Early Friday morning, we saw a major global IT outage, which had huge implications for the airline industry. However, no airline had a meltdown quite like Delta, which has canceled over 5,000 flights in the past several days.
While Delta can’t really be blamed for the initial problem, the reason we’ve seen so many cancelations is because Delta’s crew planning software basically stopped working. This had a huge domino effect, and for several days, a vast majority of Delta flights have been delayed or canceled. According to sources I’ve heard from, this is a function of Delta having underinvested in this technology for years.
Delta markets itself as the premium airline in the United States, though the way the airline is treating customers at the moment sure leaves a lot to be desired. We’re now starting to see how the airline is making people whole, and it’s not exactly the best case scenario.
In this post:
How Delta is being stingy with displaced travelers
Delta has started reaching out to travelers who were impacted by the operational issues that we’ve seen in recent days. Under government regulations, the airline of course has to cover necessary expenses that passengers incurred, ranging from hotel stays to ground transportation.
As many people may remember, Southwest had an absolutely massive meltdown in December 2022, largely for the same reasons as Delta (the crew scheduling software stopped working during a very bad situation). However, it’s interesting to contrast the response of the two airlines (and Southwest’s response was hardly impressive at the time).
Two things stood out the most about Southwest’s response:
- The airline offered to reimburse passengers for tickets on other airlines; the airline didn’t legally have to do this, but it was the right thing to do, with many people stranded for days on end, and wanting to get to their destination
- The airline offered 25,000 Rapid Rewards points to each person who got caught up in that mess
That’s quite a contrast to what Delta is doing:
- Delta is explicitly telling people that it won’t reimburse them for tickets on other airlines, and the airline is also not rebooking passengers on other airlines in most situations (and that assumes you can even get in touch with a Delta employee, which is a challenge)
- Delta seems to primarily be compensating customers using Delta SkyMiles, and I’m seeing reports of amounts all over the place; in many cases, the airline is offering passengers just 5,000 to 12,500 miles, barely enough for a premium drink in the Delta One Lounge JFK
I also find it disappointing how Delta isn’t being at all transparent in how it’s communicating with customers. In the email to stranded travelers, the airline simply blames the issue on a vendor technology outage:
Please accept our sincere apologies for the disruption to your recent travel plans caused by a vendor technology outage affecting airlines and companies worldwide.
The airline does nothing to acknowledge that its own crew planning software is the reason the airline has performed so much worse than competitors in recent days.
Delta, this isn’t how a premium airline should act
Delta executives love talking about how the airline is premium. Heck, let’s just quote Delta CEO Ed Bastian during the recent Q2 2024 earnings call:
Premium is more than just putting more room in seats. And it’s the overall experience, right?
Premium is also based on a foundation of overall reliability and service, first and foremost, and that’s what we have focused on and specialized and done better over the last 15 years and then the airline, we continue to get better. In fact, the operations we’ve run this year are the best in the industry across every measure, every month, month in and month out. That gives you then freedom to actually deliver true premium experience as compared to somewhat maybe more superficial experience.
And that, to me, is what we’re best at.
You book Delta, which is so confident in its operational reliability, that the company’s flight status page refers to the airline as “the on-time machine.” The airline tells you at every corner how it’s premium.
Yet when there’s a meltdown, Delta seems to struggle with taking accountability for what happened, and does the absolute minimum for passengers.
Many Delta travelers are finding themselves stranded for days on end. Even as Delta’s operation continues to recover, many passengers can’t be rebooked for many days, given how full flights were already scheduled to be. So to basically tell those customers “tough luck,” and to not offer to reimburse them for tickets on other airlines, is pretty disappointing.
Bottom line
Delta has started reaching out to customers to offer reimbursement for expenses incurred as a result of the carrier’s meltdown. Delta’s current situation is mighty similar to Southwest’s December 2022 meltdown, which ultimately got really bad due to issues with crew planning software.
To me, a key difference is that Southwest offered to reimburse passengers for tickets on other airlines, while Delta has said that it won’t do that. To me that’s disappointing, especially when the carrier’s biggest talking point is how it’s premium because of how operationally reliable it is.
What do you make of Delta’s handling of this situation?
The IT issue is not new to Delta. Just reference the April 2017 meltdown due to weather. Same issue with the pilot and flight attendant issue. Bastian had just become Chairman so he got a pass on that one. He own this one some 7 years later. Continuing to message global meltdown and vendor problem well after everyone else was generally recovered just won’t fly. The execs in the Delta mothership are tone deaf. Of...
The IT issue is not new to Delta. Just reference the April 2017 meltdown due to weather. Same issue with the pilot and flight attendant issue. Bastian had just become Chairman so he got a pass on that one. He own this one some 7 years later. Continuing to message global meltdown and vendor problem well after everyone else was generally recovered just won’t fly. The execs in the Delta mothership are tone deaf. Of course Bastian has headed to the Olympics and we wait until the next meltdown.
That's despicable.
> And that, to me, is what we’re best at.
You're best at BSing! And that's to put it mildly.
I wonder if a massive class action lawsuit is coming. Some big law firms must be salivating.
Nobody wins in a class action other than lawyers. People will be entitled to like 70 cents of payout
Sure, but at least it is a pain to the companies… something to keep them in check given that the government has no strong regulations. we definitely need EU style regulation.
Hopefully there will be an amusing Saturday Night Live satire coming up on the whole debacle soon. That would be very premium.
John Mulaney’s got you covered.
https://vimeo.com/184007423
How is Delta not to blame for the initial problem? They selected to outsource the security maintenance of their systems to Crowdstrike. They selected the vendor. This is no different than if their IT department had made an inadequately tested update themselves. Delta is 100% responsible for the initial problem. It was completely within their control.
@Ray, I don't think you understand IT at all. They didn't outsource maintenance. They used a security vendor who F'd up royally. What crowdstrike does is NOT something companies CAN or SHOULD do themselves. A patch that bricks every windows server and win 10 client it touches is a colossal failure of the vendor. Let me put it this way, if it had been a windows problem, would you have said "they outsourced their operating...
@Ray, I don't think you understand IT at all. They didn't outsource maintenance. They used a security vendor who F'd up royally. What crowdstrike does is NOT something companies CAN or SHOULD do themselves. A patch that bricks every windows server and win 10 client it touches is a colossal failure of the vendor. Let me put it this way, if it had been a windows problem, would you have said "they outsourced their operating system development to a vendor instead of doing it themselves so it's their fault?" It's the same thing.
Wha?! That's not how crowdstrike works but even close. Crowdstrike doesn't handle other companies security. You've probably seen their competitor cloudflare where you go to a website and something pops that says checking to see if you're a human. Crowdstrike serve a variety of services like that including validating web address being accessed hasn't been hijacked by some bad dudes. They do not do things like preventing someone attempting a denial of service attack on...
Wha?! That's not how crowdstrike works but even close. Crowdstrike doesn't handle other companies security. You've probably seen their competitor cloudflare where you go to a website and something pops that says checking to see if you're a human. Crowdstrike serve a variety of services like that including validating web address being accessed hasn't been hijacked by some bad dudes. They do not do things like preventing someone attempting a denial of service attack on your company's authentication server.
Tim Dunn for President 2024!!
First and foremost there is no space on other airlines. Been to an airport this summer? Second, there is nothing premium about any US airline. Third, other than top flyers why would anyone think any airline would go out of it's way and incur additional expenses to get passengers to where they want to be. For the people that love $59 fares and ULCCs this is what you get. Maybe it's time to bring back the days of the CAB.
Real question -- should we ban Tim Dunn or not? I'm all for democratizing this decision. Maybe just a 24-hour to see how it feels around here? What do y'all think?
Yes. I would read a lot more. I would comment substantively a lot more. I would engage more. I’ve stopped because Tim is an ass.
And 24 hours isn’t enough. Try a week-long trial. See if your numbers go down. I bet they go up.
