Among network carriers, long haul markets tend to be dominated by joint venture agreements. With this, airlines are allowed to coordinate fares and schedules, to create as comprehensive of a network as possible. The downside is that these joint ventures are the equivalent of eliminating a competitor, since multiple airlines are essentially merging parts of their business, and acting as one.
Along those lines, there’s an interesting development when it comes to Alaska Airlines’ plans to launch long haul flights…
In this post:
Alaska may join a transpacific joint venture
Alaska Air Group recently acquired Hawaiian Airlines, which has some exciting implications. It’s impressive how fast Alaska is moving with making changes. We know that Alaska plans to launch long haul flights out of Seattle, and the airline is targeting 12 long haul routes by 2030. The first route launches in May 2025, and will be to Tokyo Narita (NRT), using a Hawaiian Airbus A330.
It’s exciting to see Alaska introducing long haul service, though it can be hard to go at it alone. I’ve seen some people suggest that Alaska will hemorrhage money on long haul flights. Personally I don’t view it that way, though it does take time to scale a network.
If you ask me, Alaska’s biggest issue will be the product it offers, at least in the short term. Hawaiian’s A330s just aren’t competitive, given the 2-2-2 layout. We know that Alaska is looking at updating these cabins, but there’s no news yet as to what we’ll see, and when it’ll happen.
There is a noteworthy update when it comes to Alaska’s long haul plans, as there are reportedly discussions taking place for Alaska to join the American and Japan Airlines transpacific joint venture.
It sounds like this isn’t imminent, but rather, is a long term project. This was revealed by Japan Airlines’ Vice President of Route Marketing and Sales. Now, keep in mind that Alaska already has a partnership with American and Japan Airlines, including reciprocal opportunities to earn and redeem points, plus codeshare agreements.
However, from the perspective of airlines, there are huge advantages to belonging to a joint venture, in terms of being able to coordinate fares, schedules, etc. Airlines always prefer to book a passenger on a joint venture partner, rather than just a codeshare or interline partner.
Admittedly joint ventures are also much harder to get regulatory approval for. It’s anyone’s guess if such a deal would be approved by regulators. Personally I think there’s consumer benefit here, but really, regulatory approval all comes down to how things are framed.
The partnership dynamics at play here are interesting
There’s nothing preventing airlines from the same region from belonging to the same joint venture. However, in the United States, we’ve generally seen only one “local” carrier be part of every joint venture. That’s mostly a function of there being three airline alliances and three global US carriers.
The evolving partnership between Alaska and American has been interesting to watch. Keep in mind that initially the plan was for American to launch long haul flights out of Seattle, and for Alaska to provide the regional feed for those flights, as part of a win-win arrangement. However, that strategy collapsed for a variety of reasons, and American gave up on that. Now we’re seeing Alaska launch long haul flights out of Seattle, without any specific support from American.
Obviously Alaska joining the American and Japan Airlines transpacific joint venture would require the support of both airlines. Would American really be onboard with Alaska joining this joint venture?
The obvious argument against it is that it will dilute American’s importance in the transpacific joint venture, and the direct upside from such an agreement can be hard to quantify. At the same time, though, I see merit to it, especially considering competitive dynamics:
- American just isn’t really trying to compete across the Pacific, so competitively, it seems beneficial for American’s partners to at least have more service
- Realistically, it’s in American’s best interest for Alaska to put up a good fight against Delta in Seattle, in terms of weakening Delta’s transpacific presence, and challenging its growing West Coast hub
- American is significantly weaker than United across the Pacific, and Delta’s joint venture with Korean Air is strong
If Alaska could join this joint venture, I could see merit to the airline increasingly adding flights to Japan out of most of its hubs, ranging from Seattle (SEA), to San Francisco (SFO), to Portland (PDX), to Honolulu (HNL).
We’ll see how this plays out. I don’t imagine American is overly enthusiastic about this, since Alaska expanding across the Pacific in some ways reflects American’s own failures. But at the same time, American probably realizes it’s better off with Alaska than without Alaska, and it’s also about competing with Delta and United.
Bottom line
Discussions are reportedly taking place for Alaska to join the transpacific joint venture between American and Japan Airlines. It’s rare to see two US airlines be part of the same long haul joint venture, so this would be pretty significant, if it happens.
This would be hugely beneficial for Alaska, in building up its long haul network out of the Pacific Northwest. I think there’s consumer benefit here, and ultimately I think American is better off with Alaska than without Alaska, given the competitive dynamics.
