Southwest Airlines has just internally revealed details of an incident that occurred back in April 2024, which can only be described as a very close call.
In this post:
Southwest 737 descends to 400 feet above ocean
This incident dates back to April 11, 2024, and involves Southwest Airlines flight WN2786, scheduled to operate from Honolulu (HNL) to Lihue (LIH). The short 102-mile flight was operated by a roughly two-year-old Boeing 737 MAX 8 with the registration code N8788L.
Interestingly this incident wasn’t investigated by authorities at the time. Instead, this safety incident was reported internally, and Southwest’s Director of Flight Safety Programs & Assurance recently sent a memo to all pilots about what happened, which is why this is now getting some publicity.
With this incident, a very senior captain and a very junior first officer were paired on a three-day trip to Hawaii. The flight from the mainland to Hawaii went well, and then on the second day they were supposed to operate some inter-island flights.
Before the first flight, the pilots saw that the weather conditions at Lihue Airport were bad (poor visibility, thunderstorms, strong winds, etc.), and many pilots of other aircraft were performing missed approaches. Nonetheless, the captain elected to have the first officer be the “pilot flying” on this sector, to build their experience.
The pilots were prepared for a potential go around, given that conditions at the departure airport were just above the “minimums” needed to land, so they were fully briefed on the correct procedures. Sure enough, when the aircraft approached runway 17, the pilots didn’t have the runway in sight, so the first officer called for a go around. Unfortunately this go around was anything but routine.
During the go around, the first officer inadvertently pushed forward on the control column. The first officer also noticed the red airspeed tape, and pulled back on the thrust levers. When you push forward the control column and reduce thrust, there’s only one direction the plane is going, and that’s down. The plane descended from around 1,000 feet down to 400 feet(!!!!) above the Pacific Ocean.
While the “DON’T SINK” and “PULL UP” warnings went off in the cockpit during this time, the first officer states they didn’t hear this due to intense task saturation.
Fortunately the captain noticed what was going on at this point, and told the first officer to climb and turn left, causing the first officer to aggressively increase thrust. The aircraft climbed, maxing out at a climb rate of 8,500 feet per minute, which is very high.
Once the situation stabilized, the pilots first entered a holding pattern, and then made the decision to return to Honolulu, where the plane landed just under 85 minutes after it first departed.
Once back on the ground in Honolulu, the captain consulted with the dispatcher, and made the decision to try flying to Lihue again, with the captain being the “pilot flying” this time. Interestingly, the first officer didn’t speak up against this at the time, but later said that they wish they had shared their desire not to try a second attempt.
The first officer stated that they didn’t speak up in order to maintain the integrity of Southwest’s operation, and also because regulatory requirements to operate were still being met. So the flight departed Honolulu again, but weather conditions deteriorated, so the aircraft ultimately returned to Honolulu a second time.
@jonostrower published the full letter that Southwest shared internally with pilots regarding the incident, which is some fascinating reading.
I’m curious what’s learned from this event
It goes without saying that this event was terrifying, and a close call. The aircraft descended all the way down to 400 feet with virtually no visibility, so the plane was literally seconds from being in the Pacific Ocean. Fortunately this had a good ending for all involved.
There’s something to be learned from every aviation incident. Both pilots participated in a human factors interview following the flight, and stated that “seeing the severity of the event through the animations was a significant, emotional event.” The pilots also participated in comprehensive, corrective action, including Line Experience.
It’s way beyond my area of expertise to judge what happened here. It’s common for senior captains to be paired with junior officers (especially given how airline hiring has evolved in recent years), and it’s also important for newer pilots to gain experience with difficult situations, under close supervision.
What’s at least reassuring here is how transparently Southwest is communicating internally regarding this incident, and the fact that the pilots voluntarily reported what happened. That’s ultimately how aviation becomes safer.
Bottom line
A Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 had a close call in Hawaii back in April, while trying to land in Lihue during a storm. A junior first officer was flying, and executed a go around. Somehow the first officer inadvertently pushed the control column down while also reducing thrust, causing the jet to descend to an altitude of just 400 feet above sea level.
