Here’s a story that several OMAAT readers have now brought to my attention, as they’re wondering how something like this is possible. I can totally see how this can happen in the first place, though unfortunately the customer service response is where things get super frustrating.
In this post:
Air France claims passenger skipped segment, but he didn’t
There’s a thread on X that’s getting quite a bit of attention, involving an Air France-KLM ticket, with the outbound flight from New York (JFK) to Amsterdam (AMS) on KLM, and the return flight from Paris (CDG) to New York (JFK) on Air France.
This story is shared by the partner of the person who was impacted by this. According to the claims, upon check-in for the return flight in Paris, the traveler was asked to pay a €500 “out of sequence” fee, as the claim was that he didn’t take the outbound portion of the itinerary.
That would all be fair enough if it were true, but this is the issue — the traveler insists they were both on that flight. Nonetheless, Air France wouldn’t budge, and the agents reportedly asked him to submit proof, so that he could be reimbursed for that.
He sent proof that the Verizon phone connected to the Dutch network near Schiphol within two minutes of when they landed, and even provided timestamped photos of the flight, including selfies with metadata.
Despite the evidence, Air France responded to the refund complaint same day, simply reiterating the initial point — the airline claimed he didn’t take the flight, and therefore they couldn’t provide any sort of a refund. They seemingly just ignored all the evidence submitted.
Now he has taken his situation to social media, in hopes that this gets a resolution…
How could this happen, what can we make of it?
It goes without saying that something like this shouldn’t happen, but with the number of people being transported by airlines, things do sometimes go wrong.
I can totally see how the initial problem happened — for whatever reason, the system just didn’t show him as boarded correctly. I would imagine that the boarding pass didn’t scan correctly, or there was some other system glitch. This is very rare, but with the volume of people traveling by air, stuff like this is going to go wrong every so often.
That brings us to the second question — why is the airline seemingly unable to address this in a satisfactory way? The airline requested documentation, then he provided that documentation, and they they ignored it, and just reiterated that he wasn’t actually on the flight.
Unfortunately this is just increasingly becoming the reality of airline customer service, and it’s frustrating. So much customer service has been outsourced to AI or (at a minimum) people who aren’t actually trained or empowered to make reasonable decisions, and that’s how we end up in these situations.
I would imagine the person who opened the email (if it was a human, and not AI) probably isn’t trained in judging evidence as to whether or not someone was actually on a flight, since I imagine this doesn’t happen that often.
Unfortunately this is one of those scenarios that has the best chance of being resolved by bringing publicity to it. Between the amount of traction the post is getting on X, plus this being picked up elsewhere, I hope this person will be made whole.
Bottom line
A traveler booked a roundtrip transatlantic ticket on Air France-KLM. The outbound went off without a hitch, and upon checking in for the return, the traveler was hit with a €500 “out of sequence” fee, with the claim being that he didn’t take the outbound flight.
The only issue is that he insists he did take the flight. So the airline asked him to submit evidence of having taken the outbound flight, which he did about as well as anyone could. Despite that, the airline refused to budge, just insisting he wasn’t actually on the flight.
This is something that’s extremely rare, but goodness, talk about some frustration!
What do you make of this “out of sequence” ticket situation?
They also went through imitation at schipol- no way around that - electronic or traditional- or does AF thinks they teleported there?
I went through Schiphol on May 21st and they had not opened the EEs entry lanes so I had to get a stamp. I would assume this person did as well.
AirFrance interactions can either be a bitch or a Queen - I worked for them at JFK for over 3 years. Always keep in mind there are two sides to every story. Hope this gets resolved in favor of all parties.
AirFrance interactions can either be a bitch or a Queen - I worked for them at JFK for over 3 years. Always keep in mind there are two sides to every story. Hope this gets resolved in favor of all parties.
They didn't save their boarding passes? I always keep them for a couple of days just in case, like right now I'm fighting a EU261 case with Iberia (I'm appealing their excuse of "fuel disruptions").
Boarding passes? Most people now use their phones- you do have a point but some airlines even charge you for them
I only use printed boarding passes and save them "forever". Boarding passes on your phone can disappear. Ditto hotel and car rental reservations.
Its also a commentary on how AF treats customer service. I've lived in France for nearly ten years and the customer is almost never right. See the multiple emails I've sent you about how AF unilaterally cancelled a ticket that they issued same day (also day of travel). Ben Smith wants the airline to be premium but EVEN IF you're in paid biz their customer service is awful at fixing what are obvious errors or breaches of EU261 and their own Ts+Cs.
