Hey, you’ve gotta hand it to United’s network planning folks for their creativity and willing to try to new things…
In this post:
United plans more intra-Asia flights with 737s
Brian Sumers at The Airline Observer has a fascinating interview with Patrick Quayle, United’s SVP of Global Network Planning and Alliances. Quayle shared an interesting new area of the network that the airline is focusing on, to optimize profitability.
United has a huge presence in the Pacific, and the airline even has some Boeing 737s (and corresponding crews) based in Guam (GUM). However, United’s network out of Guam reportedly isn’t as profitable as it was pre-pandemic, based on how demand has shifted.
The airline is now planning something new with some of these 737s. Rather than returning some of the 737s to the US mainline, United instead plans to increase its narrow body flying out of Tokyo Narita Airport (NRT). I love the idea behind this:
- US airlines have largely shifted their flying from Tokyo Narita Airport to Tokyo Haneda Airport, as more slots have become available there
- United continues to have a huge presence at Narita Airport, with flights from many of its hubs
- While some of the passengers on those Narita Airport flights are terminating in the Tokyo area, others are connecting onto other airlines, including All Nippon Airways
- Recently, United announced plans to launch a new 737 route between Tokyo Narita and Cebu, in the Philippines (CEB), and this is apparently the first of several new 737 routes that United is considering from the airport
- Not only could these flights be useful for those connecting off United flights, but United would also have traffic rights to serve the local markets
The new route between Tokyo and Cebu is being viewed as a test. Apparently initial bookings are quite strong, so United is now investigating ways to expand there. As Quayle explained:
“Our job is solving problems and being creative, and not complaining. We have these assets that are out in the western Pacific, so let’s use it to try something different.”
Gosh, I love that attitude, and willingness to try new things, and I wish it’s something we saw at more airlines. Not all of United’s new route endeavors work out well, but I commend the airline for being willing to try, and then adjusting quickly when things don’t work out.
It’s quite a contrast to American’s non-existent strategy, and to Delta’s very conservative strategy. Before anyone jumps in to say “but that effort might not lead to the greatest profitability,” let me point out that I’m looking at this from the perspective of a consumer, and not a shareholder — consumers like global route networks.
Intra-Asia United flying brings back good memories
United restarting intra-Asia flying from Tokyo Narita sure brings back some fond memories. Back in the day, I remember flying United Boeing 777s from Tokyo Narita to Bangkok (BKK) and Singapore (SIN), and United Boeing 747s from Hong Kong (HKG) to Ho Chi Minh City (SGN). Gosh, those were some fun times.
Now, at the time those routings were more important to United’s overall route network, since United didn’t otherwise have a huge nonstop network to Asia. In the meantime, United has an incredible transpacific network, with nonstop flights to everywhere from Manila, to Singapore, to Taipei.
On the one hand, that amazing network makes you wonder if there’s even a need for more intra-Asia Boeing 737 flying. But I guess another way to look at it is that it all depends where your travel is originating. United’s expansive Asia network is largely out of San Francisco (SFO), so from other United hubs, there would be lots of one-stop routings possible by connecting at Narita Airport.
Bottom line
United Airlines will soon launch a new route between Tokyo Narita and Cebu with a Boeing 737. It seems that this could be part of a larger strategy on the part of United, of operating point-to-point routes from Tokyo to other points in Asia.
The logic is that United’s Guam hub isn’t performing as well as it used to, and there are 737s that are based there. So rather than returning them to the mainland, United will try its luck at expanding out of Tokyo. I love what United’s going for here, and can’t wait to see how it plays out, and what other routes we may see.
What do you make of United expanding out of Tokyo Narita with Boeing 737s?
Hi - how is it that US airlines hold fifth freedom hub and spoke rights from Tokyo Narita? I can understand if initially this was a legacy of post-Second World War reconstruction etc - but is the current situation just a Japan-US bilateral agreement - ie can Japan Airlines or All Nippon Airlines launch Los Angeles-New York JFK?
Sounds interesting but the 737 is not appealing as opposed to an A330 or a 787.
I wish it would bring back BKK route someday in the future.
Doing what Delta did from Narita.SMH
As A321xlrs replace 757s, the 757 may be a good option for intra-Asia flying just as DL/NW used before.