Once the error was realized, the pilots went to the opposite extreme, and the jet climbed at a speed of up to 8,500 feet per minute. Fortunately the pilots managed to divert the aircraft safely back to Honolulu, but my gosh, what an incident.
What do you make of this Southwest incident?
"...due to intense task saturation". I love that expression. The next time I'm in a flap, trying to unsuccessfully multi-task, I'll use that one.
Hi Johnson,
my answer was meant to be sarcastic. I cannot access your mail address here and I cannot access any bookings (other than my bookings).
I am still not sure if your question was a serious question or if you have a different motive.
Assuming it is a serious question there can be several explanations (and next time, please provide more information in your question e.g. flight was not full, 9 bags...
Hi Johnson,
my answer was meant to be sarcastic. I cannot access your mail address here and I cannot access any bookings (other than my bookings).
I am still not sure if your question was a serious question or if you have a different motive.
Assuming it is a serious question there can be several explanations (and next time, please provide more information in your question e.g. flight was not full, 9 bags were lost etc):
- your bag was not loaded onto the plane in STR (?) because a) shortage of baggage handlers b) overweight c) bag tag could not be read d) a remaining sticker from a previous flight was read e) late check in
- your bag was unloaded in FRA but not loaded to your UA plane because of a)/b)/c)/d) or f) Fraport forgot to load an entire trailer g) bags could not be loaded due to a thunderstorm e) your bag was stuck in secondary inspection.
- your bag was loaded by Fraport but not properly unloaded/transferred at your final destination (?)
Even if the passenger compartment is halfway empty, in theory weight restrictions could be the root cause in case of cargo or whatever.
Either way, Lufthansa is not loading/unloading the bags. It’s done by Fraport/Stuttgart airport.
Thanks! I knew you were not being serious about the giraffes and everything. I can tell you though after extended research what I think happened. The bag was loaded onto the plane in STR and flew with me to FRA (I know this as a fact). then Lufthansa ground crew took the bags off the plane but by the time they got to the United plane it was already gone. I also know that Lufthansa...
Thanks! I knew you were not being serious about the giraffes and everything. I can tell you though after extended research what I think happened. The bag was loaded onto the plane in STR and flew with me to FRA (I know this as a fact). then Lufthansa ground crew took the bags off the plane but by the time they got to the United plane it was already gone. I also know that Lufthansa has very limited ground personnel right now so that may also have contributed. My overall motive was just to find out what happened. Thanks, hope we're on good terms now.
Hey and another thing, do YOU (without researching) know how to identify a 767 vs A330 and 737 vs A320?
Are you sure it’s DEI and not CRT or JSL?
Is there any evidence that the FO was a diversity hire?
Of course not. Anytime there is an incident now its blamed on DEI, the new bogeyman, without one ounce of proof. Statistically speaking, the FO was likely a white male but that doesn’t stop the trolls from recklessly speculating.
Thank you for effectively shutting down the bigotry that so many feel free to immediately dive in to upon hearing of a story like this. Well done, sir.
I’ve flown this approach to LIH a few times in my 32-yr career with a major US carrier (now retired) so I understand what was going on in the cockpit on that approach. The article didn’t say, or I missed it - but if performed at night, in the weather, this approach can be particularly sporty. The runway is only 6500 feet long, and was probably wet. The approach course is offset by slightly more...
I’ve flown this approach to LIH a few times in my 32-yr career with a major US carrier (now retired) so I understand what was going on in the cockpit on that approach. The article didn’t say, or I missed it - but if performed at night, in the weather, this approach can be particularly sporty. The runway is only 6500 feet long, and was probably wet. The approach course is offset by slightly more than 15 degrees to the runway - and away from the copilot’s view, to make matters worse. It doesn’t surprise me that the copilot didn’t see the runway at the MAP. The missed approach altitude is 940’ MSL (842’ AGL) so, the fact that the plane’s path was mismanaged down to just 400’ above the water during a botched go-around isn’t, in itself, so aggregious. The news stories would have the public believe that the plane plunged from 16000 feet straight down to just 400 feet above the ocean. That didn’t happen. The lesson, in hindsight here, is that the Captain, despite his intent to let the FO get some experience in a challenging approach, would have been wiser to assume the Pilot Flying duties and save the training for another day. That would have certainly kept this event out of the papers.
