VASAviation has just covered a recent close call at New York LaGuardia Airport (LGA), which is just another example of the extent to which our air traffic control system needs reform.
Continue reading: LaGuardia Near Disaster: Plane Takes Off From Occupied Runway
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
DJT, my friend, may I kindly take a moment to present another point of view? New York is a city where both extremes (extremely good and extremely bad) coexist to a degree not found anywhere else in the world. This much is true of any entity in New York whether it is a person, a building, a restaurant, or an arts show. Within the span of 10 seconds in the city you can meet a horrible human being, and immediately thereafter, the most charming and personable spirit you can imagine.
Should one focus on the negative extreme, then New York is a shithole. Should one take the opposite approach, though, New York truly is the greatest city on earth. Steadfast adherence to a stoic philosophy and magnetism to the good extreme are needed to hold the latter belief.
It’s crazy to me that aircraft using/crossing a runway to taxi are on ground frequency. At my airport, any aircraft crossing or taxiing on a runway does so under tower’s control, not ground.
Amateur JoeSaurus wants a raise so human ATC can live like kings.
Time to keep the skies safe from human error.
Look, air traffic controllers are really hard working
Can we please stop with these platitudes which are not even true? Certainly not in New York, the capital of mergers and acquisitions and other economic activities that require actual hard work. I've never heard of a single Air Traffic Controller spending 40 hours straight in the tower but that's exactly what corporate associates at investment banks and law firms do all the time when a deal is closing.
Bankers and lawyers have an extra set of clothes and a stick of deodorant at their desk because the unscheduled all-nighter is so routine. These firms have runners to take dry cleaning to and from the office. Onsite doctors are available and--of interest to this travel community--CBP has held Global Entry interviews in the office.
Hard work means going to the office at 9am and still being there at 9am the next morning all while maintaining a sharp appearance and pleasant demeanor appropriate for client service interactions. I realize there is a stereotype of high financiers being insufferable twats and there are certainly such individuals (which I state with regret) but by and large this group is refined and high class on top of being the hardest workers you'll see.
It is an insult to say ATC are hard working especially in New York City where you find such a critical mass of financiers and lawyers. Lawyers at my firm routinely bill 3,000 hours a year when the average American merely works 2,000 hours and believes they deserve a medal for their hard work.
Let's calibrate our expectations of what hard work really means.
And now we've heard from the finance bro. Yes, we definitely want air traffic controllers working for 40 hours straight. That'll keep things safe.
Air traffic control is a *real* job, not like the leeches in M&A.
I take it you flamed out on the LSAT and couldn't get into law school because logic is clearly not your strong suit. I did not say ATC should work 40 hours straight (although I also did not oppose that idea). What I opposed was the notion ATC is hard working.
M&A associates are not leeches, they are what make the US economy the global powerhouse it is. There's a reason M&A is so lucrative and "real" jobs are not. "Real" jobs add little value to GDP; the label "real" is given out as cope so poor slobs who, I suppose like you, lack the intellectual prowess to attend law school, can feel like something other than complete and total losers in life.
Time for someone to make a decision and reduce capacity, I doubt the airlines or the airport wants to make that choice so the government will need to step in! It’s getting ridiculous and in the long term will harm public trust in the system the longer all these issues continue.
Just stop with this. That lawyers and financiers work long hours (for amazing pay) is well known and also bad outside of exceptional circumstances. There are regular stories of finance people dropping dead due to exhaustion. That shouldn't just be part of the job. But if you get something wrong on the merger of Corp A Inc and Corp B Inc, no one dies. If you get something wrong on a runway, 300 people are dead. What are you even trying to do? Justify ATCs working even harder and making more mistakes?
Let's allow critical workers to get a good night's sleep between shits.
PoliteNew …. Place in America!
I have marked your post as helpful because I totally agree with most of what you say. However, one does take exception to one sentence …. that guff about that New city on the Hudson. Please be advised that the real York has the claim to being the greatest York on earth …. 🙂
I hardly think how much time someone spends at work is reflective of how hard they work.
you have got to get these transmissions sent via text simultaneously.
Having another pilot stepping on important transmissions is unacceptable.