@Ben I don’t mind the guy — he’s sometimes got interesting info and is good for yuks — but there’s no question that the threads about Delta or anything having to do with airline financial performance are now thoroughly dominated by him and those taunting him — in other words, about him. It doesn’t bother me, others’ mileage may vary. I think the call is really yours as to whether that’s what you want on...
@Ben I don’t mind the guy — he’s sometimes got interesting info and is good for yuks — but there’s no question that the threads about Delta or anything having to do with airline financial performance are now thoroughly dominated by him and those taunting him — in other words, about him. It doesn’t bother me, others’ mileage may vary. I think the call is really yours as to whether that’s what you want on your blog or not, and I don’t think there’s a clear right answer.
@Ivan this is how I feel too; he doesn't bother me and tbh his meltdowns are sorta entertaining in a watching-the-train-wreck sort of way, but I also think it would be completely fair for Ben to determine that having the comments on his hard work consistently derailed by a stream of tediously verbose nonsequiturs and factual inaccuracies is boring and unacceptable. Appreciate Ben's openness to democratization but I think this has to be his call,...
@Ivan this is how I feel too; he doesn't bother me and tbh his meltdowns are sorta entertaining in a watching-the-train-wreck sort of way, but I also think it would be completely fair for Ben to determine that having the comments on his hard work consistently derailed by a stream of tediously verbose nonsequiturs and factual inaccuracies is boring and unacceptable. Appreciate Ben's openness to democratization but I think this has to be his call, one way or the other, and I'm happy either way.
Yes! There was a time when there were occasionally interesting, informed insights buried in his clearly biased posts. But that time has long gone — now he's nothing more than noise.
(Honestly Ben, I always imagined that the engagement he brought must be good for your site's metrics and that's why you kept him around. If quality content were a primary consideration for you he really should have been axed some time ago.)
Yes. He has become a distraction. He can never admit he’s wrong. Case in point - this Delta meltdown has been a complete mess, and Tim constantly spins it that UA is doing nearly as bad.
I read this blog less and less because of the constant mean-spirited comments towards one user. He doesn't post offensive content, he just shares an opinion that is different than others (sometimes with good info or logic to back it up) The people that should be banned are the ones that make disparaging comments towards someone that clearly has a passion and a particular perspective about one airline. Additionally, Ben, your public post about banning...
I read this blog less and less because of the constant mean-spirited comments towards one user. He doesn't post offensive content, he just shares an opinion that is different than others (sometimes with good info or logic to back it up) The people that should be banned are the ones that make disparaging comments towards someone that clearly has a passion and a particular perspective about one airline. Additionally, Ben, your public post about banning someone in this way is rude and disappointing. There definitely seem to be other blogs that have more fruitful conversations and seem to be more worth my time than the constant bicker, fighting, and harmful behavior that is on this blog.
@Tyler - like how Tim attacks “Airline employees”? Or accuses other users of being ‘UA-fanboys’ when they are just trying to have a discourse?
As I pointed out above - I’ve stopped reading because as often because of Tim. I chose this name to point out the inconsistencies in his positions, and he attacks me.
He is the one that makes disparaging comments in response to legit questions.
Doesn't seem necessary. It's been a solid decade of reading online comments on a variety of sites, and filtering out the noise should be second-nature by now. He obviously gets great joy out of pumping Delta, whether sincerely or trollish, I cannot say, and maybe he throws in a useful nugget occasionally.
BTW, everyone is free to scroll right past the drivel, once they see his name, and not engage.
I'd be more interested is seeing how much traffic drops if you can only post here as a logged-in Member. Stop the Guest posts & 9/10 of the Timmy Trolling will stop too. If you want to troll or call him out on his data, have the nuts to do it as yourself.
Ben, if you ban him you wouldn’t be the first mod to do so. Airliners and airlineforums for example have banned Tim under multiple handles and IPs.
Or you can do what CrankyFlier does and put heavy moderation on his comments. All comments go to moderation queue, character limit, and limit on number of comments within a time period.
Apparently, you, me, Gary, Brett, airliners and anirlineforums mod all have been bullied in our childhoods according to Tim.
And all of those sites are better for it.
I would rather people just ignore him, but seems like we're long past that point.
To be honest, while I find a lot of what he posts annoying and needless, I also find the imitators and parody accounts equally dumb. If there was a way to ban all of it, would be for it.
Excluding that as an option, would vote to keep him. Hard to say anything he posts is ban-worthy in a conventional sense (e.g. offensive, defamatory, etc.)
I don’t say this lightly, but his participation has gotten to the point where he detracts from the site and distracts from the articles themselves.
I enjoy your writing style, humor, and analysis on so many subjects. I check your blog every day and of course will continue to do so either way. But his comments, double-standards, personal attacks, and distortion of facts to the point of lying makes me feel so drained and...
I don’t say this lightly, but his participation has gotten to the point where he detracts from the site and distracts from the articles themselves.
I enjoy your writing style, humor, and analysis on so many subjects. I check your blog every day and of course will continue to do so either way. But his comments, double-standards, personal attacks, and distortion of facts to the point of lying makes me feel so drained and a bit sad to see what he has done to the site.
The political and non-aviation world is already filled with people like him, and it was nice to have these aviation stories as a temporary escape from that exhausting world.
He no longer comments on Matthew’s blog and it’s so refreshing to see him gone.
I think one week might be a better test than one day, if only because that one day might be a period when he wasn’t going to post anyway.
Long time reader here, I don't usually post on the comment section but I think Tim Dunn needs to be banned here.
I am personally on the side of free speech and open to others opinions. I don't think we should ban him, as he has not been hostile toward readers with threats.
I'd rather people just scroll past posts that are obviously "noise" and not respond to them. I find posts mocking TD just as annoying as some of TD's posts. If you're going to ban TD, might as well ban other users who consistently mock his posts.
Yes, I feel like at this point I only open any Delta-related posts to see the drama unfolding between him and everybody else. And his attacking of you and your family is not only unfair, it is also vicious and mean spirited.
Yes. He's not interesting and the parody accounts clowning on his just add to the noise.
A block setting.
Do it. And be done with him. I was able to tolerate him and acknowledged his points, but his inability to understand that these are blogs about loyalty programs and mileage redemption instead of earnings calls and profit analysis gets annoying.
Beyond that, involving your kid in a post of his is beyond the pale. If his job is to be a paid cheerleader for Delta, then I can't understand how even Delta would...
Do it. And be done with him. I was able to tolerate him and acknowledged his points, but his inability to understand that these are blogs about loyalty programs and mileage redemption instead of earnings calls and profit analysis gets annoying.
Beyond that, involving your kid in a post of his is beyond the pale. If his job is to be a paid cheerleader for Delta, then I can't understand how even Delta would support that...though they did also strand unaccompanied minors all over the country this week.
If nothing else, for your son's sake, he should be banned. He's welcome to start his own blog on BoardingArea.
I would probably read (comments) less and comment more often… downside—missing a hearty round of laughter every morning.
I don't mind @Tim's comments. I mind when @Tim (and another famous poster) attack those who disagree with him by calling them stupid and uninformed. @Tim can stay if he can be civil. That's my vote.
Honestly, he was entertaining for a while. But he has crossed the line during the meltdown. The whole child milk thing is a ridiculous personal attack
History across multiple sites has shown that he can't.
Would it be possible to just add a block or ignore feature instead?
If anything should be banned, it's all the parody accounts that still think they're funny. They're worse than he is, because they egg him on.
Without that, he'll usually just post his (easily skipped) Delta worshiping, then stop.
Agree. I don't even want to read the anti-TimDunn comments.
100% yes.
The attacks on your site's performance and kid are detestable. Worse are the claims that he "wants the site to succeed." Those are nothing more than an attempt to manipulate you in to keeping him around. I'm sure his posts drive traffic and therefore clicks. Every creator wants to make money, and he's hoping you'll subconsciously associate his presence with your success.
It’s funny how dunny thinks he’s actually helping Delta when in reality he’s the pr rep Delta neither asked for or wanted.
Tim Dunn went nowhere on a plane this week. He’s just posting rubbish from his basement.
Ahh Timmy
Got to love how he just gave up and doesn't even bother to respond to half the critiques of him.