Its also a commentary on how AF treats customer service. I've lived in France for nearly ten years and the customer is almost never right. See the multiple emails I've sent you about how AF unilaterally cancelled a ticket that they issued same day (also day of travel). Ben Smith wants the airline to be premium but EVEN IF you're in paid biz their customer service is awful at fixing what are obvious errors or breaches of EU261 and their own Ts+Cs.
Dealing with outsourced third party companies with untrained staff, who have no experience or knowledge of the industry. If you deal with an actual airline employee, it’s likely the matter would be resolved promptly. That’s why when I have a complaint I will always address it to the management. There’s no point dealing with first tier staff as they don’t work for the airline.
This is the reason I only book one way fares and not return tickets: Then they can’t come after you.
In the North Atlantic-Europe markets, most one way fares are almost as much as their round trip fares. Might be able to do that domestically but not on Europe fares.
Meanwhile, Gary Leff is quoted in a NYT article about United refusing to compensate a passenger whose business-class seat was stuck in the flat position, without access to the seat belt, for most of the 14-hour flight. Hope to see Ben's take on this issue.
It's great when you hear the line "if you want better service flying you've got to pay for it" and the people do pay for it and it still sucks. Obviously I guess I have to fly private!
@Ross
Stay onboard upon arrival and ask to speak to the ground manager. Then go to your doctor to let them know you have muscle and back pains after a recent flight due to a seat malfunction. Then follow up with United about your injuries and doctor visit and that all you want is a full refund so you can rebook a future United flight. You will get the full refund promptly.
I am still amazed by the fact the air travel industry is allowed to make these rules that would be absurd in any other circumstances.
If I order a soup and salad at a restaurant and decide it’s too hot to have the soup, the restaurant would be within its rights not to refund me. It wouldn’t be within its right to then charge me extra for the provelege of eating the salad I...
I am still amazed by the fact the air travel industry is allowed to make these rules that would be absurd in any other circumstances.
If I order a soup and salad at a restaurant and decide it’s too hot to have the soup, the restaurant would be within its rights not to refund me. It wouldn’t be within its right to then charge me extra for the provelege of eating the salad I already paid for.
If I book a hotel room that includes breakfast and fail to show up for breakfast - can you imagine the hotel denying me the room unless I pay a panelty for staying in bed and missing breakfast?
This airline charge has zero justification other than “they can”. I assume that any ambitious lawyer could challange it in a court with a fairly high chance of winning.
PS. Ben- in case you’re reading this, your blog is becoming harder and harder to read on a mobile device. The ads just show from every side with no close button.
100% this. If EU passengers rights regulation gets reopened, this needs to be addressed = banned.
Also, AdBlockers exist for a reason :)
GTFO. Freeloader using adblockers.
Is using “Adblockers” a crime Eskimo?
The real question is how much one should tip adblockers.
You Brits can only use crime as a benchmark?
Being a wanker kunt isn't a krime.
You're still definitely a kunt and a wanker.
I think that you have to complain to the FAA and EU authorities and hope that they can put some pressure on the airline to refund the payment. Failing that, small claims. court.
Well I would define this sort of behavior, if true, as fraud on the airline's part. If I personally defrauded someone of that kind of money, I could go to jail. I believe if corporate decision makers start facing jail time for stealing money from their customers, things would change. Fat chance of that!
Air France refused to send reimbursement for my wife's delayed baggage because the signature on her passport didn't exactly match the signature on the form she had to sign. And then they closed the case with any options. They are miserable to deal with.
That's weird, AFKL never asked for my ID when claiming delayed baggage reimbursement. At what point did they request it?
This happened to me on a delta ticket operated by klm recently. Flew to AMS but then they cancelled the intra-Europe saying I didn’t board the first flight. Fortunately there was a thinker behind the counter at AMS that argued on my behalf with ticketing saying ‘the passenger is standing right in front of me I can assure you he took the flight’
There is a very simple explanation why this is so difficult to resolve. First and foremost, regardless of AI or human, the agent will believe what THEIR system says. And if THEIR system says “Not flown”, that’s basically it: Not flown.
If there still are any human agents, they are probably told again and again that they must adhere to the information provided by the system. It’s not that the agents are not trained,...
There is a very simple explanation why this is so difficult to resolve. First and foremost, regardless of AI or human, the agent will believe what THEIR system says. And if THEIR system says “Not flown”, that’s basically it: Not flown.
If there still are any human agents, they are probably told again and again that they must adhere to the information provided by the system. It’s not that the agents are not trained, it’s more like they are trained to follow a certain protocol rigidly.