Oh, geez, finance-bro, speaking of logic fails, you're simultaneously chickening out of your first statement (whiny finance-bro voice: "That's NOT what I said! (sobs)") but then flipping around and saying it again. Good job. Would you like to settle on a position at any point?
And I dearly love the whimpering about "global powerhouse" and trying to measure everything by money. That's exactly what leeches would say.
It seems as though there are airports that have too many flights albeit this was at 12:30AM. Not exactly prime time for take offs at LGA.
Could we also mention the United pilot did not listen to the instruction to exit at this designated taxiway? So it was double failure - mistake by the pilot and Air Traffic controller.
Damn. I just switched an upcoming flight from EWR to LGA precisely to avoid this kind if thing. I guess there's no escaping it.
This post is satire, right? If the expectations of hard work are NYC financiers, apparently I need to be drinking a lot more at work.
Starting to make it seem like the DEI policy was the only thing keeping people safe...
As I understand it, the UAL plane had already landed and was on a taxiway, but needed to get back on a runway in order to reach the taxiway that would take it to its gate. Is that correct?
And when you write, "Also, when the tower controller says “I thought United had cleared well before that.” Like, based on what? Did he check/look at the radar," -- is there ground radar at LGA, tracking movement on taxiways and runways? My understanding is that at many airports, the reason there are towers is because they are the only way to follow movement on the ground. You don't really need towers to see airplanes in the sky, do you? At least, TRACONs don't use them.
Reduce the volume of traffic!!! Yes I said that. People can plan for time/routing that works but keeping pressure on ATC and the $$ profit is just plain stupid.
Am not surprised at Spirit randomly getting in the way (of the ATC conversations)
The Eagle pilots could not see United on the runway in front of them? I am sure brake cooling requirements canceled the Eagle flight.
Dear lord ARPS, why don't you read the room already?!? When other readers are straight out wistful for the days when a xenophobic, racist POS would frequently comment, you've lost the room already. On one hand, I guess we should be glad you have the job you do, are as good at it as you say you are, otherwise it would be sad to think of just one more lonely guy in his parents' basement staring at his dick all day long wishing it would get bigger.
On the other hand, for such a successful guy are we to assume that you never leave the office or take holiday? When yo do, do you criticize all the service staff at hotels, or on the plane, or in the lounges and bars that you go to and tell them they don't know what "real hard work" is? The fact that you're such a one-note wonder only makes me think that you're a two-pump chump.
Have a little grace and try to keep your mind open to the fact that there are ALL SORTS of jobs out there that require all sorts of talents. And some talents, when fully realized, can be exhausting after just 30-40hrs of work a week. Or in the case of ATC'ers, 30-60mins at a time, 6-8 times, spread across 12-14 hours a day.
Had to reply to someone below, so pardon the tardiness.
This smacks of complacency, in three parts: the tower controller who assumed UA was exiting as directed, the UA crew who (generally and rightfully so) assumes the runway is theirs for as long as they are on it, and the RPA crew who were late, just wanted to get underway and accepted a takeoff clearance without full situational awareness (SA).
Lucky's headline of "This incident was so avoidable, no?" will apply to SO MANY future near-misses, and probably a few tragic losses. We have a huge number of pilots being pushed hard by their employers to fly schedules that continue to toe up-to-the-line of "legal". Most of these younger, up-and-coming pilots have a fraction of the experience of others in their shoes just 10-20 years ago. They don't know how to refuse a trip, their eyes are focused on getting to the next step at a major airline to get that moneyshot.
Our ATC system is overworked, understaffed, under-supported with old, botchy tech... and while yes, that should/could have been corrected in years/decades past, it is NOT unlikely the current administration is insincere about making any true improvements, but only about making positive headlines and holding their breath that the public will forget about it and let the whole circus carry on.
Are we ready for Waymo? Works great on the ground for cars here in SF. You try first in an airplane though, virtually everyone on this board is more expert (and braver) than me. Waymo would not have missed the exit but might have freaked out (when Waymo freaks out it stops) about on oncoming aircraft.
Hundred of flights take off and land from LGA every day with no incident. You and everyone else escape disaster every day by design.