Dps-nrt is probably outside of 737 range. Ana used to run an all j 737 to India. India could be an interesting beyond nrt option, especially with Russia over flight restrictions and middle east geopolitics. You'd likely need a 752 to make that work.
If UA could fly into near city airports like GMP and TSA...
As A321xlrs replace 757s, the 757 may be a good option for intra-Asia flying just as DL/NW used before.
Dps-nrt is probably outside of 737 range. Ana used to run an all j 737 to India. India could be an interesting beyond nrt option, especially with Russia over flight restrictions and middle east geopolitics. You'd likely need a 752 to make that work.
If UA could fly into near city airports like GMP and TSA for Seoul and Taipei, this could be an interesting alternative for those coming from a city with NRT service but not in SFO.
Macau could be an interesting new add but I am skeptical of US demand. I would rather have a 737 to HKG and have more options to get there.
Eric,
the point is not whether UA could find airplanes or cities in Asia which they could serve from NRT.
The point is that US carrier rights for beyond NRT service are tied to the operation of transpacific flights from NRT to the US.
NRT as a hub is becoming increasingly economically obsolete because there is enough US-Tokyo capacity at HND to pull the highest fare passengers to HND.
UA cannot...
Eric,
the point is not whether UA could find airplanes or cities in Asia which they could serve from NRT.
The point is that US carrier rights for beyond NRT service are tied to the operation of transpacific flights from NRT to the US.
NRT as a hub is becoming increasingly economically obsolete because there is enough US-Tokyo capacity at HND to pull the highest fare passengers to HND.
UA cannot and would not even if it could operate a standalone NRT intra-Asian operation.
They are simply trying to rearrange their poorly performing NRT and GUM operations but the writing is on the wall that NRT as a hub is very likely not sustainable.
HND might expand at some point to allow all US nonstop markets to move from NRT but it will still not grow enough to be able to operate as a viable hub like NRT, ICN, HKG and other Asia-Pacific hubs.
UA/NH and AA/JL will have to make a decision at some point as to how long they are willing to continue to sustain losses at NRT in order to keep their JVs and also to hold onto their overall size in the US-Tokyo market.
i see this as an alternative to LCCs for flying to/from secondary markets, like Cebu, with points earning/redemption possibilities. I’m thrilled.
precisely.
NRT IS turning into a low cost carrier airport AS THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT INTENDED.
UA probably will not get much connecting traffic from the US on NRT-CEB- some but not much - and there will be little demand for premium revenue.
The problem is that UA has a large transpacific operation with NH at NRT which is a financially dying transpacific hub. GUM is in a similar situation.
UA is simply...
precisely.
NRT IS turning into a low cost carrier airport AS THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT INTENDED.
UA probably will not get much connecting traffic from the US on NRT-CEB- some but not much - and there will be little demand for premium revenue.
The problem is that UA has a large transpacific operation with NH at NRT which is a financially dying transpacific hub. GUM is in a similar situation.
UA is simply reshuffling the cards on the underperforming parts of its TPAC network
Fares out of GUM have never been good but they are absolutely ridiculous right now. For instance, check the fare to neighboring island Saipan. Nearly $300 one way for a 45 minute flight.
Before you put a bow on it I would look at the ALPA contract and see how that impacts overall aircraft utilization in the pacific out of the GUM Domicile. They’ve already given up so much to the Star Alliance partners for years so an incremental 737 will not make a dent in the overall operation.
United: we promise to take you to a secondary destination in Asia via NRT!
Delta: a big hub in Asia? We are too premium and too good for it!
Now, as a passenger who has no financial interest in any of the above, which airline would you choose?
Btw, this is not a pool...
Delta is doing the same thing in ICN. Ua still has far more nonstops then dl. Probably because the bulk of there wide bodies are 30 plus year old 767s.
I would love to see united fly to Thailand again Phuket, Chiang Mai or Bangkok. My brother lives in Thailand and it would be nice to be able to go see him and stay-on United instead of buying tickets on other airlines
Any service to the Philippines that doesn't involve Manila airport is a good service.
