I can’t say I’m terribly surprised, but Delta Air Lines is significantly scaling back its German network. Late last year, the airline cut service to one German airport, and now the airline is discontinuing service to another German airport…
In this post:
Delta axes service to two German cities
As flagged by @IshrionA, Delta appears to be discontinuing its route between Atlanta (ATL) and Stuttgart (STR) as of October 27, 2024. For context, the airline currently flies this route on a year-round basis using Boeing 767-300ERs. However, reservations have been closed as of the start of the winter season, all the way through the end of the schedule.
This spring, Delta had announced plans to make the Stuttgart service seasonal for this upcoming winter, to reflect soft demand in winter. However, the airline is now eliminating this service altogether, and has also closed reservations for next summer.
This comes exactly one year after Delta cuts its service to Dusseldorf (DUS), also out of Atlanta. That route was most recently operated 3x weekly, with a Boeing 767-300ER.
Delta continues to fly to three cities in Germany, including year-round flights to Frankfurt (FRA) and Munich (MUC), plus seasonal flights to Berlin (BER).
Two German cities lose transatlantic links
Delta pulling out of both Dusseldorf and Stuttgart is a pretty meaningful development. For one, these are routes with a lot of history. Delta has been flying to Stuttgart literally for decades, while Delta flew to Dusseldorf between 2006 and 2023, aside from some service pauses during the pandemic.
What’s noteworthy is that for both Dusseldorf and Stuttgart, Delta provided the only transatlantic connections, so both of these airports are now left without flights to North America.
In the case of Stuttgart, the airport never had much transatlantic service, and I have to imagine a large motivation for the Atlanta route was corporate contracts with Mercedes-Benz and Porsche, both of which have their headquarters in Stuttgart.
Dusseldorf is a bit different of a story. It has a lot of business and also has a generally wealthy population. Back in the day, Dusseldorf had quite a bit of transatlantic service. For one, airberlin operated many routes from there, before it went bust. Beyond that, Lufthansa even operated transatlantic flights (with first class) back in the day, including to Chicago (ORD) and Newark (EWR).
I suspect Delta cutting these routes reflects a few factors:
- In general, business travel just hasn’t recovered to pre-pandemic levels, and I imagine these routes were heavily reliant on that, rather than leisure demand
- We’ve increasingly seen airlines try to integrate rail and air packages, and both Dusseldorf and Stuttgart are fairly short train rides from Frankfurt
- Ultimately costs in the airline industry have gone up significantly in recent years, and that makes many marginal routes harder to justify
Bottom line
Last year, Delta canceled Dusseldorf flights, and now Delta will cancel Stuttgart flights. These were the only transatlantic links for two German cities, so this is of course a significant loss for consumers. Given that both of these cities can be reached by train from Frankfurt within a couple of hours, I can’t say I’m surprised. But still, it’s sad to see two unique routes to Germany cut…
What do you make of Delta’s service reductions in Germany?
Terrible. I was so shocked. Catch a train from Frankfurt to Stuttgart with 2 suitcases and a bag. Also, the German train system is terribly unreliable. I am very, very sad.
The other factor is connectivity. Germany is not a SkyTeam hub, but given that they are doing this out of Atlanta you would think there may be some demand from Europe.
I also wanted to add two things:
First we have Eurocom and Africom headquarters in Stuttgart.
Second the Stuttgart Area is substantially wealthier than the Dusseldorf area. Judging by economic success Stuttgart would sustain much more transatlantic service than Düsseldorf.
But Stuttgart is also really close to both Frankfurt and Munich and therefore its Metropolitan area is split between the two, a situation which is quite different to Dusseldorf which is hours away...
I also wanted to add two things:
First we have Eurocom and Africom headquarters in Stuttgart.
Second the Stuttgart Area is substantially wealthier than the Dusseldorf area. Judging by economic success Stuttgart would sustain much more transatlantic service than Düsseldorf.
But Stuttgart is also really close to both Frankfurt and Munich and therefore its Metropolitan area is split between the two, a situation which is quite different to Dusseldorf which is hours away from Frankfurt and even farer away from Munich. Therefore the traffic from Stuttgart is taken up by Fra and MUC.
Delta cancelling Dusseldorf before Stuttgart is another testimony for the difference in signficance.
Dusseldorf and Stuttgart as cities might be roughly equally wealthy, but if we judge by the metropolitan areas Stuttgart is the major economic power not Düsseldorf. Stuttgart together with Munich forms the richest and most succesful part of Germany, with all major premium car manufacturers and most other major firms being based near either.
Therefore Stuttgart is by no means a secondary market it is the area of origin for many or most of Frankfurts business travellers and therefore contributes significantly to Frankfurts success.
Summary is Delta leaving secondary markets in Germany and will continue as their widebody gauge massively increases from the 763 to the 330
No one will be surprised when aa and ua start these markets with the xlr
Except Tim
I have never argued that AA and UA won't start cities with XLRs.
But you can't argue that DL serves any fewer cities than AA or UA are selling RIGHT NOW. Hoping that AA or UA will serve a city so they can have a leg up when they haven't even received their first jet is celebrating just a little too early.
And it is also clear that AA and UA are both willing to...
I have never argued that AA and UA won't start cities with XLRs.
But you can't argue that DL serves any fewer cities than AA or UA are selling RIGHT NOW. Hoping that AA or UA will serve a city so they can have a leg up when they haven't even received their first jet is celebrating just a little too early.
And it is also clear that AA and UA are both willing to do things that do not maximize profitability for reasons that are different for each airline. DL generates the highest profits because it doesn't play status or image games and makes sure that strategically necessary development flying really delivers results
When you start talking about why AA can't make money flying the Atlantic or Pacific and why UA makes half of what DL does on an ASM basis on TATL and TPAC and STILL manages to add flights that DL won't do, then we will have an honest and open discussion.
but you and others can't possibly admit that AA and UA underperform DL so can't possibly talk about what it will take to close that gap
Never argued that delta served fewer
That’s all part of your mind game with yourself that causes you to lose your mind about topics like these.
If you understood anything about geographic profitability, I’d reply to you, but you say the same stupid thing day after day and refuse to learn what data is and isn’t. You’ve been corrected enough. Time to learn or just keep doing what you do… posting the same drivel (I can guess which you’ll pick)
so the summary of this article is that DL is now going to serve the same 3 German cities that UA now serves and has served for years. AA doesn't serve the same 3 German cities.
AA and UA have both served multiple other German cities but don't now so Delta is the last of the big 3 to sustain service to more than FRA, MUC and BER and they did it longer than either AA or UA.
too bad Ben didn't come to that conclusion in the article.
Lmao so the conclusion is that now delta is merely as good as United by your metric?
if your distorted view of the world involves counting the number of cities served, then DL and UA are now on par in Germany.
If it involves something even a tad more objective, then there are vast differences that anyone with a modicum of objectivity can see.
Is this decoupling?
Imagine being such a loser that you’re monitoring a blog comment section at midnight in Atlanta
And no, Tim
It’s not midnight here or anywhere close
Sleep tight and for god’s sake, get a life
Just at midnight? lol
first, I am not in Atlanta or even in the Eastern time zone.
and second, the hypocrisy is that you are the one that put your foot in the mouth and you are the one that can't walk away for fear that I might, no, I will, say something that points out that the fool is you, not me.
lol
Oh tim
I’m impressed you had the self control to go to bed
YOU are the one that was staying up late to monitor this site - YOU ARE THE HYPOCRITE talking about someone else staying up.
lol. I wasn’t
I have a life and a great night. Anyone can see you spent the night replying to people you don’t know since you have no friends of your own
Keep up your fake facade of a name and identify
It’s fun and entertaining
you are so full of it, you can't even tell the truth.
please post the timestamps on your latest post on this article compared to mine.
YOU are the one that stayed up late -2 nights in a row.
Nothing wrong w/ that but don't you dare say about other people
"Imagine being such a loser that you’re monitoring a blog comment section at midnight in Atlanta"
@Dim Sum will personally reply to each and EVERY post on this thread because..Detla (and also because she has no life).
Tim Dunn probably uses his bots so it isn't very personal at all.
If you have read over 100 replies and haven't figured out that Delta is not the issue, then you are, shall we say, slow.
The issue is accuracy and facts. I don't know this other person of which you speak but I participate solely to make sure that facts and accuracy are presented in context.
If it mattered that DL served DUS...
Tim Dunn probably uses his bots so it isn't very personal at all.
If you have read over 100 replies and haven't figured out that Delta is not the issue, then you are, shall we say, slow.
The issue is accuracy and facts. I don't know this other person of which you speak but I participate solely to make sure that facts and accuracy are presented in context.
If it mattered that DL served DUS until a year ago, it matters that UA flew a whole bunch of Pacific routes that were a flop this year and their LAX presence is not larger when accounting for routes like AKL and BNE which they are dropping. in fact, adding PVG doesn't come close to offsetting the capacity that UA is dropping in the S. Pacific.
so, yeah, if you get nothing out of reading these two articles, remember that UA isn't near as great at LAX as Ben would have you belief - and doesn't fly to any more cities in Germany than DL did; in fact, DL lasted longer in cities that UA doesn't serve than any other US carrier.
and I'm betting that UA will try to fly an A321XLR to STR for ego sakes - which will only ensure that they will continue to earn half of the profit flying the Atlantic that DL earns.
@John
Your comment practically pole vaulted over his head.
Mercedes has a large factory in Vance, Alabama. Maybe, after 25 years, they finally have it sorted out.
