Let me start by emphasizing that I have no inside knowledge here, but instead, I thought it would be interesting to discuss a claim made by one of OMAAT’s most prolific commenters.
In this post:
Is Delta close to placing a Boeing 787-10 order?
If you read the OMAAT comments section of any post about Delta, you’ve surely seen commentary from Tim Dunn. In one of his comments yesterday — no, not the one where he claimed United is “in a tailspin” and Delta “keeps climbing” — he wrote about how his “sources” claim that Delta is nearing a Boeing 787-10 order:
My sources say DL is close to pulling the trigger on a 787 order and it would most likely be for the -10.
It was never realistic that DL would have a 100% Airbus widebody fleet.
Boeing and GE put a compelling offer on DL’s plate when DL was evaluating the 787 vs. A350-1000. DL went with the -1000 for the range and performance. With 20 -1000s confirmed and up to 20 more Airbus widebodies on option, I suspect that DL will have placed its last Airbus widebody order and option conversion within a couple years.
The 787-10, as you know, is very economical, is well-suited for TATL and S. America flights, and supports DL’s upgauging of its international network just as DL did on its domestic network.
I would strongly believe that delivery of the 787s will begin as the 763ERs are removed from international service – eliminating a widebody international category – and the order and options will be for 40-50 aircraft by the early 2030s.
For context, the 787-10 is the largest variant of the Dreamliner. While it has the least range of any Dreamliner variant, the per-seat economics are great, given how it’s “stretched.” When it comes to Delta’s wide body fleet renewal, this has been focused on two aircraft types:
- Delta’s flagship aircraft is the Airbus A350, with 38 A350-900s currently in the fleet (and six more more on order), plus 20 A350-1000s on order; these planes are used primarily for transpacific and other ultra long haul flying
- Delta’s secondary long haul aircraft is the Airbus A330-900neo, with 36 in the fleet (and three more on order); these planes are used primarily for transatlantic flying
Beyond that, there are the more outdated aircraft that Delta will have to replace over time:
- Delta operates 42 A330ceos, with 11 A330-200s and 31 A330-300s; these planes are an average of 16-20 years old, which is downright young by Delta standards, and they’re likely here to stay for some time
- Delta operates 60 Boeing 767s, with 39 767-300ERs and 21 767-400ERs; these planes are an average of 25-30 years old, and the 767-300ERs are expected to be withdrawn from international operations by the end of the decade
My take on Delta placing a Boeing wide body aircraft order
Sooner or later, Delta will need to place another wide body aircraft order. Delta has over 100 “last generation” wide body jets, and eventually we’ll need to see replacements for the 767-300ERs, A330-200s, 767-400ERs, and A330-300s (probably in that order — it seems the A330-300s are here to stay, as Delta is planning new cabins for these jets).
With that in mind, a few thoughts:
- Unlike American and United, Delta hasn’t ordered the A321XLR (admittedly not a wide body, but it is a long haul aircraft); it seems executives at the carrier aren’t crazy about the plane, but as Delta increasingly upgauges long haul aircraft, there are some markets where the economics may become more challenging
- The 787-10 has fantastic economics; it’s a bit bigger than the A330-900neo, while still being able to operate Delta’s entire Europe and South America network
- Focusing on three different kinds of long haul aircraft is more of a diversified strategy than what you’ll find at American and United, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, given that the scale of the fleets we’re talking about
- Eventually, Delta’s smallest long haul aircraft may be the A330-900neo, with 281 seats, and that’s around 30% more seats than you’ll find on the 767-300ER, with 211-216 seats
So yeah, I don’t have any “sources” like Tim claims to have, but purely in terms of logic, the 787-10 seems like a good fit for Delta, given the number of planes that Delta will eventually need to replace. With the tariff situation, maybe a Boeing order is also a good way to diversify.
It’s quite a different strategy than you’ll find at United, where the airline has plans for an eventual fleet of 200+ Dreamliners. For that matter, there are also rumors of American eventually placing a 787-10 order, to eventually replace older 777s. So it remains to be seen whether American or Delta place an order first.
Bottom line
We’ll see what happens, but it seems that Delta does eventually need to place another wide body aircraft order, as 767s and A330ceos will eventually be retired. While Delta has been a loyal Airbus wide body customer, it’s logical enough that the airline may eventually want to diversify from the A330neo and A350.