Just disembarked from UA190 - MNL to SFO. Sunday morning at NAIA was busy, but the line kept moving. From the time I started at the end of the long line, go thru Immigration/Security, I arrived in the SilverKris lounge in under 40 minutes. Not great, but not terrible. Arrival at Manila 2 weeks ago was extremely efficient. Good job by all staff. By the way, Grab taxi is useful.
They’ve done this before and dropped it because Japanese landing fees made
the routes un profitable
United management lacks long term memory
It would be great if you would hold the Tim Dunn trolling until after he posts. Y’all are just encouraging the drama. And while I know some of you thrive on that, I’d prefer thoughtful discussion with people who don’t just call everyone who disagrees with them stupid as Tim and another frequent poster are inclined to do.
Delta
feel free to post a quote I have EVER made calling a thoughtful discussion "stupid"
I wholeheartedly agree with your request for some people to put a lid on it - but let's face that some people are just jealous that someone else can discuss things they don't even understand and they sure as heck don't want to hear the reality that they don't want to hear.
Specific to this topic, UA is going back...
feel free to post a quote I have EVER made calling a thoughtful discussion "stupid"
I wholeheartedly agree with your request for some people to put a lid on it - but let's face that some people are just jealous that someone else can discuss things they don't even understand and they sure as heck don't want to hear the reality that they don't want to hear.
Specific to this topic, UA is going back to doing what DL quit doing - and NW did for decades - even as UA is trying to hold together a two airport Tokyo operation even while GUM performance is also doing poorly.
UA was determined to mark its territory in Asia/Pacific and added a bunch of capacity last winter esp. in the S. Pacific and UA lost money while DL made as much as it did in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. UA is cutting capacity while DL is talking about adding another city in Australia - Melbourne. DL says TPE is doing well and is certain to add at least a city per year in E. Asia. The A350-1000s will be here in 2 years even after new and converted ex-Latam 27 A350s and A330NEOs enter service in the next 2 years.
UA is adding narrowbodies out of NRT because adding a bunch of capacity hasn't worked and DL is growing anyway.
AA isn't even playing so it is DL and UA who are trying to outsmart each other.
btw, some of these people aren't smart enough to realize that the sooner they just accept what other people say, the less those other people might say.
But some of these folks aren't the sharpest knives in the kitchen - but they certainly aren't stupid.
small person
This could be the start of United serving many new markets to the US using 737's for the first leg.
Kaohsiung, Taiwan, ROC
Taichung, Taiwan, ROC
Macau
Busan, Korea
Clark, Philippines
Hiroshima, Japan (no local traffic)
Danang, Vietnam
Bandar Seri Begewan, Brunei
They already have a very successful TPE route. At worst it takes like 2 hours by high speed rail to go from TPE to those places you listed in Taiwan. No one in their right mind wants to fly to NRT, transfer onto a United narrowbody to then arrive at one of these airports, which still won't be your final destination
Nobody?
I would fly to Japan then connect to Taipei. TPE is Taoyuan. TSA is Taipei (Songshan).
As a person living in southern Taiwan, can tell you that it’s much preferred to fly out of Kaohsiung if possible, the train ride seems to be just under 2 hours but don’t forget commuting to/from train station, and you need to connect to another subway line from Taoyuan HSR to TPE. Imagine that with your luggages.
Flights from KHH to NRT are in high demand too with LF consistently over 90%, so seems...
As a person living in southern Taiwan, can tell you that it’s much preferred to fly out of Kaohsiung if possible, the train ride seems to be just under 2 hours but don’t forget commuting to/from train station, and you need to connect to another subway line from Taoyuan HSR to TPE. Imagine that with your luggages.
Flights from KHH to NRT are in high demand too with LF consistently over 90%, so seems there is a potential considering 5th freedom plus connecting traffic to the US.
Why has travel out of Guam been down post pandemic? Given recent political developments in the Pacific, it seems to me like Guam is uniquely suited to take on the “Western outpost in Asia” role which Hong Kong once had, particularly pre-handover. I guess perhaps Guam cannot take this role as easily because Hong Kong always held an extremely lenient visa policy, even back in UK days?
