As an aviation geek, I love listening to air traffic control audio, and always enjoy the VASAviation YouTube channel, which does a great job covering noteworthy air traffic control interactions.
I recently covered a heated exchange between an Aeromexico pilot and JFK ATC. I actually think the air traffic controller was reasonably professional, and more than anything, I felt bad for the stress he was under. Well, VASAviation has just published another JFK ATC video, this time involving an Air France pilot. Unlike in the last “episode,” the air traffic controller totally crossed the line, though.
In this post:
JFK air traffic controller furious at Air France pilot
This incident happened at around 10:10PM on August 27, 2024, at Kennedy Airport, and involves communications on the tower frequency. The flight in question is Air France’s AF12, operated by an Airbus A350-900 with the registration code F-HTYO. It had just landed in New York York (JFK) from Paris (CDG).
From the arrival runway, the tower controller had cleared the Air France aircraft to hold short of runway 22R. While holding short of the runway, the Air France pilot stated over the radio “Air France 012 to cross?” Clearly the Air France pilot was asking for permission to cross the runway, though in fairness, she wasn’t using standard terminology.
Precision is important when communicating with air traffic control, and the way she communicated almost made it sound like she had been given permission, rather than her asking a question. She should have instead phrased it with something like “requesting permission to cross runway 22R,” or something.
You’d think this wouldn’t be a huge deal, especially since the plane was holding short of the runway, so it’s not like they were actually confused about the instructions they had been given. For that matter, pilots constantly use non-standard terminology, especially at airports with a lot of foreign pilots. However, this simple phrase set the air traffic controller off, and he became kind of obsessed with punishing the Air France pilot. That started off with this interaction:
ATC: “Air France 012, hold short!”
Pilot: “Okay, we hold short.”
ATC: “Yeah, it’s the last thing you need to be saying… that word, when you’re holding short of a runway that’s about to be landed on.”
Pilot: “Okay.”
But then it got worse, once the plane was given permission to cross the runway. The air traffic controller gave the pilot a number to call, and then got a bit obsessive with making her copy it ASAP. Here’s how that started out:
ATC: “Air France 012 heavy, cross runway 22R at juliet, straight ahead alpha. I have a phone number for you, I’m gonna need you to call the tower when you get into the ramp.”
Pilot: “Okay, so crossing 22R via juilet and then on alpa, and we go with the ramp and contact.”
ATC: “Air France 012 heavy, you let me know when you’re ready to copy the number.”
Then the air traffic controller lost it on the Air France pilot, accusing the plane of stopping on the runway, which the pilot insisted wasn’t happening:
ATC: “Okay, I didn’t say stop. I didn’t say you have to copy now. You need to keep moving. Someone’s trying to clear the runway behind you. Air France 012, continue on alpha.”
Pilot: “Yes, that’s what we are doing. We are taxiing on alpha, Air France 012.”
ATC: “You’re stopped! Can you continue and move away from the runway?”
Pilot: “We are not anymore on the runway and we are taxiing, Air France 012.”
ATC: “Air France 012, there’s traffic trying to clear the runway behind you. You’re not the only aircraft taxiing. Continue moving, please.”
Pilot: “But that’s what we are doing! We haven’t stopped sir. I’m swearing. We are taxiing at 10 knots.”
ATC: “Air France 012, again, I’m gonna need you to call the tower when you have a chance. Let me know when you’re ready to take this number down.”
ATC: “Air France 012, are you ready to copy the number?”
Pilot: “Negative, we are consulting the ramp right now. They just gave us 15 minutes holding time. Where do you want us to go to call the phone”
ATC: “Air France 012, are you ready to copy the number?”
Pilot: “Yes, for Air France 012, go ahead. We are now ready.”
ATC: “Alright, the number is XXX-XXX-XXXX.”
Pilot: “Okay, but just so I know, what is the problem?”
ATC: “Air France 012, call the tower and we’ll discuss it, when you call the tower.”
Then a short time later, while the plane was still on the apron (and not even at the gate), the controller again went on about a phone call:
ATC: “I’m still waiting for you to call the tower.”
Pilot: “Sir, we are taxiing. We are in duty in an aircraft so I won’t call you during my duty, okay?”
You can hear the interaction for yourself below.
This air traffic controller needs to take a chill pill
Air traffic controllers have incredibly tough jobs. I have so much respect for the profession, and I think they deal with a lot more stress than pilots, all while often not being paid as well. Add in how short staffed so many air traffic control centers are, and I generally give them the benefit of the doubt.
However, this guy completely crossed the line, in my opinion. Yes, the Air France pilot made a minor mistake with how she phrased something, but honestly, I imagine the average JFK controller hears mistakes like that dozens of times during a shift. But then he became totally obsessive:
- Over and over and over, he told the pilots to let him know when they were ready to copy a number; like, chill out, they’re trying to taxi a plane at a busy airport, and they’ll get back to you
- He then started insisting that they stopped taxiing on the runway, which the pilot insisted wasn’t the case, and I’m inclined to believe the crew here
- Then the air traffic controller was angry that the pilot wasn’t calling the tower while still actively operating the jet, rather than upon arrival
Like I said above, air traffic controllers are busy and stressed enough without extra aggravation. But this air traffic controller really seemed like he enjoyed picking a fight, and almost became obsessed with showing his dominance. You can’t tell me that this didn’t take away from his focus on other things, as he was so determined to punish the Air France plane.
Bottom line
An air traffic controller at New York JFK Airport got angry with an Air France pilot, after she didn’t phrase something well. While it’s totally fair to let a pilot know if they’re not phrasing something correctly, the way he went about this was rude and wasn’t constructive, in my opinion.
It’s tough, because air traffic controllers have stressful jobs under the best of circumstances, and I can’t help but think that this guy raised his own stress level even higher with this situation.
What do you make of this JFK ATC and Air France pilot interaction?
Crazy how the ATC is so busy, but still waits patiently to pick up the damn phone call. It's ridiculous. I've seen biased comments on previous interactions, favoring the ATC on similar situations. In reality, ATC has to do their job while considering regulations, us pilots have to COMPLY, as long as we don't commit a violation of regulations or company policy. It's a teamwork.
