Ryanair 737 Misses Berlin Curfew By Seconds, Forced To Divert

Flights from the Canaries ALWAYS leave late. Stupid of RyanAir to schedule one of their longest flights into an airport that has a curfew.

Seems inane to not have some form of a buffer of like 5 to 10 minutes for situations like this, as they were preparing to land on runway and had the gears down. I love Germans, their overadherence to rules can be a bit much at times tho in a situation like this.

I agree with you. Make it a 15 min buffer and charge a penalty if the airline lands between 12am and 12:15am. Their choice to pay the penalty or divert. I don't think airlines would stretch their landing times because of the buffer but it would allow non sense situations like this to not happen.

The compensation is just 400€. This is the maximum compensation to be paid for flights within the European Union. This is an exception for the distance bands clearly written in the EU regulation 261/2004.

@ Dom -- Whoops, my mistake, thank you, fixing that now.

Since the article does not say WHY the plane was delayed, I'm not convinced passengers are eligible for a €600 financial compensation. If the delay built up because of bad weather earlier that day, there is probably no right for compensation.

Yeah Berlin. Boo Ryan. They had to know what they were doing intentionally. Yeah Berlin for sticking to the rules!

Honestly I’m pretty skeptical of curfews generally, and I think the US, where they are quite rare, seems to work fine without them. As a general matter the airport was there when people moved in…

They won’t get EU261. Ryanair will cite “ATC instructions beyond their control”.

So after almost a decade of delays leading to the opening of BER they’ve got a real cheek to not allow an aircraft to land by just a few seconds!

the plane had to be cleared to land by ATC in order for it to be that close to the airport.

The problem seems to be that ATC either doesn't coordinate its activities with the airport which presumably imposes the curfew.

At some US airports, you can land but you pay a fine. That is what happened at LGB with B6

regardless of how the pieces work, Ryanair knew the rules and procedures or should have and made the decision to try - but did not succeed.

This self-sabotaging, leftist sh*thole of a country will drown in its self-proclaimed moral superiority.

Untrue. There is ECJ judicature on this, airline can't just keep adding one delay on another infinitely as way to get out of paying compensation. It is deemed to be within control of the airline to have sufficient reserves or sufficiently long turn arounds. If your flight is affected by weather, you are not eligible, but if some other flight in the morning was and the delay then cascaded, it is generally eligible for compensation.

Could they not have landed from the south west instead of flying past Berlin and approach from north east? That would have saved them more than the seconds….

What is wrong with ATC?!

This is why no one likes Germans. Not looking at the overall picture. Micro focused.

There posts the voice of reason and knowledge.
What is the point of Ben requesting courtesy and common sense when people post without consideration?

The only sensible thing would be to allow the planed to land if it was cleared by ATC. Otherwise they should have denied the landing beforehand. From an environmental and noise pollution standpoint, the diversion just makes the impact worse.

With Berlin being Berlin, this is not surprising.

I hope you're proud of this comment, Jim. Is it helpful, constructive, and respectful? I'll let you do some introspection...
Of course, this makes no sense whatsoever (not to me, anyway). But I'm not sure this warrants such a broad-brush derogatory comment.

I’ve always had issues with how curfews/closures are handled at some airports, if a flight is cleared for the approach they should be given an opportunity to land with no violation. A go around for a curfew is an unnecessary risk to those onboard. I ASAP’d SAN a few years ago for this in the same situation for runway construction. A hard closure at midnight even if flight is on short final. We made it in with minutes to spare. The airports should coordinate with ATC beyond the tower to decide the last flight as the curfew/closure time approaches (pun intended)

Don't know which is worse, this one or JL331 that missed curfew at Fukuoka and had to return to Haneda, but in this case passengers got a hotel and flight the next morning.

I loathe Ryanair and wish them the worst but I feel very sorry the passengers with this - Ben you mention EU621, Ryanair are awful and rarely payout and despite the legislation it is up to individual Civil Aviation Authorities enforce and few do. It's why they can do what they like as there is no repecurssions. So I doubt the passengers will get anything. But I suppose most people know how awful they are and they chose to fly with them...

As a general matter so was the curfew

Well, what you don't say is, that the grace period is actually 11pm to midnight. There are already only a few flights scheduled to arrive after 11pm. And Ryanair does know that.

Make it a 20,000 euro per minute fine. That would give them 4 additional minutes before it would presumably cost more than the EU261 obligation. (without factoring in fuel). The fine should make up for any overtime or anything else paid to ATC.
For how much Germans like to climate shame, it is asinine to to deny landing to stick to an airline for a rule violation.
And yes, I loathe Ryanair too, but they were being reasonable on this flight.

