What. A. Mess.
If reports are to be believed (and there’s lots of documentation suggesting that they should be believed), a lot of passengers were denied boarding on a Lufthansa flight simply for looking Jewish, to pay for the mask-related “crimes” of other Jews. Let me try to tackle this as simply as possible.
In this post:
There were mask compliance issues on a Lufthansa flight
DansDeals has a detailed description of what happened, though let me try to simplify it a bit further. This situation started on Lufthansa flight 401 from New York (JFK) to Frankfurt (FRA) on Wednesday, May 4, 2022.
It’s estimated that there were 135-170 Orthodox Jews traveling on the flight, including many connecting to Budapest (as part of an annual pilgrimage to visit the grave of a Rabbi). This estimate is based on knowing that one travel agency sold 80 tickets, another travel agency sold 30 tickets, and then a bunch of people booked individually, either with cash or points.
There were apparently some mask compliance issues onboard. While the United States no longer requires masks on planes, and while Frankfurt Airport no longer requires masks when at the airport, masks are required on flights to & from Germany.
The crew was apparently extremely vigilant about ensuring that everyone wore their mask, which is fair enough. There were allegedly mask compliance issues with some passengers, to the point that the decision was made that these passengers should be denied boarding on their connecting flight to Budapest, due to not following crew member instructions.
That’s fair enough, except…
By association, Lufthansa denied all Jews boarding
Passengers connecting from Frankfurt to Budapest were in for quite a surprise, as the departure gate had many armed German police officers there. Lufthansa didn’t deny boarding just to those who were confirmed to have mask compliance issues on the flight to New York, but seemingly to anyone coming from New York who “looked” Jewish (it’s claimed that non-Jewish passengers were allowed to board).
According to reports, it was the captain who made the decision about which passengers should be denied boarding.
In a video that was posted to YouTube (but which has since been taken down for violating terms of service), a passenger could be heard talking to a Lufthansa agent:
Passenger: I was wearing a mask the entire time, why am I lumped in with them?
Lufthansa agent: It was one, everyone has to pay for a couple.
Passenger: What do you mean everybody, everybody from that race? Everybody else on the flight went.
Lufthansa agent: Not everybody.
Passenger: The non-Jewish people on the flight went. Why are only the Jewish people paying for other people’s crimes?
Lufthansa agent: Because it’s Jews coming from JFK.
Passenger: Oh, so Jewish people coming from JFK are paying for the crimes of a few people?
Lufthansa agent: No
Passenger: Jewish people are paying for the crimes of Israel?
Lufthansa agent: No
Passenger: Just the Jewish people on that flight?
Lufthansa agent: Do you want to discuss with me or no? Do you want to listen to me?
Passenger: I’m like shocked beyond, never in my adult life. I’ve never heard this.
Lufthansa agent: If you want to do it like this, Jewish people who were the mess, who made the problems.
Passenger: So Jewish people on the plane made a problem, so all Jews are banned from Lufthansa for the day?
Lufthansa agent: Just for this flight.
In another video posted to YouTube, you can hear a gate agent explaining the following:
“Due to operational reasons, coming from the flight from New York, for all passengers here we have to cancel you on this flight. You know why it was.”
Things get especially tense when a passenger calls the police officer a Nazi (which isn’t cool, in my opinion).
Lufthansa confirmed that 127 people were banned from the airline for a period of 24 hours. It has also been confirmed that only 30 people were onboard the flight from Frankfurt to Budapest.
I can’t think of any defense for Lufthansa here?
I certainly want to believe that there’s more to the story, rather than an airline lumping everyone of the same religion together, and punishing them for the actions of a few. However, there’s quite a bit of evidence here suggesting that this is at least mostly as it appears:
- There’s a difference between banning an individual for a mask related incident, and banning an entire group of people for their association with someone who had a mask related issue
- Unless Lufthansa can produce inflight disturbance reports for each and every one of the people denied boarding, then it sure seems like everyone was just lumped in together
- The Lufthansa agent herself confirms that others are being punished for the crimes of some — “it was one, everyone has to pay for a couple”
- It’s not even like all the Orthodox Jewish passengers booked through the same channels, but they booked through many sources, but were all treated the same
We’ve seen a lot of mask related incidents in the past couple of years, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a case where all passengers connecting from a certain flight were banned, even without proof of everyone having done something wrong.
One has to wonder if anyone in a position of authority (other than a captain) was involved in any decision making here. Aside from this just being plain wrong and discriminatory, the optics here are horrible, with a German airline denying boarding to passengers for being Jewish. You’d think Lufthansa would want to be a bit more sensitive around that topic.
So far Lufthansa has just indicated that this situation is being investigated, and I’m curious to see if anything comes of this.
Bottom line
Lufthansa is accused of denying boarding to a majority of passengers on a flight to Budapest, simply because they were Jewish. There were mask compliance issues on a flight from New York, and rather than banning specific passengers who were non-compliant, the airline reportedly banned all Jewish passengers by association.
I hope that Lufthansa conducts a proper investigation into the incident, as the airline has to do better than this…
What do you make of this Lufthansa incident? While different opinions are welcome, please be respectful, given the sensitive nature of this…
Germany is still a very racist country (I am non-white and live here). Frankfurt Airport has a reputation for rudeness and so does LH. I personally choose to no longer fly with them after one too many negative experiences. The conversation here around race, multiculturalism and so on is not so nuanced as in other places - perhaps partly because of the German language itself, which is much more direct than English. However, the attitude...
Germany is still a very racist country (I am non-white and live here). Frankfurt Airport has a reputation for rudeness and so does LH. I personally choose to no longer fly with them after one too many negative experiences. The conversation here around race, multiculturalism and so on is not so nuanced as in other places - perhaps partly because of the German language itself, which is much more direct than English. However, the attitude of foreigners/non-protestants needing to integrate, rather than allowing for multiculturalism (Merkel herself criticised "multiculti" several years ago) needs to evolve.
Kudos to LH and the 4th reich
In the first post the Adolf sympathizer tries to hide his hate when he claims lets make an example of them , then he changes his tune as its not hate enough so he goes on to write about 4 Reich.
He is not English as he writes Got to make an example out of these people instead of Got to make an example of these people.
Got to make an example out of these people. They think they can do whatever they want.
Are you kidding me?this should be a much bigger story here in America,the handful of people who refused to wear masks should of obviously not been allowed to board the flight.The bigger problem here is the passivity of the Jewish people myself included.If there was done to other races or religions there would be pickets and the mainstream media would be all over this.The attitude here seems to be the hasidim are annoying so whatever...
Are you kidding me?this should be a much bigger story here in America,the handful of people who refused to wear masks should of obviously not been allowed to board the flight.The bigger problem here is the passivity of the Jewish people myself included.If there was done to other races or religions there would be pickets and the mainstream media would be all over this.The attitude here seems to be the hasidim are annoying so whatever happens to them is fine.SMH,the officers should be called nazis because they were acting like them,whatever happened to “NEVER AGAIN”
It should be a bigger story here in Germany too. There are too many antisemitic incidents lately (the Documenta one being another example) that come from white Germans. They love to blame Muslims for the recent increase in antisemitism, but time and time again, we see that this is not always the case.
I am Jewish. The people the took off the plane were NOT all Jews or anyone who looked Jewish. NO. They denied boarding to on the connecting flight were the Ultra Orthodox Jews who were wearing their "Black" outfits and were the ones who were refusing to wear masks on the prior flight or praying in the isles without masks. They were traveling as a group and they all got denied boarding for the connecting...
I am Jewish. The people the took off the plane were NOT all Jews or anyone who looked Jewish. NO. They denied boarding to on the connecting flight were the Ultra Orthodox Jews who were wearing their "Black" outfits and were the ones who were refusing to wear masks on the prior flight or praying in the isles without masks. They were traveling as a group and they all got denied boarding for the connecting flight. I am certain that there were other Jewish people on that flight who were not wearing the "black garb" and were not ultra orthodox who ended up making their connecting flights with no problem at all. Clearing, the writer of the article does not know the span of Jewish people at all. I say, "good for Lufthansa" for enforcing their rules.
1. As of your comment it does not appear that you're Jewish.
2. Profiling all people who wear the same uniform or dress code because 1 or 2 people (yes, as per many eyewitnesses) didn't wear the mask properly.
p.s. Eyewitnesses also claim that there were quite a few non-Jews that weren't wearing masks either, they didn't ban all Germans, Middle easterners, Californians or protestants because a few of that religion or ethnicity weren't wearing...
1. As of your comment it does not appear that you're Jewish.
2. Profiling all people who wear the same uniform or dress code because 1 or 2 people (yes, as per many eyewitnesses) didn't wear the mask properly.
p.s. Eyewitnesses also claim that there were quite a few non-Jews that weren't wearing masks either, they didn't ban all Germans, Middle easterners, Californians or protestants because a few of that religion or ethnicity weren't wearing the masks, it's clear and open anti semitism, Yep, in modern 2022, and shamefully it happened in Germany..
your comment is full of hatred and is false. I have spoken to people on the flight and #Dansdeals is writing it very accurately
I am Jewish myself. This is a matter of these Ultra Orthodox Jews refusing to follow the rules. Praying in the isles without masks on and refusing to wear masks. There were an entire large group of them and it became impossible for the staff to single them out, I am certain. It is not anti Jewish as the article would imply. This is one incident in a long history of this type of misbehavior on flights by Ultra Orthodox Jews. And again, I stress......I am a Jew.
its anti hassidic
FYI Jewish and Anti-Semitic aren't contradictory. It's entirely possible that you are a Jewish Anti-Semite.
You have clearly watched too much of Lavrov‘s russian propaganda in the last couple weeks.
Seat numbers ?
Lumping all black hatters in 1 group is discriminatory
You might be a Jew but you are obviously not up to date on law and what constitutes discrimination. I would wholeheartedly punish those that did wrong. Punishing anybody else, for whatever reason is wrong and if based on religion, de facto discrimination.
If someone hates Jews, any time one jew does something wrong, they will always use it as proof that they are all bad. The same goes for anyone with bias agsinst any group.
However, that there was collective punishment meted out by a commercial entity, That is a surprise.
R Rabinowitz's comment is spot on.
The police officer with his rifle and "Who said that", certainly gives off concentration camp guard vibes. I don't know why some people here bend over backwards to defend the actions of Lufthansa.
What the hell? It’s better to judge people by actions, not by ‚vibes‘ that you are imagining in your own little brain.
I agree 100 percent,I would’ve proudly said I did,if I made that comment,all of the Jews should’ve non violently stood together and said they all did
absolutely right decision.
you obviously share the same prejudices. would you also support banning dark-skinned people, or discriminating against those wearing traditional arabic dress, based solely on their appearance?
