While those of us in the passenger cabin of an aircraft might not think much about it, all kinds of stuff is being transported in the cargo hold of planes, like human remains, including coffins.
Continue reading: Interesting: Why EL AL Has Coffin-Free Flights
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Just a quick clarification: Cohenim are decedents of ritual priests, but aren’t necessarily religious leaders today. And not every religious leader today is a Cohenim. A
This makes perfect sense and is both rational and logical. This is not completely and utterly ridiculous in any way. (Eye roll)
Was coming here to say the same as Matt. I myself am a Kohen but I am far from a Rabbi. It is referenced to those who descend from the Levite tribe in Israel, that cannot become impure to the presence of Human remains. It's a significant size population of Kohanim.
Anyone with the last name "Cohen" is usually a Kohen for what it's worth.
As Matt said, Kohanim are not necessarily religious leaders today. They are simply descendants of Aaron (Moses' brother), who served in the Jewish Temple when it stood. Still, there are certain stringencies that Kohanim try to adhere to even today.
Kohanim are not permitted to be "under the same roof" as a Jewish body. Many Kohanim relied on the opinion that the decedent is not under the same "roof" when in the cargo hold, as they are separated compartments (and the remains themselves are sealed in a box). El Al is offering this flight as an option for those who do not hold of that opinion.
El al is run by very religious Jewish people that's why these seemingly mundane things to the average westrener happen. And the US by far has the biggest Jewish population in the world including more than Israel so many religious Jewish people go through this route probably much more than on other routes so it's probably to accommodate them.
This is my theory as an Israeli jew why.
It's kind of like how Arab airlines have a prayer in them very commonly before the safety video, it's to accommodate the majority of population that uses them. Most of the people who use El al, especially from the US which has the biggest Jewish population in the world are Jews. I'm an atheist jew myself and don't see a significance to this as I don't see for the prayers but I can see the logic that is behind this.
Ben, I've been reading your blog for some time now and as an Orthodox Jew I definitely smiled when I saw the title of this article.
One thing about Kohanim (priests): They are the descendants of Aaron (the brother of Moses). It is something that you are born into, and for Kohanim to be able to travel to Israel, they need to fly on a coffin-free flight or rely on certain leniencies in Jewish law that not everyone relies upon.
Kudos for covering this!
The 777-200 HD seats have been referred to as coffin seats.
Questioning, which religious text covers airplanes?
It's probably not gonna take long until the bots invade here again because you mentioned El al...
IIRC, a few years back, LY had to re-route flight patterns around TLV because it overflew a cemetery, and that was "too close"
Even as a non Jew I find your comment to be in very bad taste and offensive.