IIRC, it was originally a STR>ATL>DTW back in the late 1990's when Daimler (Mercedes) bought Chrysler.
Both Mercedes-Benz and Porsche also have their North American Headquarters in Atlanta.
Simple answer: delta can’t compete in secondary German markets and that’s ok
They won’t be able to with their new fleet either. No one will be surprised when AA’s xlr starts str in two years except someone who hates that delta can’t get XLRs in a time efficient manner
There’s only one person that is bothered by this and his fake last name rhymes with Dumb.
more nonsense from you.
Delta and United will serve the exact same 3 German cities... .FRA, MUC and BER.
you want desperately to get the last word in and then post dumb stuff like this.
this said by someone that has the cajones to actually post that he has a driver's license with his user name here.
You’re implying UA and DL are the same size to Germany because they serve the same number of cities there? Not even taking into account BER is seasonal for DL, the idea is laughable.
If you weren’t implying that, why did you say it?
as usual, you can't read. or you want to argue.
Either way, I will take you on.
I said that DL and UA willl now serve the same 3 cities in Germany after cutting STR.
Size has nothing to do with it.
Let me guess that you, like Max, are an insecure male that is excessively preoccupied by size and bring up size when it isn't even mentioned.
walk away. This article will...
as usual, you can't read. or you want to argue.
Either way, I will take you on.
I said that DL and UA willl now serve the same 3 cities in Germany after cutting STR.
Size has nothing to do with it.
Let me guess that you, like Max, are an insecure male that is excessively preoccupied by size and bring up size when it isn't even mentioned.
walk away. This article will be off the first page by tomorrow morning. You, Max and the rest of the "dumb' gang have made big enough fools of yourselves.
I love how you’re so eager for Max and I to leave you alone, now that you’re unable to answer the main points.
You still haven’t explained why you pointed out that DL serves as many cities as UA does (not really, since BER is seasonal) if you weren’t trying to make a false claim about the traffic to one of Europe’s biggest economies.
It is you who is worried about size, you...
I love how you’re so eager for Max and I to leave you alone, now that you’re unable to answer the main points.
You still haven’t explained why you pointed out that DL serves as many cities as UA does (not really, since BER is seasonal) if you weren’t trying to make a false claim about the traffic to one of Europe’s biggest economies.
It is you who is worried about size, you who always brings it up, you who always brings up DL, no matter how irrelevant, you who is disparaged by some of the most respected analysts, you who has an excuse for absolutely everything.
I don’t need the last word especially with the dumb logic on your reply
And if you’re actually this crazy and using your real name, you’re dumber than you write
But it isn’t your real name as you’ve said before and also you’ve used how many other aliases on how many other websites?
But sure… I certainly don’t care about your real name or opinions
Enjoy your Labor Day weekend, Timothy
YOU were the one that was dumb enough to tell us that DL couldn't make secondary cities to Germany work - and yet DL will fly to the exact 3 same cities that UA serves.
UA, as confirmed by other people, served other cities besides the current 3 and gave up on those cities earlier.
YOU are the one that made a fool of yourself and don't have the self-respect to recognize the stupidity of the statements you made and walk away.
Dude
Get a life
Delta is the airline cutting back secondary cities in Germany
Read the tea leaves, Timmy
UA CUT everything except FRA, MUC and BER years ago - and you just figured it out after you spouted off about DL.
The only person that needs to get a life is you - and the first thing you need to get is the self-respect to walk away from a conversation after you crap all over yourself.
No one cares about United
They have a German partner lol
They can fly wherever
And they likely will fly to secondary German cities with the xlr
“Tim”
Tell us about your real name? Your name isn’t common
Though given your political proclivities
It makes sense who you admire and copied a rich guy in texas you wish you could be
But it would be easy to have a blog owner validate your name
You claimed to meet Gary leff
He can validate you unless you’re lying, obviously…
Stuttgart is also home to two four-star Geographic Combatant Commands, so there’s significant military traffic on the STR-ATL route, especially during PCS season.
One other consideration for those that think DL is simply giving up routes to its JV partners:
American, Delta and United ALL serve very similar percentages of their TATL and TPAC routes to their partner hubs.
AA and DL operate as high of a percentage of flights on widebody aircraft to non-partner cities as UA does.
UA operates more and a higher percentage of non-hub flights to Europe because it uses 757s,...
One other consideration for those that think DL is simply giving up routes to its JV partners:
American, Delta and United ALL serve very similar percentages of their TATL and TPAC routes to their partner hubs.
AA and DL operate as high of a percentage of flights on widebody aircraft to non-partner cities as UA does.
UA operates more and a higher percentage of non-hub flights to Europe because it uses 757s, a strategy neither AA or DL do right now.
The notion that DL is dropping this route to turn it over to their JV partner because DL doesn't serve routes if they aren't to JV hubs is simply internet myth.
Over the Pacific, DL operates a LOWER percentage of its network to partner hubs than AA or UA.
A factor could also be government contract awards. American has won these routes for official government travel. With some large commands in Stuggart, travel could be lucrative but not at the GSA rate and the requirement to use the contract carrier.
Why does a simple article on a Delta flight suspension to STR result in an explosion of comments around profitability of airlines to South America and the Pacific? I guess, I do know why...
because Ben put two articles - one about a UA route addition and one about a DL route cancellation - right next to each other because he wanted to stimulate conversation and page clicks.
As has been noted in these two articles, Ben specifically failed to discuss B6' cuts to DCA which is far more strategically significant than any single route that DL or UA could add - but B6 doesn't get the amount of...
because Ben put two articles - one about a UA route addition and one about a DL route cancellation - right next to each other because he wanted to stimulate conversation and page clicks.
As has been noted in these two articles, Ben specifically failed to discuss B6' cuts to DCA which is far more strategically significant than any single route that DL or UA could add - but B6 doesn't get the amount of page clicks.
And as has been noted by some commenters, people want to understand WHY airlines can't make specific routes work and why some don't work.
All US airlines are for-profit companies and so it is absolutely fair to talk about profitability to the extent it is known to decide why airlines do what they do.
There is a whole lot of conjecture and false information beyond that but it is clear that some want to cling to the idea of UA as a big international carrier even though Delta made more money on its Pacific network than UA.
DL also made more than twice as much money as AA or UA domestically so the idea that there are some big accounting games being played to come up with profitability numbers is simply a wishful fantasy of some.
Airlines add and cut routes all the time. Actual apples to apples facts and context is important or else this all becomes just a biased free for all.
United is a "big international carrier" regardless of whether or not its profits internationlly were larger or smaller than Delta's. That's also a fact, whether you like it or not, and really irrelevant to the fact that Delta has chosen to exit Stuttgart.
And I have worked in airline profitablity analysis at several us carriers. how an airline measures route level profitability is ENTIRELY an accounting shell game.
Jason,
ALL the US airlines are for-profit companies. They are driven by how well they deliver profits.
DL has led the US airline industry in profitability for more than a decade; UA's CEO said years ago that it wanted to match DL's profitability and they have made HUGE strides in closing the gap.
But trying to be the biggest RARELY works at being the most profitable. UA realized last winter that its efforts to...
Jason,
ALL the US airlines are for-profit companies. They are driven by how well they deliver profits.
DL has led the US airline industry in profitability for more than a decade; UA's CEO said years ago that it wanted to match DL's profitability and they have made HUGE strides in closing the gap.
But trying to be the biggest RARELY works at being the most profitable. UA realized last winter that its efforts to dump alot of capacity onto the Pacific didn't work - and led DL to be the most profitable US airline across the Pacific while UA lost money (along with AA).
And profitability is only a shell game if you don't understand the big picture. Costs can be moved around but revenue allocation is pretty standardized; you can't interline with other carriers if you have different standards for revenue accounting.
And it still comes down to bottom line profitability Not many people are willing to argue that bottom line profitability is wrong. DL simply makes more money than AA or UA across all of their networks. If you or others don't like profitability by region - which is not different from how companies account for profits in subsidiaries or divisions - then tell us how the global region profitability should change.
You just can't change the bottom line system number - and it is that reality that repeatedly stops people's accusations that global region profitability is all made up and thus irrelevant.
DL simply runs a more profitable network which means it doesn't tolerate the losses that AA and UA do. AA and UA simply fly alot of stuff that doesn't make money no matter how much people want to convince themselves that DL is the carrier that loses money doing X or Y.
Dude- Sorry, you literally wrote "cling to the idea of UA as a big international carrier even though Delta made more money on its Pacific network than UA."
United is a big international carrier, regardless of whether it's more or less profitable than Delta. Deal with it. You're really a loser here.
Tim - I've worked at several US airlines an I was responsible for maximizing profitability. Nobody here is disputing that airlines have a goal of doing so.
You literally said that people are " but it is clear that some want to cling to the idea of UA as a big international carrier even..."
It is possible for it to be true that united is a "big international carrier" even if its profits are...
Tim - I've worked at several US airlines an I was responsible for maximizing profitability. Nobody here is disputing that airlines have a goal of doing so.
You literally said that people are " but it is clear that some want to cling to the idea of UA as a big international carrier even..."
It is possible for it to be true that united is a "big international carrier" even if its profits are less than Delta's. That's fine and it can be true. NOt sure why this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. YEs, apparently Delta is more profitable than United. Fine - NOBODY is disputing that.
United is a big international carrier, despite its profits being less than Delta's. Get over it.
@Tom
Ask a decent question, get a 7 paragraph rant back.
no, just the facts that you don't want to hear.
