Earlier, I wrote about how Air France was accused of serving passengers fake kosher meals on a long haul flight. The company has now responded, and has a different version of events than what was claimed. Let’s first discuss the initial claims, and then I’ll share what the company had to say.
Continue reading: Air France Denies Serving Fake Kosher Meals: What We Know
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
The question to ask isn't what the reaction would be if this was a nut allergy, but what the reaction would be if it was a Halal meal that was faked. I think we could all imagine the level of outrage in France, if not riots and violence, that would attend such a happenstance - particularly given the bloody fallout after Charlie Hebdo published a cartoon disrespectful to Islam.
"If someone has a nut allergy and is served something in spite of that, they could die. If someone has a dietary restriction or preference, it’s not going to kill them if they’re accidentally served it."
I think the issue is more about the deception rather than who was served what meal. I dont think its helpful to start ranking what sorts of deception are worse than others.
Ben, as an Orthodox Jew that has never eaten anything not kosher in life, to be fooled into eating something not kosher, it’s a lifetime damage that can’t be fixed with a $30 voucher, we pay millions to keep this law, you think a $30 voucher will compensate for anything???
I think ignorance is what plays here, it’s impossible to understand (I assume) this if you don’t live it and to see Air France completely ignore the story makes you blood boil!!!
I do not recognize religion. Religion is not like race or gender where you don’t get to choose what you are. Being religious is a choice. Millennia ago it was a fair and rational choice. Today we have modern science. If you choose to be religious, why should others respect that. You are actually holding the world back as almost all objections to abortion or gay rights are rooted in religion.
If this happened with Halal meals.... and the muslim passengers making a scandal, they would have landed the plane for act of terrorism. Just saying.
Where do you stand on, for instance, people being vegetarian? That’s a choice too but, by your logic, does not need to be respected.
Ben, your nut allergy example is on point. It doesn't matter what the food restriction is, it's a food restriction. This happened to my wife at a hotel. After noting an allergy on a food order, the cook ran out of a non-allergen substitute and so he prepared the order with the allergen product. Something tipped her off that the order contained the allergen and didn't eat it. While the hotel was apologetic, we couldn't trust them again.
I am an Orthodox Jew and my father is an Orthodox Rabbi. According to him, if you eat trefe (non-Kosher) food under these circumstances, it does not cause "Lifetime damage" because it was no fault of your own. It would be the same as if you had to eat trefe to survive - there is dispensation in the Talmud for such actions. Don't be so dramatic. On the other hand, the F/A should be re-trained.
As a Jew, I’m questioning if you are one of us. It clearly states €30, which is about 5.5 shekels more.
@ JJ -- I'm not here to rank types of deception. My point is simply to respond to a question that was raised, and to point out that in the case of soemone with an allergy, it goes beyond deception, as it's also life threatening. That adds an extra layer of concern, if you ask me.
Hey Lucky, thanks for covering this concerning story.
A few points of clarification.
1. While most adults would probably realize this wasn't a legit kosher meal, it was kids sitting separately that ate it. They did that only asking the FA if they were kosher meals, which she confirmed.
Additionally, some FAs do occasionally unseal meals, thinking they're doing a favor. This even happened to me in LH F, without the FA realizing it made the meal no longer edible for a religious Jew.
2. My take is not that this is the same as a nut allergy, but this is still fraudulent and deceptive behavior. Everyone understands that's not acceptable for an allergy, hence my question if other meals should be different? FA's ALL understand you can't fake a nut-free meal and they are trained for that. The same principles in training should also be applied to kosher and other special meals. Fraud is fraud.
3. There is of course a deeper level to this that gets into the spiritual and emotional harm for a practicing Jew to eat non-kosher, but I didn't delve into that as it's not the correct venue. But as you can imagine, this behavior is more outrageous to someone that is strict with kosher dietary laws.
4. The compensation isn't the concern here, it's the complete lack of response from Air France to the passenger or our media inquiries on what will be done to prevent this from happening again. Is the airline taking this seriously? Was the FA retrained? Will other FAs be trained not to do this?
You using a book with fairytales as guidance how to arrange your life (and probably finding creative ways to circumvent the spirit of the fairytales) sounds like a you problem and not an us or them problem tbh.
@Ben - I see where you are coming from but just saying this is a slippery slope. Where would serving a vegetarian a non-veg meal stand? How about serving some who is lactose intolerant a meal with diary? Not life threatening but could cause discomfort. Or a diabetic a non-diabetic meal? Again, not life threating but could impact their health.