Thanks for the real life viewpoint on this. Is it not highly unusual though to execute a missed approach and still descend 500 feet before the MAP?
Choose your side.
1) Mock Tim Dunn and bring Delta.
2) Blame DEI.
The OMAAT users never fails to amaze me. Never.
(I support neither Delta nor DEI, btw.)
social media has provided an enormous opportunity for some people to invent a world which does not exist in order to make themselves feel better about how they fit in the world and then shoot the messenger that tells them the reality as it really exists.
Specific to VS' new flight to Canada, it should be clear that VS - which is heavily influenced by DL - is using its financial strength to rearrange the...
social media has provided an enormous opportunity for some people to invent a world which does not exist in order to make themselves feel better about how they fit in the world and then shoot the messenger that tells them the reality as it really exists.
Specific to VS' new flight to Canada, it should be clear that VS - which is heavily influenced by DL - is using its financial strength to rearrange the industry not just from Canada but in other parts of the world. Air Canada has a lock on international travel from Canada even though there is decent competition on a number of routes. The UK is, by far, the best opportunity for a competitor to challenge AC's dominance.
VS has some clear holes in its transatlantic network and you have to ask why they feel more comfortable taking on AC than in some of the AA and UA hubs in the US which they do not serve.
Don’t be such a small person Tim
Tim Dunn - small person
Dim Tunn - big person
as I said above, some people are incapable of discussing the topics at hand so invent their own reality and mock those that CAN carry on the discussion.
Everyone except you understands that YOU are the small person. Really small.
Social media gives you the platform to ACT big.
No u
I was waiting for the requisite blaming DEI without any evidence for anything that goes wrong with a plane now. In an industry where 90% of pilots are WT males, statistically it was more likely that who was flying the plane. I enjoyed OMAAT more than the other travel sites as it had less raci** musings than others (looking at you LALF) but lately these ignorant people have migrated more over here like “David Sims”...
I was waiting for the requisite blaming DEI without any evidence for anything that goes wrong with a plane now. In an industry where 90% of pilots are WT males, statistically it was more likely that who was flying the plane. I enjoyed OMAAT more than the other travel sites as it had less raci** musings than others (looking at you LALF) but lately these ignorant people have migrated more over here like “David Sims” below who is outwardly suggesting that mentally demanding jobs can only be done by a certain segment of people. The ignorance is palpable and also sad for this country.
I think maybe the use of the "they" pronoun in reference to the FO in the memo that was issued may have caught some readers attention. At first I thought "they" referred to the Capt & FO, but it appears that it refers just to the FO. Since, as you point out, the majority of pilots are males, using "he" there would seem to be a safe & generic enough term. Use of "they" could...
I think maybe the use of the "they" pronoun in reference to the FO in the memo that was issued may have caught some readers attention. At first I thought "they" referred to the Capt & FO, but it appears that it refers just to the FO. Since, as you point out, the majority of pilots are males, using "he" there would seem to be a safe & generic enough term. Use of "they" could be seen as an effort to address (blur) a minority/diversity status.
Also, many (most?) people who have concerns about DEI actually have no problems with minority group themselves, their actual concern is the lowering of acceptance criteria and evaluation standards that DEI protocols require. While well intended, lowering competency requirements for any reason, should be a concern and needs to be done with *great* care.
Note: I take no stance for or against DEI and have no knowledge of this specific FO's demographic. Simply attempting to provide some extra food for thought.
"given that conditions at the departure airport were just above the “minimums” needed to land"
Should this be "at the *arrival* airport"?
I'd guess what they meant here was that *at the time of departure*, conditions at their destination were just above mins.
I could not help noticing that the names of the captain and the first officer of Southwest 2786 were not given. Could that omission be corrected? The captain saved the aircraft, which was endangered by the first officer's poor judgment. Some of us have suspected that many problems encountered in mentally demanding tasks are the direct or indirect result of DEI goals, in which diversity is prioritized over merit. We think that phrases such as...