Really,ban all people who look Jewish because of the actions of a few!!!!,
If this would have happened to all blacks on flight if a few behaved badly what do you think would have happened.
So reading the detailed story on dansdeals, it seems quite obvious they banned all the folks booked as a group. There were individual Jews that had booked separate tickets and they made it onto the connecting flight. While I am sure LH could have handled this better, they simply determined a group of people who misbevahed and banned them from a flight. When the Canadian parties were banned to fly back from Mexico we all...
So reading the detailed story on dansdeals, it seems quite obvious they banned all the folks booked as a group. There were individual Jews that had booked separate tickets and they made it onto the connecting flight. While I am sure LH could have handled this better, they simply determined a group of people who misbevahed and banned them from a flight. When the Canadian parties were banned to fly back from Mexico we all cheered, when it's relgious folks, then immediately it is discrimination. Also, they claim that any non-Jew was allowed on the flight to Budapest. Well, I am just wondering how many people flying JFK-FRA would continue on to Budapest in a normal scenario (outside of this organized group travel). Very few I would say. People boarding the FRA-BUD flight are more likely to come from wherever , even originating in FRA. So yeah, they didn't ban folks that came from other flights. As such it's nonsense to claim that they only allowed non-Jews onto the FRA-BUD flight. They simply banned everyone part of the group travel because they caused issues on the flight before.
according to the DansDeals story this was NOT a group.
Over 100 people, a large percentage booked their own tickets, and some were on a group booking.
All visibly Jewish passengers were denied boarding despite having no relation to the group other than their religion.
If they pulled the flight records and took everyone flying ex-JFK to the connection onward, and then individually allowed some passengers to fly once they determined they weren't a part of that group going on pilgrimage, I see no problem with this at all. When you travel with a group, like it or not, the whole group is responsible.
If they did it by *visual* appearance as people approached, I find it irritating and inappropriate...
If they pulled the flight records and took everyone flying ex-JFK to the connection onward, and then individually allowed some passengers to fly once they determined they weren't a part of that group going on pilgrimage, I see no problem with this at all. When you travel with a group, like it or not, the whole group is responsible.
If they did it by *visual* appearance as people approached, I find it irritating and inappropriate but not antisemitic. Orthodox (particularly the ultra-orthodox) Jews are not hard to pick out of a crowd. If it was a group of Buddhist monks or Catholic nuns that completely disrupted and disrespected an entire flight for 8 hours, and then they just looked at them and banned everyone wearing the same religious garb, it wouldn't mean they were anti-Buddhist or anti-Catholic, it would mean they were trying to avoid a repeat of what had just happened.
And having flown with large groups of ultra-orthodox Jews on more than one occasion, their behavior was consistent those times as absolutely horrendous.
Correct - that is basically what I wrote above.
I have seen photos online that seem to show economy in the JFK-FRA flight. I clearly see ultra0orthodox standing near an exit. I also see typical Germanic appearance pax with chin masks, not valid as masks.
unequal enforcement of rules is not proper. Group punishment is illegal.
Unfortunately, this was not the case, in fact they called out a name of some Rosen, believing he's not Jewish, once he came forward, he lost his chance, they blocked "all jews" form boarding the connecting flight, open and gross bias. It was racial profiling at its peak. Non of the Jewish passengers were able to catch that flight, regardless of group, individual, or mask. Antisemitism by LH staff.
I have personally watched two events passing through FRA where both times the whole group was denied boarding. Both events were the same. The group of Orthodox Jews were warned multiple times to wear the masks ( masks inside airport isn’t as strict now ) and they would put on while the gate agent was there after arguments, then remove when he left. On the second visit to the group with more arguing the gate...
I have personally watched two events passing through FRA where both times the whole group was denied boarding. Both events were the same. The group of Orthodox Jews were warned multiple times to wear the masks ( masks inside airport isn’t as strict now ) and they would put on while the gate agent was there after arguments, then remove when he left. On the second visit to the group with more arguing the gate agent took the boarding passes and denied boarding to the group. Enough of this @we are above it all” attitude by the Orthodox Jews. I don’t want them on my flights if this is how they want to act. The concept they are all denied is because they have actually infected each other with their actions. You know they never consider any restrictions in and out of the airport. My colleague in NY ( Jewish but not Orthodox ) told me the Rabbis encourage no mask and the rate of Covid was high from the beginning. ( not stating as fact, only what I am told ).
And please stop with the “we saved your ass in WWII responses above. Current US actions are far from saving anyone by electing a DT that loves Puting and company but hates NATO and UN members plus holds weapons from Ukraine for his personal gain.
you’re very confused, because that’s not what the report says. people who were visibly jewish (hassidic “uniform”) were denied seats on the second flight, based purely on their appearance, not their behaviour. and not based on being part of any group booking.
that’s called “prejudice”. just like your regrettable case of tds.
I would bday much worse things to the police and Lufthansa staff there. Yes, just doing their jobs. just following orders... Disgusting Lufthansa. Will not fly with you again.
It’s doesn’t surprise me at all. Majority of Germans still subscribe to National-Socialist philosophy, and that’s why they treat everybody who is not German like that. Jews have been sworn enemies of Germans for many many years.
You should see the way ultra orthodox Jews are treated on ELAL - that is the reason they fly on LH
Don’t blame LH
I have seen first hand what religious men like these do on long haul flights.
No rules apply to them, don’t stand in their way or G-d help you. On one flight, a man dropped a book while sitting opposite me. I automatically went to pick it up for him and he almost attacked me to dare touch his book.
Don’t understand how ElAl put up with this crap every day
You can apply for a job at LH.
Hasidic Ultra Orthodox tend to keep to themselves and are isolated cutoff from the rest of society. They are well known for bizarre misbehavior when outside of the shtetl. How about teaching manners and class to your students please ? They bought this incident upon themselves. I’ve witnessed first hand Hasidics on numerous occasions trying to sneak or beg their way into first class on American transcon flights between JFK and LAX. They’ve disrupted flights...
Hasidic Ultra Orthodox tend to keep to themselves and are isolated cutoff from the rest of society. They are well known for bizarre misbehavior when outside of the shtetl. How about teaching manners and class to your students please ? They bought this incident upon themselves. I’ve witnessed first hand Hasidics on numerous occasions trying to sneak or beg their way into first class on American transcon flights between JFK and LAX. They’ve disrupted flights on other airlines such as jet blue and United.
How about everyone taking a deep breath and try flying out the next day or take a train to Budapest ? I don’t think hashem would approve of this type of behavior . Many are Trump supporters because they want what’s best for Israel and understand the value of money so that proves they are smart people and that is greatly appreciated. I’ve met some good Hassidics before. My mother once met the grand rabbi on his way to tel aviv. He blessed a bottle of water and gave it to her. I got stoned and drank it. That glatt kosher Subway on Pico Robertson was legit back in the day.
I could swear your rant is a repeat of another anti-Jew post you did. same idea for sure.
Had you read the post it stated that a LH agent clarified that the rule being enforced was ALL Jews or Jewish appearance were punished because of one or two misbehaving. That reeks of group punishment. LH also called passengers one by one to appear and be judged if they appeared to be Jewish. This resembles...
I could swear your rant is a repeat of another anti-Jew post you did. same idea for sure.
Had you read the post it stated that a LH agent clarified that the rule being enforced was ALL Jews or Jewish appearance were punished because of one or two misbehaving. That reeks of group punishment. LH also called passengers one by one to appear and be judged if they appeared to be Jewish. This resembles "selection", it is too gross to explain but google it in the context of WW2 Concentration camps.
@Moe
Anti semitism and discrimination in any form is unacceptable but let’s try to be more reasonable here.
I don’t see your comparison to WW2 concentration camps with misbehaving on an airplane , denied boarding , and a delayed trip.
Google around. When they called passengers up to board one by one and the passengers were selected to board or not by appearance, that was "selection" IN THE gERMAN WAY"
Apparently, the pilot to BUD was monitoring boarding and deciding yes or no for each pax.
@Moe You need a professional help as well as a decent legal punishment. Sadly, the two cannot be combined as they exclude each other. Sadly!
Waiting for @ESKIMOOOO to do her usual strained political contortions and attempt to link this deplorable situation with a defence of China and Russia......
Mr R Rabinowitz
What you wrote in your comment shows that you have no idea what happened in this situation. I'll refer you to the Dansdeals report linked above in the article.
The story is now linked on Drudge.
The American focus on individualism so often causes those in the United States to react very negatively to collective punishment. It is far more common in Europe. Growing up in Ireland, if one kid in class misbehaved, the whole class got punished. The idea is that when one or more people in a group misbehave, the punishment is placed on the group in order to try and push the group members to demand better future...
The American focus on individualism so often causes those in the United States to react very negatively to collective punishment. It is far more common in Europe. Growing up in Ireland, if one kid in class misbehaved, the whole class got punished. The idea is that when one or more people in a group misbehave, the punishment is placed on the group in order to try and push the group members to demand better future behavior.
In line with that also being a consideration in Germanic culture, Lufthansa likely felt right in denying the majority of the group boarding on the next flight. There were concerns about numerous passengers following safety rules, not just masking. Instead of what transpired and looks particularly bad in Germany, LH would have been better to have extended their collective punishment to ALL the passengers going to Budapest. Simply cancel the flight and find some reason that isn't covered in EU 261. No further concerns of safety for LH and no reason to accuse LH of anti-Semitism. It really would have been a lot easier, and the passengers none the wiser. Simply an internal LH matter. I've seen some European LCCs do the same when there's low passenger volume etc. Cancel and lie.
Collective punishments are forbidden pretty much everywhere in Europe and have absolutely no legal basis. You can't punish people for something they haven't done.
Non Jewish or Jewish makes no difference. You Americans are rebellious barbarians that refuse to comply with guidelines. Please keep your uneducated kind inside your borders.
Hannes, you would be correct except your Officers and DDL LH agents specifically focused and mention JEW as the determining factor. Combined with German history, go back and remain silent.
By the way, most people would rather use the word barbarian to describe GERMAN behavior in WW2, are you an uneducated barbarian that never studied this?
Finally, perhaps with comments like yours the US FAA should revoke the permission of LH to operate flights...
Hannes, you would be correct except your Officers and DDL LH agents specifically focused and mention JEW as the determining factor. Combined with German history, go back and remain silent.
By the way, most people would rather use the word barbarian to describe GERMAN behavior in WW2, are you an uneducated barbarian that never studied this?
Finally, perhaps with comments like yours the US FAA should revoke the permission of LH to operate flights to the 'barbarians" in the USA. let us see how long LH lasts.
Sir, with respect, on this day of tremendous historical importance, if these "rebellious barbarians" had stayed "inside [their] borders" in 1945, you and most of western europe would be speaking German or Russian now.........oh, I see now. Oops!
