I don’t know what’s wrong with people, though kudos to the hotel for at least (sort of) doing the right thing, once this incident came to light. Thanks to View from the Wing for flagging this.
In this post:
The Liberty Hotel Boston harasses woman in bathroom
CBS has the story of an event that happened at The Liberty Hotel Boston, a Marriott Luxury Collection property. On the afternoon of Saturday, May 3, 2025, a lesbian couple attended a Kentucky Derby party at the hotel. Not that this should matter, but it’s worth mentioning that they’re both cis women, so they were both born women and identify as women.
Anyway, the two had to use the bathroom, which is where this incident unfolded. One of the women was waiting at the sinks, while the other women was in a stall. According to the woman in the stall:
“All of a sudden there was banging on the door. I pulled my shorts up. I hadn’t even tied them. One of the security guards was there telling me to get out of the bathroom, that I was a man in the women’s bathroom. I said, ‘I’m a woman.'”
So she quickly pulled up her pants, and was then escorted out of the bathroom by the (male) security guard. Women waiting in line were reportedly directing comments at her, like “get him out of here,” and “he’s a creep.” Once in the lobby, the security guard asked the couple for their IDs to check their gender. At that point things got heated, and the couple was ultimately told to leave the hotel.
Initially, the hotel claimed that “several women alerted security of two adults sharing a bathroom stall.” That’s an accusation the couple vehemently denies. I’m inclined to believe them, especially since the security guard immediately focused on the gender of the woman in the bathroom, rather than whether there had been multiple people in a stall. For that matter, even if it were true, that doesn’t justify the response, which was having them prove their gender (separate from people sharing a stall).
Of course gender and bathroom use (and sports, for that matter) has become a hot button political topic in recent times. Surely we can all agree that it’s a little absurd when someone who was born a woman is heckled for using the women’s restroom. Of course there’s also an irony to a man being called into a women’s restroom to try to prove the gender of someone using it.
The hotel suspends security guard following incident
The Liberty Hotel Boston has concluded its investigation into the incident, and has suspended the security guard from his position. The hotel has also stated that all staff are being retrained “on inclusive practices and guest interaction protocols,” and the hotel is making a donation to a local LGBTQ+ organization. Per a statement from the hotel:
“The Liberty Hotel is and always will be an ally of the LGBTQ+ community and a place where everyone is welcome and celebrated. We will continue to educate and train of our team to ensure that everyone feels safe and accepted within our four walls and guests who do not show tolerance and acceptance towards others will be removed.”
I very much appreciate that statement, especially about clearly laying out that those who don’t show tolerance to others will be removed. While that’s a step in the right direction, the couple claims that they still haven’t received a public apology, nor a retraction of the hotel’s original claims, to clarify that there was only one person in the stall.
Bottom line
The Liberty Hotel Boston has been forced to issue an apology, after a woman using the bathroom at the hotel was accused of being a man, and was escorted out of the bathroom, and forced to prove her gender. The woman was both born a woman and identifies as a woman, so that’s a pretty bad mistake for the hotel to make.
The hotel has issued an apology, suspended the security guard, and has promised to remove any guests who don’t show tolerance and acceptance toward others.
Damn what a country
!!!!!
I feel bad for the security guard. Some Karen probably ratted on the woman to the security guard, and he was just doing his job.
As can be seen in the photos, this woman can easily pass for a man. So it'd be very easy for an unsuspecting security guard to take action.
You might be able to squint and be ok with the guard politely checking. But so zealously prosecuting the supposed male in a bathroom with such aggressiveness? No.
Not political but a practical statement.
The USA is no longer a Biden country, as you know it is a Trump country, so things are going to be a bit different.
Of course there will be confusion at first like this incident, granted it is a BIG change in a very short time.
It will get better.
Disagree. While Trump is president, a nation is not defined in totality by who their president is.
Also, that's a weird take. Following your logic, how will it get better? You seem to be implying that we'll all come around to Trump's way of thinking, and that will constitute getting "better". I can confidently tell you that's not happening.
However, if you meant eventually the fever of MAGA will pass and we'l attempt to resume...
Disagree. While Trump is president, a nation is not defined in totality by who their president is.
Also, that's a weird take. Following your logic, how will it get better? You seem to be implying that we'll all come around to Trump's way of thinking, and that will constitute getting "better". I can confidently tell you that's not happening.
However, if you meant eventually the fever of MAGA will pass and we'l attempt to resume our upward trajectory on the moral arc of the universe, then sure - I can buy that on some level.
I'm sure it's not the first time this has happened to this woman. If you're going to shave your head, dress like a man (with hoodie, ski jacket, pants, etc), get your arms tattooed, and talk and act like a man (not that there's anything wrong with wanting to be a man), then of course people are going to think you're a man! Even the other women in the restroom thought she was a man!...
I'm sure it's not the first time this has happened to this woman. If you're going to shave your head, dress like a man (with hoodie, ski jacket, pants, etc), get your arms tattooed, and talk and act like a man (not that there's anything wrong with wanting to be a man), then of course people are going to think you're a man! Even the other women in the restroom thought she was a man! That's why the guard was notified in the first place, because they thought a man was trying to spy on women using the bathroom! It's not the security guard's fault that she looks like a man!!! Get a clue people!!! They probably thought the two of them were hooking up in the bathroom!
Yes, yes, women who don't dress and act feminine must be dragged away by security! /s
Do you hear yourself talking!?
@Tom_of_few_miles, no one was "dragged away," and no one said they should be (obviously they shouldn't); this is just another dishonest strawman argument. (Whoops, straw-woman?)
I think this is why we need gender neutral bathrooms.
A sidenote comment. I’m exceptionally proud that I grew up in Kansas City. NKC the first school district in the country to renovate bathrooms to gender neutral. NKC High School the first in the country to ever vote for a trans for Prom Queen. And more…
Who’d think? Kansas City the most progressive city in the country.
Silly message I sent. Have a fun night!
I think it's a nice message, Leigh.
Why is it the one side feels they have the authority and power to determine rules in a way that clearly only advantages THEM?
The security guard clearly overreacted and exposed his own biases, but the ugliest part of this story to me was the women outside the bathroom who initiated the complaint and hollered ugly BS at this woman/victim. Will they ever consider that someone might think THEY'RE "too butch", or maybe even "too...