Going back to my main thought: busy enough to take a phone call? Really?
That's it? I thought I was going to hear a shouting match. That was pretty tame, about normal for a scenario when something isn't going right. The Controller's voice elevated a bit but that's part of the job. The tone in which a controller speaks conveys a sense of urgency. A slight elevation in tone is completely normal. Shouting or inappropriate language me is not. This was pretty much a nothing burger.
I've had 1st-hand experience as a commercial pilot operating at JFK (years ago). ATC was WRONG to ask for a call before the jet was parked, but the pilot should be more careful with their language. It can be confusing as hell out there.
The author of this posy obviously lives a low stress life and isn't sympathetic to pilots or air traffic controllers in the least. GET A REAL JOB if you want to call someone "out of line". Manners are a tertiary cincer. when lives are involved.
The ATC his job is patience and guide. He did not do his job. Guess it is time for him to retire, this is a sign to retire. The pilot is carrying passengers. Safety first not your ego.
This situation exemplifies the rudeness that user’s experience. Be it pilots or passengers,
airports are the entry gate and the first interaction with the US.
Homeland Security agents are extremely RUDE.
TSA agents are rude and arrogant doing a job they shouldn’t be doing. Back to toll booths!
Both are a team effort to provide a professional result.
GC was a elitist jerk. Pull the tape and have a PIP session.
IAD/ZDC 1967-1992…
Typical New Yorker.
This would have been a much better analysis than the one given by the anti union bootlicker who posted it.
He got pissed because she tried to verify a clearance, while delta and American pilots are reading back clearance after clearance using non-standard phraseology. NY controllers are the worst.
She was asking for a clearance, but it sounded like she was trying to verify one - for something she definitely did not have clearance for. Hence why the controller got upset. Just saying something like "Air France 12, holding short 22 right" would have been more appropriate.
JFK Tower controllers do this all the time. They give the rest of us controllers a bad name. N90 and JFK are the worst on the air.
The ATC guy should not be working the job with that attitude. He places the AF crew safety at risk under pointless stress and distraction.
As a retired ATC, obviously this fellow has the God syndrome! I don't buy the arguments that ATC is stressful which it is, but that doesn't give he/she the excuse to have a temper tantrum for no reasons at all. To lose a temper for such a simple non standard phraseology matter is utterly stupid because he/she was on a power trip!, which in turn may cloud other important judgements sown the line during his/her shift.
Yea, Controller took that incident entirely to far…maybe he was bored…
Idk, when it comes to safety, things need to be taken seriously. Telling the ATC to chill out because of a small safety infringement is mind boggling to say the least.
There was no safety infringement though. In fact she avoided a very large one by asking the question he got mad that she asked.
She was asking for clearance to cross the runway, but in a non-standard way. If she wanted to remind the JFK controllers that she was waiting to cross, "Air France 12, holding short 22R" would be the appropriate way to do that without suggesting that she was about a cross a runway that someone else was about to land on.
That being said, the controller definitely overreacted and needed to chill. Air France waiting so...
She was asking for clearance to cross the runway, but in a non-standard way. If she wanted to remind the JFK controllers that she was waiting to cross, "Air France 12, holding short 22R" would be the appropriate way to do that without suggesting that she was about a cross a runway that someone else was about to land on.
That being said, the controller definitely overreacted and needed to chill. Air France waiting so long to copy the number didn't really help either, though.
Idk, when it comes to safety, things need to be taken seriously. Telling the ATC to chill out because of a small safety infringement is mind boggling to say the least.
The irony of an American ATC, a JFK controller especially, complaining about non-standard phraseology is just
You emphasize many times in this article that the controller has a stressful job, yet the controller is sitting in a comfortable chair in an environment that is idealized for his job. His stress level is proportional to the fact that he might get demoted or even fired if he screws up. Meanwhile the pilot is in charge of the safety of hundreds of passengers and crew. She bears all of the responsibility for keeping...
You emphasize many times in this article that the controller has a stressful job, yet the controller is sitting in a comfortable chair in an environment that is idealized for his job. His stress level is proportional to the fact that he might get demoted or even fired if he screws up. Meanwhile the pilot is in charge of the safety of hundreds of passengers and crew. She bears all of the responsibility for keeping them safe while the aircraft hurtles through the sky, often through dangerous weather conditions and facing the challenges and complexities of the aircraft systems and limitations. If she screws up, her own life as well as the lives of hundreds of people can be lost as well the loss of a vehicle costing hundreds of millions.
Who has the stressful job? As Ernie Gann once said about flying "anyone can do the job when things are going well, but in this game we play for keeps".
As a flight instructor, I teach my clients that even though he is called a "controller" it is the pilot who is held accountable, not the controller. It is the pilots obligation to "aviate, navigate, and communicate" with the latter being last on the list of things to do. And I teach them that "Unable" is a perfectly valid response to any command from ATC if it goes agains the pilots sensibilities.
Welcome to New York where everyone is angry.
This scenario deserves some context which none of you have, looking at the ground radar you can clearly see her stop, then her commence with a slow rate of taxi, while an aircraft behind is crossing an active runway that is in use for arrival. I am pretty sure that that the controller has multiple aircraft that are three to five on final for that runway. So, excuse him for being safety conscious and separating...
This scenario deserves some context which none of you have, looking at the ground radar you can clearly see her stop, then her commence with a slow rate of taxi, while an aircraft behind is crossing an active runway that is in use for arrival. I am pretty sure that that the controller has multiple aircraft that are three to five on final for that runway. So, excuse him for being safety conscious and separating and having the wherewithal to teach and reprimand a less than compliant pilot who is safely on the ground while other airborne pilots need the runway that she was utilizing.
It just came from France, so it is a large (heavy) aircraft. They take time to get moving again once they’ve stopped. Especially when thrust needs to be limited like it does while taxiing. Crossing a runway from a stop in a heavy aircraft is a slow process.