Rare moment of humility for him.
5000 skymiles is worth exactly a nickel...
I think this site should be renamed Tim Dunn @ OMAAT
better yet, Ben should eliminate the fraudulent user names just like other sites have done.
But Ben is clearly motivated either by a need for page clicks-
1. since OMAAT ranks well down the list of travel sites in terms of site visits or
2. Ben would rather use his site as a revenge platform - which is exactly why so many people - real customers - said that DL is booking passengers on other airlines and is providing multi-day amenities.
"since OMAAT ranks well down the list of travel sites in terms of site visits"
Source?
Also, who is he getting revenge on?
Dude, you have serious mental issues.
When I’m bored and in need of a laugh, I just come to the comment section with a bag of popcorn. Your readers never fail to make me laugh whenever the topic is on Delta because you know who will be writing a long diatribe and many more will be pointing out his inconsistencies. Too funny.
So, I caught this mess coming and going (literally) - I was supposed to be on AA on Friday heading TO MCO and Delta on Monday coming back.
You can probably guess how well that worked out.
AA tried to push me back a full 24 hours on my flight, so I booked Amtrak. Yeah, I've asked for reimbursement. No, I'm not hopeful, but I have to ask. And yes, TI will help out.
DL...
So, I caught this mess coming and going (literally) - I was supposed to be on AA on Friday heading TO MCO and Delta on Monday coming back.
You can probably guess how well that worked out.
AA tried to push me back a full 24 hours on my flight, so I booked Amtrak. Yeah, I've asked for reimbursement. No, I'm not hopeful, but I have to ask. And yes, TI will help out.
DL cancelled 10 of 16 MCO-ATL flights on Monday. I lost my Monday morning flight Sunday evening, moved to an evening flight...and that evaporated by stages. About the time it hit a three-hour delay (the flight would ultimately go over six hours late and then cancel; I checked and there was nothing in my booked class until Wednesday, and I'm someone who tries to milk these situations for miles and so on) I "tapped out" and grabbed Brightline to Miami for an award ticket I booked on AA (nonstop back home) as a backup as things went bad on DL. The risk of non-reimbursement was, at that point, non-trivial and for a variety of reasons...let's just say that running out of AA miles is not a major concern of mine right now given that I'm chasing status on BA.
I've asked DL to reimburse the train ticket to Miami and my Lyft home (less than $200 total). I've also made a point of noting, in so many words, "Your IT totally fell over on Sunday night. By the time the second flight melted down, it was this or two nights at the Hyatt Regency at MCO while I hope you sort your flight mess out. We both know which is cheaper for you."
Between the Amtrak tickets, Brightline tickets, rideshares, and a meal I think my total attributable expenses are around $800-900. Considering that absent my wrangling I nearly had three hotel nights out of five nights in a row to attribute to this mess, I think I actually exercised a decent amount of restraint. And to be fair, if I hadn't had an impending wedding to attend I'd have probably just chilled in Orlando for two days and gone back over to Disney...and be slapping DL with a $500 hotel+food bill.
Ultimately, I suspect I'll either end up being made whole or coming close to it. I'm a little bit grouchy, but I also got to drown my annoyance in a self-serve martini at the Flagship Lounge in Miami and enjoy a train ride down to Miami, so my annoyance has an upper limit here.
We had a flight booked from BOI to SNA on Sunday. We checked Friday and Saturday, and according to Delta everything was normal. Then 4 hours before the flight on Sunday 2 flights (BOI to SLC and SLC to SNA) were canceled. I had gotten a very good price months ago on 5 first class tickets. Delta automatically rebooked us into the last row of Economy on a flight leaving at 5am in the morning...
We had a flight booked from BOI to SNA on Sunday. We checked Friday and Saturday, and according to Delta everything was normal. Then 4 hours before the flight on Sunday 2 flights (BOI to SLC and SLC to SNA) were canceled. I had gotten a very good price months ago on 5 first class tickets. Delta automatically rebooked us into the last row of Economy on a flight leaving at 5am in the morning on Tuesday (2 days later). As someone with Delta Platinum status I tried calling and waited on hold for 90 mins before giving up. I also tried the online chat and waited for 2 1/2 hours before giving up.
With no other choice I ended up getting the last 2 tickets on Allegiant to SNA and the last 3 tickets on Southwest into LongBeach for a whopping $2,400 total one-way. This cost me more than I had previously paid for the 5 first class on delta.
I canceled my Delta tickets for a full refund and obviously we got home on Sunday. But wow what a mess.
Tim, answer Ben's question.
"So do you think Delta should refund passengers (in cash, after the fact, through a reimbursement form) when they booked tickets on other airlines, like Southwest did?"
It's a Yes or No question, Tim.
A simple Yes or No would be enough. No fluff required or expected, so please respond with no more than 3 letters.
I have no idea who you are but Ben posts his credentials and he knew the answer to the question before he ever wrote it - or else he is much less of a travel expert than he claims to be.
NO US airline that has interline agreements with other airlines as a matter of policy refund passengers and also reimburse for the cost of customer-purchased travel on other airlines.
UA did not do it...
I have no idea who you are but Ben posts his credentials and he knew the answer to the question before he ever wrote it - or else he is much less of a travel expert than he claims to be.
NO US airline that has interline agreements with other airlines as a matter of policy refund passengers and also reimburse for the cost of customer-purchased travel on other airlines.
UA did not do it in its EWR overscheduling originated mass email, AA does not do it, AS and UA did not do it during the MAX meltdown.
DL and every other legacy commits to providing amenities IF their customers choose to wait for DL to get them where they need to go OR
DL can put them on another airline if there is space OR
The customer can request a refund and the passenger can then get themselves to their final destination on their own, incurring all of the incidental costs.
There are always exceptions for interlining legacy carriers but the only reason WN reimbursed tickets which customers bought or WN bought tickets at retail prices for customers directly from airline websites is because WN chose 50 plus years ago not only to not participate in airline GDSs and also not to have interline agreements.
DL and other carriers do make exceptions and likely will reimburse for some passengers esp. high value and loyal customers but it is not the policy to do so at any of the legacy carriers.
In contrast, WN SHOULD participate in interline agreements in order to protect their passengers during the inevitable irregular operations that are part of the industry - but they don't.
@Tim Dunn, others may agree or disagree, but this is at least a rational articulation of a position to answer Ben’s question. Why did it take you so long to come out with it?
I’ve met people on the spectrum who are extremely, often abnormally so, passionate about a particular subject or topic. Unsurprisingly, that obsession often manifests a talent that well exceeds the average, even if that person wouldn’t otherwise be considered a “savant”.
Tim is a unique case that should be studied. People say he’s on the spectrum because he has an unusual obsession with DL, and I along with many others agree. But he frequently makes...
I’ve met people on the spectrum who are extremely, often abnormally so, passionate about a particular subject or topic. Unsurprisingly, that obsession often manifests a talent that well exceeds the average, even if that person wouldn’t otherwise be considered a “savant”.
Tim is a unique case that should be studied. People say he’s on the spectrum because he has an unusual obsession with DL, and I along with many others agree. But he frequently makes factually incorrect claims on even the most remedial datasets. Based on his ratings on seekingalpha, his success rate and returns are graded well below average for aviation with massive blunders such as going long on WN before their infamous meltdown. I’ve never seen so much obsession followed by such an absence of talent as expressed in Tim.
“I have been through DL hubs other than ATL this week and they are working pretty well.”
False. This week? Today is still Tuesday and the meltdown happened on Friday. The next 3 airports excluding ATL that led in misery rates were MSP, LGA, and DTW. All three had double digit cancellation and delay rates on Monday and Sunday. SLC rounded out the top 5 on Monday as well with double digit cancellation and delays.
“AA at CLT and DFW are regularly in worse operational messes than even DL in ATL.
If you want to get to the root issue for operational issues, then get to the hubs themselves.
ATL is DL's Achilles heel but it is also its greatest asset and what every other airline wishes they had. AA has built 2 superhubs in facilities that were never decided to be that large as hubs.”
