The topic of whether or not babies and young kids should be allowed in first or business class tends to be controversial. I recently shared our experience flying across the Atlantic with our son, and a couple of people expressed outrage at the thought of traveling with young kids in premium cabins.
Continue reading: Should Babies Be Allowed In First Class? Of Course…
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
I, for one, would love to see the OMAAT Toddler review of SQ Premium Economy!
In all seriousness, last time I had a crying baby on a redeye was 8 years ago, but pax up front who the FA threatened w/ a diversion to offload? Once a year LOL
Best approach is JAL, which identifies babies in seat map, so other passengers can make informed decisions.
1. Even you draw the line at international first class, so it’s reasonable for someone to draw the line at long haul biz (like me). Especially overnight flights.
2. I can understand the need [want] to travel with a child, but they don’t need to be in a lounge, like the otherwise whisper calm JAL First lounge two Sundays ago (f-you, whoever you were).
3. Flying private isn’t a feasible option for 99.99999% of people, so it’s irrelevant to bring up.
4. Think of it like this - a crying baby is whatever at an Applebees, but what about at a restaurant that costs 6-10x that? It’s reasonable to make that comparison here.
5. Why does Miles have to be so cute?
People WITH babies always land on the pro side - d’uh!; they’re determined to force their suffering upon others. The baby did not request and usually did not have any need to travel, but the selfish parent(s) still feel it’s necessary to bring it on the plane in support of their lifestyle. Many flights are ruined by selfish parents and their screaming offspring who just couldn’t stay home.
I completely disagree with your assessment which is likely what prompted you write about this. You forgot to mention a few things such as common sense, decency, appropriateness, etc. I'm not talking about toddlers. My concern is with babies who are still too young to understand when to be quiet.
You mention the guy in business on an AM flight . He was an adult. The crew can talk with him, tell him to lower his voice, etc. You can't do that with 3 month old baby who is screaming for ten hours.
I argue you in fact are paying for the "environment" when you book business class. I'm not paying a $5k premium just for better food and a wider seat. I'm paying for a more relaxing experience so I can rest, get some sleep and be ready to go to the office as soon as I land. That's why I fly business-not to have a screaming baby next to me.
Should fly on private jets if that's your concern. As if a screaming baby in economy seat won't still be heard in your sacred oasis up front
Lap children should be banned in first and business class. Lap children are allowed in economy because parents are presumably poor. If you have enough money for business class, you need to stop putting your kid at risk. They must not be lap children but pay for their seat. There should also be a surcharge on those children because the parent cannot sit next to them. The surcharge should be up to age 5. After 5, kids can sit without being an animal though age 8 is easier for them to sit quietly.
My take is more practical: when you’re with a toddler or infant, they require parental assistance. It’s not an option. Playing, talking, feeding, using the lavatory. It’s not an option being in first or business on most long-haul floght because of the physical barrier between seats that makes it incredibly challenging for the parent to be attentive to the needs of the child. Aside from domestic F, I wouldn’t recommend it.
The only business class my son took was a red eye on Hawaiian’s A330. We did this purposely because the seats are right next to each other and easy to access one another.
Babies should not be allowed in first class. Once a child is old enough to communicate on a reasonable level, can more-or-less feed themselves and can use the toilet on their own then they should absolutely be allowed up front.
Just because some adults act like idiots in first class does not mean we should make it worse by including babies.
“If you don’t like the violence in your inner city just move to the Hamptons”
What an absolutely absurd position.
If babies didn’t belong in business or first airlines wouldn’t let them book. Simplest explanation. There are also very legitimate reasons to bring kids on a plane other than the adults wanting to travel and not having the ability to leave kids at home. My daughter got to meet her moms bone marrow donor overseas which was very special.
What is the practical outcome of such an article? It seems Gary-esque in character . . . calculated to inflame opinionated readers . . . producing banter and clicks. Such articles have crept into your content and it's very disappointing. Ben, it's your blog and you'll get your clicks and my departure as a reader won't mean anything. But, serious hobbyists will note that you sold out . . . and became VFTW 2.