Who do we call when holding on tarmac for hours because ATC can't vector around weather or reroute traffic in air. Current controllers overrated.
Controller's ego needs to be deflated.
As with many "incidents" this one started with non-standard phraseology. That being said, the controller was out of line. Did he really expect the crew to call him from the cockpit while they were still on the movement are? RW
Totally agree
This author clearly has no idea what they are writing about. This sounds like a very critical situation - the word "cross" is NEVER used unless it is in s clearance and I wont go on sbout the many safety reasons this is so. And an aircraft that big moving at 10kts crossing an active runway as wide as JFK's 22R might as well be stopped. This controller doesnt need to take a chill pill....
This author clearly has no idea what they are writing about. This sounds like a very critical situation - the word "cross" is NEVER used unless it is in s clearance and I wont go on sbout the many safety reasons this is so. And an aircraft that big moving at 10kts crossing an active runway as wide as JFK's 22R might as well be stopped. This controller doesnt need to take a chill pill. That pilot needs to be educated - which is the purpose of the phone call.
Until you've worked ATC at a major airport with a complex ground operation, maybe you should keep your ill informed musings to yourself.
The ATC in question has just revealed himself! LOL
The controller definitely did need to calm down some, but Mark is correct that this particular use of "non-standard" phraseology is much worse than most of what people who aren't pilots or controllers here are comparing it to. Giving the phone number was definitely appropriate, but the controller should have been more calm about doing that.
As an actual air traffic controller, I just gotta say that I understand whyJFK TWR reacted so strongly. The article suggests that non-standard phraseology is used frequently, which is true to some degree - not that is for movements which does not relate to active runways. Runways is where we consequences of accidents can be the biggest, and combined with the reduced amount of safety nets compared to in the air, both ATC and pilots...
As an actual air traffic controller, I just gotta say that I understand whyJFK TWR reacted so strongly. The article suggests that non-standard phraseology is used frequently, which is true to some degree - not that is for movements which does not relate to active runways. Runways is where we consequences of accidents can be the biggest, and combined with the reduced amount of safety nets compared to in the air, both ATC and pilots alike are required to maintain nothing but standard phraseology concerning all elements of runway operations. Although JFK TWR could have handled the situation better, I completely understand the presence a strong reaction. I've had that myself in similar situations.
Regarding the phone call, that is the only way to professionaly handle such a situation. You do not make such dialouge on frequency. The phone allows for both more privacy, some time to cool off, and the possibility to talk without the pressure of maintaining control of air traffic or a specific aircraft.
I get the sensitivity around runway incursions and being set off by pilots who mess up. They seem less and less competent and professional each passing day.
However, this controller is doing the exact opposite of what you wrote at the end about the phone call being the only way to sort these things out. He's badgering that crew while they're still working (and he is too). If we heard someone going off on...
I get the sensitivity around runway incursions and being set off by pilots who mess up. They seem less and less competent and professional each passing day.
However, this controller is doing the exact opposite of what you wrote at the end about the phone call being the only way to sort these things out. He's badgering that crew while they're still working (and he is too). If we heard someone going off on a pilot for that many minutes across that many transmissions, we'd be pulling them out of position to cool off. Give them the phone number when you're done with them before switching to the ramp, and wait 15min for them to shut down and call, and then tear them a new one. He was being a dipshit on freq. And I get that they're busy, but other places manage to be busy without the same culture of being douche bags so often and ending up on VASaviation
anonATC, +10000
This obliterates the most common explanation I hear about the rudeness in NY: it's a dense city and people are busy. As if there are no other dense cities with busy people. In fact, the world is full of much denser cities that are much friendlier.
While I don't think this is a valid excuse for the rudeness, it's not true at all to say that the world is full of "much denser" cities than Manhattan. There's really only one city anywhere on Earth that could reasonably be described as "much denser" than Manhattan, namely Manila, which is about 50% more dense. There are a few other cities more dense than Manhattan, but all of them by less than 10%.
I'm curious to why the tower is handling ground if they're so busy. I fly in a Class D with TRSA (so basically Class Charlie) and in the mornings and evenings when things aren't busy, the tower will give you exit and taxi instructions and say remain on frequency. That leads me to believe they were short a person which would make it stressful but I agree, no reason to be mean. I mess up...
I'm curious to why the tower is handling ground if they're so busy. I fly in a Class D with TRSA (so basically Class Charlie) and in the mornings and evenings when things aren't busy, the tower will give you exit and taxi instructions and say remain on frequency. That leads me to believe they were short a person which would make it stressful but I agree, no reason to be mean. I mess up my phraseology from time to time and English is my first language. I used to live in France and making phone calls to businesses in French with a culture not known for customer service was frustrating (especially 30+ years ago); so I must admit there was a little schadenfreude but the French are still near and dear to my heart and they didn't deserve that. All that said - it's New York and they're not famous for hand holding but neither are the Parisians.
I don't think they were handling ground. They handed the other aircraft off to Ground after they crossed 22R.
As a former tower controller Air France seemed to indicate they were about to cross an active runway that they had been told to hold short of. Because of serious incidents with unauthorized runway incursions it is not surprising that ATC somewhat flipped out. Clearly a better response from ATC would have been: “Negative, Air France hold short” and no need to badger regarding copying the phone number. I suspect the phone interaction was much...
As a former tower controller Air France seemed to indicate they were about to cross an active runway that they had been told to hold short of. Because of serious incidents with unauthorized runway incursions it is not surprising that ATC somewhat flipped out. Clearly a better response from ATC would have been: “Negative, Air France hold short” and no need to badger regarding copying the phone number. I suspect the phone interaction was much more instructive with respect to precision in communication and dangers of miscommunication.
What is the point of the phone number? Call it and a "not on the frontline on that shift" ATC will answer and educate the pilot on what they did wrong?
Agree Mitch. The need ofr use of standard phraseology is of utmost importance, and it is here that both, pilots and ATC, are at fault, especially in the US. This, not always, but way too often.
That's it? Seriously? That's nothing. I've heard other ATC's on the Flight Cannel get much worse. Might even be the same guy.