I could not help noticing that the names of the captain and the first officer of Southwest 2786 were not given. Could that omission be corrected? The captain saved the aircraft, which was endangered by the first officer's poor judgment. Some of us have suspected that many problems encountered in mentally demanding tasks are the direct or indirect result of DEI goals, in which diversity is prioritized over merit. We think that phrases such as "newer" (first officer) may be euphemisms for diversity-hire.
No, the captains name and first officer's names can not be provided. The purpose of the Aviation Safety Action Program is to provide an anonymized reporting mechanism that encourages crews to report incidents so that actions can be taken systemwide to improve safety. Much less likely to happen if some dingbat on the internet is going to get their name.
Newer first officer means just that...they are newer, and in an industry that still...
No, the captains name and first officer's names can not be provided. The purpose of the Aviation Safety Action Program is to provide an anonymized reporting mechanism that encourages crews to report incidents so that actions can be taken systemwide to improve safety. Much less likely to happen if some dingbat on the internet is going to get their name.
Newer first officer means just that...they are newer, and in an industry that still is hiring 90% white males, it is more likely than not that the FO is just that, a white male. Although it may surprise you to find out that women and minorities can make excellent pilots as well.
Diversity , Equity, and Inclusion. Keep lowering the bar.
Both pilots in this case were white...
Diversity is more than just skin color.
Racist comment. This is getting to be a bigger problem here.
Wtf does this comment even mean?
DEI in real life!
I’ll pray for you. Get that hate out of your heart. It’s toxic.
Indians should be the last one to talk about the racism or even the political correctness. I would never understand why Indians cry about the racism they suffer when they're the one forms the most racist country in the world?
Please allow me to be the first to inform you that this would not happen on Delta. Thanks so much!
Delta flight 1141. it did happen.
No it didn’t. More united lies
I have been flying for 60 years. I have experienced flying (pilot caused) events on commercials flights that these days would make the evening news, but were just "swept under the rug" back in the day. I am glad this kind of stuff is now being reported, at least online.
It was just on ABC World News Tonight along w/ the Dutch Roll and fake titanium from Spirit Aerosystems
oddly no positive news about Delta in the segment tho
the "fuzzy" story at the end was about a soldier that came home from the other side of the world for his son's graduation.
Nothing else could top that.
God bless all that makes out country great on this Flag Day.
OH MY LORDY ! What a scary happening. You can’t tell me that some of the pax weren’t looking out the windows and thinking , this is IT!
Push down to go down, pull up to go UP! Common sense! The Capt is not there to teach her/him/they/it, that basic fact! Sheesh! Too much of this going on folks. These are peoples lives. Yes, I know that you are safer flying, than in a...
OH MY LORDY ! What a scary happening. You can’t tell me that some of the pax weren’t looking out the windows and thinking , this is IT!
Push down to go down, pull up to go UP! Common sense! The Capt is not there to teach her/him/they/it, that basic fact! Sheesh! Too much of this going on folks. These are peoples lives. Yes, I know that you are safer flying, than in a car…until you aren’t. But that was then long ago and these are SCARY times now!
And that was then with higher standards and this is now with all sorts of people being pushed in for “inclusiveness.” DEI hires, a warm body without sufficient qualifications to fly?? Was this scenario not in a sim session for this “ new pilot?” Capability and talent is what it takes! Seems issues with DEI in maintenance, ( think Alaska and the missing bolts) probably also in assembly of these 737’s and SPIRIT parts provider . So much coming to the surface…however no solutions??
I live on an island, I MUST fly to go anywhere…Maybe WN isn’t the right choice. Stick with local airline, Hawaiian Airlines folks. Interisland pilots have more experience locally…Pay for local knowledge experience.
Does anyone know this: the vax injured pilots who were grounded being again allowed to fly. Was told FAA requirements were lowered. Go figure.
It doesn't say a what altitude they started the go-around. The descent "all the way down to 400 feet(!!!!)" could have only been a small deviation if say, they started the go around at 500 feet. Second, planes get all the way down to 400 feet all the time as part of normal operations. Sometimes it's even over water.
„Southwest Flight 2786 dropped from an altitude of roughly 1,000 feet to 400 feet above the ocean in just a few seconds, according to data from ADS-B Exchange, a flight tracking website“ https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/2024/06/15/hawaii-news/feds-investigate-southwest-flights-rapid-descent-off-kauai/amp/
The minimums on that approach are pretty high, due to lack of vertical guidance, and a hill that is fairly right of course. Ultimately, they really weren't in much trouble, and they handled the go around quite well.