Why is it the one side feels they have the authority and power to determine rules in a way that clearly only advantages THEM?
The security guard clearly overreacted and exposed his own biases, but the ugliest part of this story to me was the women outside the bathroom who initiated the complaint and hollered ugly BS at this woman/victim. Will they ever consider that someone might think THEY'RE "too butch", or maybe even "too made up," artificial, and not like a "real woman" and call the guards on THEM mid-pee?
As a man I am tired of being left out of this discussion. My plan going forward, starting with this hotel in question (since it's in my hometown) and all public restrooms in the future, is to go in and demand that security verifies my gender with a physical examination. A nice cupping would be fine, but I wouldn't mind a vigorous tug.... or three.
OR.... as others have suggested, we could just start minding our own damn business!
“Why is it the one side feels they have the authority and power to determine rules in a way that clearly only advantages THEM?”
Oh, sweet irony…
(And why do they always bust out the weird genital-inspection fantasies?!? Please keep that to yourself…)
So not to knitpick, but one is born male or female, not a man or a woman. If that were the case, R. Kelly wouldn't be behind bars but parked in front of a middle school trying to meet new women.
To sum up all the comments on here from the anti-trans hysterics, it seems that our allegedly women protecting freedom loving right wing friends are totally cool with a man entering the women's restroom to ID the occupants any time some rando accuses said occupants of being male. I guess women having their bathrooms potentially invaded by male security 24/7 is the ironic price of women's freedom & safety.
Nothing says “I’m arguing in good faith” quite like labeling the other side “hysterics” and blanketing them all as “right wing” (lifelong liberal myself).
If you read the article, in this case, the women actively *encouraged* the male security guard to enter (comments like “get him out of here”); consent does, in fact, matter. It’s certainly imperfect; if a female security guard had been on duty, that would have been better, but it seems like that wasn’t the case.
The base case of all this anti Trans hysteria (which is, in fact, what it is) is that we need to keep men out of women's bathrooms. Unless, apparently, some women ask for other women's privacy to be invaded by men in women's restrooms.... in which case I guess dudes in the women's room is just fine.
All snark aside, realize what you're advocating: that anytime woman A doesn't meet woman B's idea of femininity...
The base case of all this anti Trans hysteria (which is, in fact, what it is) is that we need to keep men out of women's bathrooms. Unless, apparently, some women ask for other women's privacy to be invaded by men in women's restrooms.... in which case I guess dudes in the women's room is just fine.
All snark aside, realize what you're advocating: that anytime woman A doesn't meet woman B's idea of femininity or womanhood, available security (including men) should be sent in the women's room for mandatory gender ID checks. Is this the world in which you really want to live?
Not sure what you're getting at. This security guard was enforcing a widely accepted social custom that's been the norm for centuries. As can be seen in the photo, this woman can easily pass for a man. The "Karen" who ratted on her was also easily fooled. He was just doing his job.
There are many instances where men might need to enter women only spaces. What if there is a medical emergency in...
Not sure what you're getting at. This security guard was enforcing a widely accepted social custom that's been the norm for centuries. As can be seen in the photo, this woman can easily pass for a man. The "Karen" who ratted on her was also easily fooled. He was just doing his job.
There are many instances where men might need to enter women only spaces. What if there is a medical emergency in the bathroom and only male paramedics show up? What if a crime is being committed and only male police officers show up?
I'm not sure that gender ID checks are on the same level of import as active crimes or medical emergencies, but that's just me.
Ben - please don't try to become Gary's blog. I stopped reading him just because of content like this
One of the unforeseen victims of trans visibility is ugly women.
Ugly women have been harassed and been the butt of jokes for years, this is nothing new. No one should be harassed in a restroom.
To insinuate that the victim of this incident is ugly is an insult at best.
I am so disgusted by the majority of responses to this story that I would spit F@CKING nickels !
Let's just say... for shits and grins....that it WAS a guy doing their business in a stall.
SO WHAT ???? ITS a STALL and they were going to the toilet and leaving.
And that is NOT the case here. Some woman whether they are LGBTQ or not, present as masculine.
Some men present as more androgynous (big word..I know).
They are all still people....wanting to go to the toilet.
And once again...
“A male adult entering a female space that women and girls are using on the understanding that they are female-only *is* violating the boundaries of every woman and girl in the room, yes.” –Helen Staniland
So yes, if it had been a male, it would have been a problem.
This was clearly a case where someone was mistaken, so the woman was asked to leave the restroom and show her ID to...
And once again...
“A male adult entering a female space that women and girls are using on the understanding that they are female-only *is* violating the boundaries of every woman and girl in the room, yes.” –Helen Staniland
So yes, if it had been a male, it would have been a problem.
This was clearly a case where someone was mistaken, so the woman was asked to leave the restroom and show her ID to confirm she was female, which seems entirely reasonable. The details of that part are left out, but she...apparently refused? or got belligerent? and was asked to leave the hotel (the article just says "things got heated," which leaves a lot to the imagination). It sounds like if anything, the security guard's only mistake was being too aggressive initially (if he was really pounding/banging on the doors, was that really necessary?).
Finally, no one's denying that "they are still people." Indeed, like all people, they are either male or female, and have the right to use the facilities corresponding to their sex.
Balanced response.
In California, more than Half of the women pee standing up in the same Bathroom!
Even the ones with beards, and bulges in their skirts!
This is what it's come to. Right wing hate has propagated hateful responses
No, radical extremist trans activism caused this. Nobody ever cared that transsexual women used the ladies room, and then along came the activists who said that anyone who says they're trans is trans, and before you know it there are creepy men exploiting the situation for their own gratification. The Wi Spa incident is a perfect case in point - a woman who complained about a male-bodied person in the women's shower with his junk...
No, radical extremist trans activism caused this. Nobody ever cared that transsexual women used the ladies room, and then along came the activists who said that anyone who says they're trans is trans, and before you know it there are creepy men exploiting the situation for their own gratification. The Wi Spa incident is a perfect case in point - a woman who complained about a male-bodied person in the women's shower with his junk on full display was pilloried in the left-leaning media as a 'bigot' because the individual claimed to be a trans woman. Later it emerged that the man had a number of convictions for sexual offences against women. That's what safeguarding is about - creeps and perverts will exploit the tiniest loophole to get what they want, so a blanket exclusion has become necessary.