What do you make of the prospect of Alaska joining the American & Japan Airlines joint venture?
AA presence is imperceptible in the Pacific, as it puts most of its marbles into Latin American/Spanish speaking countries. That said, ANY Alaska Air Pacific relationship is a bonus for AA.
I still prefer JAL or ANA, although the Delta flight from Haneda to Seattle has a good arrival time of being in the morning.
No way. AA would love this because it takes out a competitor in the market. I want to fly on Hawaiian Airlines from Seattle.
I’m going to pull a Tim Dunn and throw out a whole bunch of speculation in this comment and act like I know what I’m talking about….
-I think a few HND slots will open up to AA/AS/HA or UA due to the KE/Asiana/DL JV. I’m excluding any going to DL because they already lead US carriers and provide no connectivity beyond Japan. While not a JV partner, UA loses connectivity/small feed at ICN...
I’m going to pull a Tim Dunn and throw out a whole bunch of speculation in this comment and act like I know what I’m talking about….
-I think a few HND slots will open up to AA/AS/HA or UA due to the KE/Asiana/DL JV. I’m excluding any going to DL because they already lead US carriers and provide no connectivity beyond Japan. While not a JV partner, UA loses connectivity/small feed at ICN with the merger. No US carrier other than DL can now compete at ICN.
-I don’t think it’s a coincidence this rumor comes out on the same day as a JAL 7M8 order.
-AS will use the 787 and eventually take over the SEA-NRT route.
-JAL will add a SEA-HND early arrival into HND that gets all of AS’s evening arrival bank into SEA.
-PDX will get a route to TYO.
-AA will get LAS-HND on a 788 4 times weekly.
-AA possibly adds MIA-HND (nothing to do with article but that’s just Timmy’s usual move)
-PHX to NRT gets added. I know NRT doesn’t have slot controls, but it’s time for AA to Asia with the growth of TSMC & PHX connectivity.
-The JV will get approved as long as AA/AS don’t overlap routes. Alaska won’t step into the LAX, and American won’t add SFO/SEA etc. I don’t see AA being added to any Hawaii routes on the JV though, but I’ve been wrong before. (see, it’s not hard to say that Timmy)
See, I can blindfold myself before throwing 100 pieces of trash at trashcan. A few will go in!
as usual, you are here to provide heat and provide no light.
no HND slots will be added just because AA or AS wants it. Period. we can stop there.
@Tim Dunn willing to bet walking away from commenting on OMAAT & VFTW when they do?
thank you for putting in writing what everyone knew...you DESPERATELY want to see me NOT participate in aviation social media.
and it is precisely because of the facts that I bring to the discussion that you and others don't want to hear or read.
There are no more frequencies available for flights between the US and Japan even though US considers Japan an open skies country. It is very possible that Japan could decide to...
thank you for putting in writing what everyone knew...you DESPERATELY want to see me NOT participate in aviation social media.
and it is precisely because of the facts that I bring to the discussion that you and others don't want to hear or read.
There are no more frequencies available for flights between the US and Japan even though US considers Japan an open skies country. It is very possible that Japan could decide to add more flights but they won't do it just because AS decided to fly to Asia long after the latest HND frequency allocation award.
And DL asked the DOT to be able to change existing HND awards, specifically regarding its PDX-HND award which DL received during covid and never flew. The DOT denied but AA supported DL and UA jumped in wanting to fly IAH-HND instead of to NRT.
Every US carrier would like to change something about their Tokyo awards and it is certain that AS would fly to HND if it had a slot. JL might switch their SEA flight to HND - but they have to drop something they currently fly. Let us know what that might be. Since they fly HND-HNL double daily and so does HA, JL could reduce its presence by one but that just helps DL and NH which also serve the market.
and AA did jump in and take DL's previous PDX-HND award to fly JFK-HND. there is no data on how well AA is doing on profits on that flight but its entire transpacific and transatlantic systems continue to lose money on an annual basis. UA makes money flying both the Atlantic and Pacific but at a far lower rate than DL does.
those realities are inconvenient for a whole lot of airline specific cheerleaders but they are facts.
And as much as one CEO loves to talk about the profitability of his company's hubs, it is AA and WN that fly huge portions of their systems at barely breakeven at best and likely half or more of their networks fly at a loss - in addition to several LCCs and ULCCs.
