Publication Air Mail ran a story entitled “The Bonvoy Problem,” with the subheading being “Points programs are destroying the luxury-hotel experience. Can anything stop the freeloaders?”
While the thesis isn’t completely wrong (in terms points programs having an impact on the hotel experience, and also impacting economics), I consider this to be a very bad take, and the level of pretentiousness here is next level… let’s unpack.
In this post:
Are people redeeming points terrible freeloaders?
Okay, that’s not my take, but that’s essentially what’s being argued in this story. Let’s first go over the claims being made, and in the next section, I’ll share my take. The story starts with the following:
Several years ago, at a confidential meeting hosted by one of the world’s top hotel chains, a manager launched into a rant. He ran one of the chain’s flagship ultra-luxury properties and was facing a constant, unfixable problem: guests staying for free on points.
“These folks showed up with coolers full of their own food, and had everything removed from the mini-bar so they could put it in there,” he said. “Their sole goal was to stay in the hotel, and spend as little as possible, making sandwiches at the breakfast buffet”—included in the rate—“then stashing them in napkins for a poolside picnic lunch.” His tirade ended with a plea, recalls Henry Harteveldt, a travel-industry analyst at Atmosphere Research, who witnessed it: Could his exclusive property be exempted from the chain’s awards program, to protect the experience for paying guests? The corporate overlords’ answer was immediate: absolutely not.
The story argues that the bigger loyalty programs, which have hundreds of millions of members, are starting to look more like liabilities than loyalty engines. The argument is that the people redeeming points just “aren’t the same.” Per the story:
A senior luxury-hotel executive agreed. “It delivers, especially for a luxury hotel—in low season it’s exactly what you want.” But they acknowledged the downside. “Every luxury-hotel brand is trying to create a community of like-minded people, so it’s a challenge during high season. The people cashing in the points are just not the same.”
The story proposes a few potential solutions:
- Make redemptions far harder to attain, and the story mentions World of Hyatt’s recent announcement that top redemptions will increase in cost from 45,000 points per night to up to 75,000 points per night
- There’s also the claim that there’s a push across rewards programs to reserve elite benefits for those who spend a lot, citing Hilton Honors’ recent introduction of a new Diamond Reserve tier, with an $18,000 spending requirement
- The ultimate solution is to forgo points altogether, and it’s pointed out how some of the true top luxury brands out there, like Aman, Four Seasons, Mandarin Oriental, and Rosewood, all don’t have points programs
It’s kind of funny to look at the comments on Air Mail’s Instagram post about this, with a bunch of people saying “I couldn’t agree more.” Conveniently, those people are mostly travel agents, who of course don’t get a commission when people redeem points. I’d say they might not be unbiased here.
The argument against points programs is a bit backwards
Broadly speaking, I don’t completely disagree with the premise that association with a points program can impact the guest experience. A while back, I wrote about the concept of luxury hotel “points farms,” and before that, I wrote about mediocre hotels’ loyalty program delusions.
To me, the issue is that some hotels want it both ways. They want the bookings that come from being associated with a major loyalty program, but they also don’t want to dole out the perks, and view the members as freeloaders. That’s really not a very nice way to look at guests.
I won’t name names here, but I remember once meeting a hotel manager at a luxury property, and the topic of Bonvoy came up. I couldn’t believe how he spoke about the program — “Bonvoy members don’t know how to act, I wish we could get rid of them.” I was speechless, because to me, it kind of reflects the delusional arrogance of some in the hotel industry.
Here are the points I fundamentally disagree with in the story:
- The premise of claiming that guests redeeming points are staying for free is ignorant; points are literally always earned at an opportunity cost, whether the alternative is cash back through a credit card, or booking through some kind of online travel agency portal that could get you rewards
- Calling guests redeeming points freeloaders is even worse; this is literally what hotel groups market, so how can you hold it against guests when they redeem their points that the program awards them? Are people who redeem their Starbucks rewards for “free” drinks also freeloaders?
- It’s ridiculous to give one example of terrible behavior (wrapping up sandwiches from the breakfast buffet) and then to suggest that this is simply the norm among those redeeming points
- Ultimately hotel managers are working for the hotel owners, and if the hotel owners don’t think the economics of belonging to a group with a loyalty program maximizes their profitability, then they’re more than welcome to rebrand, and that’s fair enough
- Literally the only reason that people seek out properties belonging to Hilton, Marriott, etc., is because of the points programs; other than that, they’re essentially just online travel agencies, and let’s remember that the benefit of direct bookings is that the costs are way lower, given the high commissions that online travel agencies charge
- The story doesn’t seem to grasp that companies like Hilton and Marriott make much of their profits from their loyalty programs
As I view it, the issue is that many hotels associated with loyalty programs do choose to cut corners because they know they can get away with it, due to their loyal following, and people being on the points and status hamster wheel. But it seems unfair to blame guests for that.
Like I said, it’s absolutely true that many top hotels don’t have points programs, and I do think that contributes to them often providing a better experience. But that’s simply because they don’t have any crutch to lean on, and the only way they can get guests is by offering an amazing experience.
If that’s what hotel owners want, by all means don’t join a major hotel group with a points program. But to suggest that the problem with Hilton or Marriott is the points program makes no sense, since that’s literally the main selling point. If hotel owners aren’t happy with the economics of that, they can of course rebrand.