Damn straight. Lambast Americans except when in peril.
America only became involved because of Pearl Harbor.
A bit rich considering what you folks did to people you considered less than human before 1945. Maybe we should’ve done to you what we did to Japan to truly civilize you for good once and for all. Oh and if the Russians come for you next, we won’t help you.
that’s rather ironic, considering the reputation that german tourists have earned in europe, for being loud, boorish, entitled louts.
As an "Identifiably Jewish" person myself, this reminds me of a painful experience I had just over a year ago, with the same airline, in the same airport!
It was in the height of the COVID pandemic, when most countries had severe travel restrictions, and I was headed to Israel from the UK, with a stopover at Frankfurt airport.
When I approached the gate to board my connecting flight to Tel Aviv, I...
As an "Identifiably Jewish" person myself, this reminds me of a painful experience I had just over a year ago, with the same airline, in the same airport!
It was in the height of the COVID pandemic, when most countries had severe travel restrictions, and I was headed to Israel from the UK, with a stopover at Frankfurt airport.
When I approached the gate to board my connecting flight to Tel Aviv, I was informed that my family and I cannot board the flight, allegedly because Israel no longer allows travelers from the UK to enter the country.
Not only was this simply untrue, as I was able to show them on the government website, but the entire flight was full of passengers coming from the UK, and it was only us that they denied boarding...
This firsthand experience has taught me to avoid this airline for the rest of my life. I'm not the least bit surprised to hear of their behavior in this incident.
There's obviously more to this story. Germany is so ever vigilant about its history that there clearly is more going on here. There's a good chance that a bunch of people misbehaved on the plane and then played the "get out of trouble free" antisemitism card, knowing it would be extra effective in Germany.
If English isn't a person's first language, they are not going to know the ways of tap-dancing around PC issues that...
There's obviously more to this story. Germany is so ever vigilant about its history that there clearly is more going on here. There's a good chance that a bunch of people misbehaved on the plane and then played the "get out of trouble free" antisemitism card, knowing it would be extra effective in Germany.
If English isn't a person's first language, they are not going to know the ways of tap-dancing around PC issues that Americans have become used to by necessity. Most likely this person was struggling to communicate clearly.
Yes, let’s wait for the whole story to unfold first
Yep, the evidence keeps coming, backed by videos and witnesses, unfortunately the staff - or at least some of the staff were blatant antisemitic, fact.
But this doesn't mean that Germany harbors hate and bigotry, I'm sure the typical German folks are nice and decent people, and would never approve what those individual bigots had done at Lufthansa.
You’re missing the whole point of banning everybody who looks a certain way for the actions of a few,that’s blatant anti semitism,it seems like everybody is tired of hearing about the holocaust and anti semitism,too bad,when people are banned from getting on a flight for looking visibly Jewish and then it’s enforced by German police with machine guns we will remind you over and over they are acting like nazis
Strange isn’t it…a couple of months ago anyone who refused to comply with arbitrarily enforced ambiguous mask policies was a bigot. Now those who enforce the same policies in the same manner are bigots. Just shout racism and you can get away with anything these days. If they don’t want to fly with LH again, they can get a charter. EDUCATE YOURSELF
This story is appalling, the video is appalling, and some of the comments below this article are appalling.
There are plenty of people who cause all sorts of problems because of “religious reasons”, from many different religions, and plenty of people who cause problems from every nationality and race, but there’s no defence for punishing anyone because they are the same race or religion or nationality as someone else who has done something wrong. None...
This story is appalling, the video is appalling, and some of the comments below this article are appalling.
There are plenty of people who cause all sorts of problems because of “religious reasons”, from many different religions, and plenty of people who cause problems from every nationality and race, but there’s no defence for punishing anyone because they are the same race or religion or nationality as someone else who has done something wrong. None whatsoever. If there was, it would apply to every single one of us.
Unless the video is fake, it’s pretty clear cut - she says the ban applies to “Jewish people travelling from JFK”, and says that the decision was made by “upper management”. Even if she hasn’t got her facts straight, just saying what she said is enough to cause alarm and distress. Truly shocking.
Not at all the same as going to war and destroying entire countries because of the actions of a few terrorists…
@ Sassy Black Woman Precisely! Excellent comment!
I think commenters have a vary limited imagination if they can not think of ANY possible reasons why this was done. How about 1) Someone with a certain wardrobe or attire made a credible threat against the airline, the FA can’t be sure who made it, so they ban everyone with that appearance? 2) Someone with a certain appearance or wardrobe physically assaults a FA and when she turns around there are four men with...
I think commenters have a vary limited imagination if they can not think of ANY possible reasons why this was done. How about 1) Someone with a certain wardrobe or attire made a credible threat against the airline, the FA can’t be sure who made it, so they ban everyone with that appearance? 2) Someone with a certain appearance or wardrobe physically assaults a FA and when she turns around there are four men with that same wardrobe or appearance there and none admits to the act. 3) An anonymous tip is called in saying that a man with a certain wardrobe or appearance is planning a terrorist attack on the upcoming Budapest flight.
On and on…
Probable? Likely not. But please spare me the idea that there is no other possibility.
And remember Hanlon’s Razor - “Never attribute to malice that which can more adequately be explained by stupidity.”
Even if this seemingly straightforward case of racism is due to stupidity, it’s still racism
As are the comments about "Germans"
Doesn't matter. You can't punish people just for wearing certain clothes or looking like someone. That's a huge no-no in any civilised country.
They were not punished, they just got a temporary 24h ban to ensure safety of flight.
@max how exactly did banning people who were wearing masks on their previous flight ensure the safety of the onward flight?
Also @max, I guess you'd also say that we don't punish criminals. We just temporarily ban them from society for a period of years to ensure the safety of society more broadly. Did I get that right?
And what about that is not a punishment?
Well, that's a punishment.
Referring to the cops as nazis was inappropriate, but it's pathetic that he couldn't care less about people being jerked around by the airline but is deeply offended by being called a name he doesn't like.
Simple just wear a friggin’ mask and conform like the rest of us.. just ridiculous melodrama
The "melodrama" is about denying boarding to people who did exactly what you said - wearing "the friggin' mask".
The crazy thing is the non-jews on the flight, did not all wear masks covering their nose, and were not asked even once to lift it. (there are photo's to verify it)
Majority, and I mean 97% of the Jewish people were wearing their masks properly. If it slid down a bit when sleeping, the FA woke them up. They made sure that the Jewish faces were covered, but did not dare bother the...
The crazy thing is the non-jews on the flight, did not all wear masks covering their nose, and were not asked even once to lift it. (there are photo's to verify it)
Majority, and I mean 97% of the Jewish people were wearing their masks properly. If it slid down a bit when sleeping, the FA woke them up. They made sure that the Jewish faces were covered, but did not dare bother the non Jews. ( I should not say they, it was one in particular FA who was harrassing the Jewish people.)
There are photo's of non Jews unmasked noses, but no one denied boarding to all non-Jewish looking people who have a nose!!.
Whichever way you look at this, it is not what should have happened. Let us say a group of 200 African American people were on a plane, 3 people were being rude and not following the rules. Would any airline DARE deny boarding to all African American trying to board the next flight, since they all have the same or similar skin color. BTW. one guy was not dressed in the traditional jewish garb, hair style, etc.. He had no visible signs of being Jewish, he was allowed to board the next flight.
There is no more to say! It is embarassing that in 2022 people (if we can call those who called for this move people) can behave so uncivilized and low class.
I really feel bad for the Jewish People that this happened, especially with Germany's History against the Jews.
Hope to live in a world where peace and harmony can win.
The alleged behavior on this specific LH flight isn't just about mask violations, it's also that people blocked the aisles / galleys / emergency exits to pray.
Setting aside Lufthansa's actions for a moment, this is one incident in in a huge line of Ultra Orthodox misbehavior which has been documented at length: forcing women to change seats, eating during takeoff (with tray-tables down), congregating in aisles, arguing with flight crew, demanding free upgrades,...
The alleged behavior on this specific LH flight isn't just about mask violations, it's also that people blocked the aisles / galleys / emergency exits to pray.
Setting aside Lufthansa's actions for a moment, this is one incident in in a huge line of Ultra Orthodox misbehavior which has been documented at length: forcing women to change seats, eating during takeoff (with tray-tables down), congregating in aisles, arguing with flight crew, demanding free upgrades, carrying gigantic boxes for their hats that don't comply with carry-on sizing, ignoring crew instructions, aggressively pushing other passengers out of the way during boarding/landing, obstreperous in-flight behavior -- all of which has been documented at length, even by Israeli media, and I've also witnessed it myself. It's even happened on El Al, yet no one accuses El Al of anti-semitism. As a Jewish person myself, these uncouth behaviors constitute chilul hashem -- acting so immorally so as to disgrace G-d's name. Definitely not all ultra orthodox people do this, but I have personally witnessed this terrible behavior countless times from those professing to be the most devout. It does not surprise me one bit that there was cause for LH to take this drastic action. The ultra orthodox community needs to look inward and do much closer self-examination, as the entitled, "rules for thee but not for me" attitude is so rampant. I don't want to be flying with someone who ignores flight instructions, as this could lead to a major safety event, or worse yet a plane crash. I imagine this is what the captain also felt, and too bad there was no way to identify any particular involved individual, which is why I imagine LH gave a 24 hour ban to allow cooler attitudes to prevail.
We don't have enough information on this specific story. Dan's Deals gives a detailed, but unfortunately one-sided and non-objective view of this. Would need to hear from FA's, other passengers, Lufthansa, other reporting to make sense of this.
There are cameras inside the plane, everyone has an assigned seat number, and everyone has provided photo ID before boarding. It shouldn’t be that difficult.
How about banning all the morons who cause problems for everyone else for years, rather than banning everyone else who happens to share a trip on public transportation and a race or religion for 24 hours?!
"It shouldn't be that difficult" -> not difficult, but definitely time-consuming. One passenger in the linked article said he didn't even have time for the FCT, so it's unclear how LH is supposed to go through a ton of footage and reports / etc., to protect the connecting flight from bad behavior. It was a hasty decision, but without that, any number of rambunctious passengers would have been allowed to potentially jeopardize yet another flight...
"It shouldn't be that difficult" -> not difficult, but definitely time-consuming. One passenger in the linked article said he didn't even have time for the FCT, so it's unclear how LH is supposed to go through a ton of footage and reports / etc., to protect the connecting flight from bad behavior. It was a hasty decision, but without that, any number of rambunctious passengers would have been allowed to potentially jeopardize yet another flight with their own interpretation of the "rules".
Agree with you regarding banning the problematic people for years, but this sort of thing takes time, and LH took a quick decision.
There are no cameras in passenger cabins or was it a suggestion? Privacy regulations. For example in France it’s prohibited to film or take photos without consent.