P.S. If readers had not known the genger or nationality of the pilot, they might have assessed this incident differently. The ATC' s patience was being stretched to the limit, involving instructions to a pilot who didn't seem to "get it." He refrained from gender-based insults he may have made, instead repeating his instructions. He sssumed, rightly or wrongly, that the pilot could follow his instructions. But commenters here rush to judgement based on gender!...
P.S. If readers had not known the genger or nationality of the pilot, they might have assessed this incident differently. The ATC' s patience was being stretched to the limit, involving instructions to a pilot who didn't seem to "get it." He refrained from gender-based insults he may have made, instead repeating his instructions. He sssumed, rightly or wrongly, that the pilot could follow his instructions. But commenters here rush to judgement based on gender! Enough is enough, people. Women are not always in the right, nor infallible! Sometimes men do know what they are talking about. We all must occupy the planet together.
What planet are you from? Your comments miss the point completely
Internalized patriarchy and why feminism is necessary, Exhibit A1
Terminology is always critically important, even in daily life. I am a copyeditor, retired English teacher, and I undersand very well how even a misplaced comma or wrong word can skew or obliterate meaning. There are historical examples of how even a typo can drastically affect an outcome. Moreover, this exhange sounds like a conversation at the kitchen table about what do you want for breakfast. I believe the ATC was following protocol and the...
Terminology is always critically important, even in daily life. I am a copyeditor, retired English teacher, and I undersand very well how even a misplaced comma or wrong word can skew or obliterate meaning. There are historical examples of how even a typo can drastically affect an outcome. Moreover, this exhange sounds like a conversation at the kitchen table about what do you want for breakfast. I believe the ATC was following protocol and the pilot sounded like a Gen XYZ thinking she could make up her own mind. Couldn't even tell her copilot to take down the number?? And why does she need to make a PHONE CALL anyway?? She isn't ordering takeout! Meanwhile, you have a huge aircraft in motion... or maybe it wasn't. That pilot needs to go back to pilot school.
You understand atc asked the pilot to make the call? Not sure you understood any of this.
No matter how congested the frequency is, JFK tower always manages to carve out an extra few seconds to insert various insults. Impressive.
He sounds young and I think maybe his job gave him a big head and he wanted to show his "dominance".
From the segment of ATC folks with frustrated law enforcement aspirations. His tone changed completely when talking to the male AF pilot.
Listen to the tone of the male AF pilot and the female one and you'll see why they got a different response. When Tower at a very busy airport tells you not to say "cross" on frequency except as part of a clearance "ookkaaayyy" is not the appropriate response. Controller initially sounded a lot more calm until she started giving him attitude after her own series of mistakes.
Sounds like ATC was being a sexist pig. I bet you a million bucks he wouldn't have spoken to a male pilot the way he spoke to the female pilot.
You will be out a million bucks very quickly. I take that you haven't listened to much JFK ATC. And also that you're not a pilot or controller. You don't say "cross" on the radio except as part of a clearance (which is why the controller said "that word" instead of even saying what she said wrong on the radio.) Same goes for "takeoff" and "land." This is a very important safety rule made after...
You will be out a million bucks very quickly. I take that you haven't listened to much JFK ATC. And also that you're not a pilot or controller. You don't say "cross" on the radio except as part of a clearance (which is why the controller said "that word" instead of even saying what she said wrong on the radio.) Same goes for "takeoff" and "land." This is a very important safety rule made after the Tenerife disaster in attempt to prevent another one of those due to miscommunication on frequency.
ATC Obssesive compulsive disorder... Rude unprofessional.
Did he really loose his cool...He just asked a number of times and was a bit in patient.
Probably intimidated by a female pilot and needed to make up for the lack of his….
Although they have a high stress job, some of the New York controllers need to realize their funky accent and fast talking is just as bad as some foreign pilots accents. Not everyone understands someone talking a mile a minute in a New York accent. Put this guy in a cockpit and have him try and comply with all the instructions radioed to him from his ATC n see how he does! Bring back Kennedy Steve!
Oh look more stupidity from JFK atc
First of all you seem to explain that being an ATC controller is more stressful than being a pilot… Never forget two things: first, the only thing the ATC controller risks in his job is to fall down of his chair.
And second, the ATC propose, the pilots dispose.
This ATC sounds like they flunked out of customer service school so they became an ATC. Not at all cool.
The ATC should just say..AF..Hold Position, or Hold Short of Runway, we have landing traffic. Then after traffic lands, and its safe give instructions to AF to continue taxiing ...accordingly
Controllers must maintain a cool head all the time
F*ck the ATC controller. He is not a god. Many times i do it. Dont give a sh*t just write a complaint and move on. thats it. But in the end? I am the one who are able to relax and go to the hotel? The ATC up there? Let him sh*t in the pants!
I've heard the same from pilot friends landing in NY. Typical new york attitude from ATC. Having lived in NY, its the same ny attitude from a lot of these jerk off's. A real sheet hole to live and work in.
I would have phoned the tower & started speaking French as it's my first language.
After reading some of the comments here, it is obvious to me, a 40+ year pilot with 34 years with a major, that some (many?) here are too woke.
Folks, this literally is life and death... time to put on your big boy/girls pants.
Moronic attitude yo tell anyone in the industry they need to take a,”chill pill”. Very immature. “Writers like this make me sick,
No aviation professional wants an ATC dude who can't keep professional to the crucial job. Negative in his file.
Not surprised I am french I totally understand the frustration from the tower!
Can be very scary.
Poor training from air france
Lack of coaching supervision a total mess like their government who own a great % of air france share. They destroyer air inter long ago with their policies so on....
Pilot should take remedial english before she flies again. ATC was spot on to be a hard ass with this pilot or any other pilot lacking English proficiency.
Didn't sound like she lacked English proficiency, but rather just radio skills.
Air France should have given Tower a number to call.
The Air France plane just asked . They didn’t cross the runway there was no incursion.