Bottom line
A story argues that points programs are ruining luxury hotels, and that the “freeloaders” using points don’t act properly at hotels, and managers are fed up. While there’s definitely some truth to points programs impacting the kind of experience hotels offer, it’s not fair to blame the actual guests who buy into the programs for the decisions of hotel owners.
Hilton and Marriott shouldn’t abolish their loyalty programs — that’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Instead, if hotels aren’t happy with the economics of belonging to a major program, they’re more than welcome to rebrand.
But this gets at the crux issue — so many hotel owners and managers want the business that these mega hotel groups offer, but don’t want the rewards aspect of it, when in reality, that’s what drives the business.
What’s your take on this story about luxury hotels and points?
For years we haven't found a Ritz-Carlton come close to St Regis for service or luxury. RC virtually cleaned house of all luxuries.
Their argument is not true because of the arrangement between the brand and the property. However, this said, the point programs and the big brands will not do away with them so quickly because the program and their credit card agreements are big money makers. The problem is two fold. The big brands themselves dilute the luxury factor. There's no way that a St Regis or Ritz can compare with a Penninsula, but then again...
Their argument is not true because of the arrangement between the brand and the property. However, this said, the point programs and the big brands will not do away with them so quickly because the program and their credit card agreements are big money makers. The problem is two fold. The big brands themselves dilute the luxury factor. There's no way that a St Regis or Ritz can compare with a Penninsula, but then again it also depends on the location because even within the very luxury smaller chains there are variations. Some people that stay in the luxury brand do things to dilute the experience (e.g. ordering Uber Eats or picking up take out).
There was an old lady who used to go through the conrad hong kong breakfast buffet and load food directly into her tote bag:). I told my staff friend. Hes like oh yea thats mrs so and sos (guest) maid. The wealthy family (arranged/purchased?) her for mrs so and so guest when she was a girl and they are together for ever.
No points involved. Just mrs old moneys maid stealing the buffet
The whole premise of this argument is false. The properties are reimbursed by the loyalty program for the points, so while it is free for the guest, Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, etc. are buying those redeemed points back from the property. The argument made by hotel managers, is more an opinion about perceived low-class freeloaders than it is an economic one.
There's a reason why the truly luxury hotels (e.g. Aman) don't have redemption-based programs, or why the Ritz-Carlton Millennia Singapore still hasn't opted in to be part of Bonvoy decades after it was grandfathered to be out of the program.
it's only a bad excuse for greedy corps to take the good parts of "loyalty" while blaming the customers when they try to extract value. If you are running luxury chains like Aman, Auberge, Peninsula, etc, then it makes sense as customer service is the key and people are choosing whether or not to buy the product for each and every stay. On the other hand, some chains try to sell business travelers the wet...
it's only a bad excuse for greedy corps to take the good parts of "loyalty" while blaming the customers when they try to extract value. If you are running luxury chains like Aman, Auberge, Peninsula, etc, then it makes sense as customer service is the key and people are choosing whether or not to buy the product for each and every stay. On the other hand, some chains try to sell business travelers the wet dream of luxury getaway in (throw away name) (inn / place / motel) for their choice then refuse to redeem the dream when the threshold is finally met. We call these people hypocrites.
We can afford to stay at luxury hotels and have in the past. By and large I don’t prefer them. While the amenities and hard product are sometimes superior I also find the experience often negatively impacted by other guests, who can be arrogant to borderline insufferable. Give me more ordinary travelers every day of the week. The older I get, the less impressed I am by lots of money and the attitude it enables.
I also find some of the staff in true luxury hotels to be obnoxious, possibly as a result of having to deal with toxic guests on a regular basis. Emotional labour is hard and can be unhealthy to those who have to perform it.
the writer of that articles opinion shouldnt really be shared as he's clearly a moron.
The best throw away joke in Succession is when Roman is discussing what it was like to be held hostage at gun point in the hotel and says “I've had worse experience at hotels; I once stayed at a Marriott.” Sums up what people who don’t use points think about the ‘loyalty’ game perfectly.
This is far more reflective of society in general than anything related to points and redemptions. But you gotta blame someone, I guess.
The reality is that you see it all at any luxury hotel. Points properties or not. Four Seasons included. The only properties where things seem to be somewhat more restrained are niche like Aman where people tend to be a bit more subdued given their surroundings being more intimate.
It's...
This is far more reflective of society in general than anything related to points and redemptions. But you gotta blame someone, I guess.
The reality is that you see it all at any luxury hotel. Points properties or not. Four Seasons included. The only properties where things seem to be somewhat more restrained are niche like Aman where people tend to be a bit more subdued given their surroundings being more intimate.
It's always been like this. But now we have "influencers" to add to the pot of craziness. Families with coolers or influencers doing photoshoots around you...what's the difference?
In all seriousness I think I'd prefer the families to the pox-ridden scumbag influencer whores.
I somewhat agree with this. I think its a combination of all of this. SUBs are too big and people who churn or participate in the hobby have too many points. And now with the internet and social media/youtube everyone knows how to do it. 10+ years ago the people engaged in the hobby was much less. It was like the Flyertalk regulars only. So it was still mainly actual frequent guests or road warriors...