Dan has reached out to Lufthansa multiple times for comments. Lufthansa, in their first go, lied and said that anyone who wasn't allowed to board the onward flight was denied because they weren't wearing a mask which was patently false.
They have since said they are investigating it once more facts came to light. If Lufthansa has any defense here we should see it shortly.
But there is literally a video of a...
Dan has reached out to Lufthansa multiple times for comments. Lufthansa, in their first go, lied and said that anyone who wasn't allowed to board the onward flight was denied because they weren't wearing a mask which was patently false.
They have since said they are investigating it once more facts came to light. If Lufthansa has any defense here we should see it shortly.
But there is literally a video of a Lufthansa employee telling the passenger that they are punishing all Jews for the behavior of a few. So the notion that Dan's report is one-sided or biased is nothing short of absurd. It's well sourced and Lufthansa has been given multiple chances to respond.
Sorry, had Dan himself been on this flight, due to his membership in this community, he also would have been prevented from connecting to Budapest: this creates an overwhelming bias that is nearly impossible to overcome. Moreover, it's clear how irate Dan feels about this with the information he received, he has been commenting on travel blogs everywhere, pushing this story everywhere. The lack of objectivity tarnishes the story.
There aren't any reports from other...
Sorry, had Dan himself been on this flight, due to his membership in this community, he also would have been prevented from connecting to Budapest: this creates an overwhelming bias that is nearly impossible to overcome. Moreover, it's clear how irate Dan feels about this with the information he received, he has been commenting on travel blogs everywhere, pushing this story everywhere. The lack of objectivity tarnishes the story.
There aren't any reports from other passengers. Plus, hyperbolic comments like, "it was the fastest pushback this passenger has ever seen" -- compared to what? Is this passenger some kind of authority on plane pushback times? Perhaps it was a normal pushback time because there wasn't any rule-breaking?
Further information is necessary.
You are the problem. yes, I wrote that because in the logic of LH you, having admitted to being a Jew, are the problem. Civilized people call that discrimination or illegal group punishment.
For the record, DansDeals sat on this story a while because he does not want to be reactionary and jump in before all facts are clear. The video of the LH gate agent clinches the deal. So much so it was removed from YouTube and reactivated.
Im not of Jewish faith but you damm well sound like a self hating Jew. Shame.
Are you are a troll hired by Lufthansa? I doubt you are Jewish, although you claim to be so. You are just using this as a license to post slander and false claims against orthodox Jews. Your post is full of grievance and hate against people that are not exactly like you. You are the problem.
Thank you for your very well detailed insight
@R Rabinowitz "all of which has been documented at length, even by Israeli media"
You mean predominantly by the Israeli media. They go out of their way to highlight each and every wrong doing of visibly Orthodox Jews to paint a larger picture of the Orthodox not following rules while writing off similar actions by others as exceptions. Meanwhile visibly Orthodox Jews like myself will be extra careful to follow the rules vigilantly so...
@R Rabinowitz "all of which has been documented at length, even by Israeli media"
You mean predominantly by the Israeli media. They go out of their way to highlight each and every wrong doing of visibly Orthodox Jews to paint a larger picture of the Orthodox not following rules while writing off similar actions by others as exceptions. Meanwhile visibly Orthodox Jews like myself will be extra careful to follow the rules vigilantly so we don't get bothered by bigots like you but apparently that didn't help over here as LH decided to collectively punish all visibly Orthodox Jews regardless of their compliance on the previous flight.
I only wonder if you would have reacted similarly had LH banned all black people due the non compliance of a few on the previous flight...
Appreciated this insight!
What’s also clearly at issue here is the FA to passenger ratio wasn’t sufficient to police the behaviour of a whole group of rule breaking passengers. A lot of people are assuming without justification that it was just one or two passengers. What if it was 20 or 30? What if they ignored the instructions of the crew to remain masked? What if they didn’t - as a group/community - help the...
Appreciated this insight!
What’s also clearly at issue here is the FA to passenger ratio wasn’t sufficient to police the behaviour of a whole group of rule breaking passengers. A lot of people are assuming without justification that it was just one or two passengers. What if it was 20 or 30? What if they ignored the instructions of the crew to remain masked? What if they didn’t - as a group/community - help the FA’s to reinforce the rules amongst their travel companions? I’m not saying that anyone is responsible for the actions of others, but if we give the flight crew some benefit of the doubt, they could have just struggled to keep tabs on who was causing a disturbance and breaking the rules and who wasn’t. In that case, should they have simply let everybody board the next flight? Canceled the flight altogether? It seems to me that no option is without potential consequences…
It seems as though the Sassy Black Woman is jumping in to malign the Jews. So typical!
LH has procedures for everything. Had there been a mass issue on board the ex-JFK flight (LH401) the flight would have been met by Police.
Are you suggesting that if several Black passengers become an issue that all Black people should be punished? That is basically the parallel to what seems to have happened here.
LH gate agents at FRA are known for attitude.
Would your opinion be the same if the passengers would have all been black instead of Jewish?
So ,this isn't about Jewish people, but about a particular sect of Jewish people ? So this is always the issue... we always see the loud American or the loud Russian ,but never even notice the quiet ,polite people no matter what their religion or race... they remain largely invisible. It gets very hard to predict a person's behaviour simply based on their appearance, but we can get a statistical probability, and that is about...
So ,this isn't about Jewish people, but about a particular sect of Jewish people ? So this is always the issue... we always see the loud American or the loud Russian ,but never even notice the quiet ,polite people no matter what their religion or race... they remain largely invisible. It gets very hard to predict a person's behaviour simply based on their appearance, but we can get a statistical probability, and that is about it. I suspect that the issue is that the rules are not made clear enough and the policy of what is the consequence of non-compliance.
Excellent comment. I have also suffered on flights where these actions are on full display.
@Ben please remove this hatred post as this is just utter disgusting racism against orthodox Jews.
You do have a point, as I too experianced such behavior emanating from Hassidic people. I would add two points. 1- in no way can we justify penalizing or blaming a group based on the action of some. 2- "huge line of Ultra Orthodox misbehavior". Lets be crystal clear. This is not a ultra Orthodox problem. It is however a Hassidic problem. They have very different appproaches to life and we dare not equate them....
You do have a point, as I too experianced such behavior emanating from Hassidic people. I would add two points. 1- in no way can we justify penalizing or blaming a group based on the action of some. 2- "huge line of Ultra Orthodox misbehavior". Lets be crystal clear. This is not a ultra Orthodox problem. It is however a Hassidic problem. They have very different appproaches to life and we dare not equate them. The ultra Orthodox are tought, at length the importance of conducting life with ethics and morals. It is the Hassiddic who have the "no rules" mentality.
Please STOP this hatred nonsense.
I would not attempt to defend the indefensible and "Ordnung muß sein" is a factor here. However, we have 2 further pieces of context which will help: 1) Is this incident anti-Semitic? If you answered no, view the video at https://twitter.com/DansDeals/status/1523634922187288576 2) Is it deliberately anti-Semitic? That's 50/50. Frankfurt is among the most progressive cities in Europe and the world. This order came for Berlin, I guarantee it, and here's how I know: Germany's domestic...
I would not attempt to defend the indefensible and "Ordnung muß sein" is a factor here. However, we have 2 further pieces of context which will help: 1) Is this incident anti-Semitic? If you answered no, view the video at https://twitter.com/DansDeals/status/1523634922187288576 2) Is it deliberately anti-Semitic? That's 50/50. Frankfurt is among the most progressive cities in Europe and the world. This order came for Berlin, I guarantee it, and here's how I know: Germany's domestic quarantine rules are almost as strict today as they were at the same time in 2020. My sister converted to Judaism for marriage and my wife is a German national who has been home twice during the pandemic and is about to return in order to visit her parents who are in their dotage. My wife's parents live in a rural area outside Frankfurt and she journeys from the airport by rail. During the pandemic, the enforcement of the mask mandate has been so strict by national edict that rail conductors do a ticket and mask check with armed escort. Imagine that on Amtrack or British Rail! Some idiot in Lufthansa management took things way too far, inexcusably retained that same attitude of "Ordnung muß sein" and turned it into anyone wearing a yarmulke or prayer shawl - in the same country which, just last week, formally dropped its opposition to an embargo on Russian oil shipments, shipments originating in a country which is perpetrating the largest Jewish diaspora since the Holocaust! When frequent flyers in the United States and Great Britain bemoan the fact that legacy carriers in the United States received a much larger pandemic bailout than Lufthansa, they should look at this P.R. disaster as proof that everything in capitalism, even anti-Semitism, is proportional.
After reading DanDeals, this is a terrible situation. However, I tend to discount witness statements somewhat (even multiple ones). I've flown a lot and seen lots of issues. Passengers always say they were compliant.
I have a feeling there were more than a "few" issues. It's probably somewhere between what the witnesses state and what the cabin crew told the captain...which to me is the key:
1. What did the cabin crew on the...
After reading DanDeals, this is a terrible situation. However, I tend to discount witness statements somewhat (even multiple ones). I've flown a lot and seen lots of issues. Passengers always say they were compliant.
I have a feeling there were more than a "few" issues. It's probably somewhere between what the witnesses state and what the cabin crew told the captain...which to me is the key:
1. What did the cabin crew on the JFK - FRA flight tell the captain (it was obviously disturbing enough for the captain to make an announcement mid-flight).
2. Did the captain on the JFK-FRA flight contact FRA on the situation? If so, what did the captain say? IMO, given the response at FRA, something was radioed ahead.
3. What information did the captain of the FRA-BUD flight receive? The captain can only go by information received, since he/she was not on the flight.
Absent anything to the contrary, I think the captain of the FRA-BUD flight and the gate crew were in the worst situation. The captain had to make a decision based on the information available, probably with a lot of pressure to get a flight departed on time. The gate crew then had to be the ones to do the dirty work (i.e. - deny boarding, etc.).
My bet is the cabin crew on the JFK-FRA flight overdramatized what they told the captain.
According to reports, the Captain of the BUD flight eyeballed each passenger and decided if they would fly or not. Historically this was called selection and it is too upsetting to explain.
Now that is a different story if true. Based on DansDeal, that would seem unlikely because according to witnesses, the gate agents were calling individuals to board. There was no mention of the captain visually inspecting people...but then, new things come out every hour.
I wonder what those pax singled out did wrong to have caused this situation. Then quickly blame the airline and brand it racism. People aren’t denied boarding easily.
what happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" you are assuming a lot based on some allegations. There is a history of articles on this site taking the side of accusers, without all the evidence at hand.
There is literally a video of the agent saying it was Jews who made the mess so all Jews will be barred from the flight. Not sure what other evidence u need.