We’ll see if anything comes of this, but the 787-10 seems like a good fit for Delta, given its excellent per-seat economics, making it a great jet for Europe and South America flying.
What do you make of the prospect of Delta ordering the Dreamliner?
Rather strange to see Tim praising the 787 but I suppose hell can freeze over
I think AA will order the 787-10 when Boeing does an IGW version making it more capable.
(More payload, more range) It will be a focus project as soon as the 777X gets certified in a few months.
If we may step away from Tim/Julie for a moment and re-focus...I think the 787-10 makes quite a bit of sense for DL fleet planning. I think it would be a wise move politically as well to have a new Boeing order. From what I have gathered, and I know someone will correct me, the 787 is a generally more successful and reliable product than the MAX family.
And yes, Seattle more than needs a need sheet aircraft...sometime before I die from the old age I have earned. LOL
thank you for the refocus.
and, yes, the 787 is stable and output is planning to increase. The 787 was a well-designed aircraft; the problems were with manufacturing and those have apparently been resolved.
The MAX comes down to design issues that do not conform with current requirements for modern airliners.
It is highly doubtful that either Airbus or Boeing will release a new widebody before DL's entire 767 and most if not all...
thank you for the refocus.
and, yes, the 787 is stable and output is planning to increase. The 787 was a well-designed aircraft; the problems were with manufacturing and those have apparently been resolved.
The MAX comes down to design issues that do not conform with current requirements for modern airliners.
It is highly doubtful that either Airbus or Boeing will release a new widebody before DL's entire 767 and most if not all of its A330CEO fleet is retired.
If anything, Boeing needs to focus on a 737 replacement which might overlap with the small widebody category.
Since we're on the topic of Delta.
Their incoming A350-100 LOPA has just been recently finalised.
In my previous comments, I noted it was highly unlikely for Delta to extend business class beyond doors L2/R2 (I only expected 44/46 seats)
They're having a mini Delta One cabin of 3 rows now.
Delta One will be 56 seats.
Delta premium 56 seats
Delta comfort 45 seats
Delta main 156 seats
...
Since we're on the topic of Delta.
Their incoming A350-100 LOPA has just been recently finalised.
In my previous comments, I noted it was highly unlikely for Delta to extend business class beyond doors L2/R2 (I only expected 44/46 seats)
They're having a mini Delta One cabin of 3 rows now.
Delta One will be 56 seats.
Delta premium 56 seats
Delta comfort 45 seats
Delta main 156 seats
Total seat count will be 313 seats.
All A350-900 will be retrofitted to the 275 seat version. So before 2030, all A350-900 will have less seat compared to the A330-900.
Retrofitted A330CEO might come in with a higher premium setup. Discussion is still very much preliminary.
any idea if there will be a new Delta One product? and if there's going to be an increase in legroom for Main/Comfort/PS?
...which, as I have been saying, will make the A350-1000 into an incredibly high performing aircraft.
...313 seats is well below average for the A350-1000; I think QF's Sunrise 35Ks are the only ones w/ less seats and they are designed to do 20 hour flights.
DL's should easily be able to do 18 hour flights given that DL is reportedly waiting for the 322 tonne version which QF will also have.
...which, as I have been saying, will make the A350-1000 into an incredibly high performing aircraft.
313 seats is well below average for the A350-1000; I think QF's Sunrise 35Ks are the only ones w/ less seats and they are designed to do 20 hour flights.
DL's should easily be able to do 18 hour flights given that DL is reportedly waiting for the 322 tonne version which QF will also have.
and, as much as some people think I hate JonxNYC, I don't at all mind his tweets; its publishing internal documents that I do not like to see.
Gary on another site published a tweet from Jon that said that DL is not only pushing the A350-1000s that are due in 2026 to 2027 but also increasing, IIRC, the number of 35Ks in 2027 or 28 -I think it was 2027 with 12 aircraft with the whole order of 20 due in about a 2 year period. DL's latest published data is for 4 35Ks per year which seems low. 12 is above the amount of widebody capacity DL has ever taken in one year.
If Jon is correct, then DL only has a few more years of confirmed widebody orders so a new order is certain. I do expect they will convert some if not all of the Airbus widebody options - which are flexible between the 330NEO and 350 families.