@Kennedy Steve
Hold short of Hotel I have a number for you D3Kingg
To qualify my comment, I’m an FAA licensed private pilot who has flown out of some of the busiest airports in the US west (LAX, OC / John Wayne, and so on)
IMO this is clearly a situation where the controller was frustrated, possibly tired or hungry, and definitely overworked. These folks have an impossible job with real lives on the line at all times. During the busy times one can easily imagine unrelenting pressure...
To qualify my comment, I’m an FAA licensed private pilot who has flown out of some of the busiest airports in the US west (LAX, OC / John Wayne, and so on)
IMO this is clearly a situation where the controller was frustrated, possibly tired or hungry, and definitely overworked. These folks have an impossible job with real lives on the line at all times. During the busy times one can easily imagine unrelenting pressure and stress made worse by all the undisciplined, and sometimes unidentified (Drones / ex, aircraft flying around in restricted airspace these days.
Making matters worse, their air traffic systems were developed at the same time brilliant engineers were developing the NASA Space Shuttle. No amount of money will ever make their jobs better.
As a pilot I have immense respect for what they do. They can communicate with me however they want to - as long as they don’t screw up.
Communicate however they want to? Absolutely not. There are prescribed ways of communication so that misinterpretation is avoided. Just like pilots have checklists so that errors are avoided.
The fact is, many of the JFK tower controllers are former training failures from radar facilities in the beginning of their careers. This can lead to major chips on their shoulders. Personally, I find the JFK tower controllers sometimes lack tact and class in their communications. It’s an embarrassment to the profession.
Somewhere there’s an Aeromexico crew with big smiles on their faces.
Proficiency in English is a requirement to command aircraft internationally.
Use of standard terminology is a requirement of ATC and pilots, to avoid misunderstandings.
People are quick to declare this a sexist incident when the problem is sloppiness.
You can bet ATC little tantrum boy got called on the carpet for that one.
Reminds me of the stewardess on the plane who takes offense if she doesn’t like the position of attention you are sitting in while she gives her instructions. I’ll drive my Tesla just the same. C
"Stewardess" is dated and borderline offensive. They are flight attendants (or crew which can also refer to the pilots).
Finding "stewardess" - a perfectly correct English word - offensive is entirely up to you.
@JustSaying
It’s not stewardess !!! Cabin crew or flight attendant. They hate that. That term was phased out in like the ‘90s.
steward (ess)
/ˈstjuːəd/
noun
1. a person employed to look after the passengers on a ship, aircraft, or train.
Offensive? I could not care less.
Next they will be Flight Safety Engineers.
Steve Abraham at Kennedy was the model controller. Glad for him that he retired, but his professionalism is missed.
From what I know, he was not merely professional. He was also humorous. Anybody who can add humor and levity to a situation is a winner in my book.
I liked ze French accent qui qui, therefore she was right. Qui
Disappointed the pilot didn’t tell the ATC to relax.
Makes me wonder - the AF pilot was a woman and ATC felt it totally appropriate to berate.
I don't have to wonder. Misogyny was 100% a factor
Was it a factor in the Aeromexico exchange as well?
Earning your “woke points”?
Clearly this ATC fellow has a micropenis judging from his off-the-chain reaction to the AF pilot.
Men with micropenises really belong in institutionalized care, because they're all insane and in desperate need of respect that will never be forthcoming. From this out of control ATC moron to the lying Republic party Melon Felon, padded cells are in order.
Let's stay grounded in science and empiricism. There has never been an established correlation between P size and demeanor. For all we know, this ATC has a big swinging D. The felon has assured us his D is also big (contra the size of his hands). Stormy has only ever claimed micro on a TV comedy show, not under oath.
TravelinPENIS knows all about micropenises. He knows what he's talking about, so listen up..
Seems like this warrants an investigation into the ATC so a similar situation does not reoccur. Does the ATC need help and more training given the stressful job ? How experienced is he and is this his first incident ? Does the AF pilot need to be more accurate in order acknowledgments ? Why did the ATC think the aircraft was stationary when the pilot said they were moving at 10 knots ? Accidents usually happen when more than one person makes an error.
The French had it coming.
I know ATC is under tremendous pressure, but that never excuses disrespectful behavior, not to a stranger, not to a coworker. It’s also not a good look for a male ATCer to be ordering around a female pilot like that. Unprofessional.
Issuing orders (hold short - move out of the runway) are the raison d'etre of ATC, so I will cut the guy a break pro hac vice. The disrespect is another story, and I agree with you. Nothing ever excuses disrespect. I've noticed Americans are keen to excuse disrespect in the even they perceive an error on the part of someone else. That baffles me. Disrespect is never okay, even if the fault is the other party's.
1. It's not uncommon to stray from standard terminology. That should not be cause for "losing it".
2. JFK is a major destination for international flights.
3. English may be the most widely spoken language in the world, but it is the native language for less than 5% of the world. This means many, many pilots communicating at JFK are not speaking in their native language. We should understand that - especially the...
1. It's not uncommon to stray from standard terminology. That should not be cause for "losing it".
2. JFK is a major destination for international flights.
3. English may be the most widely spoken language in the world, but it is the native language for less than 5% of the world. This means many, many pilots communicating at JFK are not speaking in their native language. We should understand that - especially the JFK controllers.
4. If we're complaining about "non standard" terminology, then the controller "picking a fight" is even worse in that the discussion they had was more appropriate for the phone call than over the radio.
If the controller is acting this way because of stress, then it is incumbent on the FAA to help fix the situation. In fact, there was a recent incident also at JFK (I believe around 2AM) where a single controller was working tower, ground and clearance delivery.
At JFK, that seems insane. If the FAA is saying safety is #1, they aren't doing a good job of proving it.
Retired career airline pilot here with lots of trips into kennedy. The controller was not angry these guys are New Yorkers that's just the way they communicate. Especially on that job. That being said I don't see any real reason they would need to make a phone call that's usually for something very serious like crossing a Runway without permission. The girl has now learned to emphasize that it was a request and that she...