-Misleading context. Given AA has 2 super hubs, they were the most exposed to an operational meltdown from the IT outage yet still outperformed DL recovery by a long shot. AAs cancellation rate never exceeded 2% since Saturday. DL had double digit cancellations rates since Friday and only today did it dip below 30% cancellation. DLs cancellation rate today (Tuesday, day 5) is still higher than AA on the first day of the outage (Friday).
UA has the most balanced hubs but they pushed EWR too hard, found its absolute limits, and DL is 18% larger than UA in NYC because of it.
-False. Excluding branded codeshare partners, UA exceeds DL in NYC (JFK, LGA, and EWR) by passengers, flights, ASMs, and likely several other metrics.
For April 2024:
Passengers
UA 1.300M
DL 1.014M
Flights
UA 10.5K
DL 6.7K
ASM
UA 2.850M
DL 2.156M
In fact, we can exclude LGA from UA and yet United would still be larger at just EWR than DL at 3 NYC airports combined.
“The only bright spot for UA is ORD thanks to the runway redesign years ago. AA wisely is keeping a small presence; UA will pay the price to hub in a city and state that is increasingly failing economically.“
-Subjective. Chicago is third only to LA and NYC by GDP. Higher GDP than Detroit, Minneapolis, and Salt Lake City combined. UA in ORD is larger than DL in DTW, MSP, SLC, JFK/LGA, SEA, BOS, or LAX. AA in ORD and WN in MDW is also larger than many of DLs hubs.
You can't argue anything against ATL, A350-1000, or cookie dough.
Tim Dunn and Joe Biden debate, that would be fun.
Tim is living proof of why the term isn't just "savant", it's actually "idiot savant", because savant or not, he certainly has the other part down pat.
says the anonymous airline employee that acts like they speak for anyone other than themselves.
You need only look at the percentage of posts on sites that actually don't allow fraudulent user names and moderate content to see that the percentage of posts the real Tim Dunn posts is far lower.
If Ben were half intelligent, he should see it too.
Which sites require registered users, Tim?
vFTW does not
live and Let’s Fly does not
Tpg doesn’t allow comments
Ironically, you’re banned, IP address and all, from the primary granddaddy site that requires registration, airliners.net.
Ben and OMAAT is actually one of the only major aviation sites that allows registered users to allow other users to register as a means of identifying the same person again and again, in suppose.
You’ve...
Which sites require registered users, Tim?
vFTW does not
live and Let’s Fly does not
Tpg doesn’t allow comments
Ironically, you’re banned, IP address and all, from the primary granddaddy site that requires registration, airliners.net.
Ben and OMAAT is actually one of the only major aviation sites that allows registered users to allow other users to register as a means of identifying the same person again and again, in suppose.
You’ve been unhinged on this topic and it’s quite fun watching others prove your inaccuracies but this may even be next level.
You’re criticizing this website and Ben which is actually one of the few that allows registered user comments?
He was banned from airliners.net? Hahahahaha
He should be banned from here as well.
DL in ATL works well several hundred days per year.
It struggles for less than 30 days.
AA at CLT and DFW are regularly in worse operational messes than even DL in ATL.
I have been through DL hubs other than ATL this week and they are working pretty well.
If you want to get to the root issue for operational issues, then get to the hubs themselves.
ATL is DL's Achilles heel...
DL in ATL works well several hundred days per year.
It struggles for less than 30 days.
AA at CLT and DFW are regularly in worse operational messes than even DL in ATL.
I have been through DL hubs other than ATL this week and they are working pretty well.
If you want to get to the root issue for operational issues, then get to the hubs themselves.
ATL is DL's Achilles heel but it is also its greatest asset and what every other airline wishes they had.
AA has built 2 superhubs in facilities that were never decided to be that large as hubs.
UA has the most balanced hubs but they pushed EWR too hard, found its absolute limits, and DL is 18% larger than UA in NYC because of it.
DEN used to be a pretty reliable airport but between UA and WN, DEN's on-time has fallen dramatically.
The only bright spot for UA is ORD thanks to the runway redesign years ago. But ORD is now set to become the most expensive operate in the US for AA and UA. AA wisely is keeping a small presence; UA will pay the price to hub in a city and state that is increasingly failing economically.
No airline has it all but it is precisely because DL has lived through previous operational meltdowns that they will do it again.
DL's operation looks the best it has in the past 4 days. Their recovery is well underway.
Failing economically? My friend just made partner at Kirkland in Chicago.
The City of Chicago and the State of Illinois don't make anyone a partner.
There are always people that figure out how to succeed in the midst of failing situations.
ORD will be the most expensive airport in the country for airlines. UA will bear the lion's share of the cost.
Every hub has its problems but ATL works overall more than any other hub far more often.
DFW and CLT are pushed well...
The City of Chicago and the State of Illinois don't make anyone a partner.
There are always people that figure out how to succeed in the midst of failing situations.
ORD will be the most expensive airport in the country for airlines. UA will bear the lion's share of the cost.
Every hub has its problems but ATL works overall more than any other hub far more often.
DFW and CLT are pushed well beyond their limits.
And DL has cancelled just 16 flights for tomorrow, less than half of what AA has cancelled all over.
I know it will disappoint a whole lot of people but DL's 2024 meltdown could be history.
Now Ben will see how many page clicks he can get for whatever its 7/22 announcement was supposed to be.
We Chicagoans do it our way, Timbo. We don't want to be Atlanta or Minneapolis or, Dog help us, Detroit. And we certainly don't want you here.
@Tim Dunn-You must have been smoking something if you were in MSP this past Saturday or Sunday. The DL areas and concourses were complete CF's. I was there all day Sat. and Most of Sun. My favorite part was the DL gate agent re-booking me onto a flight Sun. eve. that showed availability in his system, while simultaneously the web app showing the flight had already been cancelled. Great DL staff, lousy IT. United got...
@Tim Dunn-You must have been smoking something if you were in MSP this past Saturday or Sunday. The DL areas and concourses were complete CF's. I was there all day Sat. and Most of Sun. My favorite part was the DL gate agent re-booking me onto a flight Sun. eve. that showed availability in his system, while simultaneously the web app showing the flight had already been cancelled. Great DL staff, lousy IT. United got me home on-time Sun. eve. Delta couldn't. That is really all that mattered to me.
Reading news and web-sites today...I will challenge your "their recovery is well underway" comment. They are not anywhere close to being recovered. I hope Ed enjoyed being taken to the woodshed by Pete.
You’ve been through several DL hubs this week and they were fine?
Uh huh. Sure.
I saw firsthand that Denver, LAX, and SFO were all Delta madhouses this week. The press has photos of huge lines in MSP, DTW, and other cities around the system.
But you say they’re fine?
What routes did you take? Were you on any canceled flights.
Let me guess. All of your flights were on time too? Everything in the news is exaggerated?
UA is taking advantage of NYC slot waivers but DL isn’t? lol
DL drew down their NYC schedule and carries 1,000,000 fewer passengers each month, compared to UA.
DL has a lot more RJ flights but looks like passengers prefer United. I guess that’s why they don’t even fly to Japan, one of the largest markets from NYC, and they’re smaller than United to TLV, even with a partner in Israel.
I’m sure...
UA is taking advantage of NYC slot waivers but DL isn’t? lol
DL drew down their NYC schedule and carries 1,000,000 fewer passengers each month, compared to UA.
DL has a lot more RJ flights but looks like passengers prefer United. I guess that’s why they don’t even fly to Japan, one of the largest markets from NYC, and they’re smaller than United to TLV, even with a partner in Israel.
I’m sure these last few days drove even more passengers to United. I wonder how many more NYC passengers United will carry this month.
Dude, your delta obsession is really weird.
Ed Bastian should have read this quote before commenting on Q2 results:
/.... Praise not the day until evening has come, a woman until she is burnt, a sword until it is tried, a maiden until she is married, ice until it has been crossed, beer until it has been drunk/.../
It's easy to shine when everything runs smoothly...
It is only when that thingy hits the fan, and we see how...