If they are planning to take 12 35Ks, they will have only the remaining 4 359s in that order - which suggests some of the options might be for additional 359s or 339s in 2026 before the 35Ks arrive.
Tim, doesn't JAL have just 239 seats on it's a350-1000's? Even if you take out the 6 first class seats on JAL, the difference between 239 and 313 is frankly sad. I really wish DL would focus on improving the hard product for all its cabin classes and offer more seat pitch in Main/Comfort/PS. Even if there are less seats, a better product means they'll fill more of those seats, even during low travel seasons.
yes, Eric, JL has a pretty low density configuration for their 35Ks just as they do on their 777Ws. In fact, their first class cabin takes up almost half of the space between doors 1 and 2 or where most airlines put about 20 business class suites; the business class cabin goes almost back to the 3rd doors with just a few rows of premium economy and 155 standard economy seats all behind the 3rd...
yes, Eric, JL has a pretty low density configuration for their 35Ks just as they do on their 777Ws. In fact, their first class cabin takes up almost half of the space between doors 1 and 2 or where most airlines put about 20 business class suites; the business class cabin goes almost back to the 3rd doors with just a few rows of premium economy and 155 standard economy seats all behind the 3rd doors.
DL's 275 seat 359s have only a few rows of standard economy in front of the 3rd set of doors but they will have a much larger premium economy cabin and also 5 rows of extra legroom economy - so their 35K might have standard economy all between doors 3 and 4.
AA's new 78Ps have just 2 rows of standard economy forward of the 3rd doors on the 789.
...the point being that more and more airlines are moving toward having just 1/3 of the floorspace for standard economy.
DL's business class cabin size will be 50 plus seats while DL has larger premium economy cabins as well as more extra legroom economy seats than AA and UA on many aircraft types and that trend seems to be continuing. the 35K is big enough to get over 300 total seats and still have...
...the point being that more and more airlines are moving toward having just 1/3 of the floorspace for standard economy.
DL's business class cabin size will be 50 plus seats while DL has larger premium economy cabins as well as more extra legroom economy seats than AA and UA on many aircraft types and that trend seems to be continuing. the 35K is big enough to get over 300 total seats and still have half of the seats as business, premium economy and extra legroom economy - which is what DL said several years ago the 35K would have
The shift to more premium seating does give the 35K incredible range - and that is where I believe DL will gain an advantage.
the 787-10 would be far less focused on range and would likely only be needed for TATL and S. America flights.
and for those that talk about using narrowbodies, to come up w/ these same percentages of seats on an A321 sized airframe, you are below 150 seats - and DL just doesn't believe the economics work for that few passengers on flights over 8 hours where 3 pilots are required. DL's transcon 321s will have less than 150 seats but are not going to be equipped to fly over water let alone for 9 hours.
Julie/Tim (like Pat from SNL),
They could just do the 321 - no need for DL to ruin its stellar product with a Boeing aircraft. DL is a premium airline requiring premium aircraft manufacturer.
C’mon Ben, you know better than to give Tim/“Julie”/alts screen time…
Personally, I do think Delta will eventually order the A321LR/XLR. They will need a replacement for their current international 757 routes served with flat beds. Perhaps that can be done with their A321neo subleet though with flat beds, I haven't done the math personally on if those planes can serve all current 757 routes. But I would think that with such a large jump in capacity with their lowest capacity long-haul aircraft going from the...
Personally, I do think Delta will eventually order the A321LR/XLR. They will need a replacement for their current international 757 routes served with flat beds. Perhaps that can be done with their A321neo subleet though with flat beds, I haven't done the math personally on if those planes can serve all current 757 routes. But I would think that with such a large jump in capacity with their lowest capacity long-haul aircraft going from the 767-300 to the A330-900, an A321LR/XLR fleet would help the airline fill the gaps.
Mainly to open new secondary routes that are not economically viable with a widebody or to free up a widebody were you need the extra capacity in certain routes.
UA has done a great job with the thin 757 TATL routes. Did EWR-OPO last year and the nonstop was great. Just can’t support a widebody.
Look at what Iberia has done with the A321 XLR it replaced the A330 in both MAD-IAD and MAD-BOS routes. It added MAD to Fortaleza and Recife in Brazil not viable with an A330 and added a second flight SJU-MAD with the XLR and A332.