All of the internet talk about DL's vulnerability at SEA and how AS or JL or anyone else is going to knock DL out of the market can't explain how DL manages to lead the US industry in profitability. If SEA was so bad for DL, then why can't AA and UA duplicate what DL does in other parts of the country to generate profits sufficiently large for DL to subsidize not just SEA but other supposedly money-losing hubs?
and if DL loses money at SEA, then AS would likely have a predatory pricing case against DL - unless AS loses money flying other parts of their network and they know that if they accuse DL of taking share at SEA at a loss, DL and other carriers will do the same about AS.
So, no, I have no intention of ending my presence on airline social media regardless of what happens in the industry. you and others clearly want me to stop saying what I say which is all the more reason for me to keep stating my message.
JL might want AS in the oneworld JV but it will harm AA because AS will compete in at least some O&Ds that AA carries traffic in full or part via the JV.
There is no mechanism for AS to fly to HND under current regulations - and even if something changes, every other carrier US will restructure their own Tokyo operations.
and given the way the industry is operating now, DL continues to lead the industry as the most profitable US carrier on an ASM basis, and has the largest JV while UA is the largest single carrier across the Pacific because of its presence outside of the US, Japan and S. Korea which are the primary countries for the TPAC JVs.
See, I knew you wouldn’t put your money where your mouth is. Instead, #wordsalad
“no HND slots will be added”… Just look for me in the comments of the article announcing a new round of US flights.
Japan can ALWAYS decide to add more flights - and AS could well - probably likely would - win an award IF more HND frequencies are added
but there is no indication that Japan is willing to do that.
based on the current situation, there is no ability for any additional HND flights. Even if JL wants to start SEA-HND flights on its own metal and allow AS to fly SEA-NRT, JL would have to...
Japan can ALWAYS decide to add more flights - and AS could well - probably likely would - win an award IF more HND frequencies are added
but there is no indication that Japan is willing to do that.
based on the current situation, there is no ability for any additional HND flights. Even if JL wants to start SEA-HND flights on its own metal and allow AS to fly SEA-NRT, JL would have to drop some other HND flight.
I have yet to hear a single person speculate about what HND flight JL would drop in order to start SEA-HND flights.
until a oneworld carrier adds SEA-HND, there is no impact on DL or NH's SEA service; AS will be chasing the same connecting traffic over HND that is connected over multiple Asian hubs including ICN and TPE, the former of which, like NRT, is part of a big 3 JV while all of the current TPE nonstops are not part of the JV.
it is not word salad to note these facts, including that AS' larger size at SEA does not mean they have or will have any better ability to connect passengers to longhaul international flights than DL. not every city contributes anything. AS' larger size than DL is heavily driven by more frequencies in the same markets. Only ONE flight is the ideal connection to any international flight. AS' 6th and 7th additional flights compared to DL do nothing to improve AS' ability to connect international flights.
the only word salad is your senseless inability to accept industry facts and reality because they do not meet your narrative.
"they do not meet your narrative"
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. You make me laugh. You're the king of throwing a fit if there's one negative mention of DL. If United is mentioned, you go into full on meltdown. See you in the UA/AA HND expansion article.
put the crack pipe down.
If only they include Cathay Pacific to the Pacific Joint Business too.
Now THAT would be a powerful grouping. AA would steamroll DL and UA overnight in the Asia-Pacific if that happened.
HKG and China do not have Open Skies with the US which is generally required by the US in order to have JVs.
and HKG is halfway down the Pacific Rim so is far less valuable as a TPAC hub than Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan or Beijing
The Hong Kong government will happily sign an open skies agreement if Cathay Pacific wants it.
The only barrier is American and JAL agreeing to include them in the Pacific JV.
CX/HKG is an amazing hub, with multiple waves of flights, with great connectivity to Southeast Asia, a big and growing market. AA/CX/JL combined would much more market share and pricing power.
Yike DL just cannot catch a break out of SEA :(
all the fantasies on internet social media have absolutely no impact in the real world.
AS is PLANNING to fly to an airport that DL doesn't even serve.
Alaska has quite the hub in San Diego. Japan Airlines offers the only nonstop service from SAN to Tokyo. And I may be wrong but I don't think it's daily. Alaska from SAN to Japan would be quite interesting. I don't think AS could compete from SFO or LAX given the shear volume of legacy carriers in those markets.
This feels like the logical/inevitable outcome for all parties. AS needs to be in the JV to make its long-haul flights work (whether from SEA or HNL). Then there will be competition from DL/KE at SEA too or UA/ANA/AC via SFO or YVR (since YVR has both sterile transit and US pre-clearance).
Whether all three alliance JVs make enough profit on the transpacific flights/connections is a different matter that only time will tell.