I somewhat agree with this. I think its a combination of all of this. SUBs are too big and people who churn or participate in the hobby have too many points. And now with the internet and social media/youtube everyone knows how to do it. 10+ years ago the people engaged in the hobby was much less. It was like the Flyertalk regulars only. So it was still mainly actual frequent guests or road warriors staying in these top hotels. Today you have way too many people with enough points to stay in the Ritz, Waldorf, St. Regis level hotels of the world.
I think the genie can't be put back in the bottle. And while I don't like revenue based programs for myself, it might be the only solution to slow this down a little. This and more restrictions on SUBs and churn and reductions on too many bonus points and offers with very little to no stays required.
Ok to redeem points. Just tip everyone excessively well.
I have generally been treated very well with the loyalty programs. I'm a free agent. I go where I want. I showed up to a BonVoy hotel at 7 am and my gold status allowed me to check in immediately. I didn't even ask for it. I am under the assumption that these places value me as a customer since me having their cc is lucrative for them. I'm not going to act inappropriate anywhere....
I have generally been treated very well with the loyalty programs. I'm a free agent. I go where I want. I showed up to a BonVoy hotel at 7 am and my gold status allowed me to check in immediately. I didn't even ask for it. I am under the assumption that these places value me as a customer since me having their cc is lucrative for them. I'm not going to act inappropriate anywhere. If I were the hotel manager, I'd probably look the other way when the rare customers pack a sandwich for lunch. If I'm treated well, then the review on tripadvisor will reflect that. If not, I'll also let them know.
Anyone who travels with any frequency has witnessed (or participated in ) borderline behavior at any sort of 'free' buffet, at airport lounges, hotel lounges, breakfast buffets, etc. People will behave boorishly, with our without points. I am still a little traumatized by the sight of a couple loading up shopping bags full of the (meh) offerings at Hyatt Grand Central where I stayed (with points) last December. It was early morning, so they were...
Anyone who travels with any frequency has witnessed (or participated in ) borderline behavior at any sort of 'free' buffet, at airport lounges, hotel lounges, breakfast buffets, etc. People will behave boorishly, with our without points. I am still a little traumatized by the sight of a couple loading up shopping bags full of the (meh) offerings at Hyatt Grand Central where I stayed (with points) last December. It was early morning, so they were packing up their bags with pre-packaged Lender's bagels, cereal bowl, tea bags, fruit, and there was no one there to stop the pillage. They seemed a bit cowed by my stares of disbelief, but I did think about why someone with the means to stay at the hotel would want to loot the lounge for a bunch of uninspiring food.
About the points discourse: Ben and a couple other points writers (BK, for ex.) model excellent civil behavior in demonstrating how they usually enjoy a higher end travel experience, and actually pay in cash and hard-earned points for their experience. A couple other writers I read make me uneasy because it feels like their extreme points games will only kill the thing they love (they brag about their Hyatt redemptions so much I was not surprised when the changes were announced) And, it feels like the consumer willing to consider so many complicated points machinations and extreme card credit couponing will be so caught up in the game of using points currencies and leveraging loyalty status for an upgrade that they will present to staff as a compulsive, grasping, hoarder. Not always, but enough to notice?
There are a number of things which have created the issues for hotel owners/management at the top level of aspirational properties within loyalty programs over the past couple of years.
Firstly, the ease of which points have been to earn for anyone to then spend at outsized value. Especially, in the US with credit card offers.
Next up, over the last five years people have wanted to use points because of heavy demand meaning that...
There are a number of things which have created the issues for hotel owners/management at the top level of aspirational properties within loyalty programs over the past couple of years.
Firstly, the ease of which points have been to earn for anyone to then spend at outsized value. Especially, in the US with credit card offers.
Next up, over the last five years people have wanted to use points because of heavy demand meaning that hotels have increased cash values to a level that they are not necessarily meeting the capacity levels to reach full payment for point redemptions, this is more representative at the highly aspirational properties.
Furthermore, more and more people are reading blogs like this and learning faster as to what is the best strategy to earn and burn points to make luxury travel easier.
Finally, hotel groups in these schemes only care about the level of profits they earn from the customers who stay, and the hotel management companies paying for the franchise fees, plus the stock they have to purchase for the brand requirements. Not to the room rates charged, nor the lowering of quality required to necessitate the loss of revenue on each room when not full enough to meet the full economic cost of the rooms paid for on points.
Overall, it is no longer beneficial to be a part of a major hotel groups program if you feel you need to be more than 90% full every night of the year.
I should have added, that if this is not the case then shut the heck up as a hotel operator, and see it as a cost of business from the marketing budget.
Strip back to brand minimums and just get on with it.
Travel Agents should be the last to complain given that they either receive substantial discounts or get their stays comped as they are on "familiarization" visits.
If you are on the loyalty hamster wheel and a manager disparages you, suck it up. No one is holding a gun to your head. Vote with your pocket.
So many act as if they are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
There needs to be a conflict-of-interest disclosure when customers ask their TA which hotel is better. MO and Rosewood pay 15% as commission, while other actual luxury hotels pay 10%. Hard to take the TA's advice seriously when they're incentivized an addition 50% in earnings per dollar if they push Rosewood and MO.
