Frontier Flight Narrowly Avoids “Catastrophic” Deicing Incident

I am a flight attendant, had similar incident on night flight.
At deicing area near taxi way our aircraft was deiced, Captain made PA prepare for take off. My jump seat located forward of over wing exit, using flashlight, I noticed ice on left wing and frost build up on right wing. Notified cockpit. Informed captain I previously worked on the ramp and had deiced aircraft in the past.
First officer walked back to confirm.
Aircraft deicing truck sprayed glycol second time.
Again captain made PA prepare for take off. Once again I called cockpit informing captain left wing still had ice. Aircraft wings deiced third time. Captain called me to confirm deicing satisfactory, I replied yes. Flight continued.
I have confidence in all departments of airline industry, however , it is up to all employees to do there part to ensure we are all safe.

I add my considered and experiential opinion: The flight crew and specifically the captain is responsible for all aspects of the flight INCLUDING visually inspecting the de-ice procedure before, during and after the de-ice operation is complete. As a well worn airline PIC and SIC of over 30 years in the saddle, we always looked and in most cases if able, went outside to inspect the job done by the de-ice crew. At the very least, I sent the SIC or F/E back to visually inspect the wings and outboard nacelles of the B727's and DC9's we were flying.

As a private pilot and deicing operator/driver at BDL (Bradley airport, Windsor Locks, CT) we spray HOT Type I for frost at the gates on overnight aircraft before they're loaded for the first flight approximately 1-2 hours before their departures in the wee hours of the morning. Snow, ice, freezing rain, sleet and freezing fog are sprayed with HOT Type I in the deice pad adjacent to rwy 6 allowing for a quick departure after being sprayed with Type I and occasionally Type 4 if the precipitation is still falling. Like others have said, the cockpit view of the wings is limited if not impossible. Certainly the freight operators don't have any windows on the fuselage to be able to look out let alone being able to get in the back with all the containers there, so they're not checking for contaminants. And I promise you flight crews on passenger carrying aircraft aren't coming out of the secure cockpit to wander down the aisle to have a looksy out the emergency row exit to check the wings. They all trust the word from the driver of the deicing truck on the radio that "Your aircraft and engines have been inspected and found clean". Shame on that deicing operator/company.

I don't buy the excuses and also don't agree that the flight deck crew wasn't partially at fault. Even though the aircraft was allegedly deiced at a remote (non-gate) location, it's the pilots' responsibility to ensure the aircraft is safe for flight operations. In the good old days I recall vividly that pilots would typically walk back in to the passenger cabin and visually inspect deiced wings. I suspect that modern flight deck security protocols have trumped the act of pilots conducting a post-deicing visual inspection. As we all now agree, tragedy was barely averted in this case.

A lot of uninformed comments here about what is feasible for pilots to do when de-iced.

It does seem, though, that adding a visual check after de-icing and before takeoff, possibly by a flight attendant, would add some level of extra protection. Of course you can't 100% guarantee by looking out the window, but it would catch something like this. It could be the break in the accident chain that saves lives. Reading Levi's comment above, it appears that's exactly what happened (except a dead heading pilot vs. flight attendant).

I am a private pilot who tends to sit in exit row window seats and I absolutely look out over the wing after de-icing just for my own peace of mind.

@Juillian Kuti

I think you're misunderstanding the situation. Yes, pilots do visually inspect an aircraft at the gate before a flight. However, at most airports (including BNA), deicing is not done at the gate. Deicing is done on a pad just before the runway. The advantage of this procedure is to minimize the time between when an aircraft is deiced and departure.

The downside is the pilot cannot visually inspect the aircraft after a deicing. The pilot has to rely on the deicers in this situation.

Deicing ops is all about trust, if everyone perform his job right, in this case the deice crew, they were supposed to first removed the snow with type 1 and then apply a type 4 to protect it before take off. it is their responsibility to check if deice procedures have been well follow and that all contamination is removed, when they give the post contamination check to the crew, it is their responsibility, the crew had to trust the deice crew as there is no way for them to check physically what's going on around the wings and tail section. That's what deicing ops is about a total trust between the deicers and the crew, if this case it is obvious that the deice crew failed.
the crew responsibility is to ensure the holdover time is meet prior take off. The only people to blame is the deice crew and the deice coordinator who is supposed to supervise the ops by standing in front of the A/C in view of the crew. That's what i know about deice ops...

I don’t think that jobs in an industry that hold the lives of people in their hands should be outsourced! As a person that works for an airline I have some skin in the game to make sure the cargo/other doors are closed, the aircraft is free from contaminants, the de icing fluid freeze point is within limits, my crew trained and my truck/ storage tanks are full. I check every plane as if my own family is on board. Stop sourcing jobs to save the small amount of money that you think you are saving. A disaster would have been much more costly monetarily but most importantly in human lives.

I currently work in the airline industry and what others have posted above is harsh and for the most part a skewed perception. Yes, the captain is responsible for the safety of the flight, however you also have to understand that there are many components that go into this. The captain is not a mechanic and would be unable to make as thorough of an inspection as a mechanic is trained to do. The captain reviews the maintenance log before the flight and can see what the mechanics were up to. Sure, the captain does a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft, however that is meant to check major parts such as the landing gear, wings, flaps, etc. It is during this pre-flight inspection that the captain will observe any contamination and based on their observations make the decision for what kind of deicing/anti-icing they will request. Deicing/anti-icing is typically performed while the aircraft is under its own power. Depending on specific airline procedures, either the mechanic will communicate with the cockpit crew or a deicing coordinator will. They are responsible for informing the captain that the deicing/anti-icing procedure was performed, the aircraft is clear of contamination, and they provide the times of application of fluid so the crew is able to calculate what their holdover time is.