If the dates were more reasonable, United may be able to fill flights. It is cheaper to fly to ICN, then Saipan instead of flying to Saipan directly from Guam. $586 GUM to Saipan (45minutes), $1200 GUM to Palau(2 hours), GUM to Osaka $586(3.5 hours). GUM to Korea on a Korean based airline $300.
Not to be outdone, American plans to add even more flights from Dallas to El Paso
At this point, the OMAAT users are only thinking about discussing how would Tim Dunn's react whenever something happens. The name OMAAT suggests that this site focuses on airline miles, but almost everyone besides Ben is talking about Tim Dunm only nowadays.
This is outrageous.
I agree. We should all be focused on what Delta is doing.
Let's be clear that there are a handful of people on this and other sites that can't stand that someone else understands the airline industry better than they do, uses data to prove his point, and isn't afraid to say who is doing best what it is supposed to do.
Flying beyond Tokyo is not a new idea.
UA has an impressive network but they make far less money than DL per seat mile not...
Let's be clear that there are a handful of people on this and other sites that can't stand that someone else understands the airline industry better than they do, uses data to prove his point, and isn't afraid to say who is doing best what it is supposed to do.
Flying beyond Tokyo is not a new idea.
UA has an impressive network but they make far less money than DL per seat mile not just across the Pacific but also across the Atlantic. Size simply does not translate into better profitability - which is why UA exists, not to burn the most jet fuel or fly to the most exotic destinations.
Delta's dual hubs in New York City are far from the same thing as dual international hubs in Tokyo, London, or Paris; it is just the folks supporting dual hubs at NRT and HND that can't see that no other city hosts two competing longhaul international hubs.
GUM is weak from Japan but so is the US including Hawaii. United is simply rearranging the deck chairs on its Pacific network that doesn't make money when DL's does and makes less even on an annual basis per seat mile.
there are a handful of people that can't stand to hear anyone say that and so do their best to denigrate every conversation.
They are really small people. Very small people.
Please stop impersonating me #Delta #DeltaForever #Delta4Lyfe
Somehow no one is able to critically think here. The smaller of the dual airport systems are usually more conveniently located for point to point connections like TSA vs TPE, LGA vs JFK, ORY vs CDG, GMP vs ICN, so on and so forth.
NRT is objectively more poorly located for point to point, while also having less ability to connect passengers compared to HND.
And that is why the NRT/HND dual hub system is a problem.
Thinking critically would reveal that Delta is the greatest company that has ever existed in human history. Simple as that. Don't be one of a handful of people that can't stand to hear anyone say that and so do their best to denigrate every conversation. That would make you a really small person.
Skews data to prove his point. Doesn’t understand critical thinking. Shills for Delta. Denigrates those who disagree with him. Has very thin skin.
your statements couldn't be the opposite of reality.
1. you and others can't accept real data that shows that UA underperforms DL including on the bottom line. DL posted a $2 billion larger profit than UA in 2023.
2. critical thinking ON YOUR PART would be showing us why UA underperforms and how they can fix it.
3. For someone that is thin-skinned, I keep coming back and I use my real name...
your statements couldn't be the opposite of reality.
1. you and others can't accept real data that shows that UA underperforms DL including on the bottom line. DL posted a $2 billion larger profit than UA in 2023.
2. critical thinking ON YOUR PART would be showing us why UA underperforms and how they can fix it.
3. For someone that is thin-skinned, I keep coming back and I use my real name while you and others mock me instead of discussing the topic.
As is typical, more of the replies are about me than UA because a handful of people can't debate the facts and accept that some people have different opinions = and facts.
It is the mere fact that you and others bring me into the discussion before I ever join it and then attack people instead of debate ideas that proves that you post from a position of weakness.
Timmy, I’ve never, not once, ever shilled for UA (or any other airline). Unlike you. Never. Not once. I just know that you are such a blowhard and thin skinned. You misread data all the time and reach fallacious conclusions.
Nobody is shilling for anyone. You just don't want to accept data that I know and which UA execs know.
AA is not even profitable flying the Atlantic or Pacific.
UA manages to deliver $2 billion less in profits despite flying more ASMs. Instead of attacking people that know the facts and know why, how about you and others start explaining why UA underperforms instead of shooting the messenger? And if you can't...