But what about non-Orthodox Jews? How were they barred from the flight?
Further proof that mask mandates are bad for humanity. Why is it that masks are still mandated anyway? Seems rather anti science, isn't it? Cloth and surgical masks have been proven to do absolutely nothing, it's purely virtue signaling. Ask yourself, if masks worked, then why did covid continue to spread throughout the world for 2 years despite widespread mask mandates?
I refuse to do business with any company, or country, that tells me I...
Further proof that mask mandates are bad for humanity. Why is it that masks are still mandated anyway? Seems rather anti science, isn't it? Cloth and surgical masks have been proven to do absolutely nothing, it's purely virtue signaling. Ask yourself, if masks worked, then why did covid continue to spread throughout the world for 2 years despite widespread mask mandates?
I refuse to do business with any company, or country, that tells me I need to inhibit my breathing. Go pound sand, Germany, ich muss atmen.
LOL, ¨proven to do absolutely nothing¨. I am a doctor but not a surgeon. I will make sure to pass along to my surgeon colleagues that there is no need for them to wear a mask next time they have a surgery.
Try breathing out smoke whilst wearing a mask, then compare it to breathing out smoke without wearing a mask. You might notice quite a substantial difference in how far the smoke travels away from your mouth/nose. Or maybe you’re not wearing the mask properly. Or maybe you stoopid.
"then why did covid continue to spread throughout the world for 2 years despite widespread mask mandates?"
Because too many people like you ignored and flaunted the mask mandate at every possible chance?
I do not want to defend Lufthansa, but I'm almost 100% sure that this has nothing to do with the PAX being Jewish. It could have happened to a group of Rugby Players or a Choir group. They were mishandling THE GROUP and not the religious affiliation. Lufthansa staff Lufthansa staff may not be able to provide basic services, but I really doubt they are racist.
Why were they a "group" because they all are dressed similar? would you call all black people on a flight a group? They didn't book together, they likely didn't know each other. You are lumping them all together the same way the airline did.
There is a HUGE difference, that I have no desire to argue on here with you.
I see what Gustav is saying.
Orthodox Jews mostly all dress in a way that is instantly recognizable. More than likely the ban was only meant for them- the LH official probably failed to differentiate - said one thing, meant another. Not good and highly inflammable but I could certainly understand the issue behind the ban. They may have not "booked together" but I too have been on a flight with orthodox Jews that were not particularly responsive to airline staff...
Orthodox Jews mostly all dress in a way that is instantly recognizable. More than likely the ban was only meant for them- the LH official probably failed to differentiate - said one thing, meant another. Not good and highly inflammable but I could certainly understand the issue behind the ban. They may have not "booked together" but I too have been on a flight with orthodox Jews that were not particularly responsive to airline staff requests. They also have a history of lack of conformity (refusal to wear masks, defying anti-gathering laws etc) during the pandemic in Israel itself. When one is chastised they ALL get involved -. that has nothing to do with whether they booked their tickets together or not. I might add I am Jewish and live in Germany and have experienced awful behaviour by ultra religious Jews at airports and on my many flights to Tel Aviv,
Some travelled on award tickets, the pax were lumped together ONLY based on surmised religion.
No, most probably based on what they were wearing - people who dress as Orthodox Jews do are immediately recognizable and those dressed as such are all Jews. Many Jews do not fit into that criteria grid - I am sure they would have been able to board without problems. The issue most probably lay with how the ban was phrased and not how it was implemented
There is a video where the LH staff member says it is “Jewish people from JFK” that have been banned for 24 hours, which seemingly indicates that it was in fact because they were Jewish (and travelling from JFK), ie if they were travelling from JFK and weren’t Jewish, they weren’t banned. Unfortunately, there is no law against discrimination on the grounds of sporting preferences or singing ability. But there certainly is a law against...
There is a video where the LH staff member says it is “Jewish people from JFK” that have been banned for 24 hours, which seemingly indicates that it was in fact because they were Jewish (and travelling from JFK), ie if they were travelling from JFK and weren’t Jewish, they weren’t banned. Unfortunately, there is no law against discrimination on the grounds of sporting preferences or singing ability. But there certainly is a law against discrimination on the grounds of race and/or religion.
"ie if they were travelling from JFK and weren’t Jewish"
Were Jewish people from other destination (or originating in FRA) barred as well?
This is reprehensible. There is no basis for this. Zealotry and racism at its finest. Lufthansa should pay a heavy price. It is time to make it easier to challenge the so-called authority of cabin crews and airport personnel right then and there when this type of behavior occurs in the name of whatever they want to call it. Sometimes people are just plain wrong, need to know it, and passengers MUST be in a...
This is reprehensible. There is no basis for this. Zealotry and racism at its finest. Lufthansa should pay a heavy price. It is time to make it easier to challenge the so-called authority of cabin crews and airport personnel right then and there when this type of behavior occurs in the name of whatever they want to call it. Sometimes people are just plain wrong, need to know it, and passengers MUST be in a position where they are both comfortable with challenging it and capable of having these decisions reversed. We have seen all too often what happens when you let these incompetent and malicious airport kings and queens have even an inch of power.
Personally, I take this as an international incident that requires diplomatic intervention. It sounds like these individuals were essentially trapped in Germany, a third-country. I'd like to know how Lufthansa and/or the German government housed and fed them for those 24 hours.
What an absolutely delusional comment. Rules regarding unruly and disruptive passengers are very strict for good reason, with passengers behaving more and more irrational. If even just 20% of this group of 130+ travellers behaved disruptively, by actively not following the mask mandate and crew instructions, that is already an insane amount and absolutely should be followed up by law enforcement. This wouldn't even be up for discussions if this was 130 drunk floridians. You're...
What an absolutely delusional comment. Rules regarding unruly and disruptive passengers are very strict for good reason, with passengers behaving more and more irrational. If even just 20% of this group of 130+ travellers behaved disruptively, by actively not following the mask mandate and crew instructions, that is already an insane amount and absolutely should be followed up by law enforcement. This wouldn't even be up for discussions if this was 130 drunk floridians. You're not gonna be exempted from the law because you're an ultra-orthodox jew non-complying with aviation and health regulations either. So stop with the victim complex already.
The issue is not those that were non compliant.
The issue was that hundreds others were falsely linked to the group by sharing similar religion or mode of dress. That reeks of group punishment. There is video of a gate agent stating that all must suffer for the actions of a few.
While many travelers looked the same they were ticketed in different ways, including a large amount in paid and award business...
The issue is not those that were non compliant.
The issue was that hundreds others were falsely linked to the group by sharing similar religion or mode of dress. That reeks of group punishment. There is video of a gate agent stating that all must suffer for the actions of a few.
While many travelers looked the same they were ticketed in different ways, including a large amount in paid and award business and first, The latter were oblivious to anything happening on the flight and cabin crew in first was unmasked.
Do we know how many of these up to 170 passengers behaved disruptively? Because again even if it was just 20%, that is already 34 disruptive passengers. I doubt the flight crew, security personnel and ground handling agents are somehow all jew-hating anti-semites. If you think about this logically, then there was most likely a group of orthodox jews sitting next or close to each other, many of which behaved disruptively. Given the sheer numbers,...
Do we know how many of these up to 170 passengers behaved disruptively? Because again even if it was just 20%, that is already 34 disruptive passengers. I doubt the flight crew, security personnel and ground handling agents are somehow all jew-hating anti-semites. If you think about this logically, then there was most likely a group of orthodox jews sitting next or close to each other, many of which behaved disruptively. Given the sheer numbers, and the fact that they were of the same 2 travel groups, I would assume that the flight crew was not able to identify every single disruptive person (if they do not comply with your orders, are they going to tell you their real name? Can you just assume they are sitting on their own seat as per the flight manifest?) but saw this as one or two travel groups that behaved disruptively as a group and thus was barred as a group. If that group was orthodox jews, who are clearly visible by their attire, then that is the group they are going to stop. If it was a group of 170 football fans all wearing the same jersey, and 30% of them behaved disruptively, with no realistic opportunity of clearly identifying every single one of them in-flight, would you just let them endanger the health and flight safety on the next flight?
As for the comments of the ground staff, in my own experience those are indeed usually low-paid workers, both not very intelligent and also often of ethnic backgrounds where jews are usually not viewed favorably. So I could well see a mixture of antisemitism and power hungriness among that ground staff. But the flight crew and police? Yeah no.
So would all black people on a flight be a "group" that was traveling together? These people likely didn't know each other and they certainly didn't book together. Because they dress similar they should be punished for what the other one does? sounds like a real healthy mindset.
Great to see that airlines who insist on mask requirements have problems. Get a life and get back to normal guys.
Some people believe in science.
You can say that again. Can we get back to normal folks?? Wake up and smell the roses! COVID is mostly gone. The only thing left behind is ugly fighting.
It's crazy how it has become a symbol of "I listen to the rules" and something to bicker about.
These masks should go back to medical personnel.
Here in South Africa it is on the rampage. Enjoy your upcoming winter!!
Truly sickening
This should be all over MSM.
Like with the last manufactured fake outrage of a Jew in Germany?
Gil Ofarim who wrongly accused Westin Leipzig of antisemitism a few weeks back is now facing a severe punishment for wrong accusations and likely has to pay significant compensation.
Just because someone can manufacture a big social media outcry doesn’t mean that person/group is right.
And by calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you ‚Nazi‘, you actually devalue the meaning of this...
Like with the last manufactured fake outrage of a Jew in Germany?
Gil Ofarim who wrongly accused Westin Leipzig of antisemitism a few weeks back is now facing a severe punishment for wrong accusations and likely has to pay significant compensation.
Just because someone can manufacture a big social media outcry doesn’t mean that person/group is right.
And by calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you ‚Nazi‘, you actually devalue the meaning of this word and help the actual ones.
exactly. Some people love to play the victim, or worse - make up fake instances of them being discriminated. Gil Ofarim should be in jail for libel and slander.
The Gil Ofarim case is granted. Fact is these people were denied their continuing flight and there is video of a LH agent stating they were all being punished. I would say LH is unlikely to end up being the correct party here.
I don't know whether the police officer was a nazi. BUT given the history there should be an extreme sensitivity in Germany to singling out Jews. Imagine if there was a group of African Americans that were told to go to the "back of the bus or get off" for even a valid reason.
The real fireworks will begin in the USA!
I expect investigations by the FAA as well as the Attorney General of New York, The aggrieved lived in NY, the flight operated from NY. LH operates in airports jointly operated by NY and NJ. Decades ago BA arrested a Jew flying to Israel for praying at LHR in an area reserved for passengers to the "middle east", a term that meant to exclude Israel. The...
The real fireworks will begin in the USA!