On the contrary when my kid was 16 months old and we were traveling to India found sharing a qatar qsuite very pleasant as a "lap" kid with the closed door and flat bed wide enough for both of us
I suspect this is reason many saver level award seats in business/first such as qatar/etihad is nowadays only released for 2 seats, where more used to be opened pre-covid, as a way to limit families with kids from redeeming together
Even as a person who is probably overly sensitive to the annoyances of baby noises, the arguments set forth in this post strike me as obviously correct. Adults are *very* often as disruptive and noisy, the sound will travel anyway (can attest from many an experience), and the bottom line overall is that you are buying a seat, not a sound environment - and really, you should be bringing your own sound environment in the form of QCIIs or similar.
Obviously I'd rather have no baby in the cabin vs. a baby there, but by the same token I'd rather have an empty cabin except for me vs. a full cabin including me. This is the real world, if you want an immaculate environment then fly private; otherwise, it's your responsibility to prepare appropriately.
I was born deaf. Many have looked at me as having a disability in life, which sometimes it is...but not on the airplane. I feel lucky to not have to hear everything that goes on on the plane, in FC or Y!
Most people fly in business class in order to be able to work in relative comfort and to arrive at their destination well-rested (hence the name “BUSINESS class”).
The cabin should remain a working-friendly environment instead of a family-friendly environment. Obviously I don’t mind leisure travellers flying in premium cabins but they should adapt and respect the people trying to work or rest
I was born deaf, and most of my life people have looked at me as having a terrible disability...which sometimes it has been. But, on the airplane is not one of those times. I am mostly grateful I never have to hear all the things that go on on on the plane!
These posts that Ben are making are really getting annoying. Whether to mask or not to mask and whether babies should be in first class or not. It’s all inflammatory chatter. People are going to do what they want, so what’s the point of the discussion? Get back to airline news and travel blogs, please. I don’t care that Ben has a kid or likes to wear a mask.
i'm not one to judge, but if i did not enjoy a person's insight on travel matters, i might simply decide not to read their travel blog, rather than moan about it in their comments - but hey, to each their own!
There’s a big difference between this and VFTW. VFTW is full of random clickbait about stupid nonsense. This is a thoughtful, well written article explaining a common argument and why he disagrees. Opinionated articles don’t have to be the worthless clickbait we see so much of in modern media. This is the sharing of ideas and opinions. This is what journalism is supposed to be like.
Some airlines try to discourage it.
Qatar restricts redeeming Avios for premium cabin (can workaround via BA), Air France charges almost the full adult fare for a lap infant in La Premiere, and ZIP Air bans children below 6 completely from its business class.
Stongly agree with points 3-5 here.
Sure... fly private!
1. Yeah, until everyone turns around around and points out emissions.
And
2. Might as well be saying "Want some peace on your flight? Have you tried being richer?"
The prestige of Business class/First Class... the way most of society views them... that creates inherent expectations, with peace and relaxation being part of them.
So while yes, *technically* you can't expect those things, there's an obvious reason most people do.
Should we make efforts to cater to that inherent expectation? That's the real question.
I am waiting for Ben to release the webpage stats this time and I am guessing he just might be in the lead this time.
They all run businesses. Ben's strategy has broadened and it appears he is getting more traffic compared to what OMAAT used to get and also compared to other sites.
As with everything posted and other users, you always have the option not to read.
Babies are fine.
It's the irresponsible f** up parents that is the problem.
They would eventually f** up raising the child to be another f***** up adult.
Oh and the kid would grow up getting a pet giraffe with fake service animal certification.
And the cycle continues.
@JoePro - who do you mean by "we" [make efforts]? The airline? That's pretty clear. They don't even live up to the expectation of an on-time flight and offer you no compensation if they fail to live up to that expectation. So regardless of what society views business class or really any part of the travel experience, the airlines have made it clear that basically *nothing* can be expected -- not even that you will actually travel; there is no obligation if your flight is cancelled aside from refunding your ticket.