Ed Bastian should have read this quote before commenting on Q2 results:
/.... Praise not the day until evening has come, a woman until she is burnt, a sword until it is tried, a maiden until she is married, ice until it has been crossed, beer until it has been drunk/.../
It's easy to shine when everything runs smoothly...
It is only when that thingy hits the fan, and we see how the company reacts to a specific shock, that one may get a better idea about its overall strength, or lack of thereof
@Everyone, please have some compassion for Tim.
He's poured all his life savings into Delta and he's seeing it all evaporate before his eyes. You would be mentally unstable and go on unhinged rants on the internet if that was you.
DAL is down almost 12% in the last month and will continue flopping like their operational performance.
Well since Delta isn't refunding prepaid even tickets and such that its flight cancelations or delays make you miss, maybe that's why Ed and his fiance are headed to Paris tonight? I mean, the head of corp comms is already over there for the Olympics, so maybe him and Ed being in the same country will help get some messaging out?
Delta Dunn.
Like Baghdad Bob, but reporting from Concourse E.
What happened to you Delta? You used to be good.
The only thing Delta is good at is gaslighting their fanboys into thinking they're some kind of premium experience.
This is why Delta is the most profitable airline in the world.
Some here obsess with this metric, but let’s face it, this is good for shareholders - not the passengers.
Passenger bill of rights!!
@Ben Would be great if you did a comparison on what compensation Delta offered from its June/July 2022 meltdown. That should be a pretty good guide on what paxs should expect. Crazy that a "premium" airline has another meltdown only 24 months later. I am guessing based on Southwest's and Delta's experience, crew scheduling software, airlines are going to have to make a greater investment to make it more resilient with better backup technology.
The SkyPesos thing is what gets me. They clearly have the money — look at their financial results — and the responsibility to refund/compensate in this situation. Yet Delta is acting like some kind of Spirit or Air India. There’s no way you can see them as ‘premium’ with this huge failure. Southwest already handled their meltdown terribly but Delta is bringing the passenger experience to a new low
Yes, the airline is likely not going to be able to process all the refunds now; the main point is to guarantee that they will come so passengers can act with confidence. Delta is far from that
gosh I really want to see DL succeed, which is a large part of why I try to provide constructive criticism when warranted -- I hate to say it, but this seems really inexcusable, and profoundly short-sighted in ways that dial up current management's strategy to 11.
just a very difficult time for those of us who are fans of the airline.
Long time reader. I love the comments. More how people get that internet righteousness.
We all just eating cereal in our underwear.
The blog is fine too.
Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg should share some blame. He should push for emergency cabotage to help. Make Westjet and Air Canada able to fly people through their hub. Every little addition helps. So someone flying BOS-ATL-PHX might be able to fly through Toronto on AC.
That's up to DL to figure out their interline reprotections, if they chose to, and that's unclear. US citizens can already transfer between US cities via Canada, though it involves the headache of passport/customs clearance...just not a logical comment.
Hey, it worked in Australia in 1989! They allowed cabotage when the government said airline pilots should be treated like any other employee so the union said "Fine! We only work 9-5!" and went home for dinner.
Pete can push for whatever he wants, but Congress is the one who'd have to permit cabotage, not the DOT, and good luck getting Congress to do much of anything.
PDX to LAX yesterday morning, flight was canceled 1.5hrs after multiple slight delays. We had a plane + flight attendants but was told over the loudspeaker “Delta doesn’t know where our pilots are.” Got rebooked on an AS flight to BUR, but only after showing the very friendly and clearly stressed lounge agent that there were open seats and nicely advocating for it, otherwise would have been on a Delta flight this evening which may...
PDX to LAX yesterday morning, flight was canceled 1.5hrs after multiple slight delays. We had a plane + flight attendants but was told over the loudspeaker “Delta doesn’t know where our pilots are.” Got rebooked on an AS flight to BUR, but only after showing the very friendly and clearly stressed lounge agent that there were open seats and nicely advocating for it, otherwise would have been on a Delta flight this evening which may or may not have left. Downgraded from F to E but at least I made it yesterday. Spent an extra 6 hours at the airport. Worst part was trying to find my bag in the sea of thousands of stranded bags by baggage claim, having an airtag in it truly saved me! Hoping my DL return on Friday happens...
Ben, I've never heard you talk about FIM's on here before.
If there is an agreement, an agent can FIM a ticket on to another carrier.
I do not know about others, but my friend's parents were given 3 nights of hotel, with meal vouchers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner each day. Since their replacement DL flight connection was canceled, they were FIM'd on to Westjet.
Like all things, some people will get taken care...
Ben, I've never heard you talk about FIM's on here before.
If there is an agreement, an agent can FIM a ticket on to another carrier.
I do not know about others, but my friend's parents were given 3 nights of hotel, with meal vouchers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner each day. Since their replacement DL flight connection was canceled, they were FIM'd on to Westjet.
Like all things, some people will get taken care of and some will not. I'm not a DL fan at all, but my feeling is they are probably so overrun and worn out, they are trying to do the reimbursements instead of upfront comps...
IF you know your rights and what to ask for, it can go a long way. You do not have to accept re-accommodation on your original carrier if not to your liking.
Good luck to everyone stranded.
Thank you
Of course there is no memo for DL agents to not give passengers to other carriers but DL is STILL interline protecting as it always has
And anyone that thinks that every passenger in UA or WN’s meltdowns that was 6 hours delayed got a ticket on other airlines is beyond naive.
Thank you for confirming that Ben’s article is wrong
If there is a memo saying not to protect on other airlines it should be easy to find and post
Tim, you must realize that you are trying to convince people who have an ax to grind. And, thus, will never admit when you are correct on an issue. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this or any other of your comments. I'm simply observing the dynamics.
oh. there are plenty of axes people are not only grinding but swinging.
rationality or even truth is far from the goal for most of the people that participate in those forums - or even Ben - and he is hardly the only internet travel writer that resorts to hyperbole and mistruth in order to generate controversy - and ultimately page clicks.
So, why participate? The back and forth seems to serve no purpose other than precipitating or exacerbating a fight . . . and adding to the clicks. Just let it go.
What axe?
I'm here for the cookie dough.
I tried to mention FIMs before, but got trashed by a few comments...uh, under the varied airline departments I looked after also included interline agreements, so I am aware about these things. It might be true, however, that in the 12 years since I left the industry they don't have FIMs anymore?
FIMS are not widely used anymore as the industry has moved to a paperless environment. Most airlines can rebook and electronically re-issue / endorse a ticket over to an interline partner, which is essentially the replacement to FIMS.
@LAXLonghorn: They do have FIM agreements. It's sort of electronic now for the most part but it's a little more involved than a customer buying a ticket. In a mass IROP situation like this, inventory dries up pretty quickly and most of the airlines that do have bilateral "FIM" agreements, where they can electronically grab inventory from another carrier, have a sort of kill switch anyway to drop the authorized on flights down to current...
@LAXLonghorn: They do have FIM agreements. It's sort of electronic now for the most part but it's a little more involved than a customer buying a ticket. In a mass IROP situation like this, inventory dries up pretty quickly and most of the airlines that do have bilateral "FIM" agreements, where they can electronically grab inventory from another carrier, have a sort of kill switch anyway to drop the authorized on flights down to current booking level or lower the AU to the capacity. Pre-US Airways AA used to be really nasty about mass dumping eFIMs on other airlines in a hurry before those airlines could either zero things out or thin their own operations. A carrier where I worked would get dumped on by AA in the winter... they'd cancel everything out of our hub, dump everyone on us, and then we had issues when contaminated runways or alternate requirements started making us take weight restrictions. So the second weather turned bad, we'd lock down same day inventory to airport direct sales or our website only.
Reality is with the chaos occurring, the general customer population is buying up all of the inventory before DL could think about FIM within the next few hours, and those airlines probably aren't overselling now since those buying tickets are already at the airport in most likelihood.