Well I certainly know my preference when traveling down the back of the plane
1. JAL (only airline that has kept the original 2-4-2 layout of the 787
8. Alaska
infinity: American
I'm not sure why adding Alaska to the American/Japan Airlines joint venture wouldn't be anything but positive for all concerned. And I really wonder if all the "damaged egos" that fans and pundits mention regarding airline managements mainly exist in their imaginations. Ego tends to take a back seat to money in the long term.
IMHO - LAX is too far south to be an effective Northern Asia connecting hub and Seattle is the...
I'm not sure why adding Alaska to the American/Japan Airlines joint venture wouldn't be anything but positive for all concerned. And I really wonder if all the "damaged egos" that fans and pundits mention regarding airline managements mainly exist in their imaginations. Ego tends to take a back seat to money in the long term.
IMHO - LAX is too far south to be an effective Northern Asia connecting hub and Seattle is the only real alternative that isn't named SFO. Both Delta (the world's only PERFECT airline, according to one contributor to this blog) and American/Alaska/JAL can effectively compete with each other (with or without a joint venture that includes Alaska) across the Pacific from Seattle while still carving out individual niches that cater to their strengths. In theory, AA/AS/JL should be stronger to Japan and beyond while DL should be stronger to Korea and beyond (Duh!). And ... JL can theoretically move a Haneda frequency to SEA to bolster its joint venture position - if it makes sense economically. Both competitors have different alliance partners across the Pacific, and can potentially leverage those connections to carve out profitable operations to northern Asia in cooperation with those partners if they're prudent - IMHO.
let's be clear that it is you, not me, that thinks that DL is a perfect airline, let alone THE perfect airline.
Yes, LAX is all about the local market and not as a connecting hub. That reality, in part is why AA's LAX-Asia expansion failed. the bigger reason is that AA lost so much share in LAX- mostly to DL. DL has used its greater market share so far to grow in the S....
let's be clear that it is you, not me, that thinks that DL is a perfect airline, let alone THE perfect airline.
Yes, LAX is all about the local market and not as a connecting hub. That reality, in part is why AA's LAX-Asia expansion failed. the bigger reason is that AA lost so much share in LAX- mostly to DL. DL has used its greater market share so far to grow in the S. Pacific. UA's traditional strength on the west coast has given it reason to try to capture the fragmented LAX international market and also keep DL from growing.
Yes, Japanese carriers can move their HND slots while US carriers cannot so JL could move its own SEA-NRT slot to HND - but they don't get any more slots so you can let us know what HND flight JL is likely to cancel.
and, I have repeatedly said that the oneworld JV w/ AS added would enhance the competitive position relative to DL/KE and UA/NH.
the issue is solely that the US has a very limited history of granting two US carriers participation in the same JV w/ another carrier.
and, while AS is stronger in the west, removing AA from the SEA-NRT route in order to allow AS will harm AA even more in the west.
THOSE are the key issues....
“ let's be clear that it is you, not me, that thinks that DL is a perfect airline, let alone THE perfect airline.”
Tell us your view of delta’s imperfections.
I’d love to hear you describe them since you don’t think delta is perfect
Delta is at the top of the heap in the legacy carrier industry but it is not perfect.
Feel free to peruse DOT data.
DL doesn't have a 100% on-time rating.
lol
Surprising they don’t with their block padding but ok
Tom Dunn boutta have a field day!!! Getting the popcorn ready
all you and others prove is how much you and others are fixated w/ me.
As much as some want to do all possible to avoid admitting it, AA will not benefit by JL admitting AS to the JV; JL probably needs AA's permission but AA might not have much choice.
As Ben and multiple people have noted, AA is weak to Asia and esp. from the west coast. AA/JL is smaller on the...
all you and others prove is how much you and others are fixated w/ me.
As much as some want to do all possible to avoid admitting it, AA will not benefit by JL admitting AS to the JV; JL probably needs AA's permission but AA might not have much choice.
As Ben and multiple people have noted, AA is weak to Asia and esp. from the west coast. AA/JL is smaller on the west coast than both UA/NH and DL/KE.
Of course AS wants to stop DL's advance into SEA but they have yet to implement anything that is competitive w/ DL = a NRT flight, even if it succeeds, won't harm DL.
There is and will be no field days... just honest discussion of facts.
Dude, your constant trolling is what led the fixation.