If we're talking about airlines living up to expectations they create, there are far, far more important expectations they should be addressing before getting down to babies being on board.
American companies are built on using technicalities to screw their customers. Following the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it (and sometimes violating the letter too) is a competitive advantage, not something they frown upon. Unless you want to change corporate culture, don't be surprised that this attitude permeates down to all of us. Heck, this entire blog is dedicated to violating the spirit of loyalty programs and using technicalities to score deals that airlines would otherwise rather not give (what type of loyalty do you have if you transfer points from a credit card to an FF program of an airline you never fly, in order to book a partner award on an entirely different airline you also don't ever fly with paid cash tickets? Isn't that violating the spirit and expectations of why airlines give you FF miles?)
@T.Davis - yes, the flight attendants can talk to the adult, and frequently the adult will ignore or escalate and start shouting at the flight attendant. We've seen this happen often enough these days that flight attendants are scared to talk to a disruptive adult. I imagine when that happens, you chalk it up as a bad flight that happens every so often and that you're bound to experience if you travel enough, and then get on with things. Why can't you view the occasional baby crying in the same manner?
@Sel, D. - violence is against the law, and a city *does* set the expectation that they will reduce / control / prosecute offenders, with a police force dedicated to that task. Airlines provide no such guarantees or expectations. The more proper analogy is if you live in Seattle and complain about the rain. The answer is move somewhere sunny like LA or something, not to expect the mayor to ban rain.
I do fly First or Business in order to get a better rest on long haul flights. Also, (certainly on BA) under 2s don’t require their own seat - I’ve experienced an 11 hour flight with two parents each bringing a child under 2 completely disturb the First cabin on an overnight flight.
If hotels can have “Adults-Only” premium sections why can’t airlines (if it makes commercial sense of course?)
Kudos Ben on writing IMHO a thoughtful opinion piece on this matter. I don't know if anyone is going to be swayed by anything said, but I pretty much fully agree: parents have an explicit right to purchase any ticket they wish, but they also have a responsibility to try to keep their kids calm and non-disruptive. Most of the time they manage that, but sometimes they don't either because they don't put in enough effort, or because the baby simply can't be consoled. Either way, when that happens, it's just one of a 100 reasons why a flight can be lousy that we all deal with and singling out this specific reason for a lousy flight is not just unfair but pointless (since airlines aren't changing their policies anytime soon).
FWIW, I have two young kids but I never minded kids on board even decades ago when I was far from having a family. And also, so far, when traveling with my children, I've always purchased economy tickets because even domestic business class is a bit of a pain with the big armrests that aren't moveable. I'd rather get a full row of economy, raise up the armrests, and turn it into one couch for all of us. When we start taking them on international flights, I plan to do the same because what with all the private suites, doors, privacy barriers, etc. it's very difficult to actually sit together with your children.
So even as someone who doesn't plan to travel with their children in first/biz class until they're old enough to be largely independent, I still support a parent's right to sit there with their babies if it makes sense for them. I just don't get the hate for this particular potential source of disruption amongst all the other potential sources of disruption that we deal with on an everyday basis and somehow tolerate.
"All of this says nothing of the otherwise poorly behaved people we sometimes see in premium cabins, who behave like toddlers. For that matter, maybe some American agents can go around to all the people in the Miami Admirals Club conducting phone calls using speakerphone, and immediately downgrade them to economy?"
Agree with you on children but also is there like a petition I can sign for this? Because I'd be 100000% all for that.
For what it's worth...
Scoot (a Singaporean LCC) has a "ScootInSilence" section where kids under 12 aren't allowed.
I'd say that ScootInSilence is a bit on the restrictive side, as it's mainly the babies (I'd say under 4 or so) who cry from pain in their ears caused by cabin pressure changes.
I'd be perfectly fine with more airlines designating baby-free zones.