Thank you, Pete. It's always refreshing to see other people who have been paying attention to what's been going on the last 4-5 years on this topic and approach it with nuance. Wish it wasn't seen as such a polarizing, left-vs-right, all-or-nothing issue (and that any disagreement wasn't automatically falsely equated with hate and bigotry) by so many. Cheers
What I see in these comments is a whole lot of men who are basically telling women that they're overreacting to having trans-identified malea use their single-sex spaces. Men just don't understand female vulnerability. Besides
which, it's not anyone's job to "validate" someone else's identity by ignoring their alarm bells and potentially putting themselves in danger. Some of you need to start thinking outside your bubble, and maybe listening to a few of the...
What I see in these comments is a whole lot of men who are basically telling women that they're overreacting to having trans-identified malea use their single-sex spaces. Men just don't understand female vulnerability. Besides
which, it's not anyone's job to "validate" someone else's identity by ignoring their alarm bells and potentially putting themselves in danger. Some of you need to start thinking outside your bubble, and maybe listening to a few of the many, many women who talk about this issue.
Strongly disagree. It's usually men telling us that we need to be concerned about trans women ( or "trans-identified malea [sic]" as you put it) in our bathrooms. The last thing I need is another man mansplaining my "female vulnerability" to me.
I've never been afraid of trans women in restrooms (lived in LA for a minute, so it happened a a few times) and trans women are more likely to be victims of...
Strongly disagree. It's usually men telling us that we need to be concerned about trans women ( or "trans-identified malea [sic]" as you put it) in our bathrooms. The last thing I need is another man mansplaining my "female vulnerability" to me.
I've never been afraid of trans women in restrooms (lived in LA for a minute, so it happened a a few times) and trans women are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. If your big argument is that some women are afraid of trans women, that may say more about the effects of fear mongering men constantly banging this drum than anything else.
As I said above, perhaps you need to start thinking outside your bubble and listening to women who aren't in the same situation as you. Your consent is not permission on behalf of all women. Oh, and thanks for the entirely predictable intersectional womansplaining rebuttal, even if you obviously don't get my point.
I get your point. You're just wrong. And once again, explaining to a woman when she can or cannot speak for women.
Thank you for your sane response. I feel really bad for these two women for sure. It's horrible that this is what happened. But this a direct result of policies and legislation that allows men who self-ID as women to use women's intimate spaces. It places their rights above the rights of biological women who simply aren't comfortable with men in their spaces.
Well, she DOES have a men-ish look.
So what?
So it's understandable that such a mistake was made by the other guests "get him out of here" and the security guard.
The only reason this has been an issue lately is because a large number of male individuals have demanded the right to access what are supposed to be single-sex spaces for women (i.e. those who are female).
Last month (April 16 to be exact), the UK Supreme Court unanimously ruled that under the Equality Act, sex means biological sex - the sex you were born as - and thus, single-sex spaces are determined by biology,...
The only reason this has been an issue lately is because a large number of male individuals have demanded the right to access what are supposed to be single-sex spaces for women (i.e. those who are female).
Last month (April 16 to be exact), the UK Supreme Court unanimously ruled that under the Equality Act, sex means biological sex - the sex you were born as - and thus, single-sex spaces are determined by biology, not identity. To me, this is common sense, and it's a shame it took a Supreme Court to make that determination; maybe we - and the world - need to follow suit. (I hate that this gets politicized, because again, 10-15 years ago, this wouldn't have been a divisive issue at all; I'm a progressive liberal, at least by 2015 standards, never voted for a Republican for president in my life [all blue + one third-party], but man.)
Anyway, it's understandable that now women are on edge about possible men in their spaces, and a few wrong accusations will be made. It's not the fault of the women who are on edge patrolling their spaces. It's not the fault of the wrongly-accused women, unless they've gone out of their way to look/present like a man. It's the fault of the males giving women a valid reason to suspect there may be males in their spaces to begin with.
As women's rights activist Helen Staniland put it: "We should be grateful to women who are prepared to challenge people they feel might be in the wrong space. Challenging people's behaviour is a socially accepted means of rule enforcement that we all rely on - we should be pleased that they are looking out for the more vulnerable."
So how *should* this situation have been handled? From the wording, it sounds like someone else thought the short-haired woman was a man and reported her to the (male) security guard, who took their word for it and entered the bathroom to remove "him," as the other women in the bathroom encouraged him to (with comments like "get him out of here"). Should only a female security guard have entered? What if no female security guards were on duty (which I suspect was probably the case)? Then the security guard asked for ID to confirm their sex (not "gender" - those mean the same to most of us, but "gender" has now been politicized by many to mean what one identifies as - though some states allow people to falsify their IDs based on self-identification; not sure if the couple was from such a state). Asking for ID seems like...an entirely reasonable next step?
Ben states "at that point, things got heated," which leaves out important details - who escalated things and why? Did the short-haired woman refuse to show her ID? That would lead a reasonable person to think maybe she's really male and has something to hide. Either way, not complying with a security guard's reasonable request is a good way to get kicked out. (On the other hand, if the security guard escalated things by positively accusing her of being a male or a creep before even asking for/checking her ID, that's a different story, but it doesn't sound like that's what happened.)
So...what part of what happened was wrong, and what should have happened instead, given all the facts of the situation? (If your answer would be a thoughtless "just mind your own business, who cares if there really might have been a male in there without the women's consent," maybe - respectfully - don't bother answering and do some reflection instead.) The only thing I can come up with is that maybe the security guard was too aggressive, but what's the right amount of 'aggressive' for that situation: just walking up, lightly knocking on the stall door, and softly asking for ID to confirm that she's female?
(As a side note, I can't help but notice the contradiction in the hotel's statement: they want to "ensure that everyone feels safe and accepted within our walls," yet "guests who do not show tolerance and acceptance toward others will be removed." So what, in the future, they'll remove the woman looking out for her fellow women by reporting that there's a male in the women's restroom, even if she's right? Way to keep everyone "safe and accepted"!)