It’s not that. The thing is, he is so delusional that he misunderstands being a laughing stock for “people being fixated on me”. The only people interested in what he has to say are him and the fake profiles that he creates to compliment himself, yet in his sick delusional mind he seems to think that OMAAT depends on him for page clicks. Yes, it’s that crazy. I don’t know what his mind condition is,...
It’s not that. The thing is, he is so delusional that he misunderstands being a laughing stock for “people being fixated on me”. The only people interested in what he has to say are him and the fake profiles that he creates to compliment himself, yet in his sick delusional mind he seems to think that OMAAT depends on him for page clicks. Yes, it’s that crazy. I don’t know what his mind condition is, but it appears to make him think that he is a very important and relevant person who people are fixated on, when in reality people are just having fun seeing him make such a fool of himself for free. It’s solid entertainment.
“ As Ben and multiple people have noted, AA is weak to Asia and esp. from the west coast. AA/JL is smaller on the...”
Yeah. That’s the point of the article
How that changes.
But nice job explaining the obvious of why it makes so much sense
and you and others want to believe that AS will dethrone DL. we get it.
AS isn't dethroning anything with a 2-2-2 business class cabin to a second tier airport that DL doesn't even serve.
DL flies to HND which is where the local market wants to go in Tokyo.
There’s nothing for Alaska to dethrone.
Delta is half the size of Alaska in Seattle
I'd say another thing that probably makes this more appealing to AA is in the context of their overall widebody fleet availability issue. While UA and DL are miles ahead in providing widebody service to Europe and LATAM, AA is constantly stuggling to compete effectively with a shortage of widebody aircraft. By strategically ceding some traffic to AS, they will be able to free up some of their own widebody planes to fly to destinations...
I'd say another thing that probably makes this more appealing to AA is in the context of their overall widebody fleet availability issue. While UA and DL are miles ahead in providing widebody service to Europe and LATAM, AA is constantly stuggling to compete effectively with a shortage of widebody aircraft. By strategically ceding some traffic to AS, they will be able to free up some of their own widebody planes to fly to destinations not served by the Transpac JV. Just a thought...
Just curious, what exactly do you think AA is going to serve that's not a JV hub? HKG, PEK, SIN?
They serve maybe a grand total of two non JV TPAC destinations. All I can think of is ICN and AKL tbh. And AKL barely counts.
You’ll enjoy learning more. They serve more than two in Oceania and Asia and more than you mentioned despite why you think serving akl from two hubs means nothing (more than delta).
And far more in europe than non JV hubs
You and tim have a lot in common for a “guest” profile. You both use facts fast and loose and make random claims that aren’t true.
But sure. Adding Alaska to the JV makes...
You’ll enjoy learning more. They serve more than two in Oceania and Asia and more than you mentioned despite why you think serving akl from two hubs means nothing (more than delta).
And far more in europe than non JV hubs
You and tim have a lot in common for a “guest” profile. You both use facts fast and loose and make random claims that aren’t true.
But sure. Adding Alaska to the JV makes a ton of sense for AA. American has no advantages to Asia, unlike United. They’ve never had historical help like delta (that completely squandered it and is likely in a distant third place dependent on Korean if as joins the AA Asian JV) but they serve many many places that aren’t JV hubs
Read more comments than what tim says then say more than what Tim types for you. You’ll learn something.
Lmao you're just salty that I disagreed with you once and actually had facts to back it up. Notice how I specifically said that's NOT a JV hub?
Ofc AA has flights to a few Asia and Oceania destinations outside of the ones I mentioned. The point is that AA has a heavy overreliance on JV partners to the point it diminishes their own network. JAL and QF do most of the heavy lifting for...
Lmao you're just salty that I disagreed with you once and actually had facts to back it up. Notice how I specifically said that's NOT a JV hub?
Ofc AA has flights to a few Asia and Oceania destinations outside of the ones I mentioned. The point is that AA has a heavy overreliance on JV partners to the point it diminishes their own network. JAL and QF do most of the heavy lifting for AA. JAL is roughly 2x the size of AA in terms of TPAC ASMs, and the proof is in the pudding, AA just doesn't fly to that many other TPAC destinations that aren't Australia and Japan. I forgot PVG, but there's really just that few other unique destinations that they serve.
I didn't mention AS a single time in my comment above, but you're just that butthurt since I stated from the beginning that AS will help the OW JV, but not to the drastic proportions you think it will to let them match the UA/ANA JV, it's just completely unrealistic, and you can't accept that.
