA and a lot of PNW people like to go there. It would also be a decent competitive move against DL and its LAX hub.
I am much less excited about ATH and CDG, as they are both seasonal. @Ben, I think your statement that SEA-CDG will run all year is incorrect. Here's what the AS press release actually said: "The new route will provide guests with convenient nonstop access to Paris five times per week through the fall.". I suppose that could mean that service will run less than 5 times per week at other times of the year but I doubt it.
Regardless, AS's CDG flights will go head to head against a year round presence of both DL and AF, who are in a joint venture, and both operate the route. In summer, there are already 2 flights per day 5 days per week and a single flight the other 2 days of the week. That's a lot of capacity and AS won't have much, if any, connectivity beyond CDG. (I looked up which terminal at CDG AS will use. The answer was 2D, where the only other oneworld carrier is Finnair. That likely won't help.). Based on the press release, I think AS is expecting a fair amount of oneworld loyalist connections at SEA and they also note that the timing works well for Hawaii connections. That could work for some smaller California cities, too, but both LAX and SFO already have plenty of CDG nonstops.
I think my biggest concern is summer weather lately across Europe, which has been horrible in both Greece and France. It's nice to get a nonstop to a destination never before served but it would also have been nice for AS decision makers to have read weather reports. Just my two cents.
Always good to have more competition in SEA
Wish I could “Helpful” you, but I think it’s either broken or I’ve used my daily rations.
@1990--I have noticed that sometimes, I am unable to react to others' posts, too. I find that logging out and back in fixes that. It's annoying but it works.
@Ben--you might want to see about fixing this issue
I think we’re about to see more of the “AS network planners determining DL routes” strategy. lol
Cue DL’s SEA-ATH announcement in 3, 2, 1…
I have to admit that idea also crossed my mind. However, if I were Delta, I might counter with LAX-ATH nonstops, potentially siphoning off connecting traffic from elsewhere in California while also building up its LAX hub (which, apparently, is getting a second DeltaOne Lounge).
100% agree. Delta should counter Athens from LAX. Even as a seasonal route 3-4x/week, it would be BOOMING in the summer.
Delta doesn't even fly to its partner hubs in LAX to LHR or AMS, they don't even do CDG daily year-round, what makes you think an even longer, thinner route could work.
@yoloswag420--That depends entirely on your definition of "work.". If sticking it to a budding competitor is a goal of DL--and that seems to be the case with AS--why not try LAX-ATH on a seasonal, non-daily basis? Unlike the other routes from LAX you mentioned, there is currently no direct competition on LAX-ATH. There would be direct competition on SEA-ATH. And, I should point out that the other LAX routes you mentioned (CDG, AMS, LHR) are all operated by DL's joint venture partners, on a metal neutral basis--and DL owns equity stakes in both AF-KLM and Virgin Atlantic. So, in a sense, it does fly those routes and it definitely earns revenue from them.
Yolo, what are you even talking about.
From an article in WSJ: “It was a clear message to Delta Air Lines, which has been developing a foothold for years, that it is going to fight for lucrative international travelers in the bustling corporate hub it calls home. (Delta quickly added Seattle to Rome to its lineup after Alaska announced its plans.)”
AS and DL are basically at-war in SEA. You’re just playing contrarian with everyone and anyone on here. Psh.
Love AS, but still flying DL internationally from SEA...
- AS 787 still missing Premium Economy Cabin
- AS 787 economy cabin is 3-3-3 vs Delta's more couple friendly 2-4-2 A330-900s
- No BCN flight
Wholeheartedly agree. I'm Midwest-based so both east and west coasts are viable launch points to Europe. But no BCN routing is a show-stopper since that's where I live half the year. I get that MAD would be "helpful" given IB's presence, but it's not like FCO or CDG have OW presence, so that's not a great excuse by Ben.