Tim, I'm reminded of the time Cranky Flier, one of the most respected and fair analysts in the community, pointed out that nobody wants to hear from you. It was from his July 29 "Delta Seems to Have Learned Nothing From Southwest’s 2022 Meltdown" post, trying to get the fake comments to stop while getting a dig in:
"I am sick of comments on every post talking about a commenter who nobody actually wants to hear from."
Why do you think that is?
because I have countered CF just like I do anyone else.
just one example.
He droned on and on and on about DL's Pacific strategy esp. about Tokyo. I told him then what is becoming clear now. NRT was no longer going to be viable as a connecting hub because the local Tokyo traffic would be pulled away from NRT to HND with the highest fare stuff the first to go.
That is...
because I have countered CF just like I do anyone else.
just one example.
He droned on and on and on about DL's Pacific strategy esp. about Tokyo. I told him then what is becoming clear now. NRT was no longer going to be viable as a connecting hub because the local Tokyo traffic would be pulled away from NRT to HND with the highest fare stuff the first to go.
That is exactly what is happening. CF and others know it. He doesn't talk about Tokyo any more.
that's just one example.
He did cover United's TATL and TPAC network by destination and had some of the same commentary/criticism I have had.
I calls balls and strikes for everyone. The analysis he does is solid. that doesn't mean I give him a pass for what he writes any more than I do for Gary or Ben or any commenter whether using a legitimate name or not
As discussed below, NRT is very much a viable connecting hub for the two airlines Delta couldn't compete against, JL & NH.
Say it with me, Tim: "Delta couldn't compete against the past and current connecting hubs of NH and JL at Narita and retreated as a result". It's ok to just say it loud, Tim. Plenty of airlines leave markets and hubs all the time.
but it would be nice if Tim could...
As discussed below, NRT is very much a viable connecting hub for the two airlines Delta couldn't compete against, JL & NH.
Say it with me, Tim: "Delta couldn't compete against the past and current connecting hubs of NH and JL at Narita and retreated as a result". It's ok to just say it loud, Tim. Plenty of airlines leave markets and hubs all the time.
but it would be nice if Tim could get even the slightest bit of self awareness about how no one views him as intelligent, rational, or a wanted commenter. But he seems to have nothing to do in his life except monitor and spam comment sections of various aviation blogs just in case someone may get the wrong impression that Delta can't compete in some markets and withdraws as a result, something every other airline does too (and none of their fans lose their minds over it)
say it with ME
You and AA and UA
Jane,
say it with ME
You and AA and UA along with JL and NH did not have the foresight to recognize that HND being opened to more US traffic would pull traffic off of HND.
Japan made the decision to open HND before covid when Japanese tourism to the US was strong.
Japan's monetary policy has dramatically differed from the Fed since covid and the yen is much weaker. There...
Jane,
say it with ME
You and AA and UA along with JL and NH did not have the foresight to recognize that HND being opened to more US traffic would pull traffic off of HND.
Japan made the decision to open HND before covid when Japanese tourism to the US was strong.
Japan's monetary policy has dramatically differed from the Fed since covid and the yen is much weaker. There is no expectation that the yen -dollar relationship will return to where it was before.
It was the strong yen that created enough demand to support NRT and HND capacity.
HND routes are now getting far higher average fares than NRT to US routes.
As much as you want to believe otherwise, NRT as a local Tokyo market airport has economically collapsed. but the Japanese government's intention all along was for NRT to be for low cost carriers and HND for legacy carriers including their longhaul routes. But HND does not have the capacity to add any more longhaul flights.
AA/JL and UA/NH hold onto their NRT hubs because it is all they have - they got JVs for the Open Skies that were granted to NRT but not HND.
DL moved its connecting traffic to ICN; there is far more and far more valuable local demand at ICN than at NRT and ICN has far better service to the rest of Asia than either Tokyo airport.
DL made the right call. CF and others that harped on about DL's Tokyo strategy don't talk about it because the results are increasingly apparent - and explain in part why AA and UAs Pacific network profitability lags DL's even on an ASM basis.
it would be nice if you actually KNEW facts and then discussed based on reality - but that isn't what is happening so we end up w/ bloated comment sections because people like you can't bring yourself to admit that I was right and DL made the right decision to walk away from NRT.
Sorry, tim
Was that an 11 paragraph reply (and a happy hour oopsie post) about how JL and NH have active connecting hubs at Narita but delta can’t compete with them?
I guess so. Because that’s all your post admitted. But wow, you sure put a lot of irrelevant info in there to admit you were wrong.
say it with me: delta couldn’t compete against two other hubs (where they had a massive...
Sorry, tim
Was that an 11 paragraph reply (and a happy hour oopsie post) about how JL and NH have active connecting hubs at Narita but delta can’t compete with them?
I guess so. Because that’s all your post admitted. But wow, you sure put a lot of irrelevant info in there to admit you were wrong.
say it with me: delta couldn’t compete against two other hubs (where they had a massive historical advantage) at Narita so they retreated (after a cringeworthy attempt to pull their huge crush prom date, JAL, away from aa)
But I’m very glad you can go back to your ICN corner and console yourself
you are indeed sorry, Jane.
You simply can't accept that Tokyo as a connecting hub no longer works because the Japanese government made the decision to shift legacy carrier traffic to HND and turn NRT into a low cost carrier but didn't open enough HND capacity to allow AA, JL, UA or NH - in addition to DL - to operate Asian hubs at HND.
You need only look at LGW/LHR and CDG/ORY to see...
you are indeed sorry, Jane.
You simply can't accept that Tokyo as a connecting hub no longer works because the Japanese government made the decision to shift legacy carrier traffic to HND and turn NRT into a low cost carrier but didn't open enough HND capacity to allow AA, JL, UA or NH - in addition to DL - to operate Asian hubs at HND.
You need only look at LGW/LHR and CDG/ORY to see how well the NRT/HND will work - or you can accept the fact that HND is already pulling all of the high value local Tokyo revenue off of NRT flights.
Japan shot itself in the foot regarding connecting traffic. S. Korea figured it out because ICN already carries more Asian traffic than Tokyo EVER will.
DL moved its connecting hub to ICN and carries more Asian connecting traffic through ICN than AA or UA do through Tokyo with their JV partners.
And DL is still the largest US carrier on its own metal between HND and the US.
Go to the bar and have a drink.
DL outsmarted AA and UA once again - this time it is regarding connecting hubs in NE Asia.
I can’t believe Tim Dunn just admitted that DL’s split hub operation in NYC in LGA and JFK is inferior to UA’s hub in EWR (and other hubs in general), since they have to split traffic between airports, just like they do in TYO, PAR, and LON.
Of course HND and NRT support huge amounts of traffic, both local and connecting. The NH/UA and JL/AA JVs do well in there, splitting the majority of...
I can’t believe Tim Dunn just admitted that DL’s split hub operation in NYC in LGA and JFK is inferior to UA’s hub in EWR (and other hubs in general), since they have to split traffic between airports, just like they do in TYO, PAR, and LON.
Of course HND and NRT support huge amounts of traffic, both local and connecting. The NH/UA and JL/AA JVs do well in there, splitting the majority of the traffic between them. DL doesn’t succeed there because their business model is vastly inferior, already giving up one of the valuable slots they fought for while trying unsuccessfully to move another to an alternate gateway.
So now Tim is in an awkward position, caught in the trap he ultimately ended up in through his convuluted logic and double standards. Will he now backtrack and admit that, Tokyo, as one of the largest aviation markets in the world, can handle two airports to handle the huge volumes?
Of course we all know what he’ll do. He explain that split hubs don’t work for anyone anywhere, except for DL in NYC.
go to bed, Mark.
You continue to make logical leaps that are completely inaccurate = because you can't accept that DL outsmarted UA.
LGA is not a longhaul international airport. Both HND and NRT are longhaul international airports.
EWR doesn't work near as well as DL's JFK and EWR hub combo as demonstrated by the fact that DL operates 15% more flights from NYC than UA.
go to bed. You used up the few...
go to bed, Mark.
You continue to make logical leaps that are completely inaccurate = because you can't accept that DL outsmarted UA.
LGA is not a longhaul international airport. Both HND and NRT are longhaul international airports.
EWR doesn't work near as well as DL's JFK and EWR hub combo as demonstrated by the fact that DL operates 15% more flights from NYC than UA.
go to bed. You used up the few brain cells that were needed to come to a logical comparison for NRT vs HND and are now uttering gibberish because you can't stand to admit that NRT is no longer viable as a connecting hub.
If NRT was so great, UA execs don't know it because they tried to move UA's IAH-NRT flight to HND and AA won the route case so added JFK-HND, providing the only US carrier competition from NYC to Tokyo.
no, Mark, NRT is no longer economically viable. As soon as you start telling us why UA makes half of what DL makes flying the Pacific and can manage to avoid admitting the Tokyo airport situation, then we can talk.
UA's Pacific has NRT as a huge noose around UA's neck. DL would love to see AA and UA continue to throw good money away supporting a NRT hub. It is because I understand the airline industry far more than I am loyal to anyone, including DL, that I bring out the facts that you don't want to hear or read.
HND is a long haul international airport? Both JL and NH and widebody departures to points all over Japan. lol
You pointed out exactly why DL’s split hub doesn’t work as well as EWR. The short haul flight to LGA can’t feed the long haul flights at JFK.