Cut the FAA and Controller staff and save me a few tax dollars - great!!!! As long as I am not on one of these flights controlled by a reduced staff on a communication system that is busted! Seeing a 747 coming at me on a runway at 100 knots would be a bit scary - so, please tax me until I am not dead!!!
I think this is a big part of the issue. We have more air traffic controllers than ever before, but they're still understaffed and overworked because air traffic has grown much faster than the ATC workforce. Typical scheduling at the major airports depends on perfect weather, with anything more than short weather delays causing major cascading issues along the rest of the airlines' networks. You just can't expect a system to run at 100% capacity forever with no issues, reality doesn't work that way, but that's what the airlines are trying to do.
It's sure good that we'll have fewer FAA staff because Elon fired them, right?
I am not reading OMAAT for very long, but this is by far the most ridiculous comment I have seen so far. Someone needs a reality check here about hard work.
You're an idiot. If you're really an attorney for Skadden, then I'll never ever hire that firm, even for a traffic ticket.
Done both. Let me point one significant difference. If the banking associate falls asleep at his/her desk they may lose an excel file. If controller falls asleep at scope we may lose 500 people.
I have to assume you work in finance, which should make you intelligent. That said, your comment has the intellectual capacity of a third grader!
Congratulations! You win the most idiotic answer of the day. No controller jobs were cut - in fact, they were expanded. What was cut are the DEI vogons who literally had no other job other than race bait within the agency. But keep believing the same idiots who told you Joe Biden "was sharp and running circles around his staff."
Wait, so you're an associate? That means you're someone's b!tch. Until you become a partner, you're like a kernel... you'll either pop, or you won't. Many people on this site are airline pilots who make more than you, work way less than you, have far better quality of life than you, and aren't nearly as pretentious as you.
Now go get your boss a double shot before you get fired.
Agree that having two controllers directing on the same physical tarmac is asking for trouble.
But as with a recent other incident in USA, I am astonished that runways are used for taxiing.
Other that some very small airports where the runway juts narrowly into water, do European countries allow this?
(LCY built an extension to the taxi-way over the water fairly recently to eliminate the need to come back along the runway)
Typically LC will issue taxi instructions to the aircraft on the rwy including the exit twy and to contact ground after exiting. Would help to hear the audio synced to the radar. At 13:30 am there usually combined positions
Not true. Maintenance, Information Specialists, among others. Those Info Specialists probably have a hand in hiring and vetting new hires, which could make a 1-2 year hiring process worse. You are making up stuff and don't have a clue how the FAA or ATC work.
I don't know where 40 hours straight came from. No controller has ever worked 40 hours straight. 10 hours is the max by law.
You do know that those let go had nothing to do with ATC? Also this problem existed under Peter. What did he do exactly. You also realize Bidum didnt hire over 1000 controllers that were qualified because they were...you guessed it white.
Ditto what Rob said. The faa is now fast tracking atc applicants through the hiring process.
Thank God no one or no plane was damaged. Things happen real fast in aviation and staying ahead is key to safe operations.
White is the reason they are auto qualified?
I don't give a damn if the person piloting the aircraft is the colored in polka dots, as long as he or she has met the standards specified in the Code of Federal Regulations.
Dumbing down curriculum in order to promote a feel good social experiment is not the way to go about it.
The job is hard enough as it is without having to deal with known mental inferiority.
Communications system is not "busted". Works perfectly. I should know, I use that system every single day.
Damn right! It is a job that 97 percent of Americans can not do. Why? Because, all men and women are not created equal. Maybe in the eyes of the Lord but not when it comes to controlling traffic and piloting an aircraft particularly in the Airline Transport sector.
The amount of training and schooling ATC's and pilots have to go through is pretty remarkable. As a professional pilot, I can say that there is no other profession known to mankind that is as heavily scrutinized as what ATC'S and Pilot's have to endure and for good reason.
The mental testing, physical examinations, and check rides do not stop once you have earned the certification. No, you have to prove you meet the standards regularly until you retire at age 65.
Blessings!
@Tra
Presumably the controller's shift started long before the incident and they were running full tilt until a couple hours prior. Are you as sharp for your last 2 hours after 6 nonstop busy ones?