Yes - there are travel agent commission farms too that can be over rated
Snobbery knows no bounds. Remember the Four Seasons Resort on the Big Island where the billionaire members were trying to kick out the mere multimillionaire members for being crass and insufficiently cultured and who were invading “their” space.
Rich or poor, a boor is a boor.
Once upon a time, loyalty programs drove loyalty. Then came the adjustments to points requirements, stinginess on points granted per stays, the reduction in perks and the incessant drive towards credit card qualifications. Hilton recently gave the biggest FU by downgrading Lifetime Diamond (which takes over 1000 nights, a set spend and ten years of Diamond status at a minimum to qualify) to their second best tier in favor of a high dollar spend. Hilton,...
Once upon a time, loyalty programs drove loyalty. Then came the adjustments to points requirements, stinginess on points granted per stays, the reduction in perks and the incessant drive towards credit card qualifications. Hilton recently gave the biggest FU by downgrading Lifetime Diamond (which takes over 1000 nights, a set spend and ten years of Diamond status at a minimum to qualify) to their second best tier in favor of a high dollar spend. Hilton, and to an extent Marriott, have driven me away from loyalty programs. I book boutique and small lux hotels and don't miss the big brands at all. Thanks Hilton!
I remember hearing from a Ritz Carlton doorman complain about how points guests don’t tip; all the while they don’t do their job unless someone pays them extra.
The hotel chains are to blame for many of the ills (airlines are in a similar situation). They made it so easy to gain points and reach the higher status levels that people have taken advantage of the situation. The chains and airlines are now backtracking and making it tougher to use the points ... they see they have opened the gates so are being stricter in cases to gain the higher levels.
To give my view. I agree with them more than I don't.
I wouldn't stay in these hotels if it wasn't for points.
I wouldn't spend $60 dollars on their breakfast and would bring smy own takeaway or sandwiches in.
I've taken stuff out of the fridge/minibar to fit store bought milk for cereal the next day, or juices for my son.
I've taken a coke can then bought it for...
To give my view. I agree with them more than I don't.
I wouldn't stay in these hotels if it wasn't for points.
I wouldn't spend $60 dollars on their breakfast and would bring smy own takeaway or sandwiches in.
I've taken stuff out of the fridge/minibar to fit store bought milk for cereal the next day, or juices for my son.
I've taken a coke can then bought it for a cheaper price later to replace their expensive one.
If breakfast is not included with my status or on booking I am not paying for it. I would rather eat at a nearby place for 1/4 off the price.
I know I am not spending any amount over the pts used and I also know I am not the customer they want. It's a mutual agreement I would say.
But the points are valuable to the hotel since they are compensated by the loyalty program for them.
Pretty sure it was the flood of points during covid and then the faux business owners constantly on the Ink train that ruined the high end hotels. Now that that's over for the most part along with the pending Hyatt devaluation and just devaluations in general it should revert more towards pre-covid clientele. The funny thing is I was looking at the Edit within the chase portal at the four seasons in Maui and it...
Pretty sure it was the flood of points during covid and then the faux business owners constantly on the Ink train that ruined the high end hotels. Now that that's over for the most part along with the pending Hyatt devaluation and just devaluations in general it should revert more towards pre-covid clientele. The funny thing is I was looking at the Edit within the chase portal at the four seasons in Maui and it is actually in the same points range as Andaz and I would have never looked at the FS. So points boost is actually doing some lifting combined with the credits. Actually making me rethinking the edit as hotel programs devalue.
Of course, many of the branded "luxury" hotels within the big chains are far from luxury. I doubt the majority of Ritz-Carlton properties would pass the brand standards for Peninsula or Raffles. Heck, I've seen Sheraton, Hyatt Regency and even Holiday Inn properties market themselves as "luxury." This is just reversed snobbery. Do these hotels want 30% occupancy rates or 75% occupancy rates? Moreover, it's not like these are "free" stays. The hotels are getting...
Of course, many of the branded "luxury" hotels within the big chains are far from luxury. I doubt the majority of Ritz-Carlton properties would pass the brand standards for Peninsula or Raffles. Heck, I've seen Sheraton, Hyatt Regency and even Holiday Inn properties market themselves as "luxury." This is just reversed snobbery. Do these hotels want 30% occupancy rates or 75% occupancy rates? Moreover, it's not like these are "free" stays. The hotels are getting paid money by the loyalty program. The vast majority of guests are having a drink at the bar, which is overpriced by 200%. And who's to say a guest paying cash isn't going to steal sandwiches from the buffet?
Yes. This is exactly what I was thinking. None of these hotels complaining about their buffet being taken advantage of could rebrand as an Aman or Mandarin Oriental. They simply aren't built for that - they aren't exclusive, and they are typically too big. So the chain hotels need to accept what they are. I don't mind paying Aman rates for an Aman experience. Because it's 100% completely different than a points hotel.
30 Years ago Ritz Carlton was unique and luxurious. Today in the US they are glorified Marriott's with often mediocre food and beverage. I was on the corporate board of Ritz in the early 90's and I have seen the down trend over the years.
Indeed
If you remove the whole "Ladies and Gentlemen" shtick and the nostalgia, your average Ritz-Carlton today is what a JW Marriott was 15 or 20 years ago. Likewise, your average JW Marriott is what a Marriott was 15 or 20 years ago.