In the first instance, unless it’s a technical delay they aren’t necessarily entitled to compensation.

As the aircraft was on final approach and I hope this is escalated to the local authorities. They absolutely could have and should have let it land. The curfew for exceptions. We may joke about Mike O’Leary however in his defense what he sometimes does is also to the benefit of his competitors. I have also sat near him on a competitor’s flight and he was very pleasant to the crew and was chatting with the captain during disembarkation.

I’ve flown with them several times, pleasant staff both in flight and on the ground and I had delay comp paid within 8 days. During my delay caused by atc, the crew kept everyone updated and we even boarded via an air bridge. Also sat next to dead heading crew to Italy and had a chat about the industry.

You can have positive and negative experiences with all airlines and given the number of passengers they fly, over 197 million last year, the negatives are a tiny fraction

The curfew times are publicly available: The airport closes to scheduled arrivals at 11:30p; the midnight hard stop provides a 30 minute grace period for delayed flights. The flight in question is scheduled to land at 10:50p, 40 minutes before the grace period starts. Reasonable? With that margin of 70 minutes and a 108 minutes-late departure, Ryanair wagered that they could make up the 38 minutes in the air. They lost that wager, and that's on them.

That’s untrue. Maybe your experience however not the majority. My claim was paid out within a few days. I have many colleagues and friends who have had a similar experience. Another friend was forced to buy a new ticket following a weather delay. Heavy fog on that day, so definitely true. No comp however they did settle the difference in price of eur400 with 2 weeks.

They carry almost 200 million passengers annually so the number complaining or claiming is actually very small.

Even if it was one million, which it certainly isn’t, that’s 0.5 percent. The U.K. ombudsman received about 640.

The volume of complaints is artificially higher due to social media and other channels which simply did not exist years ago.

There is so much crap online and it will only get worse due to President Muskrat and his lapdog trump, encourage people to be abusive.

Not saying their perfect and nor is any airline, however try making a complaint to most other companies. The airline industry is more regulated than most.

There already is a buffer. Arrivals must be scheduled to land no later than 11:30p. There is a 30 minute grace period for delayed flights.

It’s completely true though and very German. They never look at the bigger picture and I deal with them daily. They didn’t compensate all the airlines for the disruptions caused by fiasco that was Brandenburg airport with flights rescheduled then having to be rescheduled again.

Tschüss !

Ben,

1. If the scheduled departure is 4:50p and actual departure was 6:32p that is a delay of 108 minutes, not "just under 90 minutes".

2. I think it is worth pointing out that the publicly posted regulations state that all arrivals must be scheduled to land by 11:30p. Effectively there is already a 30 minute grace period for delayed flights. In reality the flight didn't miss the limit by seconds but by over 30 minutes. With the flight scheduled to arrive just 40 minutes before the limit and the grace period giving an additional 30 minutes for a total of 70 minutes of wiggle room (again, on a 108 minute delay), this is entirely on Ryanair. If you choose to gamble, do so with the understanding that you may lose.

Whoops, that should be "102 minutes-late" and "32 minutes in the air".

Embarrassingly enough that should be 102 minutes delay, not 108. Still over 90 minutes though!

This was great for the environment!

Should've burned $5000 more fuel to haul ass and get there on time, to save $60000 in penalties they now have to pay.

Tim, exactly, just land anyway and pay a fine. It is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

It is true, not just us - we know a lot of people who have struggled to get anything. They're awful. Also most people don't have the energy to fight them and pursue them to the end with ADR etc which even if it goes in your favour is never enforced and they still don't pay.

(also your assertions that just because so many people fly with them, that they're not bad is also drawing silly conclusions. People fly them cos they're cheap, although frequently they're not even cheap, but basically offer the only direct connection. No one loves them, and the negative experiences are not a "tiny fraction")

USA?

You’re just naive and entitled to your opinion however as I alluded, if one million people complain / 200 million it’s a tiny fraction. That’s my point
You say no one which is a sweeping generalisation. So you imply that every single customer, and you included myself, doesn’t like them.

You are not a mouthpiece for all their customers as much as that moron that’s about to become president ( muskrat) believes he represents the entire population.

And if you live in the US there’s no compensation comp for delays and cancellations.

Most of flight cancellations I've have in recent years were due to ATC unable to handle a lot of flights, over France especially. Been denied all my EU261 claims based on this.

Surprisingly it seems that the states themselves receive no penalty for not honoring their ATC duties. That could be another layer of EU261: if delay is due to ATC, airline have to pay the compensation and obtain reparation from the country.

