VASAviation is an awesome YouTube channel that shares some interesting air traffic control situations, with both ATC audio and a recreation of what happened. The channel published an interesting video today, that I think many avgeeks will enjoy.
Continue reading: Sun Country Pilots Screw Up LAX Departure, Leading To Close Call
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
the aviation system is being pushed near the breaking point on a regular basis.
Just as is often the case, 2 of the 3 parties are doing the right thing which prevents disaster.
hard to know the experience or seniority of the SY pilots but there are alot of less-senior pilots in the cockpits as well as in ATC facilities today. Technology needs to help bridge the gap.
FABRA? That’s the old LOOP(7) departure. Been used since the profile descent days. Not sure how they messed that up since the north and south complex have different tower frequencies. If they read it back correctly the.n it’s on the pilots. Where was TCAS here for the traffic alert.
PS: the controller should have used ‘break’ if he meant the second part of his transmission for another flight.
FABRA isn't the SID but is instead a waypoint along the SID. They were probably on the ORCKA5 SID based on their destination
As a pilot, you never want to receive the call to copy a phone number to ATC. This flight crew will be asked questions about their deviation and issued a "brasher". Sun Country flight management will be notified and the Company will have to take some kind of corrective action.
Issuing the Brasher Notification, for even apparently minor or “no harm-no foul” occurrences, enables Flight Standards to establish a productive conversation with the airman regarding a situation that may have posed a risk to the NAS. When engaging an airman that is calling the facility pursuant to a Brasher Notification, remain neutral and stick to the facts. Do not provide your personal opinion, and do not minimize the situation or suggest or comment on the potential outcome of a Flight Standards investigation. This detached and professional approach is the best way we can support Flight Standards in conducting an investigation that leads to a positive, safety-enhancing conclusion. Remember, issuing the Brasher Notification is not about fault. It’s about information collection leading to risk reduction in a non-punitive environment.
Feels like a computer could handle this far more efficiently, with humans just stepping in if there's a malfunction. You're reliant on waiting for a human at the other end to hear some instructions and then manually adjust the plane? Too slow.
Ah yes the Loop departures! Flew the DC-9 for Midwest Express into LAX in the mid 90s. When reading back the clearance we would almost always request the "extended loop" because we were always too heavy to make the 10,000 ft crossing of the LAX VORTAC.
ATC was great in that they always let us extend!
Great times!!
Comments like this put me at risk for rolling my eyes so hard I tear a muscle. I hope one day your extremely dense skull is able to process that commercial pilots in the US with thousands of hours, type ratings, and yearly testing are no more or less safe based on their gender or skin color.
If the back of the plane isn’t filled with 100% white dudes, why should the flight deck be?
A few things to note:
1. There is no "FABRA departure" out of LAX. Fabra is a waypoint that you fly to. Tower will tell you the first fix on takeoff to make sure you have the right one programed for the departure runway.
2. This is most likely the OSHNN 1 RNAV departure that has a set route that you fly.
3. Without other instructions from tower such as fly runway heading before takeoff the pilots will be making a left turn after intersection NAANC which is 10 miles from the runway.
You're aware that Sun Country and Southwest are different airlines? Or did you just want to post idiocy.
The... what departure? You mean the ORCKA?
They probably habitually armed LNAV and didn't recognize the error.
The whole problem in this case is almost certainly because they turned on the computer/autopilot. The predecessor to this departure procedure, the LOOP, had the exact same problem. Rare in real life, but in flight sim environments like Vatsim and pilotedge you get a lot of simmers who aren't paying attention and turn the autopilot on at 400 feet, and the computer turns left direct the first waypoint on the departure procedure.
Way back in the day when it was the LOOP you got an even better mistake when autopilot goes on, the FMS would turn right direct LAX, and clip into the arrival stream over SMO. The refreshed ORCKA departures added a new waypoint KLIPR south of the airport so if someone turns autopilot on before the first waypoint, in this case FABRE, at least it forces a left turn.
Been a few situations lately where the question of TCAS comes up. Personally had one a couple years back where I had to issue similar alerts, and was surprised the aircraft involved didn't get an R.A.
As I see it, it goes to show that automation isn't yet close to perfection. There may be risk to having humans in control, but we're long from ready to pass it on to programmed computers or other AI/algorithmic based systems.
Agreed that his voice is quiet nice. But when I listen to ATC transmissions, I realize just how skilled most everyone in commercial aviation is. Yes, I'm aware there are a few bad apples. However, these people master the mechanics of flight, can understand ATC radio (ooof!), maintain visual awareness AND most importantly seem to know 10,000 acronyms!! Unbelievable & damn impressive.
For the record the LAX runways are parallel however like CDG with four runways one side ofthe field is 24L and R and the other is 25L and R to avoid confusion
you cant tell that these people are just here to troll? it it second only to the tim dunn trolls for this site and comes up in every post
Last time I checked Sun Country has never had an accident or major incident since 1983 when it was founded by a handful of ex Braniff people. TCAS would have saved the day if all else failed.
The four runways at LAX are parallel at 242 degrees and 062 degrees magnetic so arrivals and relatives stay separated. It can be assumed that cross winds will affect departing flights similarly, but maybe not exactly. A long time from now, the variation will change and the runway numbers and headings will need to be changed.
Sun Country is one of the lowest paying airlines with regards to pilot salaries. Why on earth would an experienced pilot with an unblemished training and flight record go to work for Sun Country. If you think Sun Country Airlines hires the cream of the pilot cropp I’d like to sell you a bridge in Manhattan.
Maybe read the article a little better: is it not alarming that Ben mentioned 3 different Southwest Airlines incidents near the end as reference to recent incidents overall? Also not to mention another one in Tampa almost crashed so read before you speak!!!
My husband was originally scheduled to return home that day on that flight! I'm glad his plans changed and stayed in LA a little longer...we had complete faith in Sun Country, until now
Actually, SY428 was on the ORCKA5 departure from 24R which is essentially to fly runway heading 251 until instructed to begin the long looping left turn back to KLIPR, which is what the controller explained.
AC776 was on the OSHNN1.