I am not sexist, but the amount of female influencers with cameras are a major problem now at many luxury hotels. It destroys the atmosphere and what travel
Should be about.
Fine if lone women are on work trips. But for leisure, perhaps they should only be allowed to check in with a male partner or relative also present? Something needs to be done, as these young women in groups laughing loudly everywhere with...
I am not sexist, but the amount of female influencers with cameras are a major problem now at many luxury hotels. It destroys the atmosphere and what travel
Should be about.
Fine if lone women are on work trips. But for leisure, perhaps they should only be allowed to check in with a male partner or relative also present? Something needs to be done, as these young women in groups laughing loudly everywhere with selfie sticks are out of control and ruining what were calm and peaceful lounges and executive venues.
I’m not sexist, but women should not be allowed to vote. Or to drive. But please note that I’m not sexist. Thank you.
Not sexist but females should not be allowed to exists amongst us men.
To be honest, the people who I've heard complain most loudly about the ear-splitting cacophony of a table of women; particularly when they're drinking; have been the women in my life. Recently we were at a restaurant where a table of portly homsoexual gentlemen were dining with a very drunk woman, who was making a horrible noise. When they left, and took her out of there, the rest of the diners clapped. So by all...
To be honest, the people who I've heard complain most loudly about the ear-splitting cacophony of a table of women; particularly when they're drinking; have been the women in my life. Recently we were at a restaurant where a table of portly homsoexual gentlemen were dining with a very drunk woman, who was making a horrible noise. When they left, and took her out of there, the rest of the diners clapped. So by all means try to spin this perfectly valid observation as "misogyny", but the fact remains that tables of women, particularly when they're drinking, can be horrendously irritating.
And the type of men such women attract (if any).
I'll take $1000 for "things that never happened" Alex
Please tell me where a group of roving females ruined your actual luxury experience. Bachelorette parties are usually in Nashville or Austin which are not known as bastions of luxury hotel properties.
FFS people, stop feeding the bloody troll.
Yes, “Hank”, you most certainly are sexist, as well as xenophobic and stupid. Your lengthy track record of saying ignorant, bigoted crap on this site tells the story. You and that other freak ORD is my second home or whatever his name is should stay home and spare decent people your company.
Bruhhhhhh. Plenty of times I paid cash for a stay and took food a napkin. “CMON!!! KILL MEEEEE!!!”
Yet I don’t think over taken food when staying with points. Ha!
In the loyalty program, we customers are the products for the hotels, while Chains are the seller.
Aspirational awards are what drive member engagement with a program. My general understanding of the math is that hotels are reimbursed cost when the room would otherwise be empty, and average room rate when occupancy suggests it would otherwise have gone to a guest paying cash. Therefore, these aren’t freeloaders at all, because the property is literally being paid what the points-spending guest is worth.
Ultimately, the bigger issue is that larger programs are...
Aspirational awards are what drive member engagement with a program. My general understanding of the math is that hotels are reimbursed cost when the room would otherwise be empty, and average room rate when occupancy suggests it would otherwise have gone to a guest paying cash. Therefore, these aren’t freeloaders at all, because the property is literally being paid what the points-spending guest is worth.
Ultimately, the bigger issue is that larger programs are going to have more guests earning more points, just because the hotels are everywhere. You don’t have to work hard to be loyal to Marriott, and that’s why Bonvoy sucks for just about everyone involved except Marriott corporate. SPG was a better program, because loyalists had to go out of their way to stay at properties and earn points, so there were fewer guests with elite status, better recognition of that status, and fewer points floating around to fund redemptions at those aspirational properties.
Certain types of people make sandwiches at Holiday Inn breakfast and take them away in napkins. It’s not limited to high-end properties.
Indians & Indians & Indians. Oh add the Chinese for stuffing their purses & Bags!
Racist filth. too bad the "Report" button DOESN'T WORK
And people like you with a sign “ Help me, I’m sick” outside grocery stores.
I think the airline industry has shown exactly where the hotel loyalty industry can go.
Basic fares=just your hotel room. No other elite perks regardless of status.
Restrict reward seats for folks with co-branded credit card or certain amount of annual spend=reward nights at higher category hotels require co-branded CC or high annual spend.
It's already spelled out. It's just whether the big 3 hotel brands want to pull the trigger. They don't care...
I think the airline industry has shown exactly where the hotel loyalty industry can go.
Basic fares=just your hotel room. No other elite perks regardless of status.
Restrict reward seats for folks with co-branded credit card or certain amount of annual spend=reward nights at higher category hotels require co-branded CC or high annual spend.
It's already spelled out. It's just whether the big 3 hotel brands want to pull the trigger. They don't care about losing members. People are gonna stay at Marriott, Hilton and Hyatt regardless.
Are they? Other than one new year's eve when a friend was in town and I used the sofa bed at the local Delta so that we could go out until late, I can't even remember the last time I stayed in a Marriott hotel, and I don't think I have ever stayed at a Hyatt-affiliated property.
It's neither because I travel very little (maybe 40-50 nights per year on average, mostly for leisure)...
Are they? Other than one new year's eve when a friend was in town and I used the sofa bed at the local Delta so that we could go out until late, I can't even remember the last time I stayed in a Marriott hotel, and I don't think I have ever stayed at a Hyatt-affiliated property.