"It's not the fault of the wrongly-accused women, unless they've gone out of their way to look/present like a man"?
What does that even mean? Are you suggesting this woman was cos-playing at being trans?
Maybe this woman "went out of her way" to look like the way she felt like she wanted to look? Maybe it's no one's business what another woman looks like?
Are we saying that if women have short...
"It's not the fault of the wrongly-accused women, unless they've gone out of their way to look/present like a man"?
What does that even mean? Are you suggesting this woman was cos-playing at being trans?
Maybe this woman "went out of her way" to look like the way she felt like she wanted to look? Maybe it's no one's business what another woman looks like?
Are we saying that if women have short hair then they are to blame for outraged individuals for thinking they are trans? That they should look more feminine? That's barmy.
>The only reason this has been an issue lately is because a large number of male individuals have demanded the right to access what are supposed to be single-sex spaces for women
Citation ABSOLUTELY needed.
And moreso, if a guy is in the ladies room using it for its intended purpose, WHO CARES? If he's harassing people then by all means call security, the individual has now done something to merit removal, and...
>The only reason this has been an issue lately is because a large number of male individuals have demanded the right to access what are supposed to be single-sex spaces for women
Citation ABSOLUTELY needed.
And moreso, if a guy is in the ladies room using it for its intended purpose, WHO CARES? If he's harassing people then by all means call security, the individual has now done something to merit removal, and it's no different than if a woman was in the ladies room harassing people. But simply being physically present in the restroom using the toilet and washing his/her hands? That does not require security to intervene.
@James, of course not; that paragraph is speaking in the general, not about this specific case (“women” in general, not “this woman”); that mainly refers to female individuals who take testosterone to masculinize their appearance (e.g. facial hair) and voice (see paragraph 221 of that UK SC decision), not simply a woman who happens to have short hair. No one’s policing femininity or outraged at someone over “being trans”; they’re upset by people *who are...
@James, of course not; that paragraph is speaking in the general, not about this specific case (“women” in general, not “this woman”); that mainly refers to female individuals who take testosterone to masculinize their appearance (e.g. facial hair) and voice (see paragraph 221 of that UK SC decision), not simply a woman who happens to have short hair. No one’s policing femininity or outraged at someone over “being trans”; they’re upset by people *who are male* (or who they reasonably think are male) entering female spaces, that’s it.
@Dusty, I replied below, but I’ll paste this quote here as well: “A male adult entering a female space that women and girls are using on the understanding that they are female-only *is* violating the boundaries of every woman and girl in the room, yes.” –Helen Staniland
(Oh, and "if a guy is in the ladies room" then he is by definition *not* "using it for its intended purpose", which is to give women and girls a male-free, single-sex space.)
Chris, the point of a restroom is to urinate, defecate, or wash your hands/face/whatever. That some are gender segregated for convenience is incidental and the claim that it's a womens' safe space speaks more to American prudishness than anything else. Plenty of places around the world don't have this problem because bathrooms are shared spaces where the stall is the only "private" place.
If somebody's creeping, by all means call security and kick them...
Chris, the point of a restroom is to urinate, defecate, or wash your hands/face/whatever. That some are gender segregated for convenience is incidental and the claim that it's a womens' safe space speaks more to American prudishness than anything else. Plenty of places around the world don't have this problem because bathrooms are shared spaces where the stall is the only "private" place.
If somebody's creeping, by all means call security and kick them out. But calling security just because somebody who looked like a guy entered the female restroom is hysteria, plain and simple.
Who are all of these males demanding to access single sex spaces intended for women? Trans women have been using bathrooms and going about their business to my knowledge for well over 50 years in these United States. And they weren't making demands, they were just living their lives. What made this an issue was having people like that bitter and miserable Nancy Mace targeting my representative, Sarah McBride simply to be mean. God knows...
Who are all of these males demanding to access single sex spaces intended for women? Trans women have been using bathrooms and going about their business to my knowledge for well over 50 years in these United States. And they weren't making demands, they were just living their lives. What made this an issue was having people like that bitter and miserable Nancy Mace targeting my representative, Sarah McBride simply to be mean. God knows it had nothing to do with McBride putting fear and intimidation in anyone, least of all Mace. It was simply done for publicity, nastiness and to bully someone seen as different because your side won and she wanted to ride the wave of hatred.
And it would make sense to always have female security guards on duty since the objective is to keep women safe and police bodies. With the number of hot trans men out there, having these female born individuals using the bathroom of their birth sex will be causing a hell of a lot of commotion in the future, so hopefully everyone buckles up and prepares themselves for the ride.
“American prudishness” yet most of the women I follow on this issue are liberal feminists from the UK… Interesting. Anyway, this story happened in Boston in the USA, so American standards are the relevant ones that apply here, and in America (as in the UK), we separate shared public restrooms by sex, with very, very few exceptions. If a male walks into a female-only space, he is violating the rights of the women and girls...
“American prudishness” yet most of the women I follow on this issue are liberal feminists from the UK… Interesting. Anyway, this story happened in Boston in the USA, so American standards are the relevant ones that apply here, and in America (as in the UK), we separate shared public restrooms by sex, with very, very few exceptions. If a male walks into a female-only space, he is violating the rights of the women and girls in that space by being there; they do not consent.
Interesting Gish gallop from Shayla. I’ll focus on the last point, the so-called “transman gotcha.” As I’m sure I stated elsewhere, single-sex spaces exist more to protect female people from males than the other way around; they’re a safety and inclusion measure for females. The UK SC judgment I mentioned specifically covers this (paragraph 221), confirming that transmen “could also be excluded [from female spaces] without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken…” Obviously this applies to the UK, not the US, but this seems like a very reasonable standard to follow, as it’s reasonable for women to feel unsafe with a *male-looking* (and/or male-sounding) person in their spaces. And as a (gender-nonconforming) man, I’m not threatened in any way by a female entering the men’s room; if anything, the risk profile is the other way around. So as far as I’m concerned, transmen are more than welcome to use the men’s with me; it’s just males—ALL males—that need to stay out of women’s spaces. Turn the men's into a gender-neutral restroom for all I care (unless the lines get too long!), but keep the women's female-only.