My gut reaction, wanting to give the FAs the benefit of the doubt, is that this was a matter of things getting lost in translation. It looks like they were given vegetarian meals, which some Jews who keep kosher would be fine with. I would think that writing KSML on them was only meant to help the FAs set them aside. Now the FAs should have explained to the passengers that they were missing kosher meals on the flight but they could offer them a vegetarian meal if they wanted.
It's a meal @arps, not an objection to gay rights or abortion. For sure, no one is forced to "respect" others religious choices. But if Air France states that it will, indeed, offer these kind of meals, then it should fulfil its promise to the passenger.
Yitzchok,
Yes, I understand that it is a spiritual damage?
But my understanding is that one who accidentally eats non-kosher food or is forced to do so will not suffer the effects of timtum halev.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for this post. It saves me a lot of writing.
Personal opinion:
1)
It’s not completely unheard of that KSML is not loaded (or inedible as the seal is broken): thus, it’s wise to always carry some emergency food in the hand luggage.
2)
What the FA did is just stupid and unnecessary. She should’ve pro actively informed the passengers to find a solution (e.g. finding some sealed Tuc Crackers that are kosher or providing a kosher foodbox and compensation after the flight).
30€ is absurd.
I realize that Jews are regularly discriminated against by the woke DEI crowd like yourself but imagine this being a hate crime against the Halal. Damages for the deception should run in the hundreds of thousands. I can only imagine that the crew did not think that Jews were worthy of respect when they did this.
Even if there was no deception, the idea that not being fed on an 11-hour flight is only worth 30€ is absurd. Certainly the discomfort is worth thousands without getting into the deceptive and discriminatory nature of Air France's crime.
It’s a H8 crime against Jewish people, nothing else. The West has normalized and excused far too often antisemitism.
1. For sure. The passenger explained in this thread why they didn't have food for the flight:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=139447.msg2918366#msg2918366
2. Yup, that happens all the time and there's no story if that happens.
Also many ppl order kosher for allergy purposes knowing that kosher rules dont allow for shellfish or mixing meat and milk - so yeah there is a parallel to nut free meals.
Imagine not making a drama about it? Bring Kosher or Halal or whatever stuff you guys believe on man made books?
Life would be soooo much easier 🙂
Eating non kosher does lifetime damage? Over dramatization much? Over reaction much? Anger management therapy needed much?
Hate crimes require specific intent with animus against a protected group. (E.g., The flight attendant did this specifically to harm the passengers at issue because they are Jewish.). Nothing in this article at least would seem to support that conclusion here.
It doesn't fix this particular problem, but I think airlines would do themselves a favor by thinking about some universal design principles in their meal preparations. You can't design around every diet, but I suspect you can design more streamlined menus around most. JetBlue does a nice job of this with their Mint menus, but very few other companies seem to be following that model.
The proper response would have been to offer the vegetarian meals as options, being clear about disclosing that they were not properly Kosher. Not everyone is super strict in their diet, but some people are. Let them tell you what they are willing to do.
There are some other problems here. It would be great if the airline would give you notice when they can't meet a meal request so that you know to plan to bring something. Airports are also terrible places to either bring in food from outside sources or to buy food for special diets. Getting on a 10 hour flight with no edible food for your religious practices after being trapped in an airport two hours prior to that is just not humane.
My dad is East Indian/Hindu and vegetarian. This scenario happens to him sometimes ie vegetarian meal is not loaded or he is incorrectly served a non-veg meal. Most of the times that an error occurs he is made aware, or he recognizes the error himself before eating. A few times he has taken a bite or two before realizing it. There is provision in the Hindu religion to forgive eating meat in error. I am not religious and have an anaphylactic allergy to pineapples and quinoa. There is no provision made by airlines for such allergies so I walk with my own food iften, especially on long flights. Or I request safe items like bread snd butter. In this case I think the 30 is insufficient, not as much for the missed meals but for the deception, and cluelessness in AF not acknowledging and apologizing /remediating the situation effectively. The FA who wrote on the meals deprived the passengers of making an informed choice. That I find egregious.
How is a Kosher meal can be faked, even in appearance? These FAs need to have basic abilities tested.
I am very, very doubtful on the report.
What was written on the menu card for all passengers? Was it the same food as what got served?
Because to me, the rest of the tray seems indeed to be packaged the way KSML meals are packaged at Air France, so they information they received onboard might have been wrong.
Since when is KSML an official food designation intended for the general public ?
What "counts" is the information provided by the airline to the customer and the agreement reached with them. Obviously all of this is oral so it's a game of we said they said.