We all saw the title, we all pressed on it and we all know why
I am EP in AA. I Had a mechanical issue yesterday. I was going BWI-CLT-MIA-MDE. AT 3:49pm. I took Amtrak PHL to BWI. Flight from CLT inbound was delayed, making it so that I would be stuck in Charlotte until Wed. American put me up at a hotel, first class at 6:15am today. Arrived MIA at 8:42. They placed me on Avianca at 1:15pm to Medellin. While I was flying BWI to MIA I saw...
I am EP in AA. I Had a mechanical issue yesterday. I was going BWI-CLT-MIA-MDE. AT 3:49pm. I took Amtrak PHL to BWI. Flight from CLT inbound was delayed, making it so that I would be stuck in Charlotte until Wed. American put me up at a hotel, first class at 6:15am today. Arrived MIA at 8:42. They placed me on Avianca at 1:15pm to Medellin. While I was flying BWI to MIA I saw that there were now seats on the 10:07am. I landed and called the EP line. Over 1 hour hold time. I went to the Admirals club. They said that because I was checked in with Avianca that they could not put me on the 10:07am AA metal flight. I headed over to J terminal at Avianca. The gate agent said that I didn’t have a confirmed ticket on Avianca. I showed her my American status and my return ticket to New York at midnight tomorrow and she made an exception. I even sat in the Emergency Exit row window. All in all not the worst experience and American didn't do bad by me
Ben, are you ever going to offer readers the ability to mute or ignore certain commenters?
Are you kidding?
Every comment section is a sea of fraud users
Ben NEEDS THE volume of comments more than he cares about a pleasant internet experience for his readers
@Tim Dunn, if you and I agree on one thing, it's that Ben has mastered engagement-baiting. Though it isn't really that hard since some people here have seemingly no restraint.
And you never fail to deliver for him.
PSA has cancelled a higher percentage of flights than DL today.
AA has issued a ground stop for its own flights to CLT.
AA’s on time is as bad as DL’s and deteriorating by the minute.
But this is just AA’s normal operation so it’s ok and no one notices
And of the course AA customers are never mistreated
AA and Eagle combined A14 is 72.5%, even with the issues in CLT.
DL and Connection combined A14 is 53.3%.
Nice try.
I'm not talking about Eagle. I am talking about PSA and I am talking about AA mainline.
AA's on-time in CLT is 45% delayed. DL's in ATL is 52% delayed.
PSA has cancelled a higher percentage of its flights today than DL.
Feel free to let us know who is having the meltdown - but it would surely seem like AA is over its skis in CLT, its 2nd largest hub and also the primary competitive hub to ATL.
Weather delays are not the same as a self made software problem. Other carriers had originally the same problem as Delta... But recovered faster. That is Delta's problem.
Weather in Charlotte leads to lots of delays - nobody can change the weather. PSAs most flying is in Charlotte.... Hence more cancelations.
The poster above mentioned that it's also factual wrong. I don't know, but Eagle usually includes Envoy, PSA and Piedmont.
It's...
Weather delays are not the same as a self made software problem. Other carriers had originally the same problem as Delta... But recovered faster. That is Delta's problem.
Weather in Charlotte leads to lots of delays - nobody can change the weather. PSAs most flying is in Charlotte.... Hence more cancelations.
The poster above mentioned that it's also factual wrong. I don't know, but Eagle usually includes Envoy, PSA and Piedmont.
It's also a strange idea to mention that somebody is supposedly worse and that makes Delta better? Not sure about that argument...but once again: You have a financial stake in Delta? So you try to make them look better than they are....
Tim, in order to verify your logical state-of-mind...or not...can you clarify: On time versus cancelled flights. What are you referring to? Sincerely. If DL cancelled lots more flights than AA, does it matter if DL's remaining operation had a comparable on-time ratio...maybe AA had equal or more delayed flights than DL, but if far less cancelled flight than DL? What exactly are you comparing? I'm open to reading a logical post with the full, and...
Tim, in order to verify your logical state-of-mind...or not...can you clarify: On time versus cancelled flights. What are you referring to? Sincerely. If DL cancelled lots more flights than AA, does it matter if DL's remaining operation had a comparable on-time ratio...maybe AA had equal or more delayed flights than DL, but if far less cancelled flight than DL? What exactly are you comparing? I'm open to reading a logical post with the full, and not just the convenient data. If you can?
when a hub is operating above 30% late, there are alot of people misconnecting.
It is just pure fact. In a hub like CLT and other AA hubs which are built on very short connections, there are tens of thousands of passengers that have missed flights.
AA REGULARLY issues ground stops (or has the FAA do it) for CLT for AA only flights.
DL in ATL works well several hundred days per year.
when a hub is operating above 30% late, there are alot of people misconnecting.
It is just pure fact. In a hub like CLT and other AA hubs which are built on very short connections, there are tens of thousands of passengers that have missed flights.
AA REGULARLY issues ground stops (or has the FAA do it) for CLT for AA only flights.
DL in ATL works well several hundred days per year.
It struggles for less than 30 days.
AA at CLT and DFW are regularly in worse operational messes than even DL in ATL.
I have been through DL hubs other than ATL this week and they are working pretty well.
If you want to get to the root issue for operational issues, then get to the hubs themselves.
ATL is DL's Achilles heel but it is also its greatest asset and what every other airline wishes they had.
AA has built 2 superhubs in facilities that were never decided to be that large as hubs.
UA has the most balanced hubs but they pushed EWR too hard, found its absolute limits, and DL is 18% larger than UA in NYC because of it.
DEN used to be a pretty reliable airport but between UA and WN, DEN's on-time has fallen dramatically.
The only bright spot for UA is ORD thanks to the runway redesign years ago. But ORD is now set to become the most expensive operate in the US for AA and UA. AA wisely is keeping a small presence; UA will pay the price to hub in a city and state that is increasingly failing economically.
No airline has it all but it is precisely because DL has lived through previous operational meltdowns that they will do it again.
DL's operation looks the best it has in the past 4 days.
Hmmm.
DFW never designed as a super hub?
DFW is 27 sq miles of land space. ATL is 7.3 sq miles of land space. (Then you have DEN at 53 sq miles of land space)
DFW 7 runways. ATL 5 runways.
CLT is a different matter. But AA's strategy is to flank DL at ATL by the combined DFW/CLT network operations, as they told me.
I don't evaluate UA as much, other than a...
Hmmm.
DFW never designed as a super hub?
DFW is 27 sq miles of land space. ATL is 7.3 sq miles of land space. (Then you have DEN at 53 sq miles of land space)
DFW 7 runways. ATL 5 runways.
CLT is a different matter. But AA's strategy is to flank DL at ATL by the combined DFW/CLT network operations, as they told me.
I don't evaluate UA as much, other than a hilarious meeting with their network planning team, but that was before Kirby...so I'll consider those meetings no longer relevant.
Speaking of relevant...are you? So many silly comments day-by-day...
Nobody will care in a week. People will keep buying tickets. Due duopoly does not have to change because nobody demands any changes. They keep buying tickets and let the big 3 off with this crap. It will never change..
"duopoly"
"big 3"
I don't think you understand what a duopoly is.
I agree. If you live in a UA, AA, DAL or SWA hub, you are going to fly that airline. Convenience will outweigh a lot. No one with status at Delta is going to want to come to AA, especially if they live in a Delta hub.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your assertions, let's not pretend that Delta actually gives a s#!t about passengers. If they did, Bastion would have resigned effective next month, with the delay only so he and other upper management could work in the trenches with employees trying to help customers and arrange proper compensation for customers before he left in disgrace.
Here, let me pay you in my own cryptocurrency -- one that features high levels of inflation!
Tim Dunn in this thread (and every other DL threads): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBakpPtv2Q
Delta is the best at refusing refunds, period!
They should not refund customers because Delta needs money to build its Atlanta hub and buy A350-1000. Customers should be thankful for Delta.
Strange situation for my 80 year old mother yesterday. Hey flight was delayed but only by an hour. They boarded and left the gate. After 1.5 hours taxiing they had to return to the gate since they were now short on fuel. Watching the flight I had assumed the crew timed out or something but that wasn't the case at all. Flight ended up nearly 6 hours delayed. My mother flies a lot for an...