@Chris_W
It boggles my mind that you can't seem to see what a slippery slope this is. It's trad activism and anti-trans rhetoric masquerading as feminism. Trans and androgynous people exist. The idea that people should be harassed just because they don't dress or groom like women traditionally did is abhorrent, because despite all the inflammatory rhetoric over this stuff there's NOT many people trying to creep to begin with.
Here's a novel idea:...
@Chris_W
It boggles my mind that you can't seem to see what a slippery slope this is. It's trad activism and anti-trans rhetoric masquerading as feminism. Trans and androgynous people exist. The idea that people should be harassed just because they don't dress or groom like women traditionally did is abhorrent, because despite all the inflammatory rhetoric over this stuff there's NOT many people trying to creep to begin with.
Here's a novel idea: if somebody is in a "single-sex space" place and actually creeping and not going about their business, then call security. This is not a difficult concept to grasp, and this is how it's been done for decades. This goes the other way too, there's no need for laws saying people identifying as whatever get to use that restroom or shower, since the issue is something that cannot be legislated without subjecting a large number of people to harassment they wouldn't otherwise get, like the couple in this article, or invasive and unconstitutional checks to verify if somebody is what they say they are. So don't legislate who can access what spaces, because you literally can't, but do punish creeper behavior for what it is. Don't assume that just because somebody has a crew cut means they're male, and don't assume they're creeping when they're just washing their hands. It really isn't difficult, it's a mountain made out of a molehill.
"The idea that people should be harassed just because they don't dress or groom like women traditionally did is abhorrent"
Agreed, good thing nobody's advocating for that! Being asked to show ID because you genuinely appear male in a female space is not harassment. As I said multiple places, the security guard may have been overly aggressive in this case (we don't know all the details, but banging on the doors seems likely excessive if...
"The idea that people should be harassed just because they don't dress or groom like women traditionally did is abhorrent"
Agreed, good thing nobody's advocating for that! Being asked to show ID because you genuinely appear male in a female space is not harassment. As I said multiple places, the security guard may have been overly aggressive in this case (we don't know all the details, but banging on the doors seems likely excessive if he was in fact doing that), but based on what we know, it still sounds like he was trying to do the right thing overall.
Was gonna leave it there, but speaking of "abhorrent", I do have to address this: "there's NOT many people trying to creep to begin with"
So what's *your* acceptable number of women r*ped, assaulted, threatened, nonconsensually photographed/recorded, or otherwise creeped-on or made uncomfortable by males taking advantage of now being able to enter female spaces unchallenged?
Mine's zero.
And before anyone says "it's not happening," some collections of examples...
• https://x.com/FedPoasting/status/1616947549742534656
• https://x.com/CaptainVirgilx/status/1550073438307590145
...
Was gonna leave it there, but speaking of "abhorrent", I do have to address this: "there's NOT many people trying to creep to begin with"
So what's *your* acceptable number of women r*ped, assaulted, threatened, nonconsensually photographed/recorded, or otherwise creeped-on or made uncomfortable by males taking advantage of now being able to enter female spaces unchallenged?
Mine's zero.
And before anyone says "it's not happening," some collections of examples...
• https://x.com/FedPoasting/status/1616947549742534656
• https://x.com/CaptainVirgilx/status/1550073438307590145
• An entire thread with many examples: https://x.com/RoseInWanderla1/status/1795647106201661661
@Chris_W
Really? Going to QUOTE me, then say I said something completely different from what you quoted? Try again man. Anecdotes are not statistical data. Being able to find anecdotes does not equate to an increase in the event happening.
Nor did I say ANYWHERE that it's acceptable for crimes to be committed against women. People who do commit such crimes should obviously be put on trial and face punishment if convicted. We could...
@Chris_W
Really? Going to QUOTE me, then say I said something completely different from what you quoted? Try again man. Anecdotes are not statistical data. Being able to find anecdotes does not equate to an increase in the event happening.
Nor did I say ANYWHERE that it's acceptable for crimes to be committed against women. People who do commit such crimes should obviously be put on trial and face punishment if convicted. We could call it a court system, what a novel idea!
What I am saying is that accosting somebody accessing a PUBLIC space solely based on how they look is not ok. And that's exactly what the women who called security did. They saw somebody with a crew cut enter a bathroom and ASSUMED that the person was 1. A man, and 2. about to commit indecent exposure/some other crime/offense. They didn't even look inside to see if what they THOUGHT was going to occur actually did, in which case they would have been well within their rights to call security. And then when the woman left the bathroom with the guard, they harassed her. NONE OF THAT is ok.
And regarding your examples, I'll point out that all of that can happen without men self-identifying as women, and has for millennia. People who commit these crimes tend not to care about whether a space is single-sex or not. We have police and courts for this reason, to apprehend, charge, and punish people when they commit crimes. My position is to let that system keep working as it has. Call police when crimes are actually being committed. Don't harass somebody washing their hands just because they look masculine.
You still aren’t getting it, Dusty…
First (and less importantly), if they had been right about assumption #1 (that the person was male), there’d be no need for #2 (“about to commit indecent exposure/some other crime/offense”), because the offense would have already been committed by their entering a female space.
Second and more importantly, you say: “My position is to let that system keep working as it has.” Me too. The system, as it’s been...
You still aren’t getting it, Dusty…
First (and less importantly), if they had been right about assumption #1 (that the person was male), there’d be no need for #2 (“about to commit indecent exposure/some other crime/offense”), because the offense would have already been committed by their entering a female space.
Second and more importantly, you say: “My position is to let that system keep working as it has.” Me too. The system, as it’s been in place ever since women won the right to single-sex spaces in the first place, is that the spaces are separated by sex (not self-identified “gender identity”). That may not prevent ALL males from entering such spaces, but crucially, it allows them to stand out and be challenged/shamed and potentially face legal or other repercussions if they try to—which is enough to prevent most of the males from entering who otherwise would. If you DISMANTLE that system by allowing anyone to use whichever facility they feel like, and prohibiting people from challenging anyone who appears to be in the wrong space (because there is no more “right” and “wrong” space), you now take away the one thing stopping them from entering. The crimes I mentioned are often crimes of opportunity: give some men the opportunity, and they’ll commit the crime. Keeping spaces sex-separated removes the opportunity. Dismantling that system is a choice, and it is necessarily a choice to increase the number of these crimes that are committed against women. (Note that it’s not necessary for the men to actually identify as women; it’s enough that the safeguard is removed, so they’re no longer challenged—or even if they are, they can lie and SAY they identify as a woman and get to play the victim, too. Indeed, you’ll see this happening in some of the examples I cited. That wouldn’t have happened 15 years ago; it wouldn’t have been allowed.)