Hey Ben - have you ever taken flight lessons? There is nothing sinister in my question, just curious. Would be cool to see you up in a C172! :)
Ben has a PPL
Hey, totally not related question. I flew from Stuttgart to Frankfurt on Lufthansa and then to Chicago on United. I had a 1 hour 10-minute connection. Why didn't my checked bag make it to Chicago? It was one itinerary. Is Lufthansa just really bad at transferring bags to another flight?
-Thanks
they discovered that you ask stupid questions on threads that have nothing to do with the topic and decided to punish you in advance
Why is this question stupid?
Your question is stupid because it already includes a stupid hypothesis.
So what exactly is your intention?
If you wanted to trigger other commenters to bully Lufthansa, that didn’t work.
Now to answer your question as I looked up the incident regarding your suitcase:
- Lufthansa staff did a fantastic job unloading your bag.
- your bag was then placed on a state-of-the-art baggage belt from Fraport and sent to your...
Your question is stupid because it already includes a stupid hypothesis.
So what exactly is your intention?
If you wanted to trigger other commenters to bully Lufthansa, that didn’t work.
Now to answer your question as I looked up the incident regarding your suitcase:
- Lufthansa staff did a fantastic job unloading your bag.
- your bag was then placed on a state-of-the-art baggage belt from Fraport and sent to your united plane
- it was a decision by the United Airline pilots operating your flight not to load your bag because of weight restrictions.
You’re welcome.
1rst, I like Lufthansa. They offer LINDT chocolate in ECONOMY! 2nd the flight was mostly empty with plenty of space and weight for bags. So, obviously, YOUR hypothesis was the wrong one.
Dear Johnson,
Since you didn’t post your record locator here it took me some time to find your booking under your email address.
I again checked the root causes and can confirm that the aircraft was overweight, thus your bag and the bags of 4 other passengers couldn’t be loaded onto the plane.
The plane was carrying 4 camels for the annual camel race in Milwaukee and 2 giraffes for the Zoo in Chicago.
Klaus_S,
You're lying. 1rst that isn't my real email address. 2nd its not possible for you to see my booking by using a "fake" email address. 3rd the plane was not overweight. 4rth more than 9 people lost their bags not four. 5th there is no such thing as an "annuel camel race" in Milwaukee. 6th the only new giraffe they got was a baby girl that was born there. If you have any more lies to spew please do so that I may prove you wrong... again.
Oh ya and another thing they don't fly giraffes on airliners. If they fly they always fly on cargo planes.
Your question is stupid because it already includes a stupid hypothesis.
So what exactly is your intention?
If you wanted to trigger other commenters to bully Lufthansa, that didn’t work.
Now to answer your question as I looked up the incident regarding your suitcase:
- Lufthansa staff did a fantastic job unloading your bag.
- your bag was then placed on a state-of-the-art baggage belt from Fraport and sent to your...
Your question is stupid because it already includes a stupid hypothesis.
So what exactly is your intention?
If you wanted to trigger other commenters to bully Lufthansa, that didn’t work.
Now to answer your question as I looked up the incident regarding your suitcase:
- Lufthansa staff did a fantastic job unloading your bag.
- your bag was then placed on a state-of-the-art baggage belt from Fraport and sent to your united plane
- it was a decision by the United Airline pilots operating your flight not to load your bag because of weight restrictions.
You’re welcome.
This isn't the Star Alliance Customer Service website.
Your right, but I just thought I would find someone out there who could find it in their heart to be a little nice and give me an explanation.
Dude, “why” didn’t the bag get transferred? There are so many reasons. How could any of us know the answer to that question? There’s a whole website called FlyerTalk.com for this kind of stuff, though, if you’re interested.
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH! Your post did not help much but it was the only answer I got that was not by people treating me like I was stupid. I mean seriously look at what I wrote look at what they wrote and look at my reply.
Because some people on this chat are really smart or maybe even work for Lufthansa, United, or Frankfurt Airport.
Diversity is our strength.