Nobody is shilling for anyone. You just don't want to accept data that I know and which UA execs know.
AA is not even profitable flying the Atlantic or Pacific.
UA manages to deliver $2 billion less in profits despite flying more ASMs. Instead of attacking people that know the facts and know why, how about you and others start explaining why UA underperforms instead of shooting the messenger? And if you can't explain, then quit being so jealous of someone else speaking about facts you don't even know.
You do realize that UA has just released another round of transpacific cuts which will address UA's underperformance across the Pacific this past winter?
If UA's internet engaged employee fans weren't so hellbent on accusing other people of everything and could deal w/ the issues, OMAAT and other sites would have a whole lot less comments about me.
Today is the best day to start your new life as a contributor to aviation social media instead of hiding in the bushes taking potshots.
Delta
JP, the day Tim Dipstick doesn’t mention Delta in a comment, I’ll send you $1000.
just don't let anyone call hubbing at NRT "innovative" or "creative"
Pioneering
^ this guy gets it
As many commenters observed, United has slim chance to success on routes where local carriers serve with widebodies from Narita (BKK, SIN…). Destinations where only served by LCCs or narrrowbodies from Narita have higher chance, such as Busan, Kaohsiung and Clark. Even Seoul Incheon could make some sense as United will lose Asiana as partner eventually and ANA only serves Seoul Gimpo from Haneda (more convenient if Seoul is the destination).
I'm guessing since Cebu is their first foray back into fifth freedom they will be looking at smaller markets where a United passenger would want to go and stay on the carrier the whole trip vs transferring to a non-JV partner or LCC/ULCC.
Their product is subpar compared to local airlines that fly widebodies and have better seats and meals.
Maybe in ANA’s (or JAL) biz class the seats & meals aboard their wide-bodies will be better than the recliners on UA’s narrow-body 737s.
But, at least on ANA, while the seats in Premium Economy (PE) of course will be better than Economy Plus (E+) on their wide-bodies (assuming they’re operated to CBU & similar), the meals will likely be every bit as awful as those served on United, if United serves meals on mid-haul,...
Maybe in ANA’s (or JAL) biz class the seats & meals aboard their wide-bodies will be better than the recliners on UA’s narrow-body 737s.
But, at least on ANA, while the seats in Premium Economy (PE) of course will be better than Economy Plus (E+) on their wide-bodies (assuming they’re operated to CBU & similar), the meals will likely be every bit as awful as those served on United, if United serves meals on mid-haul, international flights, that is, since ANA’s PE meals are mostly the same as those served in regular economy class.
And trust me, ANA’s meals, at least the ones we had in PE JFK-HND-SIN 18 months ago, were awful, especially the breakfast served aboard the HND-SIN flight (also in PE), which is among the worst inflight meals *EVER* tasted (it was utterly inedible after two bites & even worse than the flat out awful economy class meals on Delta’s ICN-ATL flight taken this past November).*
Obviously, ANA’s economy class meals, which are the same as those served in PE, will be just as awful as the meals we had in PE.
As for economy class seat width & row pitch, ANA’s 777s & 787s are the same 10- & 9- abreast, respectively, so there’s no material difference in width between ANA’s wide-bodies & UA’s narrow-body 737s.
However, there may be additional comfort for row pitch, depending on the aircraft used, for wide-bodies if they’re the ones with 34”.
Otherwise, with 31-32” pitch for regional wide-bodies & narrow-bodies, the difference between United’s Guam-based 737s may be nominal.
*Fortunately, our PE fares included lounge access at JFK & HND airports before departure(s)/during the HND layover, so the barely edible (JFK-HND) & utterly inedible (HND-SIN) meals, while a let down, were offset by the food available in the lounges! But, for those without lounge access, ANA’s economy class meals as we remember them, were awful, especially the intra-Asia flight which was 7.5 hours, so it’s hard to imagine how ANA would be better TYO-CBU than United.
And FWIW, ANA’s inflight entertainment catalog is very shallow, so most American’s might find United’s IFE far more worthwhile than ANA’s!
Being able to board efficiently in 15m for flights in Japan and not being abused by the staff is enough reason to fly ANA/JAL instead of United.