In business class, fine. In F, not as a lap child and only if paying for an additional seat.
Problem solved.
Speaking exclusively of the USA, I can count on one hand the number of times in the past two years I’ve been even vaguely inconvenienced by an infant in any cabin - two, with crying or kicking. The number of times I’ve been inconvenienced by disrespectful adults - at least 10. People who are drunk, don’t use headphones, don’t respect others’ personal space, whack me in the head with bags trying to heft them into the overhead lockers, and so on.
The only time in my ~500 flights a baby has significantly impacted my travel in any way, a toddler suddenly escaped his mother’s arms in the window seat and flopped over to my aisle seat (middle was empty, in Y) and knocked my cranberry juice all over my lap. The mother had previously been doing a very good job of keeping the kid entertained, he just suddenly went bananas. She “tackled” the kid, apologized profusely, got him re-entertained, and insisted on giving me $20 for dry cleaning. I’d sit next to that kid and his mom again in a heartbeat before the guy or gal who had one too many in the lounge and can’t control their voice.
I think for long-haul flights the children should be old enough that they don’t need direct immediate supervision if it’s not easily possible given the seat configuration. For US domestic first that’s not a concern.
I don’t care where kids are on the plane. I just care if we get there safely.
@Jimmy....that's the point of this post. Perhaps it should be more regulated as to cabin. Bring your kids on the plane. There is a perfectly fine economy cabin available for them.
Purchase any ticket they wish?
Does that include a redemption in a premium cabin with a lap child? That's where I draw the line. Perhaps the entire focus of this should not be about children in premium cabins but rather whether the concept of a lap child is unfairly impeding on everyone else and should be eliminated.
I can tell an idiot who has his sound on for calls etc to use headphones. I can't tell a baby to shut up. That's the difference.
Over the years I feel like being one of Ben’s friends with all the personal stories he shares on his blog even I never met him. I like this personal approach.
Have we just uncovered the reason for Emirates’ insistence on maintaining an outdated 2-3-2 configuration on its 777s for so many years? 😉
Although annoying and my position has changed in as much as I agree with Ben you can’t ban children from a cabin as that same rule would have to apply to adults and children with special needs who may verbal and animated at times, it’s a slippery slope putting restrictions on those who are young and or need more assistance.
People are going to take their babies with them, regardless of the cabin. babies are going to cry, regardless of the cabin. It sucks if that happens on an overnight flight, but oh well.
I only get frustrated when babies/kids are on flights and their parents just ignore them when the babies/kids are crying and/or having a meltdown. I, and others I believe, do feel more forgiving when we see parents trying to calm down and take care of their kids/babies.
Of course babies should be allowed in first class, as long as they're tucked away in the overhead bins.
This. We've all seen desperate mothers trying to console screaming babies on a red-eye - trust me, she's more stressed and exhausted than you are! And when we all get off the plane, she still has that handful to deal with....while you swan off to your quiet hotel room.
I love this perspective! Babies in first class can bring a different vibe to the experience. It’s great to see a more inclusive attitude toward families traveling together. Everyone deserves to enjoy their journey, regardless of age. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Simple math. Better to annoy 8 passengers in First than to annoy 200 in coach.
Well said @Ben.
Put simply - if you don’t want to fly with babies (or anyone else) in First, then fly private.
If you can’t afford private, re-evaluate your life goals and life choices.
Premium cabin amenities are for the parents, not for the baby. So the question is “are parents being selfish when they purchase a premium cabin for themselves when it’s likely their baby is going to disturb everyone else who purchased premium cabin seats?” The answer is “of course!” Should it be disallowed. I’d vote no. I’ve traveled with a baby before in domestic first, and we kept him entertained and quiet the entire flight. That wasn’t his first flight, though, so we knew how he’d likely behave on the plane. If you don’t know that, I think you’re being as selfish as anyone who acts disruptively in a premium cabin, whether it’s a barking dog or an idiot who props his bare feet on the cabin wall. I don’t think you get a pass because it’s a baby. While the baby doesn’t understand, there was adult choice involved. It was the parents’ choice when they booked the premium cabin.