You're so Tim-brained that you assume the worst and you quite honestly spend the most amount of time of any single person on here replying to him in real-time to an unhealthy point. Like Tim is not even in this reply thread, but you're here shadowboxing against him for some reason, very sad.
yolo for the win!
max got yolo'd
Read and learn
Bne and pvg are two but whatever helps you not learn or research
Congrats
You have the internet joke on your side
Jesus, you really are so deranged.
I literally mentioned PVG in my reply and BNE is a Qantas hub. I suppose there is a reason why you spend all your time replying to Tim Dunn.
It’s nice that tim has friends
Real or imaginary
But please
Keep with the facts you don’t know about
Always cute how Tim’s guest accounts are so quickly replied to by him
The topic is Alaska so it’s pertinent to mention is as it pertains to the future potential state of a Jv
Tim
How many fake accounts do you have?
So I did add this in the comments of the ZIPAIR article, and I'll emphasize it again, if it gets approved, this will be beneficial to AA/JAL, but not to the extent that people really think.
In order to clear the legal regulatory hurdles, they need to demonstrate that this JV is both necessary and maintains fair competition.
Currently, UA/NH are miles (literally) ahead of the competition. UA is by and large the #1 TPAC...
So I did add this in the comments of the ZIPAIR article, and I'll emphasize it again, if it gets approved, this will be beneficial to AA/JAL, but not to the extent that people really think.
In order to clear the legal regulatory hurdles, they need to demonstrate that this JV is both necessary and maintains fair competition.
Currently, UA/NH are miles (literally) ahead of the competition. UA is by and large the #1 TPAC carrier, close to the combined KE/DL TPAC ASMs. In contrast, AA is a significant laggard in terms of TPAC (smaller than PAL), roughly half the size of ANA or JAL alone. KE will be acquiring Asiana (which is about 20% larger than AA in terms of pax volume), so the KE/DL JV will get a boost from that. So by all means, there is justification for AS to be necessary for the OW JV.
AS offers a nice secondary West Coast gateway with SEA, but it will not drastically disrupt the status quo. SEA has fractional O&D TPAC demand compared to the major markets still, only about 700k annually vs the top metros LA 2.9M, NY 2.7M, and SF 2.2M.
By and large, it'll offer a healthy (and needed) boost to the OW TPAC JV, but I don't see them disrupting the market in any crazy way.
I agree with you other than that this is completely beneficial to AA.
AA will lose exclusivity with JL between the US and Japan and that does come at some cost. AS is stronger on the west coast than AA so this could negatively impact AA even at LAX and in cities that AA serves via DFW but AS also serves via SEA.
It is greatly accurate that the KE/OZ merger has significant implications for...
I agree with you other than that this is completely beneficial to AA.
AA will lose exclusivity with JL between the US and Japan and that does come at some cost. AS is stronger on the west coast than AA so this could negatively impact AA even at LAX and in cities that AA serves via DFW but AS also serves via SEA.
It is greatly accurate that the KE/OZ merger has significant implications for TPAC JVs because it is also tied to DL's own TPAC growth. DL and KE have had to wait until the OZ merger was approved in order to do a million things over the Pacific.
Yes, you are correct, that a stronger oneworld TPAC JV is good for competition and will be approved on that basis. There are downsides to AA in losing exclusivity that shouldn't be lost.
Oh oh oh.. now look at that.. somebody is changing tunes hoping nobody would notice it! LOL…
Nothing has changed in what I have written
Hawaiian Airlines A330 business class is described in this article as not being competitive but it provides sufficient comfort being a lie flat seat. True, no doors. However, the layout is actually better for couples.
and given that probably 85% of Mainland - Hawaii travel is leisure (couples, families) I agree that this configuration is uniquely ideal for HA.
I'm more so surprised that AA can keep any partners at this point. You think they would be looking elsewhere by now.
And yet delta pays $2B to lure them away from AA (AFTER Latam knew they’d never get a JV with AA. Delta still had to spend $2b and buy their unwanted planes) then loses all that money a year later while United takes them from delta with ease (virgin Australia)
No way! Here are some direct quotes from self-proclaimed aviation expert who's always right and sticks to the facts Tim Dunn on Alaska's intl expansion and desire to join a JV:
"The notion that AS is going to develop a large scale international network anytime in the next 5 years is beyond fanciful."
Alaska then came out 2 months later and announced that it is targeting 12 international routes from SEA in the next 3-4...
No way! Here are some direct quotes from self-proclaimed aviation expert who's always right and sticks to the facts Tim Dunn on Alaska's intl expansion and desire to join a JV:
"The notion that AS is going to develop a large scale international network anytime in the next 5 years is beyond fanciful."
