Questions and Answers

I’ve never heard of this being a thing before!

Alaska (and it looks like United too) have a minimum connection time in Dublin on Aer Lingus of 2 hours — Alaska agents say Aer Lingus is imposing that on the tickets Alaska issues. But Aer Lingus and British Airways will ticket Aer Lingus itineraries with far shorter connection times. I’ve never heard of connecting times varying by the ticket issuer!

Here are some examples:

1) SEA–>DUB–>EDI

Flight from SEA arrives DUB at 12:40pm.
First bookable departure to EDI through Alaska or United: 4:40pm
First bookable departure to EDI through Aer Lingus, Avios, or British Airways: 2:25pm

2) SFO–>DUB–>EDI

Flight from SFO arrives DUB at 11:45am.
First bookable departure to EDI through Alaska or United: 2:25pm
First bookable departure to EDI through Aer Lingus, Avios, or British Airways: 1:10pm

What’s up with this? Is something misconfigured in Alaska’s (and United’s) systems? Is Aer Lingus imposing this on their partners as a means of getting more folks to ticket through Aer Lingus (as Alaska agents claim)?

This one is totally new to me, and given how easy connections in Dublin are, it’s really insane to be forced to have a minimum connection time of 2 hours. Sigh…

Don’t know if this has anything to do with it or not, but the DUB-EDI leg is operated by Stobart Air, which I assume is like United Express/American Eagle/Delta Connection. Perhaps not all of those flights are bookable as partner awards?

[QUOTE=”MidSouth Skier, post: 66644, member: 184″]Don’t know if this has anything to do with it or not, but the DUB-EDI leg is operated by Stobart Air, which I assume is like United Express/American Eagle/Delta Connection. Perhaps not all of those flights are bookable as partner awards?[/QUOTE]

That’s definitely not it — all of the Stobart Air operated flights are available as partner awards.

I just flew SEA-DUB-EDI a month ago with 1hr 40 min connection time in Dublin, ticketed almost a year ago by British Airways using Avios. I called today to see if they would book the same itinerary again and they said no — 2 hrs minimum connection time needed in Dublin. So something has changed. Now Alaska United, and British Airways all won’t ticket less than a 2-hour connection time in Dublin. And from my 2 back-to-back experiences, you don’t need 2 hours to connect in Dublin from the US.

But oddly enough, Aer Lingus will ticket a paid itinerary for the 1hr 40 minute connection time. I didn’t go all the way through to purchase, so I can’t claim this with 100% confidence, but it appears in all of their search results.

Another weird data point — using Google Flights, the 1 hr 40 minute connection is listed in the SEA-EDI search results if “all airlines” are selected. If just Aer Lingus is selected, Google Flights imposes a 2hr connection time. Even though the itinerary is composed of all Aer Lingus flights.

And it’s definitely not a problem with just particular flight. If flying from SFO-DUB-EDI, the flight in question is ticketable by Alaska, British, and United because it’s part of more than 2 hours connection time in Dublin — but the earlier flight from DUB-EDI making less than 2 hrs connection time drops out (again, except on an Aer Lingus paid itinerary).

Does anyone have any idea what’s going on? Does it sound like a temporary issue or a new permanent policy that somehow Aer Lingus paid tickets gets around? I’m not sure if I should wait it out in the hopes that the minimum connection times get corrected, but that would be pointless if it’s an intentional permanent change.

Help! 🙂

Many thanks as always,
Todd

[USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER] [USER=4]@Lucky[/USER] [USER=79]@Gaurav[/USER] [USER=184]@MidSouth Skier[/USER]

[QUOTE=”SeattleTodd, post: 66648, member: 128″]That’s definitely not it — all of the Stobart Air operated flights are available as partner awards.

I just flew SEA-DUB-EDI a month ago with 1hr 40 min connection time in Dublin, ticketed almost a year ago by British Airways using Avios. I called today to see if they would book the same itinerary again and they said no — 2 hrs minimum connection time needed in Dublin. So something has changed. Now Alaska United, and British Airways all won’t ticket less than a 2-hour connection time in Dublin. And from my 2 back-to-back experiences, you don’t need 2 hours to connect in Dublin from the US.