Would much rather sit next to a baby or a pet in First Class than next to a Zionist extremist or a KHaren
I'm referring to we as a society.
Obviously we haven't collectively decided to do anything before, so I certainly don't see anything changing.
But if we did take some kind of action, maybe it would look like sociatal shaming of parents bringing their kids on business class. Maybe it would look like some type of consumer action... airlines respond to demand, after all.
I'm not suggesting we do anything or not, or that anything will change.
We started traveling with our daughter when she was just over 3 months old. She's 3 now and she's been in both business and economy class. I can count on two fingers the amount of times we've had to deal with a full blown meltdown out of the 40-odd flights she's been on. Each time was contributed to sleep. The first time was on a flight home after a long haul and a long layover in ORD. It was a late flight home (only option after the long haul) and she was clearly overtired. The second time was on a long haul ORD-FRA. She just didn't get enough sleep as the flight is just not long enough and was clearly still tired. We've overcome that now and fly west to LAX to increase the long haul flight time and the last time LAX-LHR was just long enough for her to get a good amount of sleep. This coming Xmas, we're flying LAX- MUC which is even longer, so she will be able to get a full nights sleep with that one.
No one under the age of 18 and no one under an annual income of $100000 should be allowed on a plane.
we just did the 6 month old on Singapore Airlines. It was horrible for us. She did ok, but there were a few breakdowns and my wife took her to the restroom until she gave out on crying. We were super conscious and honestly the trip was horrible. But it was an 8 and 13 hour two leg trip. We are dreading going back to the states. But I flew 15 years in busienss and first before my kid and I hated babies. I do think airlines long haul should have a few flights per week that are no babies in the cabin. this allows the super sensitive baby haters to take those flights. Domestic is nothing. like the article said, it is just a bigger seat and nothing special. It's all about the long haul $5000-10k tickets.
I love how people here seem to think getting a FC ticket permits them to exist in a world without babies.
It's a friggin FC ticket. It doesn't entitle you to every last wish or dream you want. If you don't like airlines that permit this thing, vote with your money. Otherwise, bugger off with your poorly placed entitlement.
And I'm saying this a childless middle aged guy with a good amount of disposable income. Would I prefer no babies? Sure. But I understand that's not how it works and if anything have a little sympathy for the parents that have to manage all that.
I'd like to see every human have their own seat (i.e., no lap kids). I'd prefer no kids in F/J, but I'd also prefer no free upgrades to F/J and no coffee being served (hate the smell). Oh, and no non-service animals even in a carrier. I really think the first point should be a rule.
Nope, it's called first domestically. Original business class was today's premium economy. Now, J isn't business, it's delta one, unite polaris, etc. The cabin is a nicer place for you to do business, but it's not about just business travellers. BTW, on a domestic flight, I suspect the majority of people in F who paid for are leisure with the upgraded being the business travellers.
@Jimmy: it's a matter of opinion whether they belong or not.
Airlines let them up there because it's profitable and doesn't decrease demand. As to the societal consensus as to whether they belong or not... it's clearly divided.
Glad to hear your kid will soon be slumming it in international premium economy. Oh, the horror!
It is really about us a parents paying attention and focusing on parenting in the sky which takes a good amount of prep and dedication. My son (now 21) had hit every continent (save Antarctica) by age 7 - started flying when he was 4 month (and ya...front of the plane) . He is a seasoned flyer because just like teaching him the ABCs we taught him to be a flyer and when he was 'too young' to reason with we came prepared with toys and snacks and entertainment and more importantly gave him our attention - tuning into him as if he were at home. So now he is at home in the skies and in the world. It is, in essence a gift.
Got to call you out on your antidote about a guy, 2 rows ahead of you that you could hear throughout an AeroMexico flight. You cannot possibly hear a passenger snore from 2 rows front, back or wherever over the sounds of those Pratt & Whitney or GE jet engines. Come on, "Give me a Break, Man".