It's neither because I travel very little (maybe 40-50 nights per year on average, mostly for leisure) nor because I'm actively boycotting them, and I'm not even super loyal to one of their competitors (I've got ALL and GHA status but I don't exclusively stay in those chains).
Hyatt are completely absent from a lot of the places I visit and outrageously expensive in some others (e.g. Spain), while Marriott typically want to charge 5* prices for 3.5* hotels and I typically stay somewhere better for less money. I can only guess that they are able to get away with offering such poor value for money precisely because they get lots of trade due to a combination of brand recognition and the loyalty hamster wheel.
You're forgetting who makes up the bulk of hotels revenue. Solo business travelers and conferences. They book exclusively through the big 3. Businesses like consistency and safety.
@Alonzo , I literally authored my employer's travel and expenses policy. We're completely agnostic when it comes to hotel brands, the only requirement is that staff stay in an actual hotel as opposed to airbnbs etc.
Should've added that I benchmarked other large employers in our sector and again there wasn't anything about recommending particular chains. I'm sure some will have specific procurement arrangements, but I didn't see anything like 'you should make every effort to stay with one of the following brands/chains as we approve of their standards'.
For employers with 50,000+ employees, they stay at the big 3. Trust me when I say that. They are not booking primarily at independent hotels.
@Alonzo , that clearly is nonsense unless you're only talking about US employers. I'm familiar with a fair few European corporates that don't have such mandates, and I can't even imagine Indian and Chinese employers adopting them.
Basic fares == OTA or other promotional fares for hotel, it had been done for decades
The only time I stay at a Marriott, Hilton or Hyatt is when I find a bargain using points. When paying cash I always look for a high- end boutique property.
I agree with the AirMail author. We just spent four nights at what was a very pleasant hotel for Hyatt Globalists pre-COVID. Now, it is overrun with rude, disgusting pigs. The Grand Lounge is anything but Grand. We won't return to this hotel. EVER.
And this is not the first such experience that we have had with formerly nice chain hotels. The quality of the guests at these hotels has dramatically declined and because people...
I agree with the AirMail author. We just spent four nights at what was a very pleasant hotel for Hyatt Globalists pre-COVID. Now, it is overrun with rude, disgusting pigs. The Grand Lounge is anything but Grand. We won't return to this hotel. EVER.
And this is not the first such experience that we have had with formerly nice chain hotels. The quality of the guests at these hotels has dramatically declined and because people are so greedy, the quality of anything offered as a "free" perk has also declined dramatically. We are going to stay home more often and when we do travel, try some non-chain (or small, off-the-radar) chain options along the way.
Post-COVID anti-social degeneracy isn't limited to luxury hotels, nor can you pin any of it on awardees vs cash-paying customers. Rich people might have come out even worse in regards to acting like entitled pigs than your average budget traveler.
Your new choice to avoid hotels "overrun with rude, disgusting pigs" (points redeemers) and other "greedy" people will likely lead to hotels that operate cash-only and deliver a quieter more refined atmosphere with far fewer unrefinded people. It will also cost you a LOT more money.
Unfotunately, that is likely true. I am hoping that maybe GHA Discovery or some other such program can provide a surprise and excel over Hyatt, Hilton, Marriott. At least if we just stay home more, we can always count on our cat to be refined and polite! Heck, if we just stop traveling completely, perhaps we can just hire a servant. :)
@Gene , I don't think I've come across any guests like that staying with Accor and GHA. They're certainly not overrun with points redeemers, plus they're almost always cheaper than equivalent hotels that belong to the American chains.
Ive been using Points/Miles for over 20 years and it has driven using Hotels in Brands that I normally wouldn't frequent if Points weren't in the consideration. That is exactly the point of loyalty programs.
The more devaluations that keep coming, the more I am considering going "free agent" because boutique and non loyalty hotels just try harder than a lot of loyalty brands. Booking through Amex Fine Hotels gets much more choice and...
Ive been using Points/Miles for over 20 years and it has driven using Hotels in Brands that I normally wouldn't frequent if Points weren't in the consideration. That is exactly the point of loyalty programs.
The more devaluations that keep coming, the more I am considering going "free agent" because boutique and non loyalty hotels just try harder than a lot of loyalty brands. Booking through Amex Fine Hotels gets much more choice and options now.
I also suspect that if the Loyalty "freeloaders" didn't visit these hotels, those hotels would have to discount much more or have trouble being as profitable as they are. The reality is those hotels are being paid for these stays which is important for them and at the same time, those hotels have pulled back so many benefits that they are truly "luxury factories" instead.
My message to all reward programs, airlines and hotels, is: regardless of how you restrict your reward availability, once you offer a reward, behave like it is one. We followed your rules and did spend some money to get there.
I like Marriott program because in Asia (and occasionally in Europe), they have many good hotels and decent attitude. I mostly travel out of the main season and getting room with points was never a problem. Similar for Hyatt.
I place full blame on the reward programs, in particular those that flood the market with credit card points, or give away top tier status simply by holding one of the brand’s credit cards. These actions does not build loyalty. Heads in beds builds loyalty. So, hotel managers: I’m do not piss and moan about the guest who redeems points at your property and then tries to maximize their reward by doing whatever they can...