As a guy, that’s not something I “got” intuitively. But I’ve been following this issue closely for about 5 years now (that’s when I first noticed people sending death threats and other gruesome things to JK Rowling for speaking up on this topic in a nuanced, level-headed, and frankly compassionate way), which has ultimately involved reading a lot of literature from feminist perspectives. It made me realize just how much I didn’t get—how much I took for granted as a guy. I always thought, “I don’t care if a female comes into the bathroom while I’m in there, so why should it matter the other way around?” That’s the epitome of male privilege. A female entering a male space doesn’t statistically put the men at risk in any significant way; the other way around absolutely does in ways I never even fathomed. I highly recommend listening to women—not just the hip trendy ones, but the older ones with more life experience who have been thinking, speaking, and writing on this for years (the ones some dismiss as “TERFs,” “hags,” “Karens,” or other misogynistic and/or ageist slurs).
I don’t want this issue to be so polarizing, but that’s what happens when one group wants to tear down all boundaries and safeguards that are there for good reason, at the (unwitting?) expense of half of the human population (see Chesterton’s fence). This isn’t some pointless left-right culture war (as I said, I’m on the left myself) or a case of “disagreement = hate/bigotry.” I hope you genuinely read this and take it into consideration.
Imagine someone alerting a security guard of a "man" in the women's room but the someone knows or senses the "man" is in fact a woman . . . irrespective of the woman's sexual orientation . . . and is simply trying to harass. I've known straight women whose gender is not visually apparent. Imagine how they would feel from such an incident.
What happened to Live and Let Live?
Or…
Do to others like you would want them to do to you?
Odious behaviour by the security staff.
Poor poor women.
I will not comment regarding this issue; nothing makes it right. I will state that when travelling I stand guard at the ladies room while my daughter is inside. At MIA near the car rental area I was asked why I was standing there and I explained that in NY men can decide to be female and legally enter. The authorities questioning me were stupefied.
What if it was a man and the guard did nothing?
Damned if you, damned if you don't.
If it was a trans woman and the guard did nothing I guess she would finish her business in the cubicle, wash her hands and head back into the event.
I didn't mean transwomen. I meant what if it was a man
Then he'd probably finish his business and leave, just like pretty much every other man that's had to use the restroom designated for women.
Trans women are male, but it's not the "passing" trans women wanting to pee who are the problem, it's the dodgy self-proclaimed ones who take advantage of the relaxed rules for their own creepy purposes. Many women don't feel safe with obvious men in their single-sex spaces. Ask women. They'll tell you.
Wow Pete. Your comment mischaracterizes the issue in several ways. First, it falsely implies that "relaxed rules" have led to increased safety concerns, but research consistently shows no increase in incidents where inclusive policies exist. Second, it creates a harmful distinction between "passing" and "non-passing" trans women, suggesting some are legitimate while others are "dodgy."
You're also a man claiming to speak for "many women" - basically doing what you accused others of doing...
Wow Pete. Your comment mischaracterizes the issue in several ways. First, it falsely implies that "relaxed rules" have led to increased safety concerns, but research consistently shows no increase in incidents where inclusive policies exist. Second, it creates a harmful distinction between "passing" and "non-passing" trans women, suggesting some are legitimate while others are "dodgy."
You're also a man claiming to speak for "many women" - basically doing what you accused others of doing in another one of your comments. Studies actually show that when bathroom policies are inclusive, everyone is safer - including all women. The greatest documented danger in this situation is what transgender people face: harassment, assault, and health problems from avoiding restrooms altogether.
Well, at least "More Mansplaining"'s username checks out.
I care about things that are actually happening - despite people claiming they "never happen" (or rarely happen). Here's an entire thread of them for reference: https://x.com/RoseInWanderla1/status/1795647106201661661
Two more infographics with more relevant cases:
• https://x.com/CaptainVirgilx/status/1550073438307590145
• https://x.com/FedPoasting/status/1616947549742534656
Single-sex spaces exist to reduce incidents like these and allow people to challenge male-looking individuals trying to enter female spaces (social policing). The "greatest documented danger" is...
Well, at least "More Mansplaining"'s username checks out.
I care about things that are actually happening - despite people claiming they "never happen" (or rarely happen). Here's an entire thread of them for reference: https://x.com/RoseInWanderla1/status/1795647106201661661
Two more infographics with more relevant cases:
• https://x.com/CaptainVirgilx/status/1550073438307590145
• https://x.com/FedPoasting/status/1616947549742534656
Single-sex spaces exist to reduce incidents like these and allow people to challenge male-looking individuals trying to enter female spaces (social policing). The "greatest documented danger" is eroding these boundaries and social policing, leading to more of the above. (And those who identify as trans always have the right to access the bathroom corresponding to their sex; they've never had to "avoid...restrooms altogether".)
Finally, for @Dusty, allow me to quote Helen Staniland again, since her wording tends to knock it out of the park: "A male adult entering a female space that women and girls are using on the understanding that they are female-only *is* violating the boundaries of every woman and girl in the room, yes."
@Pete, if someone is creeping, then you call security or the police. Simply being present is not creeping and as such is not worthy of involving security. It is truly that simple, this insanity about men not being allowed in women's restrooms for any reason at all is exactly that. Insanity. It's like being afraid of getting in an Uber because you think the driver might murder you. A couple high profile media articles doesn't...
@Pete, if someone is creeping, then you call security or the police. Simply being present is not creeping and as such is not worthy of involving security. It is truly that simple, this insanity about men not being allowed in women's restrooms for any reason at all is exactly that. Insanity. It's like being afraid of getting in an Uber because you think the driver might murder you. A couple high profile media articles doesn't mean every Uber driver is a murderer. It's the same kind of hysteria.