So they free up the A330's from BOS and IAD to be used in other routes and added the A321 XLR with the A330-200 to SJU because probably they could not fill two A330's in the fall.
The irony is that for all the commenters insulting Tim Dunn and his analysis.
Ben still clearly found it interesting and plausible enough to even discuss in the first place.
I'm flattered you enjoy using my username, but this is not commentary from the normal "Julie"
But thanks for the compliment in trying to use it as your own.
Given Tim's known usage of fake names, it's likely just tim trying to compliment himself.
all you have to do to stop the frauds is register your name. The fact that you don't is what is more telling.
and "her" point remains that Ben published the article because any widebody order is worth discussing.
and, I am happy for you or anyone else to just let the future dictate whether I was accurate or not.
Tim Dunn lecturing others on fake names... what a joke and huge hypocrisy.
Tim, I'm flattered you use "julie" to try to compliment yourself. It only shows you for the loser you are. Not to mention how you monitor this comment section constantly to reply to people.
And to be blunt, we both know this topic was rampant on a.net long before you posted a comment yesterday. Let's not pretend you have inside...
Tim Dunn lecturing others on fake names... what a joke and huge hypocrisy.
Tim, I'm flattered you use "julie" to try to compliment yourself. It only shows you for the loser you are. Not to mention how you monitor this comment section constantly to reply to people.
And to be blunt, we both know this topic was rampant on a.net long before you posted a comment yesterday. Let's not pretend you have inside sources. You just read other commenters on airliners.net or "jetlanta" just texted you about it from a happy hour he had with Glen.
either way, you're no better than the JonNYC you despite with far fewer sources, if you even turn out to be right.
Honestly, I'm doing this all for attention because my parents never gave me any.
Does anyone sane really think someone is that bothered to waste their time impersonating me, a random loser online?
I use a system of accounts so that I can cycle in and out different usernames and then make fake registered accounts to like my own comments and signal boost them.
Why is it "logical enough that the airline may eventually want to diversify from the A330neo and A350" ? The same logic that Southwest may want to diversify with Airbus or Embraer?
A US airline simply cannot get by with an all Airbus widebody fleet no matter how good the A330NEO and A350 are and are more capable and efficient than the 787/777 combo that AA and UA have. and UA is very likely to eventually take delivery of the 777X or the A350.
DL is a large enough airline and is heading toward a widebody fleet of 200 aircraft so that multiple types and both...
A US airline simply cannot get by with an all Airbus widebody fleet no matter how good the A330NEO and A350 are and are more capable and efficient than the 787/777 combo that AA and UA have. and UA is very likely to eventually take delivery of the 777X or the A350.
DL is a large enough airline and is heading toward a widebody fleet of 200 aircraft so that multiple types and both manufacturers are justifiable.
and DL can justify two widebody manufacturers because they get the MRO rights for the engines which significantly reduces ownership costs; not only do they save money by doing their own engine overhauls in-house but they repair engines for other airlines to increase DL's efficiency for those same engines.
Engine overhauls is the highest margin part of the maintenance operation - and higher than passenger and cargo operations.
Some of you might have missed but DL won the overhaul business for the Pratt and Whitney engines on UPS' 757.
and WN's problem is that one fleet type can't serve every mission WN needs to operate; there is a good possibility they will order another type or perhaps two. They need a smaller aircraft than the 737-MAX 7 (even if Boeing ever gets around to delivering it) and could go into widebodies if it is serious about international operations.
as for the comments below, someone will be right and someone will be right as to whether this is "a thing"
I haven’t always agreed your posts Tim, but I can’t disagree with this analysis. Chill out with the hate on this post people.
Given the lead times from OEMs of like 7-8 years, if Delta orders a 787 variant, don’t expect to see it until 2034 at the earliest. Unless they’re buying from someone else, but who is selling newer dreamliners?
Airbus and Boeing produce enough aircraft that they have delivery positions available for major orders esp. since we are likely talking about a 3 timeline at the earliest for DL to start taking 787s.
and Airbus will do the same thing if UA decides to take its A350 order.