You also pointed out DL’s inefficiency in NYC. They operate 15% more flights while carrying less passengers. That reiterates DL’s reliance on RJs while UA offers...
HND is a long haul international airport? Both JL and NH and widebody departures to points all over Japan. lol
You pointed out exactly why DL’s split hub doesn’t work as well as EWR. The short haul flight to LGA can’t feed the long haul flights at JFK.
You also pointed out DL’s inefficiency in NYC. They operate 15% more flights while carrying less passengers. That reiterates DL’s reliance on RJs while UA offers more mainline capacity. The split hubs for DL mean they can’t fill bigger planes, all while UA carries more local and total customers with more mainline capacity.
Fortunately DL’s issues in NYC are not felt by NH and JL in Tokyo, as they run widebody departures from both airports around Asia and within Japan. Again, they’re filling huge planes domestically and internationally.
PS - you still haven’t answered the question posed multiple times. If DL outperforms UA so significantly in international markets, yet financial results are similar, especially when excluding extra AMEX revenue (an advantage only there until UA and Chase renogotiafe their contract), where does UA outperform DL?
So Brett no longer posts about Tokyo because of you? His comment was in a story about DL's poorly-handled meltdown. It had nothing to do with Tokyo.
If he does, it means he consulted you first? The HND slot proceedings are behind us. That is why he doesn't post about it. If another interesting story comes up, he'll post about it again.
The fact that you think you factor into his decisions says so much...
So Brett no longer posts about Tokyo because of you? His comment was in a story about DL's poorly-handled meltdown. It had nothing to do with Tokyo.
If he does, it means he consulted you first? The HND slot proceedings are behind us. That is why he doesn't post about it. If another interesting story comes up, he'll post about it again.
The fact that you think you factor into his decisions says so much about you.
The fact that you are so oblivious as to why you annoy so many people also says so much about you.
And yes, NRT/HND work extremely well for NH/UA and JL/AA.
Mark,
there is nothing in my reply to his article on that day that he debated.
Nowhere did I say that what I say influences what CF or anyone else writes. It is ONLY in YOUR MIND and yours (and your pals here) that you draw conclusions that are completely unsupported by actual facts.
I HAVE praised and criticized CF's work - no different from what I do for Ben or Gary. I...
Mark,
there is nothing in my reply to his article on that day that he debated.
Nowhere did I say that what I say influences what CF or anyone else writes. It is ONLY in YOUR MIND and yours (and your pals here) that you draw conclusions that are completely unsupported by actual facts.
I HAVE praised and criticized CF's work - no different from what I do for Ben or Gary. I have cited CF's work in my own published articles.
And I don't care what CF thinks about me any more than I care what anyone else on the internet thinks.
You can't stand that someone can critically think and both praise and criticize work - and that is why you think dragging the rest of the internet matters.
It only matters in your tiny mind where you want no criticism of whatever matters to you.
And no, NRT does not deliver any where near the profits it once did or as well as just about any other city in Asia that is served by US carriers. You ignore the facts you don't know because you and jane can't accept that I was right about Tokyo. NRT is, in fact, a huge drag on AA and UA's profits because HND pulls off the highest value local Tokyo traffic and because NRT is much smaller as a purely connecting airport compared to other Asian airports and esp. ICN.
But feel free to deny reality which anyone with facts knows.
lol. Facts about how unfair Ben is to you? Or that he failed to talk about b6 dca cuts when there’s an article on it now?
How dare he not consult you for his article release timing ;)
Facts that United is a far bigger international carrier than delta? Get a grip. Reality is waiting for you right outside your basement door.
One Dunn don't make a right.
Delta should just stop flying international routes and just leave it to their partners.
why?
DL made a $1.9 billion profit on its international network in 2023, UA made $1.3 billion and AA made about $25 MILLION - or rather it doesn't make money flying international - driven by its Atlantic and Pacific networks.
DL should add MORE international flights - and will - because it manages to do so more profitably.
That is probably why DL is taking delivery of 14 new widebodies this year, 11 next...
why?
DL made a $1.9 billion profit on its international network in 2023, UA made $1.3 billion and AA made about $25 MILLION - or rather it doesn't make money flying international - driven by its Atlantic and Pacific networks.
DL should add MORE international flights - and will - because it manages to do so more profitably.
That is probably why DL is taking delivery of 14 new widebodies this year, 11 next year and who knows how many of the 20 A350-1000s and 20 more options in 2026 and beyond.
As with its domestic network, DL manages to make more money than its competitors which is precisely why DL will keep growing. As long as AA and UA can make money, DL can make more.
DL has no 'secret sauce' that is going to make it magically more profitable if it takes delivery of a bunch of widebodies and expands internationally. The only reason why DL manages to make more money domestically is because of stronghold hubs like ATL, which they don't have for international flying. UA has much better hubs especially on the Pacific for international flying. If UA struggles with SFO to the Pacific, there is no way...
DL has no 'secret sauce' that is going to make it magically more profitable if it takes delivery of a bunch of widebodies and expands internationally. The only reason why DL manages to make more money domestically is because of stronghold hubs like ATL, which they don't have for international flying. UA has much better hubs especially on the Pacific for international flying. If UA struggles with SFO to the Pacific, there is no way DL will suddenly be able to fly those routes profitably from SEA or whatever. American carriers with high labor costs will always be at a disadvantage. Sounds like DL is setting itself up for failure with these widebodies and should farm it out to JVs immediately.
Porsche North America is HQ'ed next to Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta. Porsche's home is Zuffenhausen, an adjacent suburb of Stuttgart, and a direct flight to Flughafen Stuttgart must be very convenient for American and German execs. Mercedes-Benz' German home is even closer to STR. But I can understand Delta's decision. I visited Stuttgart earlier this year; apart from the German automakers' respective museums (which are terrific), Stuttgart isn't particularly attractive for tourists (vs, say, Berlin or Munich)....
Porsche North America is HQ'ed next to Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta. Porsche's home is Zuffenhausen, an adjacent suburb of Stuttgart, and a direct flight to Flughafen Stuttgart must be very convenient for American and German execs. Mercedes-Benz' German home is even closer to STR. But I can understand Delta's decision. I visited Stuttgart earlier this year; apart from the German automakers' respective museums (which are terrific), Stuttgart isn't particularly attractive for tourists (vs, say, Berlin or Munich). My friends and I flew American from SFO via CLT to FRA where there's a Deutsche Bahn station IN THE AIRPORT; train to Stuttgart Hbf — quick and convenient.
thank you. MB has a plant in Alabama which had well-connected air service to ATL. other plans in the SE include BMW and VW and DL carried plenty of business traffic for all of those automakers.
STR is a casualty of the pandemic and Mercedes and the entire German auto industry's ability to keep working without a bunch of execs flying around the world - which is what buoyed DL's ATL to secondary German city...
thank you. MB has a plant in Alabama which had well-connected air service to ATL. other plans in the SE include BMW and VW and DL carried plenty of business traffic for all of those automakers.
STR is a casualty of the pandemic and Mercedes and the entire German auto industry's ability to keep working without a bunch of execs flying around the world - which is what buoyed DL's ATL to secondary German city routes.
the same thing happened with DTW-NGO and DTW-KIX before that which were heavily used by Japanese automakers to connect to their Midwest plants.
market dynamics change. Airlines operate mobile factories. The details of what markets are added is far less important than the trend line of growth and profitability.
Other route reductions and additions will come because that is what happens this time of year.
Sorry Stuttgart is much more than Mercedes‘ and Porsche. Even Swiss people prefer to fly rather from Stuttgart than Frankfurt or Munich.
We did the train for some time from Frankfurt to Stuttgart coming from USA
We decided, we don’t want to do that anymore .
If Delta stops direct flights to Stuttgart they will looses lot of business
for ages back in the 00's DL stopped in Stuttgart to and from Prague. I recall having to wait till the brakes had cooled before we could take off again.
These routes have failed for DL before. Not surprising at all.
and yet DL was the last US carrier to serve either DUS or STR and still managed to make more money across the Atlantic than any other US airline.
and yet DL was the last US carrier to serve either DUS or STR and still managed to make more money across the Atlantic than any other US airline.
Could also be DL got subsidized route offers... Like that Riyadh Air/Riyadh Government Saudi/Saudia Air partnership DL entered into ... Wouldn't be surprised if after this DL announces ATL-RUH & JFK-RUH on A359.
Yeah I was seeing a good amount of space released to partners on this route. So not surprised to see it go.
"You and anyone else that thinks that I care one iota about what anyone thinks about me on the comments section of a website where most people participate anonymously "
@Max Power: Wait! That's not your real name???
I don’t understand why Tim thinks this isn’t my real name…?
I have a Hawaiian driver’s license with my name “MaxPower” right there in black and white for the bouncers. Worked for my buddy, McLovin
Stop attacking Delta! That’s 2 articles this morning that my son feels like you’re attacking him! Get a life Ben! Stop writing facts about Delta!
To spite Tim, you should also write an article about how Delta is cancelling JFK-Bogota in its JV with LATAM Ben (another example that the JV hasn't really moved the needle yet and is unlikely to do so).
For all of the hulabaloo Tim makes about profitability vs revenue, he sure is very selective with his language. He's often happily proclaimed the LATAM-Delta JV being the largest to Latin America from JFK (sure), but proceeds...
To spite Tim, you should also write an article about how Delta is cancelling JFK-Bogota in its JV with LATAM Ben (another example that the JV hasn't really moved the needle yet and is unlikely to do so).
