VASAviation is an awesome YouTube channel that shares some interesting air traffic control situations, with both ATC audio and a recreation of what happened. The channel published an interesting video today, that I think many avgeeks will enjoy.
In this post:
Sloppy LAX parallel takeoff leads to close call
Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) is of course a large and busy airport, and it has four (near) parallel runways. While they’re not all used for takeoffs and landings at the same time, it’s not unusual to have two parallel takeoffs.
That brings us to this situation, which unfolded on July 7, 2024. There are two aircraft involved here:
- Sun Country flight SY428 was scheduled to fly from Los Angeles (LAX) to Minneapolis (MSP); it was operated by a seven-year-old Boeing 737-800 with the registration code N840SY
- Air Canada flight AC776 was scheduled to fly from Los Angeles (LAX) to Toronto (YYZ); it was operated by a five-year-old Boeing 737 MAX 8 with the registration code C-GEHQ
The Air Canada jet was cleared for takeoff on runway 25R, and a moment later, the Sun Country jet was cleared for takeoff on the nearly parallel runway 24R.
Planes have takeoff procedures that they use, which often have codes. In this case, the Sun Country 737 was cleared for a certain departure. This takeoff procedure requires maintaining the runway heading, before eventually making a left turn.
The key part of this is that the left turn is only supposed to be made when the air traffic controller calls for it. However, for whatever reason, shortly after takeoff, the Sun Country pilots made a left turn without permission from air traffic control. This put them in the direct path of the Air Canada jet, which was following the correct procedures.
The air traffic controller gets an alert about this, and immediately tells the Sun Country jet to change its course:
“Sun Country 428, stop your turn immediately. Traffic alert, 11 o’clock in a mile, southwest bound, 2,700, turn right eastbound, correction, westbound, immediately.”
While it’s unlikely there would have been a collision, the planes were at similar altitudes, and certainly too close for comfort.
As you’d expect, the air traffic controller eventually gives the Sun Country pilots a number to call, for a possible pilot deviation. Based on the speed of the response from the Sun Country pilots, it sure seems like they were expecting that number, heh.
A moment after the Sun Country pilot reads back those instructions, the Sun Country pilot once again reads back instructions that were intended for another flight. In fairness, the controller maybe could have had a longer pause there, but still, some training might be necessary there.
Below is the VASAviation video about the incident.
Below is what the departure ended up looking like for this Sun Country flight.
Meanwhile below is what the departure looks like under more normal circumstances, when instructions are followed correctly.
A few observations from this incident…
First of all, kudos to the air traffic controller, who is doing an amazing job handling incredibly busy airspace. He strikes a good balance between being assertive and efficient, while also being calm and nice. He also has a really soothing voice, I must say, and I could listen to him all day.
Next, obviously air traffic controllers work in high stress environments, and have a lot on their plate. But my gosh, listening to this, you can’t help but notice just how busy the airspace is. There’s barely a pause between radio exchanges, and for that matter, there’s repeatedly people “stepping over” one another on the radio, due to how busy the frequency is.
Like, how much busier can airspace get while staying safe? It shows how both air traffic controllers and pilots need to be on top of their game 100% of the time, because there’s such little room for error.
Lastly, I just want to acknowledge that this incident isn’t as bad as some of the other recent incidents that we’ve seen, like a Southwest 737 descending dangerously low in Oklahoma City, or a Southwest 737 taking off from a closed runway, or a Southwest 737 having a dangerous go around in Hawaii.
However, this is a really silly mistake by these Sun Country pilots that makes you wonder. LAX is a busy airport, and it’s my understanding that instructions are crystal clear about not making the turn until advised to do so. It’s one thing for one of the pilots to get this wrong, but isn’t this partly why we have two pilots? Did the other pilot not think something was wrong either?
Bottom line
A Sun Country Boeing 737 had an eventful departure from LAX. Long story short, the pilots weren’t following the correct takeoff procedure, and made an unauthorized left turn, putting them right in the direction of an Air Canada 737 taking off on a parallel runway. Fortunately the air traffic controller was on top of his game, and immediately saw what was going on.
What do you make of this LAX incident?
My husband was originally scheduled to return home that day on that flight! I'm glad his plans changed and stayed in LA a little longer...we had complete faith in Sun Country, until now
Sun Country is one of the lowest paying airlines with regards to pilot salaries. Why on earth would an experienced pilot with an unblemished training and flight record go to work for Sun Country. If you think Sun Country Airlines hires the cream of the pilot cropp I’d like to sell you a bridge in Manhattan.
The four runways at LAX are parallel at 242 degrees and 062 degrees magnetic so arrivals and relatives stay separated. It can be assumed that cross winds will affect departing flights similarly, but maybe not exactly. A long time from now, the variation will change and the runway numbers and headings will need to be changed.
Departures, not relatives, unless you don't like them.
Last time I checked Sun Country has never had an accident or major incident since 1983 when it was founded by a handful of ex Braniff people. TCAS would have saved the day if all else failed.
For the record the LAX runways are parallel however like CDG with four runways one side ofthe field is 24L and R and the other is 25L and R to avoid confusion
Agreed that his voice is quiet nice. But when I listen to ATC transmissions, I realize just how skilled most everyone in commercial aviation is. Yes, I'm aware there are a few bad apples. However, these people master the mechanics of flight, can understand ATC radio (ooof!), maintain visual awareness AND most importantly seem to know 10,000 acronyms!! Unbelievable & damn impressive.
25R and 25L are parallel at LAX. Not sure about a 24R.
All four runways at LAX are parallel with headings of 071/251
The... what departure? You mean the ORCKA?
They probably habitually armed LNAV and didn't recognize the error.