I just don’t see the big leasing companies giving away their slots. Nor do I have enough faith that either Airbus or Boeing can get back to pre-Covid production, especially if there ends up being a travel downturn in the next two years. Don’t think this is a Delta/United type issue - they’re stuck with poor OEM production.
Oh dear Ben, why would even write something based on Tim's post? That twat can't even start a sentence with a capital letter!
If DL were to order the 787 i'd put my copper pennies on the smaller 787-9 or even the 787-8. Why? DL probably just like Lufthansa will probably get these jets for 'free'. Given the huge number of the 767s DL flies why order the much bigger 787-10 instead of the smaller...
Oh dear Ben, why would even write something based on Tim's post? That twat can't even start a sentence with a capital letter!
If DL were to order the 787 i'd put my copper pennies on the smaller 787-9 or even the 787-8. Why? DL probably just like Lufthansa will probably get these jets for 'free'. Given the huge number of the 767s DL flies why order the much bigger 787-10 instead of the smaller 787-9 with even better range?
Seriously what is Tim drinking?! My Chardonnay tastes perfectly fine and i can still think.
What's with all the ad hominem attacks?
You're no better than him, if you lash out like that.
Clearly Ben thought this was worthy of making an article about.
@Julie,
I don't understand it either, Julie. It's so bizarre how this guy rents space freely in some minds. It's as if they can't exist without some sort of snipe at him daily.
again, "Julie", not the normal Julie poster. But thanks for the compliment in using my name. Ironically, at the same timeline when Tim was busy posting on this article.
No. Delta will never order the dreamliner. It has no need when the A330 and A350 work so very well for it.
What is wrong with having an all Airbus wide body fleet I miss the US 330’s - it’s just a better product the 350, 330 etc are just better
The main issue hindering the 787-10 its the MTOW despite being heavier than the -9 they have identical MTOW so that means you can't fill those fuel tanks to the max with 300+ pax so you don't go over the 560K MTOW.
I’m not saying it isn’t possible because if the price is right, it certainly is. But there’s more to Delta ordering the A350 than many people realize as Airbus and Rolls made them an exclusive engine partner and invested in heavy machinery to do so. I don’t imagine that was done for Delta to maintain an equally split Airbus/Boeing lang haul fleet..
https://deltatechops.com/services/engine-maintenance/trent-xwb-engine/
Since we are in fantasy land, I wonder why Delta does not order the A330-800Ns to replace those Boeing 767s. I am sure Airbus can offer them a big discount if they want to go that direction. It will make sense since they have already gotten a large order of A330-900Ns. Those 338s can make good replacements for their A330-200s/Boeing 767s.
"shrink" versions of aircraft models always have worse per passenger economics than longer versions which is why the 330-800 has not sold to virtually anyone and why the 787-8 is just a smaller and less capable version of the 787-9 with much higher operating costs. It is why the 767-400 and A330-300 are so much better economically than the 763 and 332 even though the 764 gave up alot operationally and the 333 doesn't have...
"shrink" versions of aircraft models always have worse per passenger economics than longer versions which is why the 330-800 has not sold to virtually anyone and why the 787-8 is just a smaller and less capable version of the 787-9 with much higher operating costs. It is why the 767-400 and A330-300 are so much better economically than the 763 and 332 even though the 764 gave up alot operationally and the 333 doesn't have the range the 332 does.
As to comments below, DL appears to have no interest in using any existing narrowbody on flights over 8 hours and they have repeatedly said the economics do not work at US labor costs to carry 170 passengers or fewer with 3 pilots. Narrowbodies have virtually no cargo capability.
There is no mid-size replacement for the 767 which is part of why DL and UA are not getting rid of those types any sooner than they have to; DL recognizes that there are far better economics available on newer and larger aircraft and is retiring 767s while UA is not - so far - but will have to.
and, for the record, I do think that UA will have to activate its order for the A350 or buy the 777X. The A350-1000 is simply too capable of an aircraft for UA to allow DL to use w/o having an alternative.
The 777-9 will be larger than UA probably needs but won't have the range of the 35K but the 777-8 could do the trick but UA will have to wait just like everyone else for it. the 777X has the advantage of not adding another type even if it might beat the 35K in per passenger economics.
as for cabin width, that depends on the cabin you are in. The 767 was not designed for the current generation of business class seats but it offers a wider economy seat - where most people fly - than the 10 abreast 777 or the 9 abreast 787 that AA and UA use. The 777X should provide a wider seat.