Retired career airline pilot here with lots of trips into kennedy. The controller was not angry these guys are New Yorkers that's just the way they communicate. Especially on that job. That being said I don't see any real reason they would need to make a phone call that's usually for something very serious like crossing a Runway without permission. The girl has now learned to emphasize that it was a request and that she was not making a statement. Just a simple language hiccup. I get his point but he perhaps overreacted. There has been a string of bad events at Kennedy lately so they are all probably wound up tight. There's a reason why they're not allowed to work past 56.
I stopped reading after you referred to the pilot as "girl"
Did you retire off the 707 or DC-8?
Sometimes you get someone not very flexible and it's a battle for everything because they insist you speak in the same words even if it's unnecessary. We all have that person at work.
the Air Current just released a story on the pathetic state of ATC in the New York City area.
It is chronically and severely understaffed despite being the most congested airspace in the US with 3 major airports all within miles of each other.
Add in that there are a high percentage of foreign airlines that use NYC airspace which means language and cultural challenges and it is a recipe that is explosive....
the Air Current just released a story on the pathetic state of ATC in the New York City area.
It is chronically and severely understaffed despite being the most congested airspace in the US with 3 major airports all within miles of each other.
Add in that there are a high percentage of foreign airlines that use NYC airspace which means language and cultural challenges and it is a recipe that is explosive. Throw in some NYC attitudes and it goes south very fast - and I am not talking about to FLL.
Add in that even US airline pilots don't follow directions - as evidenced by a high seniority AA crew taxiing in front of a DL aircraft on its takeoff roll - and the NYC ATC is a disaster in waiting hiding under the surface.
So this blog is doing a major public service by increasing awareness. Once we have more public awareness, the understaffing issue can be solved with more money and more headcount.
I don't think anyone including anyone in Congress is unaware of the disaster that NYC ATC is... and the problem is far bigger than just interpersonal clashes -whether they are driven by pilots or controllers.
The problems stem from the way the FAA is funded and the fact that logical moves like restructuring airspace and even how NYC ATC is staffed (parts of EWR were just moved to PHL ATC centers) take years and years...
I don't think anyone including anyone in Congress is unaware of the disaster that NYC ATC is... and the problem is far bigger than just interpersonal clashes -whether they are driven by pilots or controllers.
The problems stem from the way the FAA is funded and the fact that logical moves like restructuring airspace and even how NYC ATC is staffed (parts of EWR were just moved to PHL ATC centers) take years and years of political fighting.
The FAA needs to be run by business people that can pay market wages to properly staff ATC and the FAA needs to adequately determine what those staffing levels are. 10% of NYC slots are not being used yet ATC is staffed at 60%. There may be a lot of overtime in there and many positions are understaffed but the system is working - even poorly and THAT is why nothing really changes.
Nothing that is said on here is going to change the situation in NYC.
which means that Ben can listen to all of the ATC-pilot conflicts he wants if that is how he wants to generate page clicks.
It beats the anecdotal bad passenger or employee stories that someone else in this market uses to fill space.
Tim, you forgot to add that's why Delta pulled it's transpacific JFK flights to the profitable SEA and ATL fortress while double down with the best plane ever the A350-1000. The earnings call says it all.
By the way Tim, are you trying to not mention the tragic Delta tires, or should it be Boeing tires.
sure... as long as we also mention the AA 767 engine failures that happened in LAX under maintenance AND on the runway at ORD.
Whether you "get it" or not, this isn't a pissing contest.
This is about JFK and pilot ATC communication issues.
Feel free to list all of the issues in say the last year or two that involve conflict between ATC and a US carrier pilot and then that will be relevant.
...sure... as long as we also mention the AA 767 engine failures that happened in LAX under maintenance AND on the runway at ORD.
Whether you "get it" or not, this isn't a pissing contest.
This is about JFK and pilot ATC communication issues.
Feel free to list all of the issues in say the last year or two that involve conflict between ATC and a US carrier pilot and then that will be relevant.
In the case of the AA 777, all of the talk about young foreign pilots doesn't mean anything when a senior NYC based pilot crew can't even handle the instructions that they are given.
and then those senior pilots continued on to Europe - which is part of the reason the entire US industry is now required to install 25 hour voice recorders on commercial aircraft.
but of course you didn't want to hear that so you argue and now I write even more about AA's JFK ATC incident.
Yes we finally are able to train Tim Dunn to understand a bit of relevancy.
Now if we can do more on his urge for Delta.
I’ve worked with ATC. Some are ok and some have serious issues to say the least
I will always get the human hate for calling out humans.
Time to remove humans from the error.
You never hear Google Maps tell you to clear the intersection and keep moving then call Google.
ATC is intractable for computers. Humans are necessary.
Be careful what you wish for. An economy running how with no middle class jobs. Good luck ! It won’t make us better humans. We just need to learn to treat others better and have thick skin when another human is a POS.
I don't understand how being a "New Yorker" Air traffic controller is an acceptable reason to be rude. Considering how much communication they have with people of various cultures a New Yorker should be MUCH more understanding and patient. I think it is a cheap excuse and it frustrates me very much when I see this kind of behaviour. There is a line between being abrupt because you are overburdened and then going on a...
I don't understand how being a "New Yorker" Air traffic controller is an acceptable reason to be rude. Considering how much communication they have with people of various cultures a New Yorker should be MUCH more understanding and patient. I think it is a cheap excuse and it frustrates me very much when I see this kind of behaviour. There is a line between being abrupt because you are overburdened and then going on a power play and going out of your way to condescend, reprimand and downright threaten other people. Disgusting behaviour.
Not at all “acceptable” but certainly understandable.
I don't really care about the ATC's tone. He did his job trying to get the aircraft to do what he needed it to do far safety. What concerns me is that he was obviously *extremely* stressed. He missed the fact that the aircraft was in fact moving - not once, but several times. He kept yammering about the phone call, despite that fact that it was not urgent and the pilots had a much...
I don't really care about the ATC's tone. He did his job trying to get the aircraft to do what he needed it to do far safety. What concerns me is that he was obviously *extremely* stressed. He missed the fact that the aircraft was in fact moving - not once, but several times. He kept yammering about the phone call, despite that fact that it was not urgent and the pilots had a much more important job to do. As Lucky said, clearly he was distracted - that is a recipe for disaster.