The only way out for the customer is, if they know how to get to the second level, to a supervisor or someone who can actually make intelligent decisions. Those are rare and far between.
It’s a bit like how to manipulate a chatbot to convince the system to pass your case on to a human, but next level.
Only a few frequent flyers know, how to do this…
I traveled with my wife on a return flight the second segment of which was CLT to LGA we were seated together in first I was highest status (for over 20 years) and my wife second highest. she boarded before me then I presented my paper ticket and was told to step out of the line. in spite of an airline issued ticket I was told "you didn't check in dearie!" and eventually seated in...
I traveled with my wife on a return flight the second segment of which was CLT to LGA we were seated together in first I was highest status (for over 20 years) and my wife second highest. she boarded before me then I presented my paper ticket and was told to step out of the line. in spite of an airline issued ticket I was told "you didn't check in dearie!" and eventually seated in a center seat near the rear, my stunned wife looking at me as I passed her although I fumed I didn't make too big a fuss it being an 1 hr 20 min flight.
I eventually contacted customer service and was told this was the result of a computer glitch and was well compensated. had this been the Air France equivalent I probably would have acted differently
so..... to quote Forrest Gump, "it happens". but when it does the airline should act appropriately. AF has not
I am assuming he did not have any checked luggage? Otherwise it would have to be offloaded if airline claims passenger did not show up
excellent point
Next time, buy a new ticket. Claim 600€ for EU261 and the new ticket to Air France. Stupid idiots.
Had a similar case with LH - they lost 7.500€.
this is the way
AF/KLM is beyond ridiculous here. If the passenger didn’t take the first flight… wouldn’t the return ticket be canceled?
Aside from being unable to (directly) book AF/KM, I'm wondering why he doesn't just refuse/block/reverse payment of the fee?
Because AF would then ban him for life and declare him an ugly American?
Welcome to your AI future, as every company adopts this unreliable and dishonest technology so they can fire as many humans as possible to lower labor costs and boost profits. Expect more of this, suckers.
"AI" is a fraud.
Why are you blaming AI?
It's obviously a human error.
Reminds me of one Aman property on a power trip, insisting that the guest paid some made up amoubt of late check out fee and can't justify that amount of the fee.
They also improperly charge Mexico tourism tax to Mexico residents and citizens, and there is no way to get it refunded. They're just a brick wall. Ask me how I know.
Having just tried to make a claim under UK261 with KLM when they got me to my destination 3jrs and 25 minutes later than scheduled...only to be denied with ZERO proof, three times, by the same agent, which included a reply that said, and I quote 'I can assure you we are correct and you will not get compensation ' and proceeded to imply I didn't know what I was talking about (1855 scheduled arrival,...
Having just tried to make a claim under UK261 with KLM when they got me to my destination 3jrs and 25 minutes later than scheduled...only to be denied with ZERO proof, three times, by the same agent, which included a reply that said, and I quote 'I can assure you we are correct and you will not get compensation ' and proceeded to imply I didn't know what I was talking about (1855 scheduled arrival, actual 2245...say no more).
I am not at all surprised by this response. in this article. KLM have absolutely gone to the dogs. And I have senior status with them no less!
What on earth is a “senior status” with KLM?
Sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about, since if you did have any meaningful SkyTeam or FB status, you’d probably know what it’s called.
I don't have to wave my exact status in a post to be believed. The point of seniority was that its clearly not Explorer or Silver...
Three hours twenty-five late and you asked for compensation? It’s not worth the bother. You’re being petty,
Not really. I missed the event I was flying in for - so not petty, just enforcing my rights 25 minutes over the right to be compensated or three hours over the right to be compensated. I'm still entitled to be compensated.
Why is the burden of proof on the customer? How do you proof you were on the plane? Impossible ....
Which is why you want to get a paper boarding pass in the airport, get one printed at the lounge or the gate if nothing else.
Consider the airline response to other evidence.
What you suggest doesn't prove you boarded the flight. Just at most went to the airport.
"Which is why you want to get a paper boarding pass in the airport, get one printed at the lounge or the gate if nothing else."
But a paper boarding pass still doesn't prove one boarded the flight.
This entire episode is extremely maddening to read about.
Why would a paper boarding pass be more conclusive than a digital one? I don’t get that logic.
It is true it does not prove anything per se. But is a pretty good indication.
@CapitalMike
As electronic boarding passes have a tendency to disappear from apps on their own. Where paper ones tend to stick around until the passenger actively decides to dispose of them.