I place full blame on the reward programs, in particular those that flood the market with credit card points, or give away top tier status simply by holding one of the brand’s credit cards. These actions does not build loyalty. Heads in beds builds loyalty. So, hotel managers: I’m do not piss and moan about the guest who redeems points at your property and then tries to maximize their reward by doing whatever they can to minimize any additional cost. Frankly, the system you belong to encourages them to do exactly this.
"give away top tier status"? Bonvoy Brilliant, Hilton Aspire cost $600/yr!
And they're not top tier.
You act like that is a lot of money DenB (which basically supports the argument in this article). I travel a lot (and have for many years). I like to stay in nicer properties and do use points at times but also pay the going rate otherwise (or use something like Amex FHR, Chase The Edit, etc). However, regardless of how I pay for a 4 or 5 star hotel I act like I belong...
You act like that is a lot of money DenB (which basically supports the argument in this article). I travel a lot (and have for many years). I like to stay in nicer properties and do use points at times but also pay the going rate otherwise (or use something like Amex FHR, Chase The Edit, etc). However, regardless of how I pay for a 4 or 5 star hotel I act like I belong there. Often you see people that frankly don't belong in a place that nice as they clearly don't understand how to act. I'm betting the majority of these are those that used points to stay there. Sorry but, like it or not, the points and credit card industry has cheapened the stay at higher end properties when you have people that are appreciative of the level of luxury and others that book a Park Hyatt and act like they are staying in a Hyatt Place because that is all the know.
Last weekend, I redeemed three free nights at a luxury resort property and spent $3,000 on incidentals — roughly 50% of the cash price for the "free" room. I had a great experience and this was a "win win", but I learned of the property through the loyalty program and otherwise would have had no particular motivation to spend $3,000 there. There are thousands of other places vying for my attention.
My advice to fellow...
Last weekend, I redeemed three free nights at a luxury resort property and spent $3,000 on incidentals — roughly 50% of the cash price for the "free" room. I had a great experience and this was a "win win", but I learned of the property through the loyalty program and otherwise would have had no particular motivation to spend $3,000 there. There are thousands of other places vying for my attention.
My advice to fellow loyalty program members: before booking on points or for cash, check TripAdvisor, OMAAT reviews, FlyerTalk, and other sources to see how a specific property actually treats elite or other loyalty program members. If the recognition is poor, don't book that property at all. Vote with your feet. I tend to avoid Ritz Carlton, for example, for this reason even when paying cash.
If more members did this consistently, I suspect these hotel managers would sing a very different tune when their bookings plummet and the thousands in high-margin incidental revenue they took for granted suddenly disappear.
„ Literally the only reason that people seek out properties belonging to Hilton, Marriott, etc., is because of the points programs“
I disagree: it’s not like all guests are participating at a hotel program. There are guests that choose to stay at a Chain Hotel because of brand recognition (they saw an ad and recognize the name or they know that the hotel will meet some minimum requirement etc.)
We own a number of hotels across brands, mostly Marriott and Hyatt, and across the spectrum from a Hyatt Place to a resort Ritz.
Marriott provided 40% of our bookings and Hyatt about 25% across properties. The programs definitely bring in guests.
That being said, the average spend is about 60% less per week per guest that uses points. They’re also 65% of the complaints and manager escalations. We’ve also noticed that our...
We own a number of hotels across brands, mostly Marriott and Hyatt, and across the spectrum from a Hyatt Place to a resort Ritz.
Marriott provided 40% of our bookings and Hyatt about 25% across properties. The programs definitely bring in guests.
That being said, the average spend is about 60% less per week per guest that uses points. They’re also 65% of the complaints and manager escalations. We’ve also noticed that our long time cash paying guests have stopped coming during the high season as they’ve commented that the quality of the guests has become a Carnival cruise and spending 2k a night whilst around these folks doesn’t work for them.
There is little doubt the both the programs help hotel owners but also the points crowd is an expensive and frustrating customer. We’ve reduced staffing as we don’t see a need to have the same level of service as before.
Would appreciate if you would directly contact Ben to show him your numbers so he can verify you and what you are saying.
Not sure though if you’re allowed to do that.
Our investors won’t let us share financial results with bloggers but these numbers are shared with the appropriate brands.
It’s a tough balance. At the non resort properties, points are an incredible means of filling the rooms. The problems exist entirely at the higher end resorts.
The choices are either become a points factory or reduce services. Our portfolio is aggressively moving towards LSH for this reason.
It’s also why you’re seeing...
Our investors won’t let us share financial results with bloggers but these numbers are shared with the appropriate brands.
It’s a tough balance. At the non resort properties, points are an incredible means of filling the rooms. The problems exist entirely at the higher end resorts.
The choices are either become a points factory or reduce services. Our portfolio is aggressively moving towards LSH for this reason.
It’s also why you’re seeing more high end luxury brands, non points, explode in recent years. In a K shaped economy there is tremendous demand for
luxury but not via the same channels as the past.
LSH - SLH (Small Luxury Hotels)?
Would appreciate if you would directly contact Ben to show him your numbers so he can verify you and what you are saying.
Not sure though if you’re allowed to do that.