But oddly enough, Aer Lingus will ticket a paid itinerary for the 1hr 40 minute connection time. I didn’t go all the way through to purchase, so I can’t claim this with 100% confidence, but it appears in all of their search results.

Another weird data point — using Google Flights, the 1 hr 40 minute connection is listed in the SEA-EDI search results if “all airlines” are selected. If just Aer Lingus is selected, Google Flights imposes a 2hr connection time. Even though the itinerary is composed of all Aer Lingus flights.

And it’s definitely not a problem with just particular flight. If flying from SFO-DUB-EDI, the flight in question is ticketable by Alaska, British, and United because it’s part of more than 2 hours connection time in Dublin — but the earlier flight from DUB-EDI making less than 2 hrs connection time drops out (again, except on an Aer Lingus paid itinerary).

Does anyone have any idea what’s going on? Does it sound like a temporary issue or a new permanent policy that somehow Aer Lingus paid tickets gets around? I’m not sure if I should wait it out in the hopes that the minimum connection times get corrected, but that would be pointless if it’s an intentional permanent change.

Help! 🙂

Many thanks as always,
Todd

[USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER] [USER=4]@Lucky[/USER] [USER=79]@Gaurav[/USER] [USER=184]@MidSouth Skier[/USER][/QUOTE]

One more weird thing I just noticed — Alaska, United, and British all allow less than 2-hour connections in DUB when flying to the USA! That makes absolutely no sense because in that direction you need even more time for US Customs Preclearance.

How can they be requiring 2 hour connections in DUB on flights from the USA to Europe, but less than 2 hour connections in DUB on flights from Europe to the USA?

Makes me even more hopeful the 2-hour connection is a temporary “glitch”, but who knows how long it would take for this to be caught and changed.

I’d love advice from the professionals! 🙂

[QUOTE=”SeattleTodd, post: 66650, member: 128″]One more weird thing I just noticed — Alaska, United, and British all allow less than 2-hour connections in DUB when flying to the USA! That makes absolutely no sense because in that direction you need even more time for US Customs Preclearance.

How can they be requiring 2 hour connections in DUB on flights from the USA to Europe, but less than 2 hour connections in DUB on flights from Europe to the USA?

Makes me even more hopeful the 2-hour connection is a temporary “glitch”, but who knows how long it would take for this to be caught and changed.

I’d love advice from the professionals! :)[/QUOTE]

Last bit of data I’ll share — ExpertFlyer shows itineraries with less than 2 hours connection time in Dublin, and looking at minimum connection times from EI (International) to EI (International) I believe it states 45 minutes (if I’m reading the data correctly:

STANDARD.D/D…D/I…I/D…I/I.
ONLINE .45 .45 .45 .45
OFFLINE .45 .45 .45 .45

But then it goes on to say this, and I honestly don’t understand how the two fit together:

** OR * ARE ALL
EI-EI II 1.40 EXT – ORD TRM 1 – 2
EI-EI II 1.40 INV – MCO TRM 1 – 2
EI-EI II 1.40 INV – YYZ TRM 1 – 2
EI-EI II 1.40 SEN – MCO TRM 1 – 2
EI-EI II 1.40 SEN – YYZ TRM 1 – 2
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 AUSTRIA – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 AUSTRIA – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 BELGIUM – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 BELGIUM – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 SWITZERLAND – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 SWITZERLAND – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 CZECH REPUBLIC – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 CZECH REPUBLIC – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 GERMANY – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 GERMANY – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 SPAIN AND CANARY ISL – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2
SPAIN AND CANARY ISL – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – AUSTRIA
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – BELGIUM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – SWITZERLAND
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – CZECH REPUBLIC
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – GERMANY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – SPAIN AND CANARY ISL
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – GREECE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – CROATIA
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – HUNGARY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – ITALY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – MOROCCO
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – NETHERLANDS
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – POLAND
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 FRANCE – PORTUGAL
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – AUSTRIA
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – BELGIUM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – SWITZERLAND
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – CZECH REPUBLIC
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – GERMANY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2
UNITED KINGDOM – SPAIN AND CANARY ISL
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – GREECE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – CROATIA
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – HUNGARY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – ITALY
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – MOROCCO
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – NETHERLANDS
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – POLAND
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 UNITED KINGDOM – PORTUGAL
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 GREECE – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 GREECE – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 CROATIA – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 CROATIA – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 HUNGARY – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 HUNGARY – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 ITALY – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 ITALY – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 MOROCCO – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 MOROCCO – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 NETHERLANDS – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 NETHERLANDS – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 POLAND – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 POLAND – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 PORTUGAL – FRANCE
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2 PORTUGAL – UNITED KINGDOM
EI-EI II 1.00 TRM 2 – 2 ALL – CANADA
EI-EI II 1.15 TRM 2 – 2 ALL – UNITED STATES
**-EI II 2.00 AUH – ALL TRM 2 – 2 ALL – UNITED STATES
**-EI II 2.00 LCY – ALL TRM 1 – 2
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 1 – 1
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 1 – 2
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2
EI-** II 2.00 ALL – LCY TRM 2 – 1
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 1 – 1
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 2 – 1
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2

Any thoughts?

[USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER]

Here’s the last bit of new data I have. EI tineraries with DUB connections of less than 2 hours appear to be ticketable by Alaska, British Airways, and United until Daylight Savings Time ends. From that point on, it appears that 2-hour connections are required. This just gets weirder and weirder… why would the minimum connection time change for good starting in November?

[QUOTE=”SeattleTodd, post: 66670, member: 128″]Here’s the last bit of new data I have. EI tineraries with DUB connections of less than 2 hours appear to be ticketable by Alaska, British Airways, and United until Daylight Savings Time ends. From that point on, it appears that 2-hour connections are required. This just gets weirder and weirder… why would the minimum connection time change for good starting in November?[/QUOTE]

It is probably just a function of different companies’ software not ‘talking’ to each other perfectly. Does it change back to less than 2 hours sometime in December? Ireland and the UK change their clocks at different times in Nov and March. The software may not be taking that into account right now.

QUOTE=”OCTinPHL, post: 66671, member: 4556″]It is probably just a function of different companies’ software not ‘talking’ to each other perfectly. Does it change back to less than 2 hours sometime in December? Ireland and the UK change their clocks at different times in Nov and March. The software may not be taking that into account right now.[/QUOTE]

Nope — it stays the same through the rest of the schedule. I’m trying to fly next August and noticed the problem (and the difference from flying the exact same flights just a few weeks ago) when I was researching award availability for next August. Sigh…

[USER=128]@SeattleTodd[/USER] – just out of curiosity, is an extra 75 minutes (on the SFO-DUB-EDI itin) really that big of a deal? (The SEA itin is a bit more frustrating, I’ll admit, but much better than what AA often offers when connecting to BA – or itself! – on award tickets).

I get the airlines have crazy rules, but often (as I think in this case) it is sometimes software not talking to each other *and* the fact that most airlines don’t make all flights available to its partners. Is that nefarious (trying to get you to pay $ or book directly with it)? Maybe… but it may also be that these airlines have so many interacting pieces (reservations, ticketing, awards, baggage) that crap sometimes happens.

[QUOTE=”OCTinPHL, post: 66673, member: 4556″][USER=128]@SeattleTodd[/USER] – just out of curiosity, is an extra 75 minutes (on the SFO-DUB-EDI itin) really that big of a deal? (The SEA itin is a bit more frustrating, I’ll admit, but much better than what AA often offers when connecting to BA – or itself! – on award tickets).