For all of the hulabaloo Tim makes about profitability vs revenue, he sure is very selective with his language. He's often happily proclaimed the LATAM-Delta JV being the largest to Latin America from JFK (sure), but proceeds to decline to mention how Delta significantly underperforms AA in LFs and Yields to Buenos Aires, Rio, and Sao Paulo and is less profitable.
Yet when it works in his benefit in comparing United vs Delta in Asia-Pacific or Europe, he does the opposite. Funny how that works.
first, airlines do not provide data on individual route profitability. The lowest level they report is global region.
second, I have specifically said that AA is the largest to Latin America and also that is where all of their international profits come from.
and third, you still want to use route additions and cancellations as a whipping child. Airlines with just under 1000 mainline aircraft - which all of the big 3 have - SHOULD...
first, airlines do not provide data on individual route profitability. The lowest level they report is global region.
second, I have specifically said that AA is the largest to Latin America and also that is where all of their international profits come from.
and third, you still want to use route additions and cancellations as a whipping child. Airlines with just under 1000 mainline aircraft - which all of the big 3 have - SHOULD BE cancelling and adding routes because there are underperformers, route performance changes, and new opportunities arise.
Most of S. America outside of Argentina is part of the Latam/DL JV. It is just as relevant to note that DL is adding double daily ATL-EZE and SCL including daytime northbound returns - for part of the season while AR has left JFK-EZE and AA and DL will have NYC-EZE service while UA will not.
as much as you and others want to turn this into a piswerng contest, there are people like me that understand the industry and will provide relevant context.
Tim, so it’s not a big deal when UA adjusts its Pacific flying? Or it is?
You’ve made both points.
EVERY for-profit airline SHOULD BE adding and cutting routes because markets change.
Despite the glamor with the size of UA's network, they don't lead in profits in ANY part of the world. They are a big international airline and that is it. They are the 4th largest domestic airline.
facts are what they are.... any single route addition amounts to little for airlines that operate fleets of 1000 mainline aircraft.
trends matter and...
EVERY for-profit airline SHOULD BE adding and cutting routes because markets change.
Despite the glamor with the size of UA's network, they don't lead in profits in ANY part of the world. They are a big international airline and that is it. They are the 4th largest domestic airline.
facts are what they are.... any single route addition amounts to little for airlines that operate fleets of 1000 mainline aircraft.
trends matter and the whole matters but some would rather talk about anecdotes so they can draw inconclusive points.
You didn't answer the question. If UA profits are similar to DL's, especially when DL benefits including extra AMEX revenue are excluded, where does UA outperform DL? (Side note: UA will close that gap when the UA-Chase agreement is renegotiated in a few years)
UA can't underperform everywhere and still have similar profits.
Tim? Selective in his language? Impossible!
What a surprise. Tim finding irrelevant ways to try and keep his comments at the top of the pile
you mean facts that you don't like.
Ben wanted to stir up controversy.
UA announced its decision to start LAX-PVG years ago but he put two DL and UA service articles side by side neither with the relevant facts or context.
I am here to provide that context and the facts regardless of the topic.
Your "Facts" are irrational and weird critiques that the article author provided context around Delta's continued withdrawal from secondary markets in Germany.
And it's going to continue. Delta has no replacement for the 763 and the size it allows them to do to thin routes, to say nothing of just flying a depreciated dump of a plane like the DL 763. It's obvious Delta is going to have to pull back on much of...
Your "Facts" are irrational and weird critiques that the article author provided context around Delta's continued withdrawal from secondary markets in Germany.
And it's going to continue. Delta has no replacement for the 763 and the size it allows them to do to thin routes, to say nothing of just flying a depreciated dump of a plane like the DL 763. It's obvious Delta is going to have to pull back on much of their flying and rely on partner hubs in Europe with their 330NEOs and A350. They're just too big to do dots like STR and DUS.
LAX-PVG... it is actually funny that you've said forever that DL would start the route, they have the best PVG partner, by far, but Delta is too weak across the pacific to start the route but United is strong enough. It is relevant that DL cancelled the route after saying for years they'd start it. It doesn't interest you because you can't think rationally. But again... PVG topic when this article is about DUS/STR? lol
Get a grip and get out to enjoy your labor day weekend. Your mom's basement seems dark and lonely
And he wonders why people make fun of him.
You and anyone else that thinks that I care one iota about what anyone thinks about me on the comments section of a website where most people participate anonymously are the ones that have no life and a distorted perspective of the one you do have.
Oh Timmy, you really don't understand how your comments are dripping with irony.
If you didn't care you wouldn't be replying to so many people.
Yet you didn’t address MaxPower’s points about your flip flopping and changing attitudes on a topic, depending on whether it’s DL or another airline.
MAX wants to think I am flip flopping because he wants to throw his own opinions out as fact while suppressing the facts he doesn't want to hear.
specific to these two articles, Ben thought it was relevant to include DL's cancellation of DUS which happened a year ago in an article about DL's cancellation of STR but then failed to note the routes that UA has dropped from LAX while writing an article about...
MAX wants to think I am flip flopping because he wants to throw his own opinions out as fact while suppressing the facts he doesn't want to hear.
specific to these two articles, Ben thought it was relevant to include DL's cancellation of DUS which happened a year ago in an article about DL's cancellation of STR but then failed to note the routes that UA has dropped from LAX while writing an article about UA's addition of LAX-PVG which was announced a long time ago.
Ben writes what he does to generate controversy and page clicks. Whether you or capable of realizing what he did with these two articles or not, it is clear that he wrote what he did in order to maximize the number of replies by failing to provide an apples to apples comparison of the two situations
It's been a slow week. Give Ben the page clicks he wants. Just don't expect that I or anyone w/ half a brain will let some of his articles go
You really are entertaining, tim
I can’t even imagine how I get into your head to this degree but it sure is wildly amusing how much I seem to hate listening to “facts” about how Ben is so mean to you via context on a topic or obvious fleet and network implications of the 763 going away
Get outside and enjoy the sunshine (or the storms in atl)
I don't live in ATL or care what it is doing there.
what you really want is for me to quit bringing facts into the discussion which you don't want to hear and can't silence.
The 767's future has nothing to do with DL's decision to end STR. Go back and play on a.net and argue with people that think like you and will spend weeks arguing a point without and contrary to facts.
...I don't live in ATL or care what it is doing there.
what you really want is for me to quit bringing facts into the discussion which you don't want to hear and can't silence.
The 767's future has nothing to do with DL's decision to end STR. Go back and play on a.net and argue with people that think like you and will spend weeks arguing a point without and contrary to facts.
Ben isn't mean to me because he talks about a subject to which I can converse. The only people that are warped are those that believe such nonsense.
It is clear that Ben has a fixation with longhaul international routes but it is a given that DL and UA will replace whatever routes they cancel with new routes and cancellations will and should come; for-profit companies quit doing things that are not in their financial best interests and seek new opportunities.
It is far more significant that B6 is dramatically cutting its presence at DCA - a slot controlled airport where B6 has...
It is clear that Ben has a fixation with longhaul international routes but it is a given that DL and UA will replace whatever routes they cancel with new routes and cancellations will and should come; for-profit companies quit doing things that are not in their financial best interests and seek new opportunities.
It is far more significant that B6 is dramatically cutting its presence at DCA - a slot controlled airport where B6 has gained a fairly privileged position because of arguing it is the underdog in AA's hub. B6 is ending and reducing most of the routes it flies from DCA while also trying to get a second SJU flight under the DOT's current beyond-perimeter route case.
B6 is shrinking overall - something AA, DL and UA are not doing - and B6 is reducing its presence even in a slot-controlled airport.
It is far more significant strategically the number of routes that B6 is cutting than what DL and UA are doing but Ben isn't covering B6' changes while Gary is.
It's fine for this blog to report on major international air routes being cut. I'm interested in why a major airline can't make this destination work. Long may OMAAT report on it. And JetBlue's cuts at Washington for that matter. If it's not for you, just read the next article.
I am perfectly happy to see OMAAT report on any route additions.
But if Ben wants to talk about context by including DUS which hasn't operated for a year, then why shouldn't we also talk about the LAX to S. Pacific routes that UA started, did very poorly on, and are not returning for 2024.
Some people can't understand that Ben posts stuff here so he can get comments which help him sell credit cards.
...I am perfectly happy to see OMAAT report on any route additions.
But if Ben wants to talk about context by including DUS which hasn't operated for a year, then why shouldn't we also talk about the LAX to S. Pacific routes that UA started, did very poorly on, and are not returning for 2024.
Some people can't understand that Ben posts stuff here so he can get comments which help him sell credit cards.
And it is far more relevant that B6 has whacked a quarter of its flights at DCA than anything that DL or UA do with a single route anywhere on their networks -and yet Ben isn't covering B6's moves at DCA.
The only people that are wrapped up are those that think aviation social media is a tool for extracting their personal vengeance on others and the companies they dislike/others like.
Is it true that Delta has or had nonstop service to Berlin from Atlanta?
No only seasonal service from JFK on the outdated Boeing 767 - strong chance that one more 767s get retired that route goes away
don't even go there.
You and others fail to understand that DL says that the 767-300ERs will end international service by 2028 and leave the fleet by 2030 which means that they will fly the last couple years domestically.
The 767-400 and A330-200 are the next largest aircraft in DL's fleet; DL will step up from the 767-300 to the -400 and the 332 when the 763s are retired. There will be no immediate step...
don't even go there.
You and others fail to understand that DL says that the 767-300ERs will end international service by 2028 and leave the fleet by 2030 which means that they will fly the last couple years domestically.