And that's besides the point that the women who apparently called security weren't even in the restroom themselves (they were in the line for it), and didn't observe what they claimed to observe. Somehow I don't think they were feeling unsafe when they called security.
doesn't f*cking matter...THEY would have peed and left
Marriott seems to care a bit tol much about Thailand.
Click-bait subject for less discerning individuals to entertain themselves.
Can we move on please?
Dude, scroll on if this one article is not 100pc to your exact tastes.
Thank you for taking the bait James, there is always one …. :-)
Whatever mate.
@Aerob13a
Dude, please stop.
Stop what?
Do tell …. :-)
Ben, where's your usual "according to her side of the story" disclaimer?
On another note, I just stayed at the Liberty hotel, and it's a former jail - very atmospheric! And ironic.
because the hotel already confirmed it and took disciplinary action..?
She 100% looks like a man. That's why other guests were complaining to the guard, and why the guard asked for ID, since they reasonably thought a man was in the bathroom.
But do you not see the irony in having a man in a position of authority storm his way into the women's restroom like this? How does it help the safety of all women if they have to be afraid of a male security guard harassing them in the bathroom at any point? This behavior is a perfect perfect for sexual harassment, because guys like this can just make up a reason go into the bathroom and ask women to prove their gender.
So therefore it's reasonable for a transgender woman who looks like a woman to use the woman's bathroom, because people would reasonably believe they are a woman?
Honestly, imho I don’t care. We all pee and poo. I am also educated about menstrual cycles. In emergencies I’ve used the ladies and if I see a long line, have suggested they use the men’s.
Some women look more masculine, some men look more feminine. Some it’s hard to tell either way. The point is go into the bathroom and do what you need to do without bothering someone else in a stall unless they’re doing something wrong, which she clearly wasn’t
Who cares how this woman looked? Are we to demand all women now have long golden hair and frilly pink dresses to use the ladies? This is the issue now, people are so inflamed about trans issues - and the tiny number of trans people - that they’re making this ridiculous fuss because this woman doesn’t look exactly how they think she should.
Exactly @James. First it was the bob cut destroying American moral values, now it's the crew cut. Conservatives haven't changed, they just built a louder megaphone, but at the end of the day it's much ado about nothing.
Many replies predictably (deliberately?) missing the point...
Other than the initial suspicion that she might have been male, it's not about how a woman looks. She can be as gender-nonconforming as she wants; if she's a woman (female human), she has a right to be in the female restroom. No one's policing femininity; just trying to make sure she is in fact female, not male.
(This is also not a left/right, conservative vs liberal issue....
Many replies predictably (deliberately?) missing the point...
Other than the initial suspicion that she might have been male, it's not about how a woman looks. She can be as gender-nonconforming as she wants; if she's a woman (female human), she has a right to be in the female restroom. No one's policing femininity; just trying to make sure she is in fact female, not male.
(This is also not a left/right, conservative vs liberal issue. I'm a lifelong liberal, but even most people on the left who are paying attention don't agree with this illiberal ideology. Equal human rights are good; special privileges and exemptions from sex-based rules/boundaries aren't.)
In defense of my Lesbian friends - some Lesbians have "butch" haircuts which make them look more masculine. All gender bathrooms would solve this problem immediately.
Please don't get rid of completely private stalls - where else would bible thumping conservative republican men go to have sex with other bible thumping conservative republican men when attending the RNC meetings ?
-- A GWM
I have an even more immediate solution than all-gender bathrooms. Stop caring about this and mind your own business. Do you know why I'm constantly on this website waxing lyrical about the virtues of being equity partner at a top law firm? It's not just about the money. It's also because when you have something like this in your life - and make no mistake, when you're equity partner, that is your entire identity -...
I have an even more immediate solution than all-gender bathrooms. Stop caring about this and mind your own business. Do you know why I'm constantly on this website waxing lyrical about the virtues of being equity partner at a top law firm? It's not just about the money. It's also because when you have something like this in your life - and make no mistake, when you're equity partner, that is your entire identity - you have no time for other things. You have no time for nonsense like bathroom policing.
"...when you're equity partner, that is your entire identity - you have no time for other things."
Hahaha Arps you're fooling no one. You clearly have plenty of time to comment here (8 times on this article alone). Commenting this extensively is not indicative of a full diary.
If you're so determined to maintain the fiction of your lofty perch in society, perhaps comment less to stay in character.
You don't wax lyrical about anything, honey.
I'm actually sympathetic to the Marriott brand here, it had clearly no involvement in this matter and its brand doesn't deserve to be tarnished in this way.
A fake lawyer is sympathetic to a hotel brand that doesn't care if hotel owners follow published standards.
Wouldn't have this issue if we just had gender-less bathrooms. Why can't everyone just pee together?
(reposted after erroneously replying to the wrong comment)
SFO has all-gender bathrooms. I (man) exited a stall once and got major side eye from 2 separate women who entered the bathroom. It was apparent that "all gender" bathrooms are really for women and I should have used the men's room.
Yep! We have genderless bathrooms on airplanes, and everyone seems just fine with that!
@Ralph4878, *that* tired argument in 2025?
Yes, many private, single-occupancy restrooms are gender-neutral (including the ones we have at home!). That doesn't mean shared public restrooms should be. And many women still don't like private unisex bathrooms because men sometimes leave a mess on the seat that the women then have to clean up before using it. (Not to mention cases of men installing hidden cameras in there, etc.) So yes, there are many valid...
@Ralph4878, *that* tired argument in 2025?
Yes, many private, single-occupancy restrooms are gender-neutral (including the ones we have at home!). That doesn't mean shared public restrooms should be. And many women still don't like private unisex bathrooms because men sometimes leave a mess on the seat that the women then have to clean up before using it. (Not to mention cases of men installing hidden cameras in there, etc.) So yes, there are many valid reasons to have sex-separated spaces, which mainly benefit women and girls.
Why are some people so obsessed with other’s genitalia?
Because as I stated in my post below, everybody needs a passion in life. For me it's the law and professional client service. For low class losers in middle America it's policing your genitals.
Your passion is clearly meticulously tending to your fictitious identity online. Does that make you a winner?
SFO has all-gender bathrooms. I (man) exited a stall once and got major side eye from 2 separate women who entered the bathroom. It was apparent that "all gender" bathrooms are really for women and I should have used the men's room.