Alaska then came out 2 months later and announced that it is targeting 12 international routes from SEA in the next 3-4 years.
"As much as some people want to believe otherwise, there is little incentive for AS to want to be a part of a JV with AA and the DOJ is very likely to have a bigger issue with having AA/AS as the same anchors of JVs than they did with AA and B6."
JAL has announced that they are looking to add Alaska to their JV.
"AS will start its longhaul international expansion by serving NRT, an airport that gets just 2/3 of the average fare of flights to HND from the same destination. NRT makes sense if you have a joint venture but AS does not have one and even JL agrees to add AS to the AA-JL JV, it will mean the end of AA-JL cooperation at least as far as international goes. The US does not and will not allow two US carriers to have a JV with the same foreign carrier."
Well looks like JAL is agreeing and looking to keep its cooperation with AA.
For a self-proclaimed thought expert on aviation who sticks to the facts, there sure are a lot of prognostications that were completely and repeatedly way off.
Couldn’t agree more. Well put.
But wow. Please don’t waste more of your time saving Tim’s quotes. Nobody reads his articles as it is, much less his ramblings in the comment sections from himself or his 5 alter ego fake guest accounts
People say fear of what may be motivates long, rambling, illogical thought
Seems they’re correct when it comes to fear of delta’s future place in the pacific.
nothing that has developed counters anything I have said.
AS has announced precisely ONE longhaul international route NRT - which is not served by DL.
It is AA that will lose by having AS part of the JV.
and, no, AA has not agreed to having AS join the JV and they might not have any choice anyway. JL is going to protect JL's interests, not AA's.
and since there are plenty of airline employees...
nothing that has developed counters anything I have said.
AS has announced precisely ONE longhaul international route NRT - which is not served by DL.
It is AA that will lose by having AS part of the JV.
and, no, AA has not agreed to having AS join the JV and they might not have any choice anyway. JL is going to protect JL's interests, not AA's.
and since there are plenty of airline employees that read this blog, I continue to see how AA employees can be the least bit happy to see AA deepen its JVs including allowing AS - a carrier with which AA doesn't even have a JV - compete more and more directly with an AA JV Partner.
Haha… You were COMPLETELY wrong. Why not at least exhibit the decency of accepting that you were wrong?
Because it is obviously you and a few other people desperately want to make me look wrong because you can’t accept the reality which I have repeatedly laid out
Any joint venture between AS and JL will harm AA
AS is selling precisely one international long haul flight to an airport doesn’t even serve. AS has successfully implemented nothing that changes the competitive dynamic that exists between AS and DL
I do have to...
Because it is obviously you and a few other people desperately want to make me look wrong because you can’t accept the reality which I have repeatedly laid out
Any joint venture between AS and JL will harm AA
AS is selling precisely one international long haul flight to an airport doesn’t even serve. AS has successfully implemented nothing that changes the competitive dynamic that exists between AS and DL
I do have to smile how hard some people work to save and find my posts so they can bring them back and argue against me
LMAO really not - you're lying again when the facts are in front of your face. "Any joint venture between AS and JL will harm AA".
False - you said:
1) there will be major concessions AS will have to give up for the AS-Hawaiian merger (not true)
2) AS would not create a large international network at Seattle for at least 5 years a few months ago - Alaska is aiming for 12 international...
LMAO really not - you're lying again when the facts are in front of your face. "Any joint venture between AS and JL will harm AA".
False - you said:
1) there will be major concessions AS will have to give up for the AS-Hawaiian merger (not true)
2) AS would not create a large international network at Seattle for at least 5 years a few months ago - Alaska is aiming for 12 international routes by 2030 and 7 by 2026. DL currently offers 7 - no one talked about offering routes DL does not except yourself right now. Your claim was inaccurate
3) AS would have no interest in joining the TransPacific JV (you said that with your own words). We have strong evidence that they are interested
4) If AS were to join the JV, then JAL would give up its relationship with AA - JAL is saying they are looking to have a JV with AA and AS
We do not know how AA feels, but you have clearly and directly been proven wrong on this situation consistently over the past 6 months. I saved these messages, b/c they were uninformed at the time you made them and I knew they'd be hilarious to look at with the Battle of Seattle about to pick up with the results looking like they won't be good for DL in 4-5 years. They came true.
You have a lot of other similar claims about DL's incoming massive expansion at LAX to Asia that was supposed to happen 2 years ago (SIN, ICN, etc were supposed to be announced in 2022 or by the latest 2023!). For the amount of inaccurate claims you consistently make that are neither backed in "facts" or come true you'd think you'd be more humble.