Maybe United is not profitable from Guam, because they have ridiculous prices and struggle to fill some planes. 40 minutes flight to Saipan is $600 rt, Palau 2h flight $1000 return.
or over $2500 r/t for travel to Guam from the mainland in ECONOMY!!!
Far cry from the days when NW had NRT as a hub for it's Pacific 747s. When all those flights went to board it was crazy.
Delta
Cebu sees a TON of traffic and has direct flights to a lot of major cities in Asia and beyond, so this is a good strategy for United and even though I hate long flights on single aisle planes this does give me an easier option for getting to my family in the Philippines using United miles as PH is not always the easiest place to get to on miles (United or others).
Does United have the right to fly 5th freedom flights within Asia. I'm guessing they do from Tokyo to Cebu but beyond that, where else can they to from Tokyo?
I would challenge the writer and readers of this column to dig a little deeper into the situation on Guam instead of praising United's creativity. #monopoly #pricegouging
Can you explain for the uninformed
It's not that hard to figure out. Guam is a 99% United monopoly. They can fix the prices to be whatever they want since they have no choices. With Guam being a remote island, it's not like the people have alternative modes of transportation either.
In fact, when Guam was hit by a natural disaster recently, the government needed to step in to address the ridiculous prices.
Are these Fifth Freedom flights?
yes. US airlines still have very extensive 5th freedom rights beyond NRT but not beyond HND.
DL tried to move its NRT hub to HND but the Japanese would not give 5th freedom rights or slots at HND.
ICN is a larger local market than NRT alone. ICN makes better sense as a hub than NRT now.
ICN makes better sense if you have a partner there. IF you dont have a partner, it doesnt. And one of the partners is about to go away.
What about Delta?
Yes. Old PamAm rights. UA had quite a DC-10 operation from Tokyo back in the 90s, before SGN.
I just don't see how this is appealing when you have widebody flights with better hard product and East Asian airlines offering superior food and service. Not to mention more frequencies and staff for delays and other issues.
I was going to say the same thing. You fly 10-12 hours from the US to Japan in a flat bed, you get to NRT crushed from jet lag and cabin pressure and needing a shower, and then board a 737 for another flight? Some of those flights are long - SIN, BKK, etc. I would not be looking forward to being upright for 5 hours on the connection. No thanks.
They're not planning on flying to SIN or BKK, at least they havent said so. They fly to SIN nonstop from the US. They're flying to destinations such as Cebu that dont have any other way to get there. That's the thing they're doing. You wont see Bangkok or Singapore.
CEBU used to have nonstop on some carrier from LAX and I think it went away....Also the article was a good one, I think and fair. United was going to fly to Cebu city and it was postponed. Is there another startup date now?
ANA flies to a lot of secondary locations in East Asia with narrowbodies. I assume United is not going to try routes like NRT-SEL but more like Cebu and other difficult to reach locations.
ANA flies to a lot of secondary locations in East Asia with narrowbodies. I assume United is not going to try routes like NRT-SEL but more like Cebu and other difficult to reach locations.
My guess is they won't fly to larger cities like BKK but serve smaller markets where a 737 makes sense, like Cebu. It wouldn't work on a 787 from SFO but makes sense as a one stop from the US on a widebody transferring to a narrowbody. I'm sure there are other short hop markets were they could find some demand and offer a one stop service.
AA maybe you should do something too
Meanwhile, AA is on their back urinating on themselves.
Would love to see a NRT hub for UA. ICN would be awesome, as would BKK if the range could work for a 737 (not sure a non Max 737 could do it). HKG would be nice too.
Except they have moved a lot of their US flights to HND.
Love it!
Just returned from a Polaris trip to HND few weeks ago and heading over via ITA business at the end of the month… then flying JAL J to Southeast Asia. Having a United hub at NRT would be great! Sign me up!!