Strange situation for my 80 year old mother yesterday. Hey flight was delayed but only by an hour. They boarded and left the gate. After 1.5 hours taxiing they had to return to the gate since they were now short on fuel. Watching the flight I had assumed the crew timed out or something but that wasn't the case at all. Flight ended up nearly 6 hours delayed. My mother flies a lot for an 80 year old, shoot, she's Silver Medallion. Nothing at all offered to her for this mess, and of course they're blaming it on weather (though the next flight between her City pair departed and arrived on time while she sat on the tarmac). Delta seems quite a mess atm...
Come save your ghetto AF airline Timmy! Looks like ED is hiding out
Even Frontier don't abuse passengers like Delta.
Yeah but United canceled flights to TLV earlier this year due to geopolitical problems and also because of the MAX issues.
Yes, the cancellations were done days (at least) in advance, everyone was rebooked before arriving at the airport, and nobody was stranded, but of course it’s exactly the same thing as Delta cancelling over 5,000 flights in a few days.
Disregard the global news coverage and videos of thousands of stranded people....
Yeah but United canceled flights to TLV earlier this year due to geopolitical problems and also because of the MAX issues.
Yes, the cancellations were done days (at least) in advance, everyone was rebooked before arriving at the airport, and nobody was stranded, but of course it’s exactly the same thing as Delta cancelling over 5,000 flights in a few days.
Disregard the global news coverage and videos of thousands of stranded people.
How can you not believe me?! How can you all be so gullible?!
Ben made up this entire story for clicks!
Ed should resign immediately like Kimberly Cheatle. Incompetent leaders bring down the whole organization.
Delta needs a new CEO from a real airline like Alaska or American.
What an enduring stain on Delta's reputation with high value business travelers.
Nickel and diming is not what a premium airline would do. Oh wait, they are the 'premium' carrier that charges for drinks in its 'premium' Delta ONE lounge.
Throwing token SkyPesos at it only further erodes the value perception of that currency when fliers think through what that compensation means vs actual cash out of their and their companies' pockets.
Just as...
What an enduring stain on Delta's reputation with high value business travelers.
Nickel and diming is not what a premium airline would do. Oh wait, they are the 'premium' carrier that charges for drinks in its 'premium' Delta ONE lounge.
Throwing token SkyPesos at it only further erodes the value perception of that currency when fliers think through what that compensation means vs actual cash out of their and their companies' pockets.
Just as high value fliers make back half of the year status decisions.
yeah, this isn't the sort of thing that comes out in the wash, that's for sure.
It is standard operating procedure. My experience from the Southwest Christmas meltdown is they reimbursed reasonable expenses (hotels, meals, rental cars....) and gave everyone 20000 rapid reward points for their trouble and try to get them back on the planes. In a few months, all was forgotten.
Why isn't Delta rebooking people on other airlines? If the flight is delayed more than 8 hours I think - they have to book you elsewhere.
I have been rebooked by AA on UA in the past.
Airlines in the US aren't required to book passengers on other airlines during irregular operations.
Not required to, but it's in their best interest to get the backlogs cleared. Didn't the big 3 re-instate interline agreements a number of years back, after getting suck in irops holes like this?
I wouldnt be surprised if Delta wasn't trying that. But it is also peak summer season with load factors +90% industry wide right now and airlines need seats on their own metal with storm delays in Texas, Florida, and the Northeast. There isn't a glut of idle inventory sitting around.
Do we consider this 1. "mechanical" or 2. "weather like - out of there control". Maybe 2 at first, but at this point this is more mechanical - Delta's Fault.
I think airlines are required to rebook you on another airline when there is mechanical if they can't get you to destination 8 hours later.
Their partner WestJet stranded me in Calgary (ticket issued on Delta stock with a Delta flight number), and suggested I sleep in the airport. I had to pay over $700 for a Flair flight to get out of there, and even though they told me over the phone I could file for reimbursement, they're now refusing to reimburse me. Super premium, Delta. Best airline ever.
Who cares?! Delta made money on their flights to Cancun in 2014.
If they are flying ex U.K.EU they legally have to reimburse alternative costs and rebook other airlines outside the SkyTeam.
You can also claim damages under the Montreal convention for international flights.
So for example, if they cancelled a Tokyo Los Angeles and you bought a new ticket on ANA they should refund any fare difference if in the same cabin.
I’ve been in ATL telling the stranded pax to get over it, since other airlines will delay them when a hurricane hits Texas.
YOU REALLY ARE DEPLORABLE!
As are all frauds
If an airline cancels a flight, especially for non-weather related circumstances, they should be obligated to get you there as soon as reasonably possible, whether it is on their own metal or someone else's. This just seems like such a common sense rule to no penalize travelers who get a refund for a flight they booked months ago only to be told to pay walk-up prices because of no fault their own.
I wonder how long Delta will be reliving this or having to talk through it into the future.
Definitely during the Q3 earnings call. Maybe in August or September when they revise earnings guidance down? Probably in a week or two when Secretary Pete, senators, and others come down on them, threatening fines and other actions, all while refusing to let this die in the news.
My wife was supposed to fly DTW-AMS-BOM, today at 6AM, she got notification, that her DTW-AMS flight was cancelled due to "mechanical" issue. She was rebooked on Thursday DTW-JFK-AMS-BOM flight. When we tried to change that, didn't even showed us another DTW-AMS flight. So we tried to cancel and ask for refund. Had to click on "refund to original form" at least 3 times before it allowed us to. The website was forcing us to...
My wife was supposed to fly DTW-AMS-BOM, today at 6AM, she got notification, that her DTW-AMS flight was cancelled due to "mechanical" issue. She was rebooked on Thursday DTW-JFK-AMS-BOM flight. When we tried to change that, didn't even showed us another DTW-AMS flight. So we tried to cancel and ask for refund. Had to click on "refund to original form" at least 3 times before it allowed us to. The website was forcing us to take ecredit instead of the refund.
Later on, she gets an email from Delta offering 6000 skypesos for "our trouble" and a link to request reimbursements for expenses related to the flight. To add to that, couple of hrs back, the 2nd DTW-AMS flight appeared on their schedule. Making her drive to ORD, rental car, overnight stay and the whole stress completely pointless.
Until, now I have been very happy with Delta. Even though we are hub bound, I still haven't had any complains. But this is an absolute meltdown from them. They should be reimbursing us for the stress, rental car for the drive to Chicago, Toll, Hotel stay, food, and the time. Premium airline my foot.
Oh, and forgot to mention - When I was finally able to request refund, it wasn't eligible for automated processing. It had to be reviewed by someone before it'll be approved along with the amount. And it can take them 7 days to review.
Anyone that still thinks Delta is a premium airline, they don't know what premium means.
And the in-app notifications are still reminding her about her 6:35pm flight to AMS.
I'm sure it would be way too much to ask for a memo to back up your claims, Ben.
Surely Jon could get his hand on one of those memos if they existed.
Given that DL routinely swaps tickets with other airlines and vice versa, are we seriously supposed to believe that they have not told their employees not to do it?
DL does know what their DOT obligations are, Ben.
If someone wants...
I'm sure it would be way too much to ask for a memo to back up your claims, Ben.
Surely Jon could get his hand on one of those memos if they existed.
Given that DL routinely swaps tickets with other airlines and vice versa, are we seriously supposed to believe that they have not told their employees not to do it?
DL does know what their DOT obligations are, Ben.
If someone wants their tickets refunded, then they are finished with Delta.
And, no, WN did NOT hand out amenities for multiple days of its meltdown - there are well-documented stories and that is precisely what the DOT went over then for. The inability you have to do a basic google search to find those articles is really quite mind-numbing.
Who are you like seriously gurl?? What kind of person sits all day waiting for delta posts here to show up just to obnoxiously defend every single move they make? Ocd over delta like truly
Delta is never in the wrong!!!!
Sick truly sick...
@Adam you must be new here lol And it isn't just this site he trolls for posts about Delta, apparently.