Damn I responded to the wrong comment
Don't recall "genitalia" being mentioned in this article. A person's sex is more than what's between their legs; it's in every cell of their body, and 99.9% of the time (in person) is easily discernible at a glance (though yes, every great once in a while, someone gets it wrong). It's always relevant when it comes to single-sex spaces.
There are exactly 2 reasons the "coastal elite" people (e.g. in Manhattan) are overwhelmingly liberal and look down upon conservative middle America.
1/ We mind our own business
So what if there were 2 people in one stall? A man in the woman's bathroom? All women's bathroom stalls are private, there are no urinals where you could potentially glimpse other people's genitals. The purpose of a bathroom is to do your business in private....
There are exactly 2 reasons the "coastal elite" people (e.g. in Manhattan) are overwhelmingly liberal and look down upon conservative middle America.
1/ We mind our own business
So what if there were 2 people in one stall? A man in the woman's bathroom? All women's bathroom stalls are private, there are no urinals where you could potentially glimpse other people's genitals. The purpose of a bathroom is to do your business in private. Nothing in this story suggests that was precluded in any way.
2/ We have better things to do
Do you know why conservatives in middle America worry about shit like this - because this is literally all they have to discuss in their lives. People, liberals and conservatives alike, crave action and drama. Life would be very boring otherwise. The action in liberal cities is high-end arts, culture, music, food, and lucrative endeavors such as being a law firm associate or partner. These consume all of one's time and leave none left over for nonsense like bathroom gender policing. Unfortunately middle America has nothing going on other than drug addictions, obesity, and MAGA politics.
Umm ok. I'm with you, but why so much condescension and blaming "middle America"? It happened in Boston. This is wrong no matter where it happens.
Hey Arps - if you have better things to do, why are you such a prolific commenter here?
That aside, you have a way about you. I know this is just another episode in your online cosplay as an elite attorney and member of high society, but this is exactly the kind of smug attitude that makes me dislike some people I agree with. It's like the Bill Maher effect - when I agree with...
Hey Arps - if you have better things to do, why are you such a prolific commenter here?
That aside, you have a way about you. I know this is just another episode in your online cosplay as an elite attorney and member of high society, but this is exactly the kind of smug attitude that makes me dislike some people I agree with. It's like the Bill Maher effect - when I agree with him, I feel gross because of the odious manner with which he makes his points.
I've met plenty of people in middle America who nominally identify as conservatives or even MAGAs who behave kindly, the way we'd think "good liberals" behave every day. I've also meant plenty of big city people who espouse the right high minded liberal ideals who behave like creeps. Part of this stems from cultural identifiers and othering people outside your geographic area, and the way you've phrased things perpetuates that cycle.
Manhattan resident here, long time resident of a prewar co-op. People do not mind their own business. Staying out of building gossip requires almost ninja-like stealth. Residents who appear at the right fundraisers and parties can also be shockingly bigoted even though they know how to hide behind liberal sounding phrasing.
Went to uni at Oberlin and got to experience rural Ohio. There are some genuinely kind people out there who don't always know the...
Manhattan resident here, long time resident of a prewar co-op. People do not mind their own business. Staying out of building gossip requires almost ninja-like stealth. Residents who appear at the right fundraisers and parties can also be shockingly bigoted even though they know how to hide behind liberal sounding phrasing.
Went to uni at Oberlin and got to experience rural Ohio. There are some genuinely kind people out there who don't always know the right words to use, but have amazing hearts. We stayed at a B&B owned by a 67 year old woman who used the word "oriental" and was also studying Mandarin for her first trip to China because she wanted to connect with the people.
Arps (or A Real Piece of S) Middle America? This happened in Boston, a very liberal place. So, your complete argument is gutter trash! And “we have better things to do.” Really? Your long rant proves otherwise, lol. Typical libt@rd!
So a man bursts into a woman's restroom to protect women from men ? The irony of it being called the Liberty Hotel.
It's like rain on your wedding day
Arps. More comments like these, please. This made me LOL and is so much better than the rest of your oeuvre.
Obviously more training is needed. No company can stop one individual that has prejudices. They can only educate and remove bad employees.
Looking at the image Lucky showed in the video, I would have thought this woman was a man. Perhaps my own prejudice. But it is also not my job (or my business) so I could stay out of this if I were there.
I do sympathize with almost everyone involved. This poor...
Obviously more training is needed. No company can stop one individual that has prejudices. They can only educate and remove bad employees.
Looking at the image Lucky showed in the video, I would have thought this woman was a man. Perhaps my own prejudice. But it is also not my job (or my business) so I could stay out of this if I were there.
I do sympathize with almost everyone involved. This poor lady who was harassed, obviously. But, also the women in line who clearly have their own prejudices, but whom also have been harassed and threatened enough by men in their lives that they have become super sensitive (prejudice) in such situations. And even the security guard, whom I can only assume was called into the situation with a lens of 'there is a man in the lady's room'. Clearly training and education needs to be conducted.
The (presumably) women who reported the victim for being a man in the women's restroom are creeps for assuming a butch woman minding her own business is a man, the security guard is a creep for his aggressive actions and demanding they prove their gender. Super gross and indicative of a societal problem. I wonder what person or group is responsible for exacerbating this in society of late?
To sum up all the comments on here from the anti-trans hysterics, it seems that our allegedly women protecting freedom loving right wing friends are totally cool with a man entering the women's restroom to ID the occupants any time some rando accuses said occupants of being male. I guess women having their bathrooms potentially invaded by male security 24/7 is the ironic price of women's freedom & safety.
Should have also banned the guests who got security involved. This is where the RWNJ culture war crap leads. Just absolutely disgraceful behavior by self-appointed morality police.
I mean this is sadly the world we live in, where we can't literally mind our own business.
The side that says they're about "protecting women" are now policing women in bathrooms. We're only one stop away from doing genital checks on people.
Some of us might like that prospect yoloswag, only joking ‘onest John’ …. :-)
"We're only one stop away from doing genital checks on people."
No one who's ever said this genuinely believes it; just baseless exaggeration and fearmongering. Humans have evolved over millions of years to be able to tell the sexes apart very accurately without looking in people's pants (thankfully).