(Too bad Delta dismantled their HUB, used to take NRT to SIN on the 763)
first, hubbing in Tokyo goes all the way back to post WWII and was a reflection of the limitations of aircraft to fly deeper into Asia and also the US' role in rebuilding Japan after the war. And Northwest led in that effort. When Narita airport opened, US carrier flights were moved from Haneda until a few years ago. The notion of a hub in Tokyo isn't new. NW and later DL operated narrowbodies alongside...
first, hubbing in Tokyo goes all the way back to post WWII and was a reflection of the limitations of aircraft to fly deeper into Asia and also the US' role in rebuilding Japan after the war. And Northwest led in that effort. When Narita airport opened, US carrier flights were moved from Haneda until a few years ago. The notion of a hub in Tokyo isn't new. NW and later DL operated narrowbodies alongside widebodies beyond NRT.
United's purchase of Pan Am's Pacific operation in the 80s allowed them to start flying nonstop as aircraft range increased. UA says it won't return to using widebodies beyond NRT but they will use narrowbodies. Having a GUM pilot base cuts some of the costs that made using narrowbodies within Asia prohibitive for DL.
And let's not also forget that NRT is doing poorly as well as GUM, even if NRT might not be as bad on a traffic basis. The Yen is strong which makes travel to any US Dollar denominated destination expensive; Hawaii is also being badly hurt.
But the opening of HND and NRT flights - which still have fairly low load factors - confirmed by Cranky's analysis just a few months ago - makes it harder than ever to get decent fares on US-NRT flights.
UA and AA committed to NRT as part of getting joint ventures with NH and JL respectively. Hubbing at NRT while also serving HND for the local market is pushing down AA and UA's profitability.
DL wisely realized that opening HND to more US capacity would hurt NRT and is now hubbing 800 miles east at ICN while AA and UA try to support operations at two Tokyo airports.
UA is trying to salvage its JV NRT hub but will likely continue to not generate transpacific margins as long as DL as long as it has competing TPAC operations in the same city.
Tim, the JPY is very WEAK right now in comparison to USD...
yep... I got that backward.
The dollar is strong relative to the yen. The yen is weak.
The impact to US denominated destinations is real and that part of the statement is correct.
btw, I still don't read your site but do people still come and fake being me?
You should read my site! It's not all garbage. ;)
Yes, there was someone who posted under your name yesterday. Are you saying that is not you?
I didn't say your site is garbage, Matthew. It simply duplicates most of the content that is on other sites so there is no reason for me to contribute to it and thus any one that posts using my name or any manipulation is a fraud.
It's probably a SWISS typo.
TD: "The Yen is strong."
LALF: Tim, the JPY is very WEAK
@Tim Dunn,
“The yen is strong.”
Far from it!
Tim - the yen is weak. That's what makes traveling to dollar destinations expensive for Japanese people right now.
@Jason, well aware.
DELTA DELTA DELTA
If Delta has a splut hub in New York, it's genius.
If United/Nippon has a dual hub in Tokyo, it's a terrible idea.
Any move by Delta is obviously superior because Delta is more profitable than United and any idea of United's is stupid because they make less money than Delta.
I guess if United ever passes Delta in profitability Tim Dunn will flip his logic 180 degrees?
No. Delta forever.
surely you realize that 1. LGA is an (almost) domestic only airport 2. DL currently flies more flights from ALL 3 NYC airports than UA flies from LGA and EWR 3. DL carries the most domestic local market passengers 4. UA has EWR and IAD as their East coast hubs while DL has BOS, JFK and ATL for international travel and on a combined basis, DL is larger on the east coast than UA.
Delta
"The yen is strong"
??????????????????????????????????
this is only happening bc Delta passed on this idea first
Some of you all are so missing the point! These are never going to SIN or HKG. Nor markets that NH serves from NRT. But routes (like CEB) that have US demand, but too small for service from SFO or on a ANA widebody.
Delta never passed on this as they never had a narrowbody fleet in the Pacific, that came from CO. In the era of the merger Continental was flying NRT-HKG and HKG-SGN...
Some of you all are so missing the point! These are never going to SIN or HKG. Nor markets that NH serves from NRT. But routes (like CEB) that have US demand, but too small for service from SFO or on a ANA widebody.
Delta never passed on this as they never had a narrowbody fleet in the Pacific, that came from CO. In the era of the merger Continental was flying NRT-HKG and HKG-SGN for UA. But I would not expect these new routes to look like that, but it gives you some idea of the range even the 737-824 has.