Should motivate France into managing their ATC issue.

BTW, anyone knows if like for trains they have to commit to a certain number of slots of capacity ? How does capacity planning of overflights work ?

Nah. The USA is a self-sabotaging fascist sh*thole of a country that's drowning itself in its self-proclaimed moral superiority.

I suspect this was not the first time, and BER decided to teach Ryanair a lesson.

It's not that easy. Airliners already cruise pretty close to their maximum speed and they don't have control over what routing and sequencing they'll get from ATC. There is some headroom between typical cruise and maximum, but it's not a lot and they were likely already using it here. It's not just a matter of "you can burn some more fuel to fly faster," but rather a matter of "if you fly faster, you will exceed the design limits of the aircraft and shock waves will form in places that should not have shock waves."

No one has any love for them except for you it seems. Also as I said so many people using them isn't an endorsement - people use them because they're cheap and increasingly because they have little other choice. I'm not a mouthpiece for all their customers but I do have a handle and gage of overall opinion - and it is not good. They treat customers with utter contempt, why would people love a company that literally abuses and degrades them despite giving them business? And yes I live in the UK so know what I am talking about with regards to Ryanair. And even if I was American, if you fly with them in Europe where they mostly fly within you would be still entitled to compensation.

Landing direction is determined by the weather and current airport operations. Unless the winds are calm, you usually don't have a choice (and, even when they are, you typically still don't absent an emergency because ATC will typically be operating the runways in one direction at a time in order to keep traffic flowing reasonably.)

They would have to be cleared for the approach, but not necessarily cleared to land. The Approach controller likely cleared them for the approach, then Tower refused the landing clearance due to airport closed.

Agreed. Rather than having landing curfews with fines for violation, there should instead be a fine for moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.

It is set at 3 flights max, following the extraordinary circumstances. Since flights to Canaries are long, Ryanair can still blame early afternoon fog in Berlin.

There is a buffer. The curfew is 11.30pm. They allow up to 30 minutes grace for delays.

Once you realise that Ryanair were 32 minutes outside curfew, BER's actions seem quite reasonable. RyanAir should never have tried to land there to start with.

In such a case ATC gives clearance at the pilot’s discretion. If he believes he can make in time he can try it, but landing after the curfew comes with a hefty fine, 50k or so. The curfew is court ordered that leaves the airport no wiggle room. Ryanair knew the risk, took the gamble and lost. Not the first airline to try it and won’t be the last.

Please stop discussing anything related to“a few seconds“! BER has regular operations between 06:00 and 23:00 with very limited slots available for 05:00-06:00 and 23:00-23:30 granted only for „quiet“ aircraft. At night, the last half hour is never available for scheduled landings, but is the „buffer“ so many posters are demanding.
So there is a buffer. Why demand another one?

The rest of the story is not because Germans are well organised and like sticking to the rules but rather the other way round, because Berlin is just being Berlin.
And most likely it’s also not ATC being inconsistent but having been overridden by some superior administrative body.

There is a very prominent case whereby the German National Soccer Team was not allowed to take off to Qatar due to missing the curfew by a few minutes. In that case the plane had already taxied to the beginning of the runway.
ATC would have let them go, but some Brandenburg authority said no.
Again this was minutes after the hard stop, so the buffers had already been exhausted.

ATC does not make these borderline decisions and in the latter case not even the holy soccer team was granted an exception.

The airport is not in Berlin but in Brandenburg so Brandenburg‘s authorities are responsible for enforcing the curfew, not Berlin‘s!

“Was NOT granted an exception”

Set to 3 flights max based on what?

The problem is that in this particular case the decision caused more noise, not less, so the system clearly isn't serving its purpose and is somewhat counterproductive. It would make sense to allow landing if the plane is already on final by the time curfew kicks on.

Yep, rules are rules…

As far as ATC is concerned, it is not their job to withhold clearances for landings or takeoffs that violate a curfew.
The controller will clear you and at best mention the current time as a friendly reminder. The rest is up to the pilot(s).
ATC is an Air Traffic Services provider not a noise monitor.

Monitoring noise and curfew is typically done by the airport noise monitoring office and they will send noise complaints to the airline, issue fines, or even pass the case further up for serious violations.

Some airport are stricter than others, especially those in close proximity to densely populated areas take noise very seriously (e.g. ZRH, FRA, DUS, BRU).

Sometimes this can border on the ridiculous, like when an early morning arrival is on final approach and it is just a few minutes before the curfew expires. If the flight would touch down two minutes before the morning curfew expires, the pilots are legally required to go around.