A few things to note:
1. There is no "FABRA departure" out of LAX. Fabra is a waypoint that you fly to. Tower will tell you the first fix on takeoff to make sure you have the right one programed for the departure runway.
2. This is most likely the OSHNN 1 RNAV departure that has a set route that you fly.
3. Without other instructions from tower such as fly runway...
A few things to note:
1. There is no "FABRA departure" out of LAX. Fabra is a waypoint that you fly to. Tower will tell you the first fix on takeoff to make sure you have the right one programed for the departure runway.
2. This is most likely the OSHNN 1 RNAV departure that has a set route that you fly.
3. Without other instructions from tower such as fly runway heading before takeoff the pilots will be making a left turn after intersection NAANC which is 10 miles from the runway.
Actually, SY428 was on the ORCKA5 departure from 24R which is essentially to fly runway heading 251 until instructed to begin the long looping left turn back to KLIPR, which is what the controller explained.
AC776 was on the OSHNN1.
Headline somewhere: “Two Boeing Jets in Close Call over Los Angeles”
My takeaway: Southwest has quite a few reckless pilots on their hands
You're aware that Sun Country and Southwest are different airlines? Or did you just want to post idiocy.
Maybe read the article a little better: is it not alarming that Ben mentioned 3 different Southwest Airlines incidents near the end as reference to recent incidents overall? Also not to mention another one in Tampa almost crashed so read before you speak!!!
Feels like a computer could handle this far more efficiently, with humans just stepping in if there's a malfunction. You're reliant on waiting for a human at the other end to hear some instructions and then manually adjust the plane? Too slow.
The whole problem in this case is almost certainly because they turned on the computer/autopilot. The predecessor to this departure procedure, the LOOP, had the exact same problem. Rare in real life, but in flight sim environments like Vatsim and pilotedge you get a lot of simmers who aren't paying attention and turn the autopilot on at 400 feet, and the computer turns left direct the first waypoint on the departure procedure.
Way back...
The whole problem in this case is almost certainly because they turned on the computer/autopilot. The predecessor to this departure procedure, the LOOP, had the exact same problem. Rare in real life, but in flight sim environments like Vatsim and pilotedge you get a lot of simmers who aren't paying attention and turn the autopilot on at 400 feet, and the computer turns left direct the first waypoint on the departure procedure.
Way back in the day when it was the LOOP you got an even better mistake when autopilot goes on, the FMS would turn right direct LAX, and clip into the arrival stream over SMO. The refreshed ORCKA departures added a new waypoint KLIPR south of the airport so if someone turns autopilot on before the first waypoint, in this case FABRE, at least it forces a left turn.
As a pilot, you never want to receive the call to copy a phone number to ATC. This flight crew will be asked questions about their deviation and issued a "brasher". Sun Country flight management will be notified and the Company will have to take some kind of corrective action.
Issuing the Brasher Notification, for even apparently minor or “no harm-no foul” occurrences, enables Flight Standards to establish a productive conversation with the airman...
As a pilot, you never want to receive the call to copy a phone number to ATC. This flight crew will be asked questions about their deviation and issued a "brasher". Sun Country flight management will be notified and the Company will have to take some kind of corrective action.
Issuing the Brasher Notification, for even apparently minor or “no harm-no foul” occurrences, enables Flight Standards to establish a productive conversation with the airman regarding a situation that may have posed a risk to the NAS. When engaging an airman that is calling the facility pursuant to a Brasher Notification, remain neutral and stick to the facts. Do not provide your personal opinion, and do not minimize the situation or suggest or comment on the potential outcome of a Flight Standards investigation. This detached and professional approach is the best way we can support Flight Standards in conducting an investigation that leads to a positive, safety-enhancing conclusion. Remember, issuing the Brasher Notification is not about fault. It’s about information collection leading to risk reduction in a non-punitive environment.
FABRA isn't the SID but is instead a waypoint along the SID. They were probably on the ORCKA5 SID based on their destination
FABRA? That’s the old LOOP(7) departure. Been used since the profile descent days. Not sure how they messed that up since the north and south complex have different tower frequencies. If they read it back correctly the.n it’s on the pilots. Where was TCAS here for the traffic alert.
PS: the controller should have used ‘break’ if he meant the second part of his transmission for another flight.
Ah yes the Loop departures! Flew the DC-9 for Midwest Express into LAX in the mid 90s. When reading back the clearance we would almost always request the "extended loop" because we were always too heavy to make the 10,000 ft crossing of the LAX VORTAC.
ATC was great in that they always let us extend!
Great times!!
Been a few situations lately where the question of TCAS comes up. Personally had one a couple years back where I had to issue similar alerts, and was surprised the aircraft involved didn't get an R.A.
As I see it, it goes to show that automation isn't yet close to perfection. There may be risk to having humans in control, but we're long from ready to pass it on to programmed computers or other AI/algorithmic based systems.
the aviation system is being pushed near the breaking point on a regular basis.
Just as is often the case, 2 of the 3 parties are doing the right thing which prevents disaster.
hard to know the experience or seniority of the SY pilots but there are alot of less-senior pilots in the cockpits as well as in ATC facilities today. Technology needs to help bridge the gap.
This wouldn't happen on Delta™©.
Prob a DEI thing?
Comments like this put me at risk for rolling my eyes so hard I tear a muscle. I hope one day your extremely dense skull is able to process that commercial pilots in the US with thousands of hours, type ratings, and yearly testing are no more or less safe based on their gender or skin color.
If the back of the plane isn’t filled with 100% white dudes, why should the flight deck be?
Ignorance is bliss my friend
As long as you’re happy.
you cant tell that these people are just here to troll? it it second only to the tim dunn trolls for this site and comes up in every post