DL will have to consider seat size but the 787 has become so common that there are likely few people esp. in economy that make their purchase decision based on seat size.
Tim Dunn’s sources = the people sitting in the desks across from him at Delta. Somehow this will be spun with respect to how amazing Delta’s decision is how having such a schizophrenic hard product due to having an unharmonized fleet is amazing while UA’s Polaris product sucks.
Real news isn’t that Tim Dunn thinks he’s right, it would be that Tim Dunn thinks something Delta has done is bad.
Close - just remember he was fired by them though
do you two think that:
1. You can focus on the topic at hand? You do more to elevate my position by talking ABOUT me, something others with a whole lot more emotional intelligence than you note.
2. Get your stories straight if you want to denigrate me. One says I get information from coworkers at Delta and the other says I was fired. The latter is particularly rich since it flies in the face...
do you two think that:
1. You can focus on the topic at hand? You do more to elevate my position by talking ABOUT me, something others with a whole lot more emotional intelligence than you note.
2. Get your stories straight if you want to denigrate me. One says I get information from coworkers at Delta and the other says I was fired. The latter is particularly rich since it flies in the face of the fact that I am labeled as DL's greatest online supporter.
3. and recognize and admit reality - which is that DL and UA have comparably complex fleets. United just happens not to fly Airbus widebodies but has them on order. Polaris is a better product than Delta One on the DL 767 but there are way too many people that can't admit Polaris was not close to best in class the day DL put the Delta One Suites into service. And Polaris crams more seats into the same space as other non-suite business class products including AA and DL's non-suite products on the 787, 777 and 330CEO.
I will take the flip side. Delta does a lot of flying internationally to partner hubs where people connect. As the A321XLR gets deployed competitors to Europe may be offering nonstop to many secondary markets and the connection model may suffer. If anything they need a wide body that matches the 767 capacity. But what do I know?
I hope not; the 787 is nowhere as comfortable as the A350, it's narrow and exhudes cheapness. n
Not a premium choice.
Many people have issues with the 787 electric shades because of the crew blocking it with their master control.
If Delta is going to make a Boeing Widebody order before NMA is launched it would be the 787-8 not 787-10. They already have A359 which cost a bit less and can do everything the 787-10 does and has much better payload-range. They already got the airplane and pilots and sims and maintenance setup for it. The bit of extra casm (due to an extra row) over a select few routes vs A359 does not...
If Delta is going to make a Boeing Widebody order before NMA is launched it would be the 787-8 not 787-10. They already have A359 which cost a bit less and can do everything the 787-10 does and has much better payload-range. They already got the airplane and pilots and sims and maintenance setup for it. The bit of extra casm (due to an extra row) over a select few routes vs A359 does not worth it to have a new type.
The 787-8 got a new order with AA so new orders can be made.
Hope this doesn’t happen. Only recently I realized how miserable 787 (and 777) economy class seats are compared to 350. Aisle felt much narrower in 787 but that could be because people’s shoulder extruding to the aisle. I’m trying to avoid 787 these days unless bulkhead is affordable (AC) or legroom is nice (KE) or I can grab one of those 2-seat setups at the very back of the plane. Online or offline, I hear...
Hope this doesn’t happen. Only recently I realized how miserable 787 (and 777) economy class seats are compared to 350. Aisle felt much narrower in 787 but that could be because people’s shoulder extruding to the aisle. I’m trying to avoid 787 these days unless bulkhead is affordable (AC) or legroom is nice (KE) or I can grab one of those 2-seat setups at the very back of the plane. Online or offline, I hear many people praising DL for its spacious seats. DL being a premium airline, hope it keeps its edge on economy class by offering a guaranteed wide seat.
Yeah the 787 narrower cabin mean the economy seats are usually 17.1" of width vs the A350 18".
There are a lot of airlines that put narrowish seats (often unified width-wise with 787) into 350. Very few airlines, like CX or ET have true 18" seatwidth in their 350s.
There might be a few airlines doing that but not a lot. At least those 350s will have a wider aisle meaning less bumping to shoulder, less shouting by FA when passing by with a cart, overall much better experience / spacious feeling.