I expect investigations by the FAA as well as the Attorney General of New York, The aggrieved lived in NY, the flight operated from NY. LH operates in airports jointly operated by NY and NJ. Decades ago BA arrested a Jew flying to Israel for praying at LHR in an area reserved for passengers to the "middle east", a term that meant to exclude Israel. The aforementioned was an Attorney working for New York State and his arrest was a big mistake.
1) Lodge your objectionbby not flying Lufthansa
2) Those barred from teh flight should file a calss action lawsuit
3) Do not accept the inevitable corporate apology to come -- they hate you anyway, so let them at least fear what you can do to their bottom line
4) imagine had 3 or 4 African American passengers not complied with mask requirements, and they barred all blacks from the flight - the airline would already be in bankruptcy!
NO, Not enough.
There need to be major repercussions so LH and other firms realize the danger of discriminating. I would expect a threat to their right to use airports in the USA or at least JFK and EWR.
It's interesting to see so many people withholding judgment until they learn more after Dan wrote up a comprehensive story after extensive reporting and interviews with dozens. Plus there is photo and video evidence to back up his claims.
Contrasting this attitude to the comment threads on stories of when one or two Chassidic Jews did something crazy on a plane, like not sitting next to a woman, suffice to say, this "wait to hear...
It's interesting to see so many people withholding judgment until they learn more after Dan wrote up a comprehensive story after extensive reporting and interviews with dozens. Plus there is photo and video evidence to back up his claims.
Contrasting this attitude to the comment threads on stories of when one or two Chassidic Jews did something crazy on a plane, like not sitting next to a woman, suffice to say, this "wait to hear the facts and not rush to judge" attitude is new.
Maybe, just maybe people have learned from the last social media outcry of a Jew in Germany who wrongfully accused Westin Leipzig of antisemitism.
The case took a 180 turn when the surveillance video was published.
Here is one video: https://twitter.com/DansDeals/status/1523690865515925505
The Dansdeals post has a bunch more, along with interviews of more than a dozen passengers. This isn't one person making a claim.
No show how these people behaved onboard the JFK-FRA flight prior.
There will be a reason LH has banned them for 24h.
by "these people" you mean all 170 people that were banned from the flight or do you mean a few indiviuals that look like the rest of "these people" had a reason to be banned? I highly doubt they had a reason for banning all 170 of them.
Well if they were booked together on group bookings, we’re uncooperative with the flight attendants and not sitting on their assigned seats (switching is common in big groups), how would they identify the individuals?
If not possible, better to ban the whole group.
But they were no booked together. They happened to be taking the same flights to a specific destination with a time sensitive deadline.
They did not book together! only thing these guys had in common is being visibly Jewish
You can see the video YouTube removed here:
https://twitter.com/DansDeals/status/1523634922187288576
Honestly I hate calling people “nazis” because of how ridiculously overused it has become. However: a German police officer “Just following orders” and discriminating against Jews … is a pretty solid use case for the word. I’m sure he didn’t like it, but perhaps that should’ve been cause for introspection and not doubling down?
The police officers have just enforced Lufthansa‘s no-fly list. Can’t expect a low rank police officer to individually judge 130+ passengers for their suitability to fly peacefully.
Criticism should be directed at Lufthansa for coming up with this list, all the offenders who is hinted masking rules on first flight or at German government for having stupid mal rules.
“Just doing their job,” huh?
As a police officer, how do you cause more harm?
A) Letting the dangerous persons from the no fly list onboard the flight, where they can cause significant problems up in the air, just because you are afraid of the social media mob.
B) Enforcing the no fly list (people where just banned for 24h anyway), if it’s wrong it can easily be resolved peacefully.
"Just following orders" is the excuse practically every Nazi used for his actions during WWII.
Now all the European readers here can stop for a moment with their comments about racist, violent, America and take a look at themselves - as they should. It's a problem everywhere.
This is pretty shocking. So much so that I am wondering if there is more to the story or a variation of the narrative? While anti-semitism is quite a thing throughout Europe I still imagine that in Germany, a country with such...
Now all the European readers here can stop for a moment with their comments about racist, violent, America and take a look at themselves - as they should. It's a problem everywhere.
This is pretty shocking. So much so that I am wondering if there is more to the story or a variation of the narrative? While anti-semitism is quite a thing throughout Europe I still imagine that in Germany, a country with such strong and enforced laws against such, that this would happen so blatantly and out in the open.
Lufthansa best be hiring a cleaner to fix this problem and communicate a message and worldwide sensitivity training. That gate agent, wow, talk about being clueless in how to address this to passengers. This is going to become a bigger story than appearing in points blogs if true.
Easy: Vig group booking, lots of offenders in this group, whole group gets on the no fly list for 24h, police assists airline to enforce no fly list.
Airlines are required to have such no fly lists to ensure safe flights.
No, from more than a dozen first hand reports, there were a few offenders, both Jewish and non-Jewish.
There were 2 groups of Jews and dozens of other Jews that booked on their own. Only the Jews were barred from flying Lufthansa and it included those in the groups and those not part of any groups, even if they wore a mask for the duration of the flight without warning.
There were plenty of Jewish people on the flight who booked their own flights. Even the two big groups seem less like organized groups than simply customers of two travel agents who operated like consolidators on this flight knowing it would have a lot of demand from the orthodox and hassidic communities. It's more equivalent to people buying tickets for the hajj from the same travel agent than a tour group traveling as one unit.
Regardless of behavior of the pax, if the LH employee used the word Jew, that's crossing a line! Especially given they are the German flag carrier! They should have just said "non-mask wearing pax" and leave religion out of it!
It was a 10 bucks/hr minimum wage job idiot with very basic English skills in a highly tense situation. No need to interpret anything into what that guy said.
Max - PR for Lufthansa
@Moe
I don’t like them, Airberlin was the better German airline.
Only good things about Lufthansa are first class terminal and MUC as best hub in Europe.
Otherwise I’d vastly prefer to take Middle eastern/Asian airlines wherever possible.
They were banned for 24 hours. That sure sounds like higher-ups. The captain can’t make such a call, can he ?
Shame on LH.
Yes, Captains can decide to deny boarding to passengers. Of course, the airline can decide to remove the Captain when they abuse that authority, but the Captain is the final authority on safety of the flight on every airline everywhere. If the Captain says you don't board, you don't board.
(And, to be clear, no, I'm not defending that decision having been made in this case at all, just saying that Captain does indeed have the authority to deny boarding.)
But captains can only deny boarding to passengers on their own flights. Many people tried to rebook on other Lufthansa flights to BUD or VIE and were unable to do so. That type of 24 hour ban would have had to come from Lufthansa itself.
In the video, the LH staff member says that “upper management” had decided to ban “Jewish people from JFK” for 24 hours
We will have to wait to see, but wouldn’t be surprised if everyone connecting off that JFK flight was banned from the following flight, not based on their religion but on their place of origin.
No, non-Jews from the JFK flight were witnessed boarding other flights, including the flight to BUD.
Zero non-Jews reported getting a 24 flight ban.
Thanks for clarifying this detail. It wasn't really clear from the article here on OMAAT whether it was just the Jewish-looking people from the flight that were banned from connecting or actually everyone connecting from the JFK flight to the BUD one. Granted, either way would be bad, one is just worse and more obviously illegal.
Well, on the plus side, if zillions of people cancel or move their business elsewhere, award space should be plentiful for LH for quite some time.
Cloud, silver lining, etc.
In this case weren’t all the Jewish passengers booked together as part of a tour? How many times have an entire travel group been removed because of infractions of several members of that group?
Such a knee jerk reaction to say Jewish/non-Jewish, but it could very well have been tour group/ not tour group.
Can we wait for more information?
No that were not. Many had booked for the same reason, some from the same travel agency, but there was no tour, or connection between the passengers, other than being Jewish
You should read the dansdeal post, there is plenty of information and first hand accounts of what happened over there. Had you read that post (or this one), you would have read that both individuals in the tour group, and not in the tour group, were denied boarding on the onward flight
Even if true, the gate agent has no idea how individual customers booked their tickets. As far as booking direct, travel portal, cash vs miles, etc.
It does seem as though a couple of groups all booked through the same agents so it's likely each agent bought a large number of tickets at discount and sold them for this flight, but that's not the same as being in a tour group. Furthermore, it seems like there were also plenty of travelers going from JFK-BUD that booked their flights on their own that also were denied boarding on the FRA-BUD flight.
...It does seem as though a couple of groups all booked through the same agents so it's likely each agent bought a large number of tickets at discount and sold them for this flight, but that's not the same as being in a tour group. Furthermore, it seems like there were also plenty of travelers going from JFK-BUD that booked their flights on their own that also were denied boarding on the FRA-BUD flight.
So this was not like a situation where a group traveling together (or a subset of that group) misbehaves and the airline punishes the whole group, this was just almost everyone from the JFK-FRA flight who looked like an orthodox or hassidic Jew (which seems to have been most, if not all, of the people who "looked" Jewish) was banned from the FRA-BUD flight.
Also to those who say that Lufthansa might have innocently assumed they were all part of the same group that's BS because they should have known better to assume that (especially since there were both orthodox and hassidic jews heading to BUD and they do not dress the same) and they clearly should have been able to determine that was not the case by looking at the manifest and how the tickets were purchased (if it got high enough up the chain to ban them from traveling for 24 hours, then it definitely got high enough up the chain for someone to have access to that information). This was pretty horrible on Lufthansa's part and I hope everyone gets duly compensated.
Disgusting. Now I understand why my Grandfather banned us from ever travelling to or through Germany. He didn't want his descendants to ever be at the mercy of the offspring of the people who killed his parents (Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen)
Meh, why stop there? ...may as well blacklist FCO, CAI, ATH, IST, and ya know, just about that entire quarter of the planet; seeing as they've all attempted the same, in one era or another.
I'd like to know more about this incident before passing judgement. I've had a quick look at the reports online (just a few as yet, no major news outlets) and it appears that these were ALL men, something Ben doesn't mention. A large group of around 100 men were all praying before boarding, and this seems to have been a factor. Also, not all were banned, about 50 were allowed to board to Budapest. Imagine...
I'd like to know more about this incident before passing judgement. I've had a quick look at the reports online (just a few as yet, no major news outlets) and it appears that these were ALL men, something Ben doesn't mention. A large group of around 100 men were all praying before boarding, and this seems to have been a factor. Also, not all were banned, about 50 were allowed to board to Budapest. Imagine if 150 Muslim men, NO women, were all praying loudly before a flight. Americans would run screaming in all directions. I think this may have been more of a public order issue. Airlines have been known to do this before with for example a bunch of football fans travelling together - not all are hooligans but they are often tarred with the same brush. Just because the police were German and the male passengers Jewish doesn't not mean you are entitled to scream Nazi.
I watched the videos, there were women that weren't allowed to board.