The only way to prevent this is to have a "decision tree" at the airline that documents the interaction with the PAX where the pax acknowledges having received the information and formally agrees to a final outcome. This type of checklist is common in the cockpit and with digital tools should not be too difficult to implement in the cabin and at the gate and even in the booking/check-in management webpages/app so the pax can do it on their own and select the option they want.
Obviously if they don't like any of the options or do not want to acknowledge their choice to be able to create a scandal later (like seems to be the case here), they are always free not to board.
What’s that even supposed to mean?
Practically every “passenger going karen” story I’ve seen over the last year has been “person outraged by clothing item / colour they perceive as pro-Palestinian”.
Although you mean well, you don't only eat kosher food, so you don't have the sensitivity of what it means when someone tell you it's kosher when it's not kosher.
It may not be the same as a nut allergy but it's much worse than saying they need more training.
@ Elly -- But wouldn't it be abundantly clear to anyone who keeps kosher that this isn't properly prepared kosher food? Simply writing "KSML" on something doesn't make it kosher. My point is that in terms of avoiding the risk of having something that's "prohibited," it should be much more straightforward than with a nut allergy, no?
I simply don't get it - the passenger didn't provide any evidence that AF lied. Yes it's written "KSML" and so what? This is an industry jargon it wasn't written "Kosher Meal".
And totally agree, religious meals and dietary PREFERENCES are what they are: PREFERENCES. It's not gonna kill you (unlike allergies) if you eat something else. So if you can't deal with other food, then bring your own and stop messing around. And same for Halal, Vegan, etc.
As I mentioned in the comment below, it would not be clear to a child. And the child, who was seated separately, asked the FA and was told that it was a kosher meal. AF has failed to address this.
Additionally, many FAs accidentally open the wrapping and plastic, thinking they are doing a favor to the passenger...
Oh it was vegetarian????? What delicious restrictions prevent Jews from eating vegetarian meals??? If it doesn’t contain non kosher meat/seafood, it is for all intents and purposes a “kosher meal”. I’d consider a vegetarian meal served in lieu of a meal with halal meat to still be a “halal” meal
If the “fake Muslim meal” didn’t contain any meat, it wouldn’t be a “fake Muslim meal” as it would be complying with Muslim dietary restrictions. It sounds like the passengers were served a vegetarian meal. A vegetarian meal is a perfectly fine substitute for a meal with halal/kosher meat when the latter is not available
No. The rest does not like KSML. From an outstation like MRU I would expect individually wrapped long shelf life food.
- Bottled water and seltzer do not pose any kashrus concerns, unless they are flavored.
- Wine: unless it’s kosher wine (served in a kosher glass) the answer is: no.
- crackers: yes, there are kosher crackers (e.g. TUC).
- Beer: German beer is because of purity regulations, generally kosher.
Air France serves Heineken, which is kosher. I think 8 beers are equal to a brisket…so that would’ve helped…
(Not for the children, though.)
Then don’t misrepresent a non-kosher meal as being kosher. Observant Jews would rather not eat than consume non-kosher food, just as a vegan would just have raw fruit and the salad, or a Jain wouldn’t eat an otherwise-vegan potato curry. Everyone understands that special meals occasionally don’t get loaded, but don’t try to BS passengers into believing their dinner is something it isn’t.
Well, this is a totally different side of the story. Sounds plausible.
They weren't regular meals, so had to be noted.
They were going to specific people, so had to be noted.
The notations aren't really meant for the public.
If they were told there weren't kosher meals, there is no gripe re: deception. Compensation is a little low.
Some very religious Muslims won’t eat ANY food other than fruit or raw veges that’s not certified halal, because there may be non-halal gelatine in a desert, for instance, or an alcohol-based product may have been used during preparation. That does seem like excessive precautions to me, but I’m not a religious Muslim.
It is obviously non-kosher. Even children should’ve noticed immediately.
Besides, according to AF the parents were informed at Check In that there is no Kosher Meal.
There’s “kosher”, as in, “I don’t eat pork or shellfish”, and there’s “Kosher” as in “I strictly adhere to my religious dietary laws and don’t eat anything that’s not officially certified and cooked or prepared by other Jews, with even stricter rules applying for Passover”.
Vegetarian is not kosher (e.g. eggs). Vegan is generally kosher but Kosher produce has to be cleaned to specific standards to avoid insects.
So even if the ingredients are kosher, the preparation probably is not kosher.
KSM L stands for Khalid Sheik Mohammed Loser. KSM is the 9/11 mastermind.