You can work out for yourself what makes more noise, a go-around, followed by another approach and landing a few minutes later, or a landing two minutes early.

But rules are rules…

B.

B.

The statement that "if you fly faster, you will exceed the design limits of the aircraft and shock waves will form in places that should not have shock waves" is simply not true.

An Airbus A330 typically cruises just under Mach 0.82. The Maximum Mach Number (MMO) is 0.86.
There are warnings and safeguards that help the crew stay below the maximum speed (VMO) or Mach Number (MMO). On a lot of airplanes

For other airplanes it is similar (e.g. A320 Cruise Mach 0.78, MMO MMO 0.82; Boeing 777 Mach 0.84 cruise, Airbus A350 Mach 0.85 cruise, both aircraft MMO 0.89).

There is considerably leeway to speed up (I have done it many times when the need arose), but it is uneconomical as fuel burn ‘hits the roof’, but all you can save is maybe 1 min per flight hour. More savings are to be had from ATC shortcuts because at the time close to the start of night curfews there is usually little traffic and ATC may be able to offer shortcuts.

B.

Because Japan Airlines isn't nasty and contemptuous of its own customers.

They were so close to land before midnight (12am).

I had an experience in Labuan Bajo, Indonesia, in September 2014, where the 3:50 PM Garuda Indonesia flight to Bali was scheduled for only ten minutes before the airport closed at 4:00 PM. The aircraft arrived a bit late, and right when we were getting to board, we were told "the flight is canceled. The airport is closed" and the airline put us up in a hotel for the night. A lot of passengers missed their connections (many on separate tickets). Thankfully, I had given myself a day layover in Bali to make my next flight.

What seems absurd to me is that the only airport operating in the capital of Europe’s largest economy has a curfew… If they had another airport, it would be OK, but, as the only one in the city, this curfew requirement strikes me as very strange…

Why would anyone fly with Ryan air in this case. They probably didn’t even have enough time to check for maintenance, and clearly, rushing isn’t going to help make things more safe. They’re a ticketing time bomb and I’m surprised they haven’t had any major incidents yet

Yeah Berlin. Boo Ryan. They had to know what they were doing intentionally. Yeah Berlin for sticking to the rules!

I agree with you. Make it a 15 min buffer and charge a penalty if the airline lands between 12am and 12:15am. Their choice to pay the penalty or divert. I don't think airlines would stretch their landing times because of the buffer but it would allow non sense situations like this to not happen.

There already is a buffer. Arrivals must be scheduled to land no later than 11:30p. There is a 30 minute grace period for delayed flights.

@ Dom -- Whoops, my mistake, thank you, fixing that now.

Untrue. There is ECJ judicature on this, airline can't just keep adding one delay on another infinitely as way to get out of paying compensation. It is deemed to be within control of the airline to have sufficient reserves or sufficiently long turn arounds. If your flight is affected by weather, you are not eligible, but if some other flight in the morning was and the delay then cascaded, it is generally eligible for compensation.

As a general matter so was the curfew

Tim, exactly, just land anyway and pay a fine. It is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I hope you're proud of this comment, Jim. Is it helpful, constructive, and respectful? I'll let you do some introspection...
Of course, this makes no sense whatsoever (not to me, anyway). But I'm not sure this warrants such a broad-brush derogatory comment.

That’s untrue. Maybe your experience however not the majority. My claim was paid out within a few days. I have many colleagues and friends who have had a similar experience. Another friend was forced to buy a new ticket following a weather delay. Heavy fog on that day, so definitely true. No comp however they did settle the difference in price of eur400 with 2 weeks.

They carry almost 200 million passengers annually so the number complaining or claiming is actually very small.

Even if it was one million, which it certainly isn’t, that’s 0.5 percent. The U.K. ombudsman received about 640.

The volume of complaints is artificially higher due to social media and other channels which simply did not exist years ago.

There is so much crap online and it will only get worse due to President Muskrat and his lapdog trump, encourage people to be abusive.

Not saying their perfect and nor is any airline, however try making a complaint to most other companies. The airline industry is more regulated than most.

The curfew times are publicly available: The airport closes to scheduled arrivals at 11:30p; the midnight hard stop provides a 30 minute grace period for delayed flights. The flight in question is scheduled to land at 10:50p, 40 minutes before the grace period starts. Reasonable? With that margin of 70 minutes and a 108 minutes-late departure, Ryanair wagered that they could make up the 38 minutes in the air. They lost that wager, and that's on them.