I get the airlines have crazy rules, but often (as I think in his case) it is sometimes software not talking to each other *and* the fact that most airlines don’t make all flights available to its partners. Is that nefarious (trying to get you to pay $ or book directly with it)? Maybe… but it may also be that these airlines have so many interacting pieces (reservations, ticketing, awards, baggage) that crap sometimes happens.[/QUOTE]

I get it, believe me. In part I’m just fascinated by these things and would like to understand what’s going on. But I’ll most likely be flying from SEA (due to nonexistent award availability from SFO) so it’ll be a 2hr 15 min extra layover, when I’m trying to rush to get into town for a huge theater festival (the Edinburgh Festival Fringe). So it will be painful to be cooling my heels in DUB for no reason.

[QUOTE=”SeattleTodd, post: 66655, member: 128″]
EI-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 1 – 1
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 1 – 2
**-EI II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 1 – 1
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 2 – 1
EI-** II 2.00 TRM 2 – 2[/QUOTE]

These are the relevant parts. The defaults of 45 minutes are overridden by any of the below conditions, which in addition to the various city pairs have these blanket EI International to International rules requiring 2 hours, regardless of whether or not there’s a terminal change.

So I don’t know why it has changed (though it may have something to do with the various concerns Ireland has around their border and Brexit), but that’s why you’re getting the 2 hour answer.

[QUOTE=”Tiffany, post: 66685, member: 7″]These are the relevant parts. The defaults of 45 minutes are overridden by any of the below conditions, which in addition to the various city pairs have these blanket EI International to International rules requiring 2 hours, regardless of whether or not there’s a terminal change.

So I don’t know why it has changed (though it may have something to do with the various concerns Ireland has around their border and Brexit), but that’s why you’re getting the 2 hour answer.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, [USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER]

But there are a few things that still don’t square with that:
[LIST]
[*]The 2-hour minimum connection times aren’t enforced until Daylight Savings Time ends in November
[*]A much-less-than-2-hour minimum connection time is permitted in the opposite direction (Europe to Dublin to USA) throughout the schedule
[*]Aer Lingus will ticket a paid itinerary with a connection time of less than 2 hours in the problematic direction (USA to Dublin to Europe) throughout the schedule
[/LIST]
Now that you’ve explained what that data means, it seems inconsistent with the above facts. Any other thoughts?

[USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER]

Ireland actually goes off DST the last Sunday in October; where as the US goes off it a week later on Nov. 3.

The reality is that the MCT [U][B]is[/B][/U] two hours for the flights you listed – as the EF data shows. As [USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER] said, that overrides the “standard” 45 minutes. Anything different is the exception, not the other way around.

[QUOTE=”OCTinPHL, post: 66687, member: 4556″]Ireland actually goes off DST the last Sunday in October; where as the US goes off it a week later on Nov. 3.

The reality is that the MCT [U][B]is[/B][/U] two hours for the flights you listed – as the EF data shows. As [USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER] said, that overrides the “standard” 45 minutes. Anything different is the exception, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

Yes — I was referencing US DST. That’s when the permitted connections change.

The EF data does not address the inconsistencies with the facts I listed above. Plus I just flew the itinerary in August with a less-than-2-hour connection time. So somehow EF is listing MCTs that don’t take effect until November.

And at the very least everyone is ignoring the 2-hour MCT for flights from Europe to the USA, even though, unlike the USA to Europe, that direction has the additional time sink of US Customs Preclearance. Doesn’t make any sense.

It’s fine if the answer is irrational. My brain wants it to make sense.

It could be software. It could just be that Aer Lingus is changing the MCT come Nov. 1. It may be that they are screwing with award inventory. AA does it all the time. It is what it is.

[QUOTE=”OCTinPHL, post: 66689, member: 4556″]It could be software. It could just be that Aer Lingus is changing the MCT come Nov. 1. It may be that they are screwing with award inventory. AA does it all the time. It is what it is.[/QUOTE]

But wouldn’t the MCTs apply to all airlines? How can Aer Lingus impose those MCTs on everyone but themselves? (They will sell USA to Europe DUB connections with less than 2 hours. I can’t tell about awards through them because Avios.com doesn’t show the availability that UA, BA, and AS see. But you can certainly buy tickets through AerLingus.com through the schedule with < 2 hour MCTs.