The 767-400 and A330-200 are the next largest aircraft in DL's fleet; DL will step up from the 767-300 to the -400 and the 332 when the 763s are retired. There will be no immediate step up from the 763 to the 339s which DL is taking delivery of.
UA also flies both the 763 and 764 and both of their fleets of those aircraft are older (slightly) than DL's. you can look at flight cancellation data to see that UA's 757, 767 and 772 fleets have higher cancellation rates than either the 787 or 773s or DL's 767s.
and DL is retiring the 763s. a couple have already left the fleet this year and will later this year. there are several groups of 767s that will be retired over the next 5 years before the last batch retires at the end of the decade.
the 339 costs less to operate than the 767-300ER even though the 339 costs more to acquire - and DL reportedly pays less than $100 million for each 339 even before the engine maintenance savings it gets since it has MRO rights on all current Rolls Royce engines.
DL is not and will not be restricted in its ability to serve any city that currently has 767 service.
DL is cancelling STR because the revenue is there and wouldn't be with any widebody.
DL has made the decision not to fly narrowbodies to the UK or beyond while AA and UA are clinging to the 321XLR.
"DL is cancelling STR because the revenue is there"
A good enough reason to cancel a route lol
"not"
"dont even go there", Greg. How dare you assume secondary markets for Germany are going away as the 767 goes away. :)
As someone who's lived in Germany for almost a decade now, I wish I could relate to the idea that the "convenience" of the "fairly short train ride" is either a business case for the discontinuation of the routes (particularly STR, which is mine) or softens the blow of their loss.
Living in Stuttgart, we will no longer take same-day trains to Frankfurt Airport unless the flight departs past 2 p.m., and even then leave...
As someone who's lived in Germany for almost a decade now, I wish I could relate to the idea that the "convenience" of the "fairly short train ride" is either a business case for the discontinuation of the routes (particularly STR, which is mine) or softens the blow of their loss.
Living in Stuttgart, we will no longer take same-day trains to Frankfurt Airport unless the flight departs past 2 p.m., and even then leave at least 1.5 hours extra buffer for delays and cancellations, because of Deutsche Bahn's unreliability on a journey that's supposed to take around 75 minutes. Through December, there's only around half a dozen direct trains a day, taking at least 45 minutes longer than usual, because of track work. It's hardly convenient, and because of flight times, we're usually doing overnight stays at an airport hotel.
And as someone who travels to the U.S. from Stuttgart several times a year for both work and pleasure, but mostly to secondary cities, the Atlanta route was a godsend.
San Antonio, Key West, Kansas City, Little Rock, and Daytona Beach are all destinations I've traveled to fairly recently that are all convenient one-stop itineraries from STR with DL via ATL. (I have Global Entry and almost always travel carry-on only, so U.S. Customs and Immigration is typically just a walkthrough. I know this is not the case for most.)
Now there'll be at least one more stop each way, a longer travel time of at least several hours, and a far greater chance of the whole itinerary falling apart. I already had to deal with that as the route was turned seasonal post-COVID, and it's a huge headache.
Looks like I'll have to get a lot more used to sprinting through connections and then feeling exhausted at the end of it. Schade.
Frees up aircraft to add a service to Scandinavia to tie up with SAS now they are partners.
ben clearly needs some page clicks so wants to start a piu8ng contest.
First, DL had more secondary destinations in Germany with DUS and STR than any other US airline. DL was the only carrier to those markets.
DUS was much more leisure focused but UA never served it - IIRC - while AA has and axed it years ago.
AA also served STR at one time while DL retained it, largely supported...
ben clearly needs some page clicks so wants to start a piu8ng contest.
First, DL had more secondary destinations in Germany with DUS and STR than any other US airline. DL was the only carrier to those markets.
DUS was much more leisure focused but UA never served it - IIRC - while AA has and axed it years ago.
AA also served STR at one time while DL retained it, largely supported by the auto industry in the SE and served on a one-stop basis for years.
UA has never served as many secondary German cities as DL or even AA did. UA relies on LH's FRA/MUC hub which is exactly the way LH wants it.
STR and DUS are well within the capture area for AMS and DL/KL have carried a higher share of TATL traffic from western Germany than LH/UA has.
and DL still made 2X as much money flying the Atlantic in 2023 than United while American lost money. It is notable that UA's execs noted the underperformance of the Atlantic for UA and didn't grow that region.
Despite the fixation with size that so many have, AA, DL and UA are all for-profit companies. Routes change but the goal of a for-profit company does not.
and with 14 new delivery A350s and A330NEOs in 2024, most of which are being delivered too late to be used for 2024 peak schedules, on top of almost a dozen more in 2025, DL will be adding many new routes for 2025 including routes that AA and/or UA previously flew or have suggested they want to fly but cannot or are not flying now.
Delta is dropping it. Obviously it didnt work out for them. I dont think anybody is disputing the notion that airlines are for-profit companies. Delta certainly isnt. That's why they're dropping these cities - they're not profitable anymore for Delta.
Who cares that they're getting all these airplanes and may grow to new cities "that AA and or UA previously flew or have suggested they want to fly but cannot or are not flying...
Delta is dropping it. Obviously it didnt work out for them. I dont think anybody is disputing the notion that airlines are for-profit companies. Delta certainly isnt. That's why they're dropping these cities - they're not profitable anymore for Delta.
Who cares that they're getting all these airplanes and may grow to new cities "that AA and or UA previously flew or have suggested they want to fly but cannot or are not flying now" - that's pure hypothesis on your end, not substantiated in any way shape or form, and reallly has nothing to do with the fact that DL is dropping service to unprofitable markets, just as all airlines do at one point or another.
United did serve Dusseldorf, from Chicago and later Washington Dulles, but stopped that years ago.
so DUS hasn't worked for UA from not just one but two hubs. thanks for clarifying.
and I get - and specifically noted - that routes change. Airlines have mobile factories.
there are people that invariably tout the size of networks as indications of success - and Ben has been one of those people.
UA - home country of UA's alliance partner - loves to tout size - but it significantly trails DL in profitability....
so DUS hasn't worked for UA from not just one but two hubs. thanks for clarifying.
and I get - and specifically noted - that routes change. Airlines have mobile factories.
there are people that invariably tout the size of networks as indications of success - and Ben has been one of those people.
UA - home country of UA's alliance partner - loves to tout size - but it significantly trails DL in profitability. DL's global network made 50% more than UA's.
and growth is part of every profitable airline. During covid, DL pushed back its new aircraft deliveries to 2024 because it wanted to ensure it had the cash to take those deliveries and DL is now receiving more than a dozen new Airbus widebodies per year in 2024 and 2025.
United ALSO wanted to take delivery of more than a dozen new 787s per year but Boeing is not delivering. American had just a handful of new 787 deliveries and those are also late.
This is always the time of year when route cancellations come FOLLOWED BY new route announcements.
The sheer changes in fleet size will dictate the cadence of route announcements.
DL will remain as the most profitable US airline not just overall but in foreign markets.
And DL will be growing its international route network the most in 2025 and beyond.
Tim - just curious, what do you think these new routes should be?
obviously DL hasn't announced anything but there are rumors of a return to SIN and HKG - both from the west coast - and BOM from JFK.
In addition, DL is waiting for the DOJ to announce a decision on the Korean/Asiana merger which will undoubtedly involve some sort of concessions to allow access to competitors since DL and KE have the largest transpacific joint venture.
DL is ready to start LAX and JFK...
obviously DL hasn't announced anything but there are rumors of a return to SIN and HKG - both from the west coast - and BOM from JFK.
In addition, DL is waiting for the DOJ to announce a decision on the Korean/Asiana merger which will undoubtedly involve some sort of concessions to allow access to competitors since DL and KE have the largest transpacific joint venture.
DL is ready to start LAX and JFK to ICN and SLC is likely to get an ICN flight at some point.
With all of the A350 new deliveries that are coming - on top of the conversion of the 9 ex-Latam A350s to DL standard international configuration rather than their current use as high capacity less-than-premium aircraft - DL will add at least one new A350 pilot base. JFK is likely to be one and the A350 will likely see other routes besides ICN and BOM in time - and either SLC or SEA. DL appears to be set to keep growing SEA and LAX across the Pacific but LAX is already an A350 pilot base for DL. The A350 is also a better plane for flying SLC to Europe. A330NEOs - which are still being delivered - will increasingly be shifted to the Atlantic and S. America. LAX-HND becomes an A350 route this fall.
I'm not saying Delta isnt profitable or isnt making a profit maximizing decision. They are.
I just dont know why you go on and on about things that arent relevant here.
Who cares that United dropped these routes? They dropped them long ago (like in 2005 or so in Duseldorf). Didnt work then, didnt work now, and United knows where it makes money in Germany, and that's where it deploys its assets.
so what is the relevance of DL dropping DUS a year ago to the current discussion and yet Ben threw it in?
What difference does it matter whether AA and UA served DUS years ago but don't now?
Ben threw in DL's DUS cancellation last year to generate controversy but it has no more relevance to DL's STR cancellation decision - which never returned to daily year round service post covid - than what...
so what is the relevance of DL dropping DUS a year ago to the current discussion and yet Ben threw it in?
What difference does it matter whether AA and UA served DUS years ago but don't now?
Ben threw in DL's DUS cancellation last year to generate controversy but it has no more relevance to DL's STR cancellation decision - which never returned to daily year round service post covid - than what any other airline did in the past.
and it is as relevant to note that airlines regularly add and drop routes because market conditions change.