Or until the ink on the heat-sensitive paper fades into oblivion.
@Jack, which is why you'd want to get it the lounge or the gate. They don't print on the weirdly flimsy heat sensitive paper....
I mean the guy had excellent proof. Photos from the flight including in the air. The text message from the cell phone roaming was a great idea as well. Probably a good lesson to always take a photo on the flight of your seat or your meal or the view out the window so you have a timestamped geolocated record of your presence.
This person works for the DOJ. If a federal attorney is struggling with this, what are the chances for the average consumer?
If he's DOJ, then they should sue the airline for human trafficking.
Since one ended up in Amsterdam without records of leaving the origin.
On a side note, he was victim of a premium partner trafficking. RASM doesn't lie.
"Unfortunately this is just increasingly becoming the reality of airline customer service..."
It's not just airline customer service, it's ALL customer "service" across pretty much all industries, from medical offices and insurance companies to catalogue clothing companies. Their strategy (and this is not conjecture, it's a known strategy) is to try and stonewall people until they simply give up.
It's a shame that the Air France group participates in such behavior.
I really wish there was a universal secret "I'm not an idiot and tried all available self-service methods" button for customer service phone calls / emails to be transferred immediately to a manager capable of logical thought.
If you're ever in the mood for a headache-cum-rage, try reaching a human at FedEx or UPS. They'll often disconnect you if you don't have the information they demand via the IVR, so you're stuck trying and trying and before you know it you've wasted two hours of your life with nothing to show for it but a burst aneurysm.
I have had repeated experience of this with AF in particular. Once they take a position on something, no matter how egregiously wrong, they double down and will not budge. Their contact centre staff outside France are extremely unhelpful - at best poorly trained and unempowered, and at worst part of a deliberate policy of wearing the passenger down until they abandon the complaint. They frequently give false or misleading statements as fact, even when...
I have had repeated experience of this with AF in particular. Once they take a position on something, no matter how egregiously wrong, they double down and will not budge. Their contact centre staff outside France are extremely unhelpful - at best poorly trained and unempowered, and at worst part of a deliberate policy of wearing the passenger down until they abandon the complaint. They frequently give false or misleading statements as fact, even when it is clear they themselves do not actually understand the issue. AF once tried to charge me around EUR 1,300 for a flight change that should have been free. The US contact centre insisted the charge was required. The French contact centre, dealing with the same booking, confirmed it should be free. Passengers are simply being told whatever is most convenient in the moment.
I have started moving fairly swiftly through to complaining directly to the DOT and bypassing AF - they can't be trusted to mark their own homework.
He should involve the department of transportation and FAA and tell them Air France apparently submitted a false manifest for this flight omitting them as passengers. The DOT will request a response from Air France. If Air France fails to respond they will be fined, if they submitted and incomplete manifest, they're probably in trouble, and if they confirm they were on the flight, then he has their legal team on record that AF was wrong.
Given the vindictiveness of airlines these days, such action would probably get him banned from AF.
With the recent incident with AF improperly boarding a passenger from the DRC and needing to divert to Montreal instead, I can’t imagine that the DOT is taking a friendly view of AF boarding records at the moment.
@Jack
That is probably a minor inconvenience in the bigger picture.
It is a great idea to file complaints with the FAA/DOT/Dutch regulator etc that they flew with a misleading manifest. And did not form a propper head count to manifest reconciliation.
What's the challenge of being banned on AFKLM? There are very few destinations, if any, where they are the only option. If they did this to me, I'd probably go out...
@Jack
That is probably a minor inconvenience in the bigger picture.
It is a great idea to file complaints with the FAA/DOT/Dutch regulator etc that they flew with a misleading manifest. And did not form a propper head count to manifest reconciliation.
What's the challenge of being banned on AFKLM? There are very few destinations, if any, where they are the only option. If they did this to me, I'd probably go out of my way to avoid flying them for a good deal of time, so the ban would basically not matter....
I don't think that AF have a track record of banning passengers willy nilly, this is something more likely to happen with a Middle Eastern airline, or possibly a US one, than one from Europe.
@CPH-Flyer, there are some places in Africa and the Caribbean which you can reach with airlines other than AFKL but they don't have much other long-haul service and it may not be possible to get there on a single ticket and/or without multiple connections.
Since I am not in Paris or Amsterdam, I'd need to connect anyway. I guess there might be some overseas French or Dutch colonies that would not have other airlines, but that would go in it the 'limited number' bucket.
I meant double connections, there are some surprisingly big/important cities in Africa which have very few long haul flights.