I've never seen you back up any of your claims. So why should Ben have to back up his?
I cite my sources plenty.
Again, if DL is actually denying services it usually gives, there has to be a memo somewhere to prove it.
DL can't just whisper in the ears of 10,000 airport and res agents
I have a feeling that a few people are being told that there are no seats on other airlines and turn that into "we won't book you on another carrier."
How long have you been alive and still be so gullible?
What kind of company relies on “whispering in the ears” of employees to communicate policies.
It’s called an urgent bulletin. Even one that displays on your screen as you sign into your computer.
“Please treat all delays and cancellations as “controllable”. Provide hotel and meal vouchers”
It’s very easy. Agent decisions like that are a yes or a no. Advise them the answer should be “yes”.
@ Tim Dunn -- First I have a question for you. Do you agree that refunding tickets on other airlines is the right thing to do in these circumstances, like Southwest did? Bonus points if you can address the question directly, and not reference the A350-1000 being amazing, or how profitable Atlanta is as a hub.
yes, Delta and every other airline should be refunding tickets if they can't get you where you need to go in the time you need. If you choose a refund, they have ended their obligations to you.
If they have ticket agreements with airlines that have seats and you can actually talk to an agent - res or airport - they should book you on another airline. There is no way DL can move...
yes, Delta and every other airline should be refunding tickets if they can't get you where you need to go in the time you need. If you choose a refund, they have ended their obligations to you.
If they have ticket agreements with airlines that have seats and you can actually talk to an agent - res or airport - they should book you on another airline. There is no way DL can move this backlog in a reasonable time.
You as a passenger can wait for them to get you there and they have to take care of you -EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR OWN AMENITIES and then get reimbursed which is exactly what happened to many WN passengers.
The notion that DL or any airline can pop up 150,000 vouchers per day in the middle of a meltdown including to passengers for whom they have little or no contact info is beyond fanciful.
But my point still remains, if DL is not doing what it normally does, there has to be a memo proving it and you should have no problem finding it and displaying it in authenticity if it exists.
@ Tim Dunn -- Southwest reimbursed passengers for tickets booked on other airlines when Southwest couldn't get them to their destination in a timely manner, no matter how expensive they were.
My question wasn't whether Delta should refund tickets when it doesn't operate a flight. Of course it should, it legally has to.
So do you think Delta should refund passengers (in cash, after the fact, through a reimbursement form) when they booked tickets on...
@ Tim Dunn -- Southwest reimbursed passengers for tickets booked on other airlines when Southwest couldn't get them to their destination in a timely manner, no matter how expensive they were.
My question wasn't whether Delta should refund tickets when it doesn't operate a flight. Of course it should, it legally has to.
So do you think Delta should refund passengers (in cash, after the fact, through a reimbursement form) when they booked tickets on other airlines, like Southwest did?
@Ben - you do know that you’ve lost regular readers because of Tim Dunn? I used to read daily. Now it is barely weekly. Tim is a bore. You’d be better off without him. More readers would come back.
@Tim is So Done
Agree. Just ban this guy already. It’s getting extremely stale.
You mean the frauds? Of course they are tiresome
Not one heart on your comments. Loser.
My apologies for my customer.
If Delta can’t interline the ticket then the passenger can ask for a refund.
Tim, If you think people aren't going to notice you ignoring direct questions to you, you are beyond naive.
@Tim Dunn, we know passengers can (maybe) interline, get a booking at a later time/date, or ask for refund. That's all normal irrops stuff.
Ben asked you whether you thought Delta should additionally step up for their stranded passengers, via reimbursing fares on other airlines, in the way that Southwest did when they couldn't get rebook people for days and days on end due to failure of systems and process.
You didn't answer directly, but...
@Tim Dunn, we know passengers can (maybe) interline, get a booking at a later time/date, or ask for refund. That's all normal irrops stuff.
Ben asked you whether you thought Delta should additionally step up for their stranded passengers, via reimbursing fares on other airlines, in the way that Southwest did when they couldn't get rebook people for days and days on end due to failure of systems and process.
You didn't answer directly, but via omission, your reiteration of what we all know sounds as though you are saying, no, Delta should not be rising to Southwest's level by responding to this extreme situation via passenger reimbursement for flights booked on other airlines.
Is that what you're saying? If not, then what's your answer to Ben? And if that is what you're saying, fine, that's a position. What are your reasons for it?
I don’t even mean this as an insult, but can you imagine how fascinating a psychologist would find Tim Dunn?
The complete lack of self-awareness, the double standards he applies to others but not himself, the deflection, the constant distortion of information to hypocritically suit his needs.
All in the name of supporting a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Good lord, give Timmy a gd memo……someone
Well Tim, I was in the DR for a wedding with a few friends. I was on AA PUJ to JFK then on to GMP via HND. No problems as I’m sitting in the JAL First Lounge. My friends on DL PUJ to JFK I did the talking to the agents who yes contracted also called delta to ask a few questions for me. The refused an interline on AA or UA direct or even...
Well Tim, I was in the DR for a wedding with a few friends. I was on AA PUJ to JFK then on to GMP via HND. No problems as I’m sitting in the JAL First Lounge. My friends on DL PUJ to JFK I did the talking to the agents who yes contracted also called delta to ask a few questions for me. The refused an interline on AA or UA direct or even through IAD/MIA/IAH even though tickets were still being sold. They just boarded their flight at 215 today after being stuck for 3+ days. So yeah first hand experience on a refusal of interlining. But let’s put this into perspective they were going to be home Sunday around 6PM. I left Monday and made it home to swap suitcases then flew all the way to Asia before they could get off the island. Real premium….
Wow. Just … wow. That’s some real arrogance by DL to refuse to interline.
"deeply value..." NO, you clearly don't. Words clearly not supported by actions. Re-evaluating keeping my Delta Amex card going forward. I viewed DL as a premium travel proposition but not anymore.
Delta is NOT a premium airline, so this is expected. Never fly Delta again, never.
AMEN
Sun Country is my go to airline from PHX to MSP. Netter people and newer planes
Ben just throwing shade at Timmy now, I love it
I'm not surprised lol, It's so obvious how the big three in the US prioritize profits over any little thing that will make the customers life's better because many of these customers a lot of the times don't have other choices. They know this and abuse it, from how they are treating employees to their products up to the customer. Greedy ass companies what can you do about it really other than leave to another one if you have the choice.
I would estimate over 500,000 people have been impacted. I'm not sure they could have "made it right" to that many people in 72 hours or less, while battling the ongoing issues. Hard to pass judgement this early.
thank you.
and the amnesia about how well WN did is beyond the pale.
there are scores of stories that ARE STILL ACCESSIBLE of airport conditions that were far worse than any I have heard from DL.
DL's participation in interlining clearly has helped them compared to where WN was at this point.
And DL will be writing lots of refund and expense reimbursement checks. The tab is probably a half billion and climbing
True but the CEO should be out there telling everyone they will be reimbursed for all expenses incurred for this mess including tickets booked with other airlines. They are so profitable they can afford it. The fact that a simple social media post or TV interview hasn't happened yet with that message speaks volumes about the company. Everyone knows it's going to be weeks before they will be reimbursed but as long as it is...
True but the CEO should be out there telling everyone they will be reimbursed for all expenses incurred for this mess including tickets booked with other airlines. They are so profitable they can afford it. The fact that a simple social media post or TV interview hasn't happened yet with that message speaks volumes about the company. Everyone knows it's going to be weeks before they will be reimbursed but as long as it is done people will not feel completely hosed with the situation. Anything short of that is unacceptable.
Exactly! No one said refund today. Refund when you can but TELL PASSENGERS what the plan is!!
Looks I beat the rush in waiting for he who shall not be named.
In the travel sector, customerses don't really remember what happens when things go as planned. They *do* however remember how IROPs are handled - a positive IROP is better for reputation than things going as planned. A *negative* IROP however is poison, and this is going to weigh on DL for awhile. How long of a while? Until the next airline meltdown, whenever that ends up being.
Here for the comments.
It is gonna be a long day here in the comments…