American now flies from both Dallas and Los Angeles to Hong Kong. Both flights are operated by American’s beautiful 777-300ERs, featuring first class and reverse herringbone seats in business class. The routes even have American’s “premium” service in first & business class, similar to what they offer to Australia (this means you get pajamas and mattress pads in business class).
However, both of these flights have been plagued by a surprising number of delays. It seems a bit puzzling that routes operated by brand new 777s would have so many issues.
For those of you not familiar with American’s operational issues on their Hong Kong flights, FlightStats gives both AA125 (Dallas to Hong Kong) and AA193 (Los Angeles to Hong Kong) zero out of five stars for their on-time performance:
Now, I don’t necessarily put too much weight on those FlightStats ratings, but I think we can all agree that American’s on-time performance in the markets isn’t great. 😉
Ultimately there are a lot of things that can impact on-time performance for ultra longhaul flights, and it goes beyond mechanical issues. Perhaps the most obvious cause is that crews are only contractually allowed to work for a certain amount of time, so if there’s any sort of substantial delay, it’s possible that the crew will time out, meaning that the airline needs to find a replacement crew. Finding four replacement pilots isn’t something that happens instantly, even when you have pilots on reserve.
So while this wouldn’t be an issue on a two hour flight, a delay up front can cause big issues on a 17 hour flight.
But it seems like there’s another thing that may be causing some issues for American’s performance to Hong Kong. Per JonNYC, apparently one major cause of American’s operational issues on their Hong Kong flights was that many of their pilots didn’t have visas for China.
Visa problems for @AmericanAir's HKG pilots?
Get a load of this; one previously unknown root cause of some of AA's issues with HKG flights..— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) January 16, 2017
…more fuel and time to put in that new fuel, as well as the weight restrictions.
— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) January 16, 2017
This might sound silly, but airlines always need to plan for potential diversions, and one of the closest diversion points from Hong Kong would be Shenzhen, Guangzhou, etc. If they needed to divert there, the flight would likely need to be canceled, given that the pilots are likely to have “timed out” at that point. But the pilots also couldn’t actually stay there, since they don’t have visas.
In other words, this meant American had to plan for diversions to airports outside of mainland China, which sometimes meant loading more fuel, and in some cases meant offloading some cargo, given how “heavy” the flight goes out. All of this adds to delays, and in some cases got the flight into a situation where the pilots timed out before the flight could even leave.
I believe this issue has since been resolved, though it’s sort of crazy to think about how much goes into the operations of a flight. Or in this instance, it makes you realize how many issues could have been avoided if all the pilots consistently just had Chinese visas (which I believe they have now).
Like I said, there are lots of things that can cause operational challenges on ultra longhaul flights, though this has to be one of the more interesting ones…
AA193 on Dec 21 is delayed at least 14h40m. Flight left the gate at LAX and abruptly returned to the terminal before take off. Pilot stayed the reason was that due the the head wind the crew will be working beyond the FAA limits. Now the flight is delayed till next day, and rumor said they don’t even know if it is going to happen. Who is going to make American Airlines great again? What a joke.
I’m not sure this is a real problem. In Shenzhen, Shanghai and Beijing and I think Xian you can get a 72- hour visa on arrival of you have a United States passport.
I had to look this post up as just got this message from AA- "Due to the potential of airspace restrictions, resulting in different aircraft routes, your upcoming flight to Asia may now require a refueling stop. Your flight is currently on time, however, we are offering additional flexibility that may allow you to change your travel plans without a fee due to this disruption." The AA website states flights between 14APR-21APR could be impacted...
I had to look this post up as just got this message from AA- "Due to the potential of airspace restrictions, resulting in different aircraft routes, your upcoming flight to Asia may now require a refueling stop. Your flight is currently on time, however, we are offering additional flexibility that may allow you to change your travel plans without a fee due to this disruption." The AA website states flights between 14APR-21APR could be impacted (just saw that DFW-HKG on Saturday 14, already diverted to LAX?!) and now HKG-LAX is already posting a 4hr delay!
I'm booked on Friday, and surprisingly the flight is totally sold out in J and F, luckily I'm in business, but will call to see what my options are out side of a HKG connect...probably only NRT/HND, but I'll take a LHR routing any day!
I was unfortunate enough to have issues twice out of all three DFW-HKG experiences in the past year that I've never really thought they would hit me before. First was last August (still 137), flight was on time and went smoothly until they reached DFW and had a rejected landing due to flash thunder and lack of visibility, diverted to Austin, waited, and flew back. Set me back a couple of hours and missed my...
I was unfortunate enough to have issues twice out of all three DFW-HKG experiences in the past year that I've never really thought they would hit me before. First was last August (still 137), flight was on time and went smoothly until they reached DFW and had a rejected landing due to flash thunder and lack of visibility, diverted to Austin, waited, and flew back. Set me back a couple of hours and missed my connection, but totally understandable. Second time was last December, 125 bound for HKG. Unspecified mechanical problem cited for some 7 hour delay which also directly affected flight 192 back to LAX.
cry babies
Aa193 on 19.1 is delayed 9 hours. Horrible.