Ben probably doesn't mention it because, even if it were true, it would be completely irrelevant... And groups of Muslim men travel together in the U.S. all the time... And, no, you're not allowed to discriminate against them for praying together. Good grief.
I think Lufthansa is in the wrong for denying boarding to all passengers of a certain group. But, I don’t like that some communities use any possible semblance of antisemitism to remind everyone of Germany and the holocaust. It’s not appropriate.
Sorry but if a bunch of Germans (with large guns for that matter) are discriminating against a group of Jews simply for being Jewish (not for mask compliance because that was only a few people, not everyone of that religion) then THEY are the ones reminding everyone of their dark past.
"Some communities" do not do that—at least not entire Jewish communities. Mass generalizations like that are part of the problem of antisemitism.
Some *individuals* did apparently use the term Nazi in anger, in this case. Most Jews would disagree with its use in this context (but then, most Jews were not there in that situation, speaking in the heat of the moment).
Like all human beings, some Jewish people are more articulate or...
"Some communities" do not do that—at least not entire Jewish communities. Mass generalizations like that are part of the problem of antisemitism.
Some *individuals* did apparently use the term Nazi in anger, in this case. Most Jews would disagree with its use in this context (but then, most Jews were not there in that situation, speaking in the heat of the moment).
Like all human beings, some Jewish people are more articulate or more choosy with their words even when angry, than others.
Even then, it is noteworthy that the German police seemed far more offended to have been called Nazi's than to have seen Jews being subjected to collective punishment by LH staff.
Did you see the news reports from the Haredi areas of Israel during Corona, when dozens of individuals were screaming 'Nazi' at our hard-working soldiers & police who were there to enforce the law & protect people (and spitting on them)?
It's disgusting how 'Nazi' is trotted out by a certain group of people, with monotonous regularity, if they don't agree with the actions of others. It tarnishes the memories of those actually lost...
Did you see the news reports from the Haredi areas of Israel during Corona, when dozens of individuals were screaming 'Nazi' at our hard-working soldiers & police who were there to enforce the law & protect people (and spitting on them)?
It's disgusting how 'Nazi' is trotted out by a certain group of people, with monotonous regularity, if they don't agree with the actions of others. It tarnishes the memories of those actually lost in the Holocaust.
Have you seen footage of Haredim on planes causing all sorts of disturbances by refusing to sit in certain areas ie next to women, or getting up & praying when the safety of all dictates they should sit?
If I was a pilot or head of cabin crew, I wouldn't want to be having to deal with that kind of nonsense.
While what you report may have been true it has zero connection to this incident.
Haredim people are not reported to have done disturbances on this flight, other than some non maskers which included Cabin Crew.
None of the aforementioned excuses banning an entire religion from boarding!!!
yes, the term NAZI is legitimate when Jews are again being mistreated bu German uniformed Police waving guns. While using the term is against the...
While what you report may have been true it has zero connection to this incident.
Haredim people are not reported to have done disturbances on this flight, other than some non maskers which included Cabin Crew.
None of the aforementioned excuses banning an entire religion from boarding!!!
yes, the term NAZI is legitimate when Jews are again being mistreated bu German uniformed Police waving guns. While using the term is against the law in Germany I suspect a lawyer would help win against any charges.
Why?! It's completely common and reasonable to deny/ban a party when a member of that party misbehaves. What's most likely happened here is that LH simply banned all tickets issued by a single (or several) ticketing agents. Surely, no one had the time or energy to look at each pax faith or what clothes they wore.
Except that's not what happened as there were plenty of people denied boarding who bought their own tickets. It seems that the discrimination was likely based on clothing as, based on accounts, those who dressed like Haredim and even some Orthodox Jews who wore yarmulkes but otherwise dressed in contemporary western outfits were denied boarding.
Even if it was as you describe, these weren't tour groups. They were just people who bought tickets from...
Except that's not what happened as there were plenty of people denied boarding who bought their own tickets. It seems that the discrimination was likely based on clothing as, based on accounts, those who dressed like Haredim and even some Orthodox Jews who wore yarmulkes but otherwise dressed in contemporary western outfits were denied boarding.
Even if it was as you describe, these weren't tour groups. They were just people who bought tickets from the same travel agent who likely bought the tickets in advance as a consolidator knowing this pilgrimage happens every year. Furthermore, it seems like Lufthansa made the decision based on a few Haredim acting out, without even confirming how they bought their ticket. It would be like denying boarding to all Muslim passengers connecting to a flight to Jeddah during the Hajj based on the misbehavior of a few Muslim passengers on the inbound flight. I don't know how the laws in Germany compare to the laws in the US (where it definitely would be illegal), but I imagine, especially when it comes to discrimination against Jews, this was not legal.
Wrong. There are reports and video of pax at the BUD flight being paged one at a time and selected for flying or rejected based on garb.
The charge that whole Jewish community "use any possible semblance of antisemitism to remind everyone of Germany and the Holocaust…" is wildly untrue, offensive, and essentially antisemitic on so many levels. Typically that charge emanates from people who "are sick and tired of hearing about the Holocaust"—because they're antisemitic.
It's a fact, though, that Leftists & Palestinians are very apt to fling that epithet at JEWS—for no other reason than to offend; certainly none...
The charge that whole Jewish community "use any possible semblance of antisemitism to remind everyone of Germany and the Holocaust…" is wildly untrue, offensive, and essentially antisemitic on so many levels. Typically that charge emanates from people who "are sick and tired of hearing about the Holocaust"—because they're antisemitic.
It's a fact, though, that Leftists & Palestinians are very apt to fling that epithet at JEWS—for no other reason than to offend; certainly none of their grievances against Israel lend any rational basis to Nazi comparisons.
And that IS very inappropriate.
If you don't want to be reminded of the holocaust then maybe don't impose collective punishment on a group of Jews traveling through Germany. Just a thought.
absolutely sickening! I hope they get their ass sued to millions and they own up and apologize
Yeah, I hope they get sued and everything clears up because surrely they just banned the tickets issued by a single (or a few) TAs. No one had the time or energy to ask about pax faith or examine what they were wearning. The fact that all those affected (which btw is still yet to be seen/proven) were from a group of 2000 year-old fairytales believing priviledged a*** is just a *lucky* coincidence
"No one had the time or energy to ask about pax faith or examine what they were wearning." [sic]
It's not hard to identify a Hassidic Jew as their outfits make them standout.
A good friend of mine is a Lufthansa stewardess and also often flies the JFK to FRA route and I asked her if she knew anything about it and could say.
She said that in recent weeks there are more and more problems with a certain group of people on flights from FFK to FRA. Lufthansa would more than once point out the existing mask requirement on board also when boarding at JFK. These passengers...
A good friend of mine is a Lufthansa stewardess and also often flies the JFK to FRA route and I asked her if she knew anything about it and could say.
She said that in recent weeks there are more and more problems with a certain group of people on flights from FFK to FRA. Lufthansa would more than once point out the existing mask requirement on board also when boarding at JFK. These passengers then put on the mask and as soon as the plane took off, the masks were removed and now the crew had the issue with these passengers refusing to wear your mask. In the normal case, the seats of these passengers who refuse to wear the mask are noted and then blocked for 24 hours at Lufthansa. Here the crew will have forgotten it or for other reasons that one had decided for a collective punishment of these special passengers, since one did not have the data of the individual available.
Of course, it is now very easy to impute to Lufthansa a German company a Jew friendliness because of the history between the two peoples, but that would be in this case much too simple and completely wrong.
If a group of people repeatedly opposes Lufthansa's house rules and deliberately ignores them, then there will be penalties. Whether it is fair that all of them were prevented from continuing their flight is, of course, a question of fairness and certainly has nothing to do with the alleged racism or anti-Semitism. These penalties will be imposed on any passenger who deliberately violates house rules, and origin is irrelevant!
If you fly a lot you would realize there are PLENTY of examples on every flight to any origin where there are some people that dont wear a mask. There are plenty of pictures of the plane with non looking jewish people with masks around their chin. Why did they not get denied boarding? Go on any Lufthansa flight and you will see plenty of maskless people (and flight attendants)
But your whole comment, while talking a lot about Lufthansa's policies, seems to ignore the central point of this story: that it WAS apparently collective punishment: SOME Jews did not comply, so they banned a bunch of random Jews, because they couldn't, or wouldn't, be bothered to distinguish between individual Jews. That's textbook racism.
Origin is absolutely relevant—if you're being punished for something you did not do, based on your "origin" or that you...
But your whole comment, while talking a lot about Lufthansa's policies, seems to ignore the central point of this story: that it WAS apparently collective punishment: SOME Jews did not comply, so they banned a bunch of random Jews, because they couldn't, or wouldn't, be bothered to distinguish between individual Jews. That's textbook racism.
Origin is absolutely relevant—if you're being punished for something you did not do, based on your "origin" or that you dress similarly to others who did something wrong.
You have a sickening sense of fairness, @Michael, and your readiness to lump all Jews together explains it quite well.
Wait! Are you the captain that gave the order? Off to Nuremberg for you!!
You can't discriminate against an entire group based on the behavior of a few. Just because there is a history of incidents involving a few Hassidic or Ultra-Orthodox Jews disobeying the mask rules or causing problems by refusing to sit next to a woman or blocking the aisles to pray, that doesn't mean you can simply deny boarding to everyone in that group.
If there were a few passengers refusing to follow Lufthansa's stated...
You can't discriminate against an entire group based on the behavior of a few. Just because there is a history of incidents involving a few Hassidic or Ultra-Orthodox Jews disobeying the mask rules or causing problems by refusing to sit next to a woman or blocking the aisles to pray, that doesn't mean you can simply deny boarding to everyone in that group.
If there were a few passengers refusing to follow Lufthansa's stated mask rules then deny them from boarding the next flight. There are protocols allowing FA's to do this so there should be no reason why they decided to ban everyone from the next flight.
Ben,
I know you're of German decent, yet you are one of the few bloggers to cover this story. I have always like your blog before, but now I have a new found respect for you. Thank You Ben!
Absolutely Disgusting!
Ok... So to pull aside specific passengers that did not comply to airline policy is one thing, but to group them solely because they are Jewish is completely another thing. Unreal that this could happen this day and age, let alone in Germany.
Anyone who’s spent even a minute in Germany knows that German’s worship rules. It’s immoral to not follow the rules and people are free to lecture and punish you for not following them. It doesn’t matter what the rule is. A rule is a rule. Ordnung muss sein. There must be order! Did this National character trait contribute to this disgusting incident? I think so.
I'm sure it did, but collective punishment makes no sense even in the context of Germanic rule-worship.
I am a frequent reader and an Orthodox Jew. It is disgusting that in 2022 we have to deal with this daily. What makes it even more disgusting is that this is in a country that prides itself on being anti-Nazi. They were acting like Nazis and I would’ve made it known had I been there. I will be boycotting this airline.