DL has consistently made the best decisions with regard to profitability across both the Atlantic and Pacific.
and this story does go hand in hand with Ben's story about UA re-adding LAX-PVG.
“Threw in” a delta route cancellation to “generate controversy.”
You are so insane it’s hilarious
It really is terribly amusing how riled you get over absolution nothing, tim. Most people think the DUS is an interesting aside to the str drop, you just can’t deal with any inference that delta has a trend of backing off
And you go back to your “Atlantic” profitability nonsense proving you don’t understand much about geographic region profitability.
It must be very funny for blog owners to see you fly off the handle like...
It really is terribly amusing how riled you get over absolution nothing, tim. Most people think the DUS is an interesting aside to the str drop, you just can’t deal with any inference that delta has a trend of backing off
And you go back to your “Atlantic” profitability nonsense proving you don’t understand much about geographic region profitability.
It must be very funny for blog owners to see you fly off the handle like you do on these random topics. Perhaps you’ll start attacking Ben today like you did Gary the last few days. You do entertain
the only person that is flying off the handle is you.
Ben wanted controversy and page clicks and I am providing the facts and context you don't want.
DL made twice as much money flying the Atlantic as UA in 2023 while AA lost money in that region.
You don't want those facts even though they are reported by the airlines themselves to the DOT.
If you don't like that data then let us...
the only person that is flying off the handle is you.
Ben wanted controversy and page clicks and I am providing the facts and context you don't want.
DL made twice as much money flying the Atlantic as UA in 2023 while AA lost money in that region.
You don't want those facts even though they are reported by the airlines themselves to the DOT.
If you don't like that data then let us know how they should be restated but the numbers still have to add up to the bottom line profitability each airline reported on their income statements.
DL made $2 billion more than UA in 2023 on the bottom line and 3 billion more than AA.
DL's international network generated 50% more profits than UA's even though UA's was larger.
DL's domestic network was more than 2X as profitable as AA or UA - and a bigger multiple than WN.
All of these airlines are for-profit companies. Fixation with details only matters IF you want to forget context.
DL simply makes the best decisions in the industry regarding its network. That is factual.
UA touts the size of its network but omits how much less money it makes and how much more pollution it generates even on an ASM basis than either AA or DL.
AA doesn't even try to pretend it is in the same league as DL or UA in being a global carrier - but AA still makes money only in Latin America and its Latin profits are just barely larger than the losses it records flying the Atlantic and Pacific.
Those are facts whether you want to hear them or not and they are as relevant to the discussion as whatever network details you or anyone else want to talk about
The facts are that Delta is more profitable than UA or AA. That's about it. The rest of it is an exercise in accounting. And if you wanted to look at geographic reporting of regional profitability if there was a way to do it apples to apples (which there isn't), you'd need to do it on an operating income or EBITDAR basis, at least, to cancel out the sizeable debt AA has. Debt absolutely influences...
The facts are that Delta is more profitable than UA or AA. That's about it. The rest of it is an exercise in accounting. And if you wanted to look at geographic reporting of regional profitability if there was a way to do it apples to apples (which there isn't), you'd need to do it on an operating income or EBITDAR basis, at least, to cancel out the sizeable debt AA has. Debt absolutely influences AA's P&L, but it's rather dumb and elementary of you to talk about network comparisons like you do on a net income basis. Of course AA isn't as profitable as Delta. There are many reasons for that: Monopoly hubs (that you hate for some reason even though Delta brags about them in their own investor materials as the source of their outsized profits), non-union (aka. ability to fire low performers and less unproductive time), and a great credit card deal (largely blamed on consumers that seem too ignorant about mileage value to influence their own purchasing decisions).
But AA's network is largely fine and profitable, it's the non op line that weighs them down
Again, where does UA outperform DL if their profits are similar and DL international blows UA international out of the water? Is UA more profitable domestically?
Lol the one starting anything here is Tim Dunn. He can't just accept the fact yes, Delta is dropping this route and already dropped the other one but somehow feels the need to provide some sort of context and compare it to other airlines and why DL is still doing a better job because he needs the stock price to go up because he has invested in the stocks and zzzz.
julia,
you neither understand what I wrote or economics.
1. I have buy recommendations on both DAL and UAL. I have no interest in seeing one rise any more than the other.
2. Ben writes articles and leaves comments open to generate pageclicks selling credit cards; you are the only fool if you don't understand that you are being played by Ben for not understanding what motivates him in the comments section.
julia,
you neither understand what I wrote or economics.
1. I have buy recommendations on both DAL and UAL. I have no interest in seeing one rise any more than the other.
2. Ben writes articles and leaves comments open to generate pageclicks selling credit cards; you are the only fool if you don't understand that you are being played by Ben for not understanding what motivates him in the comments section.
3. Airlines the size of AA, DL and UA should be cancelling routes and adding new ones. The fact that all of the big 3 have served these secondary German cities actually says that DL figured out how to make them work longer than AA or UA could.
4. blog writers such as Cranky Flier deal w/ facts and data which Ben doesn't even know how to find. CF noted how poorly UA's capacity dumping exercise across the Pacific last winter went and, guess what, UA is not repeating it this year, including ending multiple routes that it flew last winter.
UA is a business and its execs know it. It is only people like you that want to suppress business facts that some of us know even as you and others selectively forget the mistakes that UA has made in its quest to remain the US' largest international carrier.
I understand what you write and it's a load of BS.
We're not the ones being "played" by Ben, YOU are. You're just too mental to realize it. Denial really isn't just a river in Egypt.
@Tim - do you think BOM makes as much sense for DL as it did previously when it had jet airways as partner for connecting fees? Ironically it’d go head to head with AI on that route with possibly an ex-DL 772.
Back in the day, didn't Delta (1980s-ish) have intra-Europe flights from Germany based on routes and rights it picked up from TWA or Pan American? Or am I imagining this?
I actually don't mind this as I'd rather fly Air France to Paris and then Air France from Paris to wherever in Europe. I flew Delta One from Frankfurt last week. First international flight on Delta in two years. It reminded me of how bad...
Back in the day, didn't Delta (1980s-ish) have intra-Europe flights from Germany based on routes and rights it picked up from TWA or Pan American? Or am I imagining this?
I actually don't mind this as I'd rather fly Air France to Paris and then Air France from Paris to wherever in Europe. I flew Delta One from Frankfurt last week. First international flight on Delta in two years. It reminded me of how bad Delta One is compared to Air France's product. Sure, the bedding is marginally better but EVERYTHING else on Air France is better and more elegant. Food, drinks, service.
Delta bought the Pan Am transatlantic assets in 1991 which included the FRA hub. From FRA, DL served cities like WAW, PRG, cities in Russia and ATH and more. Some of the cities like ATH and PRG are served from the US while DL has dropped several routes.
DL never flew any intra-German routes including to STR; the acquisition of Pan Am's transatlantic routes came after German reunification. the Pan Am internal German network included...
Delta bought the Pan Am transatlantic assets in 1991 which included the FRA hub. From FRA, DL served cities like WAW, PRG, cities in Russia and ATH and more. Some of the cities like ATH and PRG are served from the US while DL has dropped several routes.
DL never flew any intra-German routes including to STR; the acquisition of Pan Am's transatlantic routes came after German reunification. the Pan Am internal German network included flights to Berlin Tegel airport which was part of serving West Berlin by western carriers from countries that defeated Germany in WWII.
Just as with DL's Tokyo hub, it isn't a surprise that Germany and Japan wanted to get rid of vestiges of the spoils of war.
Except that delta lost nothing from TYO
They just cried a lot about not getting a hub at Haneda, tried to convince JAL to be their best friend, then ultimately decided they couldn’t compete against the Japanese carriers and gave up. And delta is still giving up in Tokyo lost Haneda slots…
Honolulu is likely the next one delta will give up
DL gave up the right to hub at Tokyo because it chose to serve HND where the local market is rather than NRT.
DL deepened its relationship w/ KE - both of which are founding members of SkyTeam but didn't play nicely together for years - and the DL/KE JV is now the largest by joint capacity.
DL shifted its Asia connecting capacity to ICN and is restarting the cities in Asia it will serve...
DL gave up the right to hub at Tokyo because it chose to serve HND where the local market is rather than NRT.
DL deepened its relationship w/ KE - both of which are founding members of SkyTeam but didn't play nicely together for years - and the DL/KE JV is now the largest by joint capacity.
DL shifted its Asia connecting capacity to ICN and is restarting the cities in Asia it will serve with its own metal nonstop from the US.
AA and UA continue to prop up JL and NH's NRT hubs even as NRT - US fares drop because local Tokyo traffic wants to go to HND. DL has the most capacity of US carriers on their own metal from the US to HND.
The Japan to Hawaii market has fallen apart because of the weak yen relative to the USD which has hurt Hawaiian far more than any other carrier. UA used to fly NRT-HNL but now NH does it for the alliance using A380s.
HND-HNL is a very small route for DL but they will hold onto it until Japan fully opens HND to any flights US carriers want to operate - which will be the end of NRT. That is years away from happening at best and until that happens, AA and UA's Pacific profits are negatively impacted by operating with their JV partners into NRT far more than DL is negatively impacted by flying HND-HNL
I know why delta left their TYO hub, they couldn’t compete.