I was on AA125 DFW to HKG in May. We diverted to Macau.
Look up UA 869 and DL39... They are in the same boat as far on time performance goes. Its not just an AA problem. I use UA and DL to HKG a lot because AA layover at LAX is too long.
@Louis
When I arrive at a U.S. airport, U.S. customs officers often call me over for inspection (and ransacked my luggage) when I arrived alone, but tend to pass me over when I was traveling my two pre-school kids.
Question: Is USA "a strange country and doesn’t always go by the rules, it all depends on the custom officers’s mood, the weather, the time when Trump was making some sort of speech. And yes,...
@Louis
When I arrive at a U.S. airport, U.S. customs officers often call me over for inspection (and ransacked my luggage) when I arrived alone, but tend to pass me over when I was traveling my two pre-school kids.
Question: Is USA "a strange country and doesn’t always go by the rules, it all depends on the custom officers’s mood, the weather, the time when Trump was making some sort of speech. And yes, it all depends on who ever is really in charge, you never know, all those political struggle between comrades."?
Or is the problem simply you: you have a bias view against China?
I heard there is an issue with AA crews who are not used to long haul flights as most AA flights are less than 15 hours. So a lot of attendants call in sick or refuse to fly this route. It seems like AA has been hiring CX attendants, which may improve on-time performance eventually.
I flew DFW-HKG last year, there was a typhoon at HKG, we were flying over China about 4 hrs from landing at HKG, we made a sharp left turn and headed east for 1 hr and landed at ICN and refueled, waited about an hour, then got clearance to enter the pattern for HKG. I have a screen shot of the monitor if you want to see the diversion. The rumor was because most people on the plane did not have Chinese visas so we could not land below us, which was China.
Remember that MFM, SZX and CAN are all located fairly close to HKG (within 50-60 miles) so in potential diversion scenarios like severe weather they don't help. Also, routing can take a significant polar direction, requiring long overflight of Russia and China. Taipei and Manila aren't a catch-all solution to diversion issues
To the poster who mentioned the 5 day visa in shenzhen, I believe that's only at specific ports, or maybe only the Lo Wu birder (where the train from Hung Hom in HK goes)
Does AA PROVIDE hotel rooms for flight delays of 12 hours?
This is definitely an interesting wrinkle, but likely just one of several factors. Couple of other items to consider:
- the planes fly in a "W" pattern (DFW-HKG-LAX-HKG-DFW) to avoid excessive ground time between flights.
- every longhaul fleet type seems to have a rash of maintenance problems, even the new planes. Some serious examination and reform on the maintenance side is obviously needed.
AA's longhaul reliability has really gone off a cliff...
This is definitely an interesting wrinkle, but likely just one of several factors. Couple of other items to consider:
- the planes fly in a "W" pattern (DFW-HKG-LAX-HKG-DFW) to avoid excessive ground time between flights.
- every longhaul fleet type seems to have a rash of maintenance problems, even the new planes. Some serious examination and reform on the maintenance side is obviously needed.
AA's longhaul reliability has really gone off a cliff the last year or so, and these "flagship" HKG flights are among the worst offenders - delays of 8, 10, 15 hours are not uncommon at all. I myself had a 14-hour delay last winter on LAX-NRT. Even the LAX-Auckland flight, on a nice new Dreamliner, is often delayed for hours on end.
AA's most premium routes already have to contend with some of the most bitter, disinterested, embarrassingly bad cabin crews in the sky. The least they could do is get the flights out on time.
You don't need a visa as a crewmember to Hong Kong. It's based off legalities that are NOT contractual; rather, as per FAA Regulations. This story is only halfway correct. I've been staffed on too many "recrews" to count on this exact flight and I know my contract and FARs too the 'T'. Both Shanghai and Hong Kong barely have wiggle room regarding FAA staffing requirements and duty day maximums. Nobody can expect a human...
You don't need a visa as a crewmember to Hong Kong. It's based off legalities that are NOT contractual; rather, as per FAA Regulations. This story is only halfway correct. I've been staffed on too many "recrews" to count on this exact flight and I know my contract and FARs too the 'T'. Both Shanghai and Hong Kong barely have wiggle room regarding FAA staffing requirements and duty day maximums. Nobody can expect a human being to be on duty and adequately fly a 400 paasenger airplane for more than 20 hours safely. Regardless if you get a "nap."
We were flying LAX to HKG on December 21st (1AM) connecting to flight to Bali, had boarded in first. Something was amiss, as there were a pile of blankets left in the galley and not being attended to, and neither were the FAs interacting with passengers (serving champagne, introducing themselves, etc.) FA came up to us and told us to deplane promptly because the plane wasn't going to fly! They did not have enough crew...