I will make an analogy perhaps that will explain better... In the US the TSA is responsible for checking passengers as well as their luggage and making sure that no prohibited items are present. Although the captain is responsible for the safety of their flight, you don’t see the captain checking each and every single luggage and every passenger to make sure that there is nothing prohibited coming onto the aircraft. They trust that the TSA did their job and make a decision based on that information. Similarly in this instance, inspecting the aircraft post deicing is neither practical nor possible in many cases, so they trust that the deicing was performed correctly and go on the information they have been provided.

I prefer when the mechanic communicates with the cockpit crew during the deicing procedure, however this is also not typically possible when deicing is performed away from the gate area. I say this because the mechanic is typically an airline employee and is more inclined to report that deicing was performed incorrectly as they are separate from the deicing team. It’s just another set of eyes and another “check” to ensure proper procedure is followed.

@Hodor

I've seen some barmy comments on blog but yours beats every one of them - hands down.

Just exactly what are you suggesting of pre-flight check. The crew ensures every wheel nut is tight, every door seal intact, every fan blade inspected with an ultra violet instrument prior to departure.

At some point everyone has to rely on the word of another, and documentation goes a long way to proving that. The maintenance logs, together with overall checks provide this information.

I assume that we will never see you on a plane because checks are insufficient prior to take off.

And by the way, how do you know your fuel gauge is correct prior to embarking upon a car journey?

As a de-icer, I can say based on the information provided, this was entirely the fault and negligence of the deice crew. The pilots did everything right. The FA went beyond their responsibility to look out the window and call in the situation. Good for the FA; saved everyone on board. The deicer is responsible to ensure there are no contaminants (snow or ice) on the plane. There is not time or any safe way for the pilot to check the plane; the engines are already running when the anti-ice fluid is applied, and the plane must take off within minutes after application. The pilot trusts the de-ice team when they say the plane is free of contaminants.

For the people outraged that the pilots don’t inspect the plane post deicing, you’re out of your element. You realize that type of deicing is done on the way to the runway with engines running. Sure, we’ll just shut down the plane out there on the taxiway and open the cabin door, blow the slide and hop down for a closer look. Do you realize how many hundreds of aspects of every flight you have ever been on rely on the pilots taking someone’s word for something? We don’t inspect every component on the plane. We don’t inflate the tires. We don’t load the cargo. We don’t close the panels below after they’ve loaded everything. We rely on the tower to clear us for takeoff in lousy weather when we can’t see the entire runway is clear. We fly in the clouds and do what ATC says when we can’t see. We believe the flight attendants when they say everyone is ready in the back. The same people who want to blame a pilot here would be wanking nonstop at the slightest inconvenience any of these things would cause if the pilots had to check them all.

Dick, you are clueless and need to stay in your lane, No other way around it.

We don’t do a type 1 (snow ice removal) and type 4 protective coat that sheds any accumulated snow on take off while parked at the gate. Type 4 is time sensitive and to have it applied at the gate would be pointless as the hold over time for the solution would expire 9 out of 10 times prior to reaching the runway.

There are times when the de-Ice procedure is done at the gate of frozen precipitation occurred overnight and the weather is not clear. It helps speed up the process for us to get the plane boarded and on our way. Other times we can push back and have the deice procedure done 50 feet back from our parking spot, or you have mega facilities like Denver that have a battle station for deice.

Unless a holdover time is going to be exceeded, a “wing check” by the pilots is not common or required under most circumstances. Past practice has relied on deice doing their job and we also do a “nose check” to get an idea for how much frozen precip has fallen to help us judge our condition prior to takeoff.

There is a lot of trust but verify pilots have to deal with. We aren’t going to be out their verifying maintenance has done their job correctly, because we verify our Maintenance Release Document is valid and trust the work was done right.

Despite what you may have been "assured" it is the pilot's responsibility to ensure that the plane they are flying is safe and properly prepared for every flight. Every time. Even if it's cold out. No exceptions. Period.

Yes, there's blame to go around. The de-ice crew screwed up bigtime. But it's the pilot's responsibility to check that. Without exception. Should the pilot depend on the flight attendants to verify there's enough fuel on board to reach their destination? Ask passengers if they noticed whether or not the tires looked OK?

Pilot in command should be terminated. With great power comes great responsibility. Take a quick walk around the damn airplane before closing the door and firing up. It's too much of a bother to take a look at the wings and see if there's a foot of snow on them? Then it's time to find a different line of work, because the person up front in the left seat was just along for the ride, s/he was not pilot in command.

Deicing is one of the most heavily regulated things that a ground handling company does - from daily fluid checks to scripted handoffs with the crew. I am surprised this could have happened (aside from the really poor culture in contract ground handling companies). The place I worked at had a strict schedule for holding on to deicing documentation - always getting rid of it as soon as it was not required, as deicing penalties were very expensive (ironically they got a $50k fine shortly after I left)

If I recall correctly, when I did deicing, we would stop in between type 1 and type 4 and give the holdover briefing (I mostly did type 1 for defrost purposes). We would always physically inspect the wing with our hands to ensure the surface was smooth and was a required part of the briefing to the pilot at the end of deicing.

Unfortunately, this type of situation probably happens more than you can imagine.

I was personally involved with such a situation over 30 years ago. I was on a Piedmont Airlines flight from BWI to (I think) ROC. I was seated in an exit row window seat. After we pushed back from the gate and started to taxi to the runway, I saw something that I didn't like. There was already ice buildup on the wing. I immediately pushed my call button, an FA arrived, she saw what I was pointing to, alerted the flight deck, and we immediately returned to the gate for a complete deicing which of course delayed the flight by about 45 minutes IIRC. The flight crew did immediately thank me!