But let’s be clear, it had nothing to do with the Japanese government revoking ww2 “spoils of war”
Say it with me: delta couldn’t compete in Tokyo so they left their hub. They’re still giving up Haneda slots and will likely continue to in HNL
no, you don't know why DL left its Tokyo hub.
They closed Tokyo as a hub because the Japanese government changed the rules and made DL make the choice to either compete to serve HND - which became a route-case airport while NRT has Open Skies - or try to operate dual operations at NRT - where it would certainly lose money as AA and UA are now doing - as well as add service...
no, you don't know why DL left its Tokyo hub.
They closed Tokyo as a hub because the Japanese government changed the rules and made DL make the choice to either compete to serve HND - which became a route-case airport while NRT has Open Skies - or try to operate dual operations at NRT - where it would certainly lose money as AA and UA are now doing - as well as add service at HND.
DL made the decision to route connecting traffic to Asia through ICN, leave NRT, and become the largest US carrier at HND.
Nothing about not being able to compete is accurate and you merely prove your bias and ignorance of the facts by stating something that was not ever and is not now true.
AA and UA pay a price for choosing to have joint ventures with airlines that connect traffic at NRT because the same restrictions that kept DL from moving its beyond NRT flights to HND also keep HND from having the connectivity for Japanese carriers that NRT currently has.
DL saw where this was all going and reduced Tokyo to an origin and destination station on its route map while AA and UA continue to cling to Tokyo as a hub.
:)
Japan didn't change any rules, they just opened up Haneda airport to more international flying. Opening new airports at international cities or opening existing airports to new routes?! oh the horror of it all. How could Delta possibly compete?! It's almost as though anyone would think Delta has to compete in a dynamic environment. But... Delta could not compete and left their rights to operate a hub in Japan.
Again. Say it...
:)
Japan didn't change any rules, they just opened up Haneda airport to more international flying. Opening new airports at international cities or opening existing airports to new routes?! oh the horror of it all. How could Delta possibly compete?! It's almost as though anyone would think Delta has to compete in a dynamic environment. But... Delta could not compete and left their rights to operate a hub in Japan.
Again. Say it with me, Tim: Delta couldn't compete in NRT despite JL & NH STILL operating hubs there to this day alongside HND. Delta couldn't compete and left their "Spoils of war". It had nothing to do with Japan removing delta's rights to anything.
It is, however, wildly entertaining how much it bothers you to admit something so simple: Delta could not compete with their TYO Hub rights and left despite the other two hubbed airlines in Japan operating out of HND and NRT simultaneously just fine.
But, at least you're admitting it would've been foolish for Delta to remain at NRT and operating a hub when they couldn't compete against local carriers. aka. "Certainly lose money" for delta means in layman's terms: They couldn't compete and left. ;)
@Plane Jane
Tim would rather cut off his testicles with a rusty butter knife than ever admit DL couldn't compete at anything or did something wrong.
Stuttgart also has military/DOD stuff. I have actually visited friends in Stuttgart who were involved in this. However, as many have pointed out...
1) For those originating in Stuttgart, you can fly a number of European airlines to a real hub, and connect to a variety of US cities. Unless you are going to Atlanta proper, it may make more sense to do that. When returning from Stuttgart I connected in AMS via KLM, very...
Stuttgart also has military/DOD stuff. I have actually visited friends in Stuttgart who were involved in this. However, as many have pointed out...
1) For those originating in Stuttgart, you can fly a number of European airlines to a real hub, and connect to a variety of US cities. Unless you are going to Atlanta proper, it may make more sense to do that. When returning from Stuttgart I connected in AMS via KLM, very convenient. Rail is also quick.
2) From a US perspective, outside of the direct industry links to Stuttgart and Dusseldorf, there isn't a lot of other business and especially leisure demand. My sense is that outside of Berlin and maybe Munich, Germany is a bit behind in terms of inbound leisure tourism from the US.
3) Berlin remains an odd one for me. I understand Berlin is historically poorer than the Western Germany business cities, and has less business travel overall. But it is still a hugely important city historically and culturally. Great nightlife city. It should sustain more air travel than it does. But it never really has. Again, it boils down to Germany seeming to lag somewhat in international inbound tourism.
You make some good points, Anthony. There's nothing wrong with Germany, it's just over-shadowed by it's far more interesting European neighbours (France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain) as a tourist destination.
It seems to be logical, unfortunately. Both Stuttgart and Düsseldorf are well connected to a number of airline hubs in Europe from which multiple airlines offer a broad range of US destinations. For example, one can fly to all of BA's US targets going via LHR and frankly changing flights in LHR airside is less of a hassle than clearing immigration in ATL and then connecting to your destination... Same argument goes for Airfrance via...
It seems to be logical, unfortunately. Both Stuttgart and Düsseldorf are well connected to a number of airline hubs in Europe from which multiple airlines offer a broad range of US destinations. For example, one can fly to all of BA's US targets going via LHR and frankly changing flights in LHR airside is less of a hassle than clearing immigration in ATL and then connecting to your destination... Same argument goes for Airfrance via Paris, KLM via Amsterdam etc. Hence, from a business perspective, I have multiple alternative airlines to flying to a broad range of US destinations - and that's in addition to the "train + plane" option with LH or any other airline out of Frankfurt.
As Ben alluded it, the real competitor for these routes in the efficient rail connectivity in Germany. Atlanta will not be the final destination for many travelers, so a connecting flight will be necessary. Instead of flying a cramped short haul flight in the U.S., it's possible to take a comparatively comfortable hour-long train ride to Frankfurt where one is connected directly to a significantly larger number of North American destinations.
ATL meant that almost all travelers will have to connect to get to their actual destination, while the Frankfurt hub has a lot of direct flights, both to business and leisure destinations. If there's a connection anyway, it doesn't make a big difference, especially as connecting in the US with the added re-checking baggage step is a pain.
Copying a section of my longer reply that deals specifically with this topic from my personal perspective: As someone who travels to the U.S. from Stuttgart several times a year for both work and pleasure, but mostly to secondary cities, the Atlanta route was a godsend. San Antonio, Key West, Kansas City, Little Rock, and Daytona Beach are all destinations I've traveled to fairly recently that are all convenient one-stop itineraries from STR with DL...
Copying a section of my longer reply that deals specifically with this topic from my personal perspective: As someone who travels to the U.S. from Stuttgart several times a year for both work and pleasure, but mostly to secondary cities, the Atlanta route was a godsend. San Antonio, Key West, Kansas City, Little Rock, and Daytona Beach are all destinations I've traveled to fairly recently that are all convenient one-stop itineraries from STR with DL via ATL. (I have Global Entry and almost always travel carry-on only, so U.S. Customs and Immigration is typically just a walkthrough. I know this is not the case for most.) Now there'll be at least one more stop each way, a longer travel time of at least several hours, and a far greater chance of the whole itinerary falling apart. I've already had this experience in the prior seasonal 'off' period and will have to get more used to it, I guess.
Germans aren't fools for vapor ware
Germany isn't a big enough country for a foreign airline (Delta in this case) to fly anywhere other than Frankfurt. Legacy car manufacturers are also struggling and will get BTFO (blown the f*** out) when Chinese brands like BYD have their sanctions lifted and can export more of their electric prowess to the west.
But as mentioned Delta is also flying to Munich (year round from Atlanta and seasonally from Detroit and JFK), plus seasonal flights to Berlin (from JFK). Are you suggesting that the flights to those two cities will also end soon?
There's plenty of demand to MUC as well. Berlin is a different story; it's (by far) the largest city in Germany. It's the nation's capital as well as being a compelling tourist destination. Yet, it's air connectivity has been poor and continues to be. Honestly, I'm not sure why this is the case, one would think that offering service to BER from the USA would be profitable as there are so few competitors on the...
There's plenty of demand to MUC as well. Berlin is a different story; it's (by far) the largest city in Germany. It's the nation's capital as well as being a compelling tourist destination. Yet, it's air connectivity has been poor and continues to be. Honestly, I'm not sure why this is the case, one would think that offering service to BER from the USA would be profitable as there are so few competitors on the route.
As for Frankfurt, it may be a business center but there's nothing there for the tourist. It's like the fifth or sixth largest city in the country and frankly isn't all that nice. It's a big hub for LH (thanks to the legacy of two Germanys) but that shouldn't matter to DL. So, in good theory, FRA should be the most disposable destination of the three remaining here.
It's pretty unusual for a big capitol city to have poor air connectivity like Berlin does but I imagine part of it has to do with how small and crummy the old airfields were, and partly Cold War holdover of infrastructure and routes. The wall may have gone down but it took almost thirty years to build an airport that could handle the air traffic one associates with an enormous capitol.
And yet, Frankfurt's airport is awful.
THESE ROUTES WERE THE MOST PROFITABLE FLIGHTS TO EUROPE!
Half of the profits probably came from you
I don't get it either. You've got a monopoly on routes that should be quite lucrative. And for a business traveler, taking a train from FRA to Stuttgart is not an adequate option versus flying direct. Doesn't seem logical.
I highly doubt Mercedes and Porsche were filling up the flight 4x a week. Outside of them, who is taking this flight?
US Army...
EUCOM and AFRICOM based in Stuttgart
Did Delta not have the contract for US government flights? Or maybe Delta thinks Trump if he wins will move US forces to Poland like he wanted to do before.
Army isn't buying the front cabin. That's what makes these type of routes profitable is corporate contracts that are paying for the premium seats.
the mocking fool that can't even use his real name.
Beware of guests - ie frauds
Beware of blowhards who shill companies as well, regardless of the veracity of their name.