If the solution is to hire more ATCs so they work shorter shifts and get more rest, I'd gladly pay more airport taxes for that. But as it is, this is a ticking time bomb.
So you do care about the tone, because on a radio communication, there's no other way to exhibit obvious stress. The mistakes could have come from any number of reasons.
One way to reduce stress is in fact to remind yourself to speak in a genteel tone.
How do you know that AF was moving? AF said they were moving, but ATC has ground radar that tracks movement on the ground.
What else can you do? Firing him??!! I suggest that pilots just suck it and move on.
The AF pilot was emblematic of the poise and grace that one would expect of a French person.
Every employee has a supervisor. Every organization conducts performance reviews. The supervisor should file incidents like these, along with feedback for improvement, for the next performance review.
AF pilots were emblematic of lack of situational awareness.
"AF pilots were emblematic of lack of situational awareness."
How so?
You dont ask to cross 22R trying to prompt ATC when it’s obvious there will be multiple departures off that runway until they stack crossing traffic at each holding point before letting a “heavy” depart. At that point they will cross all the holding traffic as they leave a wake turbulence gap for a medium departure. Once given that clearance to cross you do it promptly and expeditiously especially when you hear that the aircraft...
You dont ask to cross 22R trying to prompt ATC when it’s obvious there will be multiple departures off that runway until they stack crossing traffic at each holding point before letting a “heavy” depart. At that point they will cross all the holding traffic as they leave a wake turbulence gap for a medium departure. Once given that clearance to cross you do it promptly and expeditiously especially when you hear that the aircraft behind you just got the same clearance…. You don’t do any of this at 10 kts… that is a “crawl” and might as well be not moving. As an aviator you build a picture of what’s going on around you and your place in “the plan” regardless of if it’s JFK or Dubai, in the air or on the ground. Lack of situational awareness…. The good thing about JFK is you’ll take your tongue lashing on the frequency, and after the phonecall which they will tell you their expectations for next time which I explained above…. That’ll b the end of it, no reports, nothing beyond that.
Whatever the reason, his communications were unprofessional.
The usual power tripping US aviation shenanigans at play. To all the folks saying "they have stressful jobs", I highly doubt ATC included playing with teddy bears in the job description. The pay should reflect the stress levels they go through; basic professional behavior is table stakes.
ATC guy needs his eyes tested if an airliner moving at 10 knots looks like it’s stopped.
Crossing a JFK runway at 10 kts with another aircraft given clearance to cross immediately behind you knowing departure traffic is holding in position…. Might as well be standing still!
Then explicitly talk in specific terms like speed the way the pilot did versus throwing a tantrum like a kid expecting to be understood.
Gotta move the plane expeditiously across the runway without slowing to a crawl when you know someone is crossing behind you. This is called situational awareness, airmanship and the expectation at any busy airport worldwide…. It does not require “specific terms like speed”, It’s called MROT Minimum Runway Occupancy Time!
Hopefully ATC is not getting too distracted trying to get AF to call the tower!
ATC was over the top on this one. Practically accusing the AF pilots of stalling on the runway - come on, I can't imagine any pilot would be that unprofessional and blatantly disregard safety. ATC is a stressful job but they need to be able to handle the stress to be cut out for it.
Yes he was out of line but these controllers are working under stressful condition and communication is going to be short and very curt. If a pilot doesn't want to deal with this reality they should not work for an airline in which they will be required to fly into huge International airports like JFK.
ATC was the opposite of short. Short would be:
AF- "Can we cross?"
ATC- "Hold short. Do not cross."
ATC- "AF, keep moving."
AF- "We are taxiing."
ATC- "I see you are stopped. Please move out of the runway."
AF- "I swear we are taxiing at 10 knots."
What ATC said was a lot more verbose. "The last thing you should be saying is 'cross'," (I'm paraphrasing), "There are aircraft on...
ATC was the opposite of short. Short would be:
AF- "Can we cross?"
ATC- "Hold short. Do not cross."
ATC- "AF, keep moving."
AF- "We are taxiing."
ATC- "I see you are stopped. Please move out of the runway."
AF- "I swear we are taxiing at 10 knots."
What ATC said was a lot more verbose. "The last thing you should be saying is 'cross'," (I'm paraphrasing), "There are aircraft on the runway behind you" -- all this is needless condescension with no impact on current operations. Who cares if aircraft are behind you or if it is totally clear? If ATC says move, then it doesn't matter why.
I am a commercial airline pilot. IMO the controller was not out of line at all. He remained professional despite the stress and issues with AF not following instructions/improper terminology.
The issue is substance vs. style.
Objectively, the content of the controller's messaging was in keeping with the requirements of the job.
Style-wise, do you agree the controller could have been more refined?
You might say style is unimportant because ATC isn't customer service, in fact, all parties are industry professionals in a safety-critical setting. But I didn't ask if style is important or not. I asked if the controller could have been more refined....
The issue is substance vs. style.
Objectively, the content of the controller's messaging was in keeping with the requirements of the job.
Style-wise, do you agree the controller could have been more refined?
You might say style is unimportant because ATC isn't customer service, in fact, all parties are industry professionals in a safety-critical setting. But I didn't ask if style is important or not. I asked if the controller could have been more refined. If you think no, I would be curious to hear and to rebut your arguments.
With all due respect, this is a senseless question. But I will answer it - yes the controller could have been more refined. But substance is what matters - lives are at stake and there can be no misunderstandings. The controller needs to issue clearances using standard phraseology. In the heat of the (very stressful) moment, the controller will follow their training, and "tone" may suffer. So style does not really matter. (other than to...
With all due respect, this is a senseless question. But I will answer it - yes the controller could have been more refined. But substance is what matters - lives are at stake and there can be no misunderstandings. The controller needs to issue clearances using standard phraseology. In the heat of the (very stressful) moment, the controller will follow their training, and "tone" may suffer. So style does not really matter. (other than to you) This is not a poetry contest.