Your numbers are interesting. Marriott International says 72% of bookings across all properties come from Bonvoy members. Hyatt says 45% of its bookings are from World of Hyatt members. Your numbers suggest otherwise, at least at your properties. Are your properties franchised and operated by a third-party or do you use the chains for management? I note that both Marriott and Hyatt claim higher RevPAR at non-franchised properties. At Marriott, it's $147.09 vs. $128.23. Hyatt...
Your numbers are interesting. Marriott International says 72% of bookings across all properties come from Bonvoy members. Hyatt says 45% of its bookings are from World of Hyatt members. Your numbers suggest otherwise, at least at your properties. Are your properties franchised and operated by a third-party or do you use the chains for management? I note that both Marriott and Hyatt claim higher RevPAR at non-franchised properties. At Marriott, it's $147.09 vs. $128.23. Hyatt doesn't break RevPAR out between franchised and managed properties but Hyatt manages more properties than it franchises or licenses, unlike Marriott. Hyatt says non-resorts have a RevPAR of $142 while resorts have $244.
We use 3rd party management firms across the portfolio. We also note and differentiate between guests that have come to us via a rewards program ex. Marriott/Bonvoy vs being a member of the program. The difference largely comes down to TAs booking for a Bonvoy client, 3rd party portals , and return guests.
The numbers tend to be higher from the hotel Brands on LSH as people end up searching via the Brand for...
We use 3rd party management firms across the portfolio. We also note and differentiate between guests that have come to us via a rewards program ex. Marriott/Bonvoy vs being a member of the program. The difference largely comes down to TAs booking for a Bonvoy client, 3rd party portals , and return guests.
The numbers tend to be higher from the hotel Brands on LSH as people end up searching via the Brand for a location vs the resorts that we also see a lot of visits via our socials.
You should use corporate to manage. You would make more money. If you're going to franchise and use a third-party operator then you might as well be an independent hotel. I hope you don't use Aimbridge!
We’ve used them to manage in the past. You make more but spend a lot more, so bottom line is less. Also much harder to sell and flip it, they’re typically in much worse shape if run by the Brands.
Our goal is to buy distressed, improve and exit for profit. Some holds are 2-3 others as long 5-7.
Might be the difference between "members" and "points bookings"
I would assume on direct bookings 100% of them are from "members" even on cash rates, and the excess are OTA bookings on Expedia or Chase or whatever
Ah yes, the hotel owner LARP. Put up or shut up; I’m pretty sure your “investors” don’t have stipulations about talking to “bloggers.” This is the typical “ew poors are gross and entitled” kind of stuff and the classism is tiresome.
All of the award travelers I know are polite, humble, and considerate. Your narrative stinks.
This is about what I would have expected numbers wise vs my anecdotal observations - esp the management escalation / complaint mix
I don't think the truly independent need to be all that more expensive either to deliver a quality luxury experience vs the 'luxury' in the mega points brands
Would love to know the hotels with these managers bitching about points users, so I can make sure not to give them my business in the future. I usually pay cash rates for hotels but the attitude is enough to know that I want to see them fail.
It's amazing how much loyalty programs drive business. I'm going on a biz. trip in a few days, and one of my work colleagues said "I'm a Marriott person, so we need to stay at a Marriott so I can get points."
Two things jumped out at me:
1. How sad that this person is enamoured with Bonvoy, and
2. I was reminded that I just don't pay attention anymore to hotel status...
It's amazing how much loyalty programs drive business. I'm going on a biz. trip in a few days, and one of my work colleagues said "I'm a Marriott person, so we need to stay at a Marriott so I can get points."
Two things jumped out at me:
1. How sad that this person is enamoured with Bonvoy, and
2. I was reminded that I just don't pay attention anymore to hotel status or points. While it used to really matter for me, I'm at the point now where I simply don't care; when I choose where to stay, it's pretty much the non-points properties - Pen, MO, FS, etc. and book with my agent that can book MO Fans, Virtuoso, etc. etc. etc. And if it's a chain, same thing (Hyatt Privé and the like). I still *get* points I've earned, and I do use them, but the programs no longer matter to me. I guess I'm just too old now.
A ‘Marriott’ person… oof. Sounds like a ‘peach.’
I don't know if I would say they are "ruining" luxury hotels and I can certainly understand why people would leverage the points game to enjoy experiences that would be typically out of their budgets. That being said, it's gotten pretty crazy whether we are talking about luxury hotels or premium seating on flights. As I've gotten little older and reached a level of financial wealth, I've started to actually appreciate devaluations and/or programs that...
I don't know if I would say they are "ruining" luxury hotels and I can certainly understand why people would leverage the points game to enjoy experiences that would be typically out of their budgets. That being said, it's gotten pretty crazy whether we are talking about luxury hotels or premium seating on flights. As I've gotten little older and reached a level of financial wealth, I've started to actually appreciate devaluations and/or programs that greatly restrict reward space.
The US specifically has such a big points business now that a really significant share of travelers are in that game, and I think that's the true central dynamic at this point - specific perks just aren't as specific when there's that many eligible for them, and everything changes when that's the case.
Rugpull mentality. “Now that I got mine, you can’t have yours.”
Of course you don’t want young people with less wealth to compete with you!
Oh honey, there's no danger of that.