@DCAWABN--I am a little surprised that you think about flying to Europe via the West Coast if your starting point is the Midwest. Personally, if I have to make a connection, I hate to start the trip by flying in the opposite direction of my intended destination. That makes me wonder what you consider "Midwest" to be. As a a Pacific Northwest native, I often joke about the Midwest as being the Middle East, as a matter of perspective. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from the East Coast after I referred to the Pacific Northwest. His reaction was that I had made that term up and it didn't really exist (this was decades ago). I explained that "Pacific" had become a necessary modifier because historically, so many other areas had thought of themselves as the Northwest. Examples are Ohio (Northwest Territories, Case Western Reserve University), Illinois (Northwestern University), Minnesota (Northwest Airlines), etc., etc.
Given how many people on these forums have opined that SEA is a lousy place for a hub to Europe, I am genuinely curious about your experience connecting here if you really do live in the traditional definition of the Midwest.
"Also, there’s a significance to the AS196 flight number, as the 196 is intended to pay homage to Greece’s capital as the birthplace of the modern Olympic Games, in 1896."
"There’s also a significance to the flight number, as AS136 is a nod to the city’s 136 museums."
The return flights AS197 and AS137 represent the flights Alaska is operating in the other direction, but with +1 to avoid confusion.
The big question is SEA to SYD and AUK. YVR has flights to both, and other Australia and New Zealand destinations on Air Canada, Air New Zealand and Qantas. It makes sense for DL and/or AS to do the same. It's a logical choice.
*sigh* ...you sure showed him, yoloswag420. Eh,you never know, Mike may just be concerned about Alakanuk Airport in Alaska (AUK)... even though he clearly meant Auckland, NZ... (now, who's playing dumb...)
More idiocracy from 1990, given that there isn't a flight from YVR to AUK, I'm not sure why you think your silly retort was worth typing out.
As an LAX-based flyer, glad to see a ATH route from the West Coast.
This way, I don't have to deal with the crazy connections at CDG, LHR, or FRA.
All reasonably priced seats to/from Cdg in j gone
As I think about the new ATH and CDG nonstops, I think most of us have looked at them as transporting US passengers to and from those destinations. As I think more about the seasonality of those flights, though, it occurs to me that they are roughly aligned with the Alaska cruise ship season. Could this be partially about bringing Europeans to Seattle for Alaska cruises? I realize that many foreigners don't want to travel to the USA under the current administration, but Alaska cruises used to be very popular with European travelers. I wonder if that somehow factored into AS's thinking.
I'm waiting for a review of the business class on Alaska's "new" flights from SEA to ICN, etc. It's too early to get excited about these routes when we don't know how good or bad business class on Alaska international flights are.
The Wall Street Journal and YouTuber Trek Trendy reviewed the LHR-SEA product this week and mostly had positive things to say
for what it's worth, I'd wait for the joint AS-HA joint flight attendant contract before looking at a flight review.
Don't get me wrong. I've loved every pre-merger longhaul HA flight I've even been on. though, upon reflection, it may have been the 3 Mai Tais.
the HA flight attendants seem to be doing the normal "we hate change" thing of most unions when being forced to accept changes in their contract. This seems to be more of a union posturing issue vs anything reflective of the amazing HA flight attendants and their unrivaled dedication to their customers. They'll just need to make changes with their new changes, just like the AS Flight Attendants will.
I'm happy to see these alternative one-stop routes from Hawaii.
Honey, I am SCREAMING over Alaska launching Seattle–Athens and Seattle–Paris!
Do I live anywhere near Seattle? Absolutely not. Is Atlanta a vastly more logical place for me to connect to Europe? Obviously, darling. I could practically roll out of bed and into a Delta Sky Club.
But does that matter? NO.
If Anita Grits has to drive 3 hours to fly Nashville–Seattle–Athens just to experience Alaska’s new 787, then baby, pack the grits and call it a pilgrimage. I will cross half the damn country for a good lie-flat seat and a little Mediterranean drama.
Seattle may be Alaska’s gateway to Europe, but Anita is apparently now a woman of the Pacific Northwest. Somebody get me a flannel and a $19 latte.