The controller was berating the crew while they should be observing sterile cockpit procedures plus he was blocking his own frequency while doing it. What was he going to do if one of the crewmembers called the tower, stop working traffic and take the call? I’m a commercial pilot too, and IMO this guy was anything but professional.
Would you accept this tone of communication between yourself and other members of your flight crew? I hope not, and I don't see crew vs ATC as different.
I flew as medical flight crew on a critical care jet for five years with no wall between the cabin and the flight deck, and often with headset on. As you can imagine, it gets tense when the patient "goes south" and you need to get...
Would you accept this tone of communication between yourself and other members of your flight crew? I hope not, and I don't see crew vs ATC as different.
I flew as medical flight crew on a critical care jet for five years with no wall between the cabin and the flight deck, and often with headset on. As you can imagine, it gets tense when the patient "goes south" and you need to get down in a hurry to access equiptment not available on the aircraft. Even in those circumstances I never heard this sort of tone between our pilots and ATC or between the captain and first officer.
In my "old man" opinion, a harsh tone and even harsh words are acceptable AFTER the work is complete, but not during.
Jeff is right. Also a lifelong pilot here (not commercial). The AF crew member got so many things wrong, over and over. The language you use with ATC needs to be PRECISE. The AF crew member was just the opposite. "OK" is NEVER an appropriate response to any question or interaction with ATC (except perhaps after being told "good evening" or "have a good flight"). "OK" is ambiguous. It should either be "Roger" (means: I...
Jeff is right. Also a lifelong pilot here (not commercial). The AF crew member got so many things wrong, over and over. The language you use with ATC needs to be PRECISE. The AF crew member was just the opposite. "OK" is NEVER an appropriate response to any question or interaction with ATC (except perhaps after being told "good evening" or "have a good flight"). "OK" is ambiguous. It should either be "Roger" (means: I understand), "affirmative" or "negative" (for yes or no) and you READ BACK - word-for word - many instructions, including (always) hold short (with the details of where you're holding short). The controller may have come across as gruff, direct and curt, but their job is to be precise. The AF crew member screwed up and continued to screw up over and over. "Call the tower" after landing is never a good sign that they're happy, but it's actually better than other options. AF crew member was 100% wrong here.
This blogger doesn't know anything about ATC protocols.
I have dealt with New Yorkers for decades. I even live in Manhattan now. I will never call myself a New Yorker. Here is why.
From a stoically blunt NYC perspective, the ATC did nothing wrong.
- ATC heard AF saying "cross" when they should have been holding short. Obviously, urgency and a very pointed "hold short!" is warranted in this case.
- ATC said "[cross] is the last word you need to say...
I have dealt with New Yorkers for decades. I even live in Manhattan now. I will never call myself a New Yorker. Here is why.
From a stoically blunt NYC perspective, the ATC did nothing wrong.
- ATC heard AF saying "cross" when they should have been holding short. Obviously, urgency and a very pointed "hold short!" is warranted in this case.
- ATC said "[cross] is the last word you need to say when you should be hold short." That's prima facie true. In more polite parts of the world, once the immediate safety risk has been mitigated, ATC would have said something like "whew you scared us there, thought you were saying you were crossing." That gets the same message across without offending the recipient.
- ATC said "I didn't say stop, I didn't say you need to copy the number right now" is arrogantly authoritative, but again, true. ATC said in a pressuring tone that other aircraft are taxiing behind them, true. What more politely cultured ATCs would say is something like "AF, could you please continue taxiing and take the number later, we have to clear the runway." Same message but with diplomacy.
The archetypally cold New Yorker will assess the situation and conclude nothing is wrong. Because New York isn't as refined as the rest of the country, New Yorkers stereotypically only care whether the objective technical outcomes are in order. Famously as the sayings go, New Yorkers respect your time, but not your feelings. New Yorkers are kind, but not nice.
I don't call myself a New Yorker because I like to respect people's time and feelings, and I like people who are kind and nice.
Condescension and haughtiness are so commonplace in New York that there is a very good chance no offense was intended in any of these remarks and that the New Yorker delivering them legitimately cannot understand why the recipient was offended.
New Yorkers ridicule the rest of the country for being "delicate" but the rest of the country considers themselves better mannered. NYC is only 10 million out of 300 million Americans, so the rest of...
Condescension and haughtiness are so commonplace in New York that there is a very good chance no offense was intended in any of these remarks and that the New Yorker delivering them legitimately cannot understand why the recipient was offended.
New Yorkers ridicule the rest of the country for being "delicate" but the rest of the country considers themselves better mannered. NYC is only 10 million out of 300 million Americans, so the rest of the country wins on volume.
You're really bad at writing fan-fic dude, yet you still try.
I feel bad for ATC, these guys are understaffed and overworked like crazy and he unfortunately just let it out on AF. Their work shifts are brutal swinging from day shifts to overnight shifts back and forth, mandatory overtime, working 6 days a week with now relief in sight. The system is at its breaking point and it’s already amazing no one’s been killed yet.
As is often the case with aviation, someone is going to need to die before FAA and/or congress will do something about this massive problem. It will be absolutely awful for those involved (passengers, crew, ATC, and families of all the above) when the incident does arrive, but it is what it is going to take, unfortunately.
I don't care how tired you are though, this behavior is unacceptable.
Yep. And "Yet" being the operative word. There's been so many near-misses in the US lately, that I'm unfortunately convinced that the next mainline mass fatality (which we've fortunately been spared since 2001) will be a runway collision.
But that said, f#ck this guy. Way out of line.
Nobody will be killed.
The fact is human beings are capable of working day+overnight and 6 days a week. It's the norm in medicine (residency + oncall), banking/private equity, biglaw (esp. litigation and mergers & acquisitions), management consulting, and more.
Doctors aren't killing people while performing surgery after being awake for 20 hours.
Yes, doctors are absolutely killing people performing surgery after being awake for 20 hours - it just doesn't make the news therefore no changes. Spend 15 minutes looking up Patient Safety - medical errors are incredibly common.
Again: Why is it ALWAYS JFK lmao