Dude, I don’t know. We’ve tried suggesting some reasons. Call EI?

As far as MCTs, it’s not these are government regulated. If EI wants to have different MCTs for partner tickets, they probably can. It’s their prerogative.

[QUOTE=”OCTinPHL, post: 66691, member: 4556″]Dude, I don’t know. We’ve tried suggesting some reasons. Call EI?

As far as MCTs, it’s not these are government regulated. If EI wants to have different MCTs for partner tickets, they probably can. It’s their prerogative.[/QUOTE]

Hey here, no need to get testy! Like I said, I’m fascinated by this and have learned a ton from Lucky’s blog and this forum. If you’ve exhausted your interest in this topic, no need to reply. I know it’s 99% likely some reason that’s completely beyond my control. Just find it fascinating, and a small-to-medium part of me is curious how likely it is to revert back, based on what the true cause ends up being. Thanks for your suggestions — I really do appreciate them. 🙂

Sorry, I’m not. But my point remains – people have offered multiple reasons. And like I said, it’s completely up to EI. Who knows? What I was trying to point out is that according to this:
EI-EI II 1.15 TRM 2 – 2 ALL – UNITED STATES
The MCT [U][B]is[/B][/U] 2 hours. Not 45 minutes. Anything else is the exception, not the other way around. But regardless, EI can sell a ticket with less than a MCT if it wants to do so.

[QUOTE=”SeattleTodd, post: 66688, member: 128″]It’s fine if the answer is irrational. My brain wants it to make sense.[/QUOTE]

Hah, airlines aren’t always rational (which sometimes works to our benefit, and is sometimes annoying). And computers are only as logical as the person who programmed them, so….could be a mistake, could be temporary, could be that these other airlines haven’t updated their feeds to get the most current MCT (or have, but haven’t pushed it to their website so the itinerary could still fail at the time of ticketing), or any number of other things.

For my personal sanity, when things are hardcoded like this, I try and just take the approach of “Hmmm. Interesting. Is what it is I guess.” — trying to justify some of these things can be maddening otherwise.

Thanks, Tiffany. That’s good advice. 🙂

I do have an update to share. So at midnight today (just 50 minutes ago) is when the flights I’ve wanted became bookable for next August. I was poking around on Alaska’s site today checking availability for the same flights a day earlier, and guess what — the less-than-2-hour connection times showed up in the search results once again — on both Alaska and United. I got really excited and couldn’t wait until I could ticket the flights I needed.

Well, right at midnight my SEA-DUB-EDI flights showed up in the search results with the 1hr45 minute connection (as opposed to 4hr connection) that I wanted. Proceeded to checkout and boom… ticketing failed. Tried again with a different credit card. Failed again. Tried the 4 hour connection for the heck of it — and it worked. (I’m Alaska MVP Gold so no worries about making changes.)

I was too curious so I went over to United and tried to make the same booking with the 1hr 45 minute connection. (Figured I could just cancel within 24 hours) Got all the way through to checkout and boom… ticketing failed.

Soooooo… might this be progress and the minimum connection time is being updated but hasn’t percolated through to all systems yet? Or did some old configuration make it into the search results to show the flights with less connection time?

Does this offer any clues to the experts? Why would both Alaska’s and United’s search results start including the flights with less than 2 hour connections, but then both airlines’ systems fail on ticketing?

[USER=7]@Tiffany[/USER] [USER=4556]@OCTinPHL[/USER] [USER=184]@MidSouth Skier[/USER] [USER=79]@Gaurav[/USER]

That doesn’t surprise me at all, and tracks with what I mentioned in my earlier comment. The reservation systems and airline websites aren’t always in sync, unfortunately.

Hello! In case anyone has been having sleepless nights wondering how this is playing out, I just wanted to let you know that the connection times appear to have fixed themselves and I’m now ticketed with my preferred, 1hr 45min connection time in DUB. 🙂 The MCTs haven’t been updated in Expert Flyer though….