I'm an orthodox Jew too, and I have zero tolerance for antisemitism—Lufthansa should have handled this very differently & far more diplomatically. Maybe antisemitism actually did come into play, in the mind of whoever decided on their ill-advised approach.
That said, on a recent United flight to Israel, my wife & I were annoyed & embarrassed by the entitled attitude & disdain for rules that prevailed among many of the passengers on our overwhelmingly Jewish...
I'm an orthodox Jew too, and I have zero tolerance for antisemitism—Lufthansa should have handled this very differently & far more diplomatically. Maybe antisemitism actually did come into play, in the mind of whoever decided on their ill-advised approach.
That said, on a recent United flight to Israel, my wife & I were annoyed & embarrassed by the entitled attitude & disdain for rules that prevailed among many of the passengers on our overwhelmingly Jewish flight—and we both know which segment of the frum community that was. I hate masking as much as anyone—but when I'm on someone else's plane, or ship or in their shul, I respect their rules. The United crew politely but firmly repeated the rules ad nauseum, and it was annoying—but they were more patient than any of us would be toward someone who flippantly ignored our policies in our place of business.
And this attitude did not begin with COVID—though I don't understand where this chutzpah emanates from among people who so often talk about how "we're still in galus"... But I believe the vast majority of orthodox Jews—Modern, RW & Center—agree it's important not to act as if the world is our bungalow colony. The rest tend think everyone else is acting like a Nazi if they expect us to follow rules. It's a surefire approach for a chillul Hashem.
[Deleted]
Wow. This comment is terrible on so many levels. Educate yourself.
What’s wrong? If Lufthansa rightfully bans a travel group for not complying with health rules, and there is no other viable alternative flight, the most pragmatic way is to book a train ticket.
But snowflakes nowadays must complain on social media to gain sympathy instead of pragmatically finding a solution.
They weren’t a group. They shared a religion and there’s where the commonality ended.
How is this hard to understand?
Great idea! Put the Jews on a train! Hmmmm...
Unfortunately, I think Max's comments was a sick joke, @Alvertos..."...via rail to reach their final destination," is pretty disgusting, and I suspect @Max knew exactly what he was saying. @Lucky, please address this.
What is disgusting about taking a train to quickly reach the final destination of the journey? Especially If that’s the only viable solution after being banned from flying for 24h.
Lufthansa‘s planes are not cleaner than the train.
And it’s a 10h train ride from FRA to BUD vs 24h waiting plus 2h flight, or 12h with connection via LON/AMS/CDG.
This comment is absolutely shameful. If you knew what you're saying, it was monstrous. If you didn't, you need to read a book or something
Says more about you sickos if you get offended by a pragmatic solution for the passengers to reach their destination timely.
10h train vs 24h flight ban, I know what I’d do.
LH can count themselves lucky none of their staff actually suggested this!
Frankfurt-Budapest is under 10 hours by ICE & Railjet train, and LH imposed an internal 24h flying ban on this group.
LH staff could thus have thought of this as a feasible alternative to let them reach Budapest as fast as possible.
Especially since LH can rebook passengers on DB trains nowadays in certain irrops situations.
One of the ways they...
LH can count themselves lucky none of their staff actually suggested this!
Frankfurt-Budapest is under 10 hours by ICE & Railjet train, and LH imposed an internal 24h flying ban on this group.
LH staff could thus have thought of this as a feasible alternative to let them reach Budapest as fast as possible.
Especially since LH can rebook passengers on DB trains nowadays in certain irrops situations.
One of the ways they could’ve made the optics of this incident even worse…
The problem is not the strict enforcement of the mask rule.
The problem is solely that we have an unnecessary mask rule in the first place .
I find this unacceptable. I will wait to hear an official explanation from Lufthansa on the matter. They should punish the ones who caused any issues on the first flight. They know who they were, they have seat numbers and names. Bulking everyone into one is not just unacceptable, it raises issues of racial discrimination of the worse kind, that of Germans against Jews. Potential PR disaster for Lufthansa here. Please follow up.
I’ve been on several flight in/out of JFK and I know that Orthodox Jews tended to be VERY anti-mask, and I saw many incidents first hand that involved large groups not wearing masks and getting very argumentative with FAs. But DL and AA handled it much better than Lufthansa is accused of here. They didn’t lump all members of the same race/religion, and still dealt with it on a per person (or smaller group) basis.
...I’ve been on several flight in/out of JFK and I know that Orthodox Jews tended to be VERY anti-mask, and I saw many incidents first hand that involved large groups not wearing masks and getting very argumentative with FAs. But DL and AA handled it much better than Lufthansa is accused of here. They didn’t lump all members of the same race/religion, and still dealt with it on a per person (or smaller group) basis.
You’d think Germany would know better, especially given their history.
Yeah, it's not like airlines don't have protocols in place to make sure only the people who were misbehaving are banned from the connection. Even if Orthodox and Hassidic Jews are more likely to cause problems re: masks than other groups, that doesn't excuse punishing all of them for the actions of a few.
There is simply no explanation that puts LH in a good light. Even if the captain of the Budapest flight said "no one coming from the flight from JFK will be allowed to board my plane", and even if he had no idea of the identity of the passengers, it would be completely ridiculous to punish every single passenger for the actions of the few. The likelihood that the captain didn't know any of the...
There is simply no explanation that puts LH in a good light. Even if the captain of the Budapest flight said "no one coming from the flight from JFK will be allowed to board my plane", and even if he had no idea of the identity of the passengers, it would be completely ridiculous to punish every single passenger for the actions of the few. The likelihood that the captain didn't know any of the details, however, is low. Which makes it even worse.
LH needs to discipline the captain if he violated company policy - and if he didn't violate policy, then clearly company policy needs to change.
Wow I'm shocked about this story. Period.
I'm more shocked that only a few blogs covered this story, shouldn't there be a national uproar?
This is gut-wrenchingly sickening and there cannot possibly be any reasonable excuse. I have to fly LH on a connection next week. I'll call UA and see if they'll rebook me on LX to connect in ZRH instead of FRA, but I don't have much hope of them doing it. Has anyone else tried to get partners to rebook away from LH in response to this?
LX belongs to LH anyway. And if you book a transatlantic flight with UA, Part of tue money will end up in LH‘s pocket anyway as they share all revenue.
Or maybe it was based on the ticket issuing agent? You wanna say you've never heard of a case when one member of a party misbehaves on a flight and the entire party is removed/banned?
They were not all ticketed through the same agent, nor were they all one group. The only factor linking them was being Jewish
Again, some booked cash, some booked miles, and as a whole they were unaffiliated (although a minority of them were booked in a couple of groups). The person being told he had to pay for other Jews’ mess was booked as an individual ticket directly through the airline, if you read Dan’s article. The only commonality was their religion. Why do you insist on a baseless and false line of defense?
As they were flying via Germany, I am not surprised. Many workers resemble their grandfathers in 30-40's when it comes to behavior and mentality.
Shame on Lufthansa!
Doesn't drawing this generalization follow exactly the same logic as, "the whole group of Orthodox Jews resembles the handful who refused to wear masks so let's ban them all?"
Until the people of Germany wake up to condemn this disaster, they will be lumped into one group. Period.
@Markus: "Until the people of Germany wake up to condemn this disaster, they will be lumped into one group. Period."
Until Orthodox Jews wake up to condemn those who didn't follow the mask rules, they will be lumped into one group. Period.
You see how silly this sounds?
Yes, it does, and it’s wrong and incorrect.
Still, I’m generally going to err on the side of the group shoved by the millions into gas chambers and crematoria a few decades ago vs. the group that perpetrated that atrocity.
(Also, one is a race/religion and one is a country/nationality, so discrimination and insults against them aren’t equal).
@Zalmy: " I’m generally going to err on the side of the group shoved by the millions into gas chambers and crematoria a few decades ago vs. the group that perpetrated that atrocity."
None of the "group" of Lufthansa employees perpetrating this stupidity was even alive a few decades ago, certainly not as adults. I am not defending them at all, but I do think drawing generalizations about the characteristics of individuals based on one's...
@Zalmy: " I’m generally going to err on the side of the group shoved by the millions into gas chambers and crematoria a few decades ago vs. the group that perpetrated that atrocity."
None of the "group" of Lufthansa employees perpetrating this stupidity was even alive a few decades ago, certainly not as adults. I am not defending them at all, but I do think drawing generalizations about the characteristics of individuals based on one's perceptions of the group is a mistake.
Did you really just refer to the nazis burning Jews in crematoriums as “stupidity”?! As if it was some dumb mistake that just happened to occur.
It wasn’t stupidity. It was calculated cruelty, Jew hatred and murder!!
@Charles: To answer your question: no.
Ha, the officer getting offended for being called out for the way he was acting ... like a Nazi. If anyone has the right to call a German a Nazi, it's a Jewish person - especially one being discriminated against in Germany due to being a Jew. What was the officer gonna do, anyway? I laughed when he was demanding to know who said it.
The German officer is not to blame - he was “just following orders!”
I am a frequent reader and an Orthodox Jew. It is disgusting that in 2022 we have to deal with this daily. What makes it even more disgusting is that this is in a country that prides itself on being anti-Nazi. They were acting like Nazis and I would’ve made it known had I been there. I will be boycotting this airline.
More award space for others.
In Germany its actually illegal to call someone a Nazi. (read the full dansdeals article on this incident for more info) so the police officer could've filed charges had he known who said it
Why not just file charges against everyone, in true Lufthansa style?!
(This is a joke, of course. And a bad one. My God what Lufthansa was thinking. They'll end up in court with this.)
I can virtually guarantee that no charges would be upheld against a Jewish person being discriminated against and facing a uniformed German officer waving a gun.
My main TATL airline is LH. I can state that over the last decade every trip through FRA has become tedious dealing with gate agents. They seemingly have been charges with some police matters and probably are immune to any consumer complaints.
Someone did behave like a Nazi, but not that officer. He was just standing there and keeping the peace. He did not give out orders, nor did he have any connection to what was transpiring. He did not mistreat anyone or say any derogetory things to the passangers as others who were filmed that day.
Anyone employed by Lufthansa, working at the airport or on those 2 planes that day, and they did not...
Someone did behave like a Nazi, but not that officer. He was just standing there and keeping the peace. He did not give out orders, nor did he have any connection to what was transpiring. He did not mistreat anyone or say any derogetory things to the passangers as others who were filmed that day.
Anyone employed by Lufthansa, working at the airport or on those 2 planes that day, and they did not do something to stop this gross act of discrimination, can be called a NAZI. In addition, they should be held accountable and prosecuted as a co-conspirator in this act of discrimination.