Either the Jews are troublemakers trying to make up lies or Air France's meal supplier is doing so. There is no evidence that the Air France flight attendant has a black marker. In fact, AF says it's not them. Right now, not enough data to conclude if the food supplied or the Jews are lying.
Air France failed to board my biz class GF meal out of CDG. The FA alerted me, asked me to see where I had requested the GF meal, awarded me 25,000 Flying Blue miles on the spot. The FA also offered to make me a special tray of anything I wanted from the other meals if I was OK letting him know what I thought that I could safely eat.
Airlines don’t accommodate customers with food allergies. If a customer keeps kosher, they should bring their own food, just like food allergy sufferers do.
If it is that important to have special food...bring something of your own as a back-up!!!!
the KSML marking was to identify the allocated vegetarian meals for those passengers... i do not see AF doing ANYTHING wrong here except perhaps some communication issues (maybe language) and $30 is more than fair. Further, since they were told at check-in they had plenty of time to figure out what to buy to keep themselves adequately nourished. I suspect an attempted "lets embarass them" shakedown by the customers.
Well, looks like those people have never flown and don't know how a KSML should be served. A KSML should always be served double wrapped. It should be completely closed and sealed when served.
If the meal arrives open (even partially) it shouldn't be eaten as it was open when it was heated together with non kosher meals. This is a strict rule.
I once had a flight on BA club Europe and the FA has opened my families meal and served it on the tray. They thought that presenting it nicely would help us (they meant good and I don't blame them). When I saw that, I quickly told the FA not to open my meal. We got a £50 voucher from BA.
I then complained to Hermolis (the provider of kosher food from the UK) and BA, that the hot meals are on the same tray as the cold ones (that's usually the case for short haul flights) and this has made the FA open the tray and then serve the meal open. If it would've been two separate trays one for hot and one for cold, they wouldn't open anything and we would've been able to eat it
This is always the case, you should ALWAYS take with some food and never rely on kosher meal (or any special meal). Mistakes can happen.
It sounds like a reasonable response from AF. The vegetarian meals would have been a suitable alternative but it appears that this alternative wasn't properly communicated to the passengers. Supply of inflight catering is a very complex process and depends on all parts of the process to work properly so the passenger gets their meal. Anyone travelling with religious and dietary requirements is at risk of missing out due to these complexities but in the majority of cases the airlines get it right.
It also needs to be double wrapped in the oven. If it's not double sealed and it was heated together with non kosher food it can't be eaten
It's a surprise not to see accusations of antisemitism flying around. That's the usual form with the polarization baiting that seems to be the norm these days !
Well informed. We teach our students, exactly what you said. Kosher meals are very strict. Even is paying for business class, meals are sealed and not touched. It looks poor from a service point of view, but from the customer side, we must follow the regulations.
You assume they were informed at check-in. They clearly have stated that they were not informed. neither of us was there to know if they were indeed informed.
@ Moe -- To be clear, they claim that they *were* informed at check-in. Per what Dan posted:
"But when she checked in for her flight, they told her that her kosher meals were not available."
Wrong. KSML is induetry wide jargon for Kosher meal. Writing this on a not Kosher meal is deception .
They are not a “suitable alternative”. There are many ways a vegetarian meal can be nonkosher.
Intentionally serving a non-kosher meal to people who requested kosher meals is a H8 crime. The flight attendant purposefully lied to and deceived the passengers. This has caused harm to Jews and their faith.
I think this is dispositive. If they stipulate that they knew in advance the kosher meals had not been boarded they should have (1) supplied themselves at the airport with acceptable food and (2) known not to accept the means onboard without at least confirming with someone that the previous information was incorrect
Air France seems to have a chronic problem at CDG boarding pre-ordered business meals. They forgot mine and instead of letting me know, tried to give me a fish stew. The only other choice was vegetarian. I declined the meal and they were actually nasty about it.
Not eating pork and shellfish is not kosher. Brought up as an orthodox Jew I now eat shellfish but not pork, ham etc. During the Spanish Inquisition jews were tortured and simultaneously made to eat pork. So many Jews don't eat pork for symbolic reasons. as far as I know no Jew was tortured and made to eat lobster.
Heaven help Flights Attendants in their very challenging jobs - especially when having to handle such fragile Jewish passengers and all their delicate hurt sensitivities in situations like this.