Regarding the kid in Business or First, Please, NO!
I only travel International BC or FC once or twice a year...for pleasure. Usually, I have been saving for several months. Flying IFC (or even IBC) is still a thrill for me and my wife. Do I want to hear a screaming baby for 8 hours? No. Should they be banned? No. Will I let the parents know, that they are ruining my vacation, by not attending to their child? Oh Hell yes!
If you travel all the time (in FC or BC) for work; I get it. It's no big deal to you. But for some of us...it's still a rare treat.
I'm not an ASS*))_. I get that the baby might have an issue with taking off or landing. The ears must hurt a bit. But if you think your "right" to FC means you are allowed to treat me to hours of screaming...think again. BE a parent. Understand that we did not decide to have a child and bring him on the flight. You did. Be a responsible parent. I understand its a baby....but not my baby..not my problem. Yes...I have a child. Yes..I've taken her on many flights. She didn't fly BC or FC until she was old enough to behave. JMHO.
I flew from ORD to MUN last November in United Polaris class. There was a baby (9’ish months old) in the row directly in front of me. The baby cried for almost the entire flight. I understand that sometimes babies just can’t be soothed but there was zero concern in the part of the parents and one grandparent. At one point, the FA told them they would have to get up and walk the baby as she was being so loud. Had they actually been actively trying to soothe her then I would say it was overkill but they were not. The parents were taking turns watching a movie with headphones on while the other held the crying baby. The grandmother did nothing.
I had hoped to get some sleep on my overnight flight but alas got about zero.
Did not know that United had a flight with Polaris overnight from Chicago (ORD) to Maturin (MUN) in Venezuela.
Michael: It's absolutely OK for you to read some other travel blog. Go now... you won't be missed.
The cabin is irrelevant. The issue is respect.
You can bring a child to a shared space (e.g., restaurant, movie, or live performance). If they are noisy or disruptive, you can quickly and easily remove them out of respect for the other paying customers.
Planes are a shared space. If your child is noisy or disruptive, you obviously cannot remove them. If you cannot guarantee your child’s behavior (and when they are very young, you absolutely cannot) you are being disrespectful to fellow passengers.
No one can blame a child for acting like a child. But they can blame a parent for bringing that child on a plane. You are responsible for making your child unhappy, for making yourselves uncomfortable, and for disturbing others.
I'm sure they meant MUC, as most readers would have made that assumption, except you.
International premium economy is a perfect compromise when traveling with a baby / toddler IMO. My daughter is 3 now (so finally can binge Disney on a flight!), but 1.5 - 2.5 yo was sooooo hard. I felt too self conscious at that age to have her in BC because I knew she’d make so much noise and need to move around, but 12-16 hours of eco is just blehhhh. We got her the JetKids by Stokke suitcase and it worked wonderfully turning the eco premium seat into a bed for her. She slept for at least 8-9 hours each flight. Highly recommend that!
Incorrect, we flew with an infant at 3m and 6m in Qatar J. Seen plenty of kids under 12 in J.
It's not the babies or toddlers right through to teenagers that's the issue it's parents who have absolutely no idea how to raise children of any age to show respect others .Good parents know how to soothe a baby how to occupy toddlers and how to bring up kids with respect for others and no it's not by ," I am your friend parenting " as for what's been paid babies up to a certain age are free so yes other passengers do have a right to peace and relaxation
I think it will just evolve, first class will become a joke like most economy on western airlines. People will then just fly private and that will be that. I am not going to pay so you I can hear your kid cry, it's not like it's a $1000 but many thousands of dollars.
It's unfair for the child, being at 40,000ft takes a toll on an adult, just imagine a child. This is why people shouldn't fly with babies.
Children under the age of 5 should not be allowed on any flight, regardless of cabin!
They cannot handle the changes in pressurisation and the circulating air cannot be good for them. Can the lungs of very small children (under 2) handle long haul or very humid locations.