We were flying LAX to HKG on December 21st (1AM) connecting to flight to Bali, had boarded in first. Something was amiss, as there were a pile of blankets left in the galley and not being attended to, and neither were the FAs interacting with passengers (serving champagne, introducing themselves, etc.) FA came up to us and told us to deplane promptly because the plane wasn't going to fly! They did not have enough crew to fly, as some were timed out. Flight was delayed until 2pm! After 4 hours of dealing with Exec Plat desk during the middle of the night, we were able to get onto Cathay 11am flight and reschedule entire trip (and sleep a bit in the lounge). Worked out in the end, but this is an issue that should not come up. They need to fix!
This is stupid. Buy your pilots who fly to china (I can't imagine they fly just to HKG) the 10 year visa. Issue resolved. I was recently on the LAX-HKG flight in which it was delayed because we had a full load a fuel and taxied to the end of the runway where we had a tail wind. So, we had to turn around and go back to the other way and take off into...
This is stupid. Buy your pilots who fly to china (I can't imagine they fly just to HKG) the 10 year visa. Issue resolved. I was recently on the LAX-HKG flight in which it was delayed because we had a full load a fuel and taxied to the end of the runway where we had a tail wind. So, we had to turn around and go back to the other way and take off into the wind. How do you screw that up? That's just poor planning and stupidity. And yes, my business class seat area looked like crap...clean your planes AA.
My experience with flying to HKG - is that delays have been due to mechanical as announced by the pilot. Maybe a 1.5 hours delay while on board.
Also I had a broken video system in J on a flight from LHR.
AA cancelled # 100 from JFK to LHR on Jan 12th. No reason given. But I suspect they swapped with another aircraft - maybe to GRU, or had mechanical.
I was just on 192 from HKG to LAX. Not only did we leave on time, but we arrived 45 minutes ahead of schedule.
My flight from DFW to ICN not too long ago was apparently loaded to the brim. They couldn't give standbys seats apparently because they were that packed full of cargo.
why not just divert to MFM Macau? i would think that's the closest airport w/o visa restrictions (for most). TPE is the next best thing... (it'll be good to see AA back in TPE ;) )
Why do the pilots need a visa for possible diversion points in the PRC, but the passengers don't then? Many people don't need a visa for HK, but would need one for the PRC.
Given that AA already has flights to PEK and PVG, why aren't AA already getting their long haul pilots Chinese visas?
This is bizarre. Do pilots (and, presumably, other crewmembers) really need a visa for *every country they fly over*? Is that a general rule? Or does it apply just to China? Or just to flights over China that begin/end in Hong Kong?
Luckily, when I flew DFW - HKG on AA last june the flight was on time, the same happened on the way back.
There are non-chinese airports close to HK such as Taipei, Kaohsiung, Manila (slightly further away but still within the rabge. many CX flights use Manila as diversion airport)
China is a strange country and doesn't always go by the rules, it all depends on the immigration officers's mood, the weather, the time when Trump was making some sort of speech. And yes, it all depends on who ever is really in charge, you never know, all those political struggle between comrades.
@Hosea We're discussing visas which permit entry to a country, not payment cards
@Santastico AA is and has been way cheaper indeed, especially for those who connect via LAX.
@anon,
Interesting. I wonder why they work for you and not the aircrew.
I can understand someone that lives in DFW to fly AA from HKG. To LAX? Unless the airfare is way cheaper on AA I would never chose them over CX.
@Hosea
I haven't had any trouble using US visas in China
Correct-- Crew needs visa -- "C" (crew) Visa, if I'm not mistaken, and there arent exceptions.
Since Guangzhou offers a 72-hour transit visa valid for all of Guangdong province and Shenzhen has a 5-day visa on arrival, why would this be a problem?
More generally, are pilots required to have a visa for any potential diversion airport along their route? Surely there are visa exceptions for air crew in these circumstances.
@ Arcanum -- Those are tourist visas, so I imagine the rules for visas are different if you're a pilot, which I suspect is the problem.
Have you seen a beautiful 777-300? They are already getting run down and trashy. I got off the DFW-HKG flight and got on an old Cathay 777-200 that was clean as could be. American doesn't take care of their planes whatsoever
Hi Ben,
A genuine and not loaded question(s)
How long do you feel you can live in the manner you do, i.e. with no fixed abode it would seem? Do you have any plans to 'settle down' or a career path of choice long term?
Out of 140,000 miles flown last year, the only delay to remember was our AA125 to HKG in Feb2016. It was 12 hour delayed, so we opted to fly on Cathay, only to lose our luggage in the process. Luggage finally returned on day 6 of our 10 day vacation in Phuket. Some lessons learned as a result.
Wow, I never knew you needed a separate visa for China. I just figured the network that's "everywhere you want to be" would work on card readers in China. No wonder they have issues if they have to apply for a new Chinese credit card!
Do all the issuers have this dual-network issue or could I use my American mastercard in China?