It's a lifetime commitment to keep kosher - and people were KILLED for keeping kosher - and to be offered 30 euros a head? It's like spitting in the face. It's exactly like a nut allergy, if not even more serious. It's going to be a massive lawsuit - granted, France doesn't have (thankfully) the same judicial culture as the US do - which AF will lose. I wouldn't expect anything less than a forced termination of the ENTIRE crew with possible criminal charges for antisemitism and total compensation running into hundreds of thousands.
Also, let's be happy it wasn't a fake halal meal - they'd certainly BLOW IT out of proportion.
They are glorified waiters, who can't even serve food properly. If they were "challenging jobs" the quality of people would be higher - and they'd dissolve the situation by explaining what happened.
Except they do. For example - not allowing people to eat peanuts when someone claims they have an allergy.
Evidently, those who aren't (Orthodox) Jews can not related to this concept. An example that might help bring it out , if you would offer me (or any other truly Orthodox Jew) $500,000 (or even $500 million) we won't willingly eat a single piece of lettuce or broccoli etc that can have a single insect on it, even if no one is watching and no one will ever know about it (besides G-D)... And like I mentioned in another post, yes unwillingly eating is also a grave sin....
Thank about that before all the ignorant comments of "what's the big deal", "no one died" etc etc
You certainly have no clue about the French judicial system or work laws. None of what you expect will happen. Whoever made a mistake did not profit from it (except maybe the MRU caterer to maintain their case loading KPIs), but that would not fall on French jurisdiction as it was in Mauritius and does not really count as a "profit"), if they indeed made a mistake (ksml is not a legal consumer facing food declaration), it was not intentional, it would not be a repeated offense and they would not have conspired with the entire crew to do it. The alleged offense falls into the I said she said type of case (KSML is not an official food claim and it is not expected that a consumer (let alone a kid) understands what it means so the KSML marking does not carry any proof of intent to fool). Also the French work culture recognize the concept of a honest mistake and the lack of training leading to unfortunate outcomes. So termination and penal charges, I don't think no. And as for compensations, french jurisprudence is not very generous in general for moral damages which are rarely awarded. In this case, even more likely to get nothing considering it is a minor isolated unintentional incident. I'm saying minor from the justice point of view: if it was that bad of a nuisance to them to justify moral damages the person would have reached out immediately to french police upon arrival on CDG. Instead the person carried on their journey went home and wrote in a forum about it. Now that some people instructed them they should seek damages are they thinking about it. Not worth much in a french court.
Anyway it seems the pax are looking for a DOT complaint or a US suit considering the ticket was to the US. Let's see if this gets them anywhere. Probably just hoping for a better settlement. Shook the tree got a peanut, shakes stronger hoping for a coconut. Hope they picked the right tree.
In the back, some retraining will happen and kosher meals may stop being offered to pre-order if they can't be reliably catered for on a specific segment. Which is apparently what this group of passengers would have preferred and such an issue will be much less likely in the future, which I think was the original intention of the disclosure.
I'm of the same thinking, that writing KSML was only meant to identify them as meals for those passengers. And I would go a step further and say it's possible that the FAs were not aware that the kosher meals weren't loaded or that veggie meals were substituted to even mention this to the passengers. However, the FAs should be familiar with kosher meals to question why they weren't packaged properly, and if they were trying to be deceptive, how would they explain the lack of packaging to the passengers? It's unfortunate if it was a miscommunication and unacceptable if the FAs were trying to be deceptive.
Except a nut allergy can kill you...much like with eating halal, kosher is a choice.
Sounds like DEI to me. AMERICA is getting rid of DEI and including separate meals is racist and separatist. One meal for everyone, if you want different bring your own. MAGA.
Still doesn’t make it a hate crime, kiddo. The fact that the deception harmed them because they were Jewish is not the same as establishing that they were intentionally harmed for being Jewish.
Anyone who has consumed or seen a kosher meal on a flight knows full well this would never pass up as kosher--flight attendants would know better, as would passengers. I'm inclined to believe Air France's version of the story here as it makes the most sense as opposed to someone thinks some flight attendant thought a sharpie taken to a lid would be enough to convince someone--they are not that dumb.
Stories like this will push airlines to simply not do special meals. From an airline POV, it is simple... We don't do special meals. If you have a need, bring your food onboard. It will save a good buck for the airline.
And the reality is, this is just a tiny fraction of people that request special meals. If they went away and these people stopped flying the airline, I don't think anyone would notice.
I don't think you know what kosher is.
No one is eating "lettuce or broccoli etc that can have a single insect on it". No one.
Now when it was growing, guess what. There were LOTS of insects on it. But that has nothing to do with being kosher.