ChatGPTim BUSTED!!!!!!
I know you salivate but half of what you fixate on has not been decided.
Get back w/ us when JL has added AS to the JV and the implications for AA are known.
since Ben has created a separate article about this potential JV, I will copy the relevant parts from the Zipair article where it was previously revealed in the comments section.
The US DOJ has not allowed two US carriers to have JVs either with each other or on the same route for any period of time. That was the basis of the rejection of the NEA and also why the DOJ takes the approach of...
since Ben has created a separate article about this potential JV, I will copy the relevant parts from the Zipair article where it was previously revealed in the comments section.
The US DOJ has not allowed two US carriers to have JVs either with each other or on the same route for any period of time. That was the basis of the rejection of the NEA and also why the DOJ takes the approach of a one to one relationship between US and foreign carriers in JVs. JVs involve capacity planning, fare coordination, and revenue and/or profit sharing so requires deep insight into how each airline operates.
Also, JVs are based on how much capacity each airline puts into the JV. AA does not get 50% of the revenue or profits from the JL JV because it puts in far less of the capacity.
It is possible that the DOJ could allow AA and AS to be part of the same JV with JL but not for the same routes. SEA-Tokyo is both an O&D and a leg. It is most likely that AS would be part of the JL JV on the SEA-NRT leg and AA would not be allowed even though AA is part of the JL JV on the SEA-NRT leg today.
The beyond SEA or US gateways O&Ds are the issue and it is possible that the DOJ would approve the JV with AA/JL and AS for non- gateway O&Ds such as MCI or MCO on O&Ds that could be served by either AA or AS and then JL TPAC or completely on AA or AS to Tokyo. AA/JL is smaller than UA/NH in the LOCAL Tokyo market.
The DOJ could and likely will allow JV cooperation on the US to beyond gateway O&Ds as bilaterals allow.
The real issue w/ all of this buildup in Japan is that Japanese carriers are realizing that KE is on the verge of overtaking Japan’s role as the primary NE Asia connecting COUNTRY – a role Japan has traditionally held.
Japan’s two airport in Tokyo divides international traffic and siphons off the highest value Tokyo local revenue to HND. Japanese carriers as well as AA and UA are trying to save NRT’s function for legacy carriers by pushing connecting traffic through NRT. It will be increasingly challenging financially to make US-NRT legacy carrier flights work when the highest value local Tokyo traffic is increasingly being siphoned off to HND.
And DL is still the largest US carrier at HND based on traffic to the US. And Japan is part of the DL-KE JV.
UA is the largest carrier across the Pacific because of their presence to MNL, HKG and South along the Pacific Rim. DL and UA are essentially the same size to NE Asia – Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan and China – based on published schedules.
Adding in OZ’s capacity – which goes into KE’s bank accounts but is not part of the JV – DL/KE/OZ is comparable in size to UA/NH.
JL does not serve SEA-HND which DL and NH do. JL has every reason to try to push traffic onto its network and help its flights work. A JV with AS would put two flights on SEA-NRT and much more traffic on either end, benefitting AS and JL.
DL's network won't be any weaker regardless of what AS or JL do. AS might become another player w/ a shared gateway at SEA but that is true in other west coast markets.
And again, AS hasn't even loaded their ICN flight which they said would start this year. There is a long ways from adding an airport - NRT- which DL doesn't even serve to being a competitor from SEA across DL's global network.
and DL/KE is still larger than any other TPAC JV - not all UA capacity is part of their JV w/ NH - and the gap will only widen as OZ capacity is absorbed by KE or replaced by DL metal, either of which will increase the size of the DL/KE JV since OZ is not part of the DL/KE JV
Doj doesn't grant/ evaluate joint ventures. Dot does. Different agency. Get it right or do t bother.
you are generally correct.
The DOJ does have jurisdiction over mergers which is why these discussions always become a blend.
and the DOJ did shoot down the NEA which was not a merger. The DOT overseas foreign JVs while the DOJ takes precedence over mergers - international or between 2 domestic carriers.
It is not out of the realm of possibility that the DOJ would have something to say in a JV application that involves both AA and AS.
Sounds like you know your stuff. Doesn't excuse your being a douche
lol
False.
The DoT were than happy to have Continental and United be in a joint venture with ANA.
Even after the CO/UA merger was announced, the DoT considered them separate entrants throughout the approval process.