I envision JonNYC is employed in some capacity that he is sitting in on high level airline meetings, reading for y9ur eyes only memos, and having contact with high level employees. He is like a corporate spy operating to delivery the audience rumors and leaks.
I don't know what Tim Dunn does with his time. I think knowing more about the man or how he gets his Delta data would help his cause.
Perhaps a...
I envision JonNYC is employed in some capacity that he is sitting in on high level airline meetings, reading for y9ur eyes only memos, and having contact with high level employees. He is like a corporate spy operating to delivery the audience rumors and leaks.
I don't know what Tim Dunn does with his time. I think knowing more about the man or how he gets his Delta data would help his cause.
Perhaps a regular series where you highlight one of your readers would be interesting.
it's rather simple and like Ben.
I have followed the airline industry for over 50 years - since my teens - and have timetables and annual reports - airlines actually used to publish both.
when you're passionate about something, you pay attention and talk to other people who are passionate.
And Jon's greatest source of data is information leaked from employees. even AA is getting tired of having their memos spread around the internet and...
it's rather simple and like Ben.
I have followed the airline industry for over 50 years - since my teens - and have timetables and annual reports - airlines actually used to publish both.
when you're passionate about something, you pay attention and talk to other people who are passionate.
And Jon's greatest source of data is information leaked from employees. even AA is getting tired of having their memos spread around the internet and is cracking down on employees that forward them.
JonNYC has info for all airlines though, so he has high level sources at each.
Let’s not give your site’s resident gasbag any more airtime Lucky. Someone like JonNYC actually has sources and gets scoops and delivers. TD, not so much.
a tad jealous on a Sunday morning?
and yet it was I, not Jon, or anyone else that broke the huge market share shift news in NYC from UA to DL. Jon can get all of the stolen AA memos until his heart is content - and that has fallen dramatically. Others understand the heart beat of the industry far better.
and UA will convert more of its 787 orders to -10s with subsequent orders...
a tad jealous on a Sunday morning?
and yet it was I, not Jon, or anyone else that broke the huge market share shift news in NYC from UA to DL. Jon can get all of the stolen AA memos until his heart is content - and that has fallen dramatically. Others understand the heart beat of the industry far better.
and UA will convert more of its 787 orders to -10s with subsequent orders for AA, DL and UA all being higher gross weight and more capable versions.
I don't think AA or DL will use the 787-10 over the Pacific but a little more range will make UA happy.
Why the F could I be jealous? UA is the perfect airline for my needs. Will hit 2MM in a few months. PlusPoints far superior to the horrible DL upgrade scheme. I could give a flying F about DL gaining a few very temporary NYC market share points.
Face it - you are a total wanker who has some bizarre need to rush to the defense of DL EVERY single time. Injecting DL in...
Why the F could I be jealous? UA is the perfect airline for my needs. Will hit 2MM in a few months. PlusPoints far superior to the horrible DL upgrade scheme. I could give a flying F about DL gaining a few very temporary NYC market share points.
Face it - you are a total wanker who has some bizarre need to rush to the defense of DL EVERY single time. Injecting DL in posts totally unrelated to it. You lack any objectivity whatsoever.
No wonder other sites have banned you. And DL fired you - that’s the most amazing part of all. Talk about weird Stockholm Syndrome there.
And - the PANYNJ data is a monthly updated dashboard of public NYC airline data. You didn’t “break any news”. Holy S you are beyond delusional thinking you have any importance.
and yet I WAS the one that made it clear as soon it did became public - because I knew what the data was pointing to long before it became public.
You are free to have your own preferences for companies you support... but that is not the point.
The point is about data and facts in the industry and I get those right.
Instead of making this about me or trying to throw...
and yet I WAS the one that made it clear as soon it did became public - because I knew what the data was pointing to long before it became public.
You are free to have your own preferences for companies you support... but that is not the point.
The point is about data and facts in the industry and I get those right.
Instead of making this about me or trying to throw someone into the topic that didn't mention this, how about you just sit tight and see if what posted becomes true - a DL 787 order "sooner or later" with my belief that it will be announced within the next year.
But remember that it took multiple years for DL to decide on the A350-1000 and I said over and over that an order "was close"
I don't control what any boardroom does but I pick up the scuttlebutt - but not stolen memos from multiple airlines
Congrats TD!!! Only You and you alone could do deep trend analysis and predict UA was going to lose some NYC market share due to their most important hub being down a runway all May and having flights cut.
And only you and you alone could breathtakingly refresh the PANYNJ site waiting for the magical hour in June that the May data was posted. And only you could “break the news” across this and every single travel website.
Beyond delusional.
there is nothing delusional about noting a 7 point market share shift in the largest market.
The only one that is delusional is anyone that wants to pretend it isn't happening and the implications of it.
there are people that breathlessly track share shifts in LAX even though that is a far smaller operation for all carriers than DL and UA in NYC.
And it isn't late-breaking news that UA has lost share. Some...
there is nothing delusional about noting a 7 point market share shift in the largest market.
The only one that is delusional is anyone that wants to pretend it isn't happening and the implications of it.
there are people that breathlessly track share shifts in LAX even though that is a far smaller operation for all carriers than DL and UA in NYC.
And it isn't late-breaking news that UA has lost share. Some of us have been watching NYC share and ATC delays for years and knew that the day would come when the FAA had no choice but to impose restrictions on EWR flights in order to get on-time and reliability back to even comparable levels.
UA pushed its EWR schedule beyond EWR's ability to ever handle as much traffic as UA pushed through it which was the cause of UA's 2023 EWR meltdown that spread across its system.
It was Scott Kirby's attempts to blame the FAA and DOT for UA's overscheduling instead of accepting that the FAA had its part to do with getting ATC working reliably - which wasn't happening - and UA needed to cut capacity below what UA had scheduled. It took the FAA and DOT's hand to push EWR cuts for all carriers well below what UA wanted.
It is unlikely the FAA and DOT will ever allow EWR to return to pre-runway construction levels so the share shift is not likely to swing back to UA.
given that DL is now carrying 2X as much domestic traffic as UA is from NYC, this reality has enormous implications for the market and for the ability to support international service.
and ultimately the aircraft that DL and UA use depends on its hubs and the routes it flies or can fly.
What?! Now even Ben is listening to that fraud Tim Dunn. He just spread this rumor to exert the superiority of DL over UA & AA once again by saying that DL is increasing widebody capacity.
From a consumer standpoint, it might be argued that Delta's greatest weakness is the 767. For me, while others might disagree, I will always opt for AA FF over Delta One for transcon.
thanks, Ben.
The reason why AA, DL and UA are less likely to have multiple widebody types is because they have multiple hubs that use widebodies and it is very costly to have that multiple widebody types at multiple hubs esp. from a crew staffing standpoint, including reserves.
We are in the window when DL has to act if it wants 787s in the late 2020s - which also coincides with pulling the 767-300ERs...
thanks, Ben.
The reason why AA, DL and UA are less likely to have multiple widebody types is because they have multiple hubs that use widebodies and it is very costly to have that multiple widebody types at multiple hubs esp. from a crew staffing standpoint, including reserves.
We are in the window when DL has to act if it wants 787s in the late 2020s - which also coincides with pulling the 767-300ERs from international service - although they are expected to remain in limited domestic service for a couple years after that.
People love to talk about how many orders UA has but fail to point out what each airline is actually getting delivered.
DL has led the US airlines in the number of widebodies delivered for 2024 and will do so in 2025.
and I do think that AA will order the 787-10 as well.
I agree, AA will more than likely order the 787-10 as a 77E replacement. The costs of once again overhauling the 77Es and extending their service life are likely significant, and for frames that are 1999-2002 builds, at 47 units it may be worth just replacing them.
I don't see DL ordering a Boeing wide body unless the senseless trade war that the administration is pursuing makes acquiring Airbus jets so prohibitive. By then,...
I agree, AA will more than likely order the 787-10 as a 77E replacement. The costs of once again overhauling the 77Es and extending their service life are likely significant, and for frames that are 1999-2002 builds, at 47 units it may be worth just replacing them.
I don't see DL ordering a Boeing wide body unless the senseless trade war that the administration is pursuing makes acquiring Airbus jets so prohibitive. By then, there won't be much left of US economic growth anyway, which will be marked by stubborn stagflation and little to no corporate traffic or premium demand. Delta will likely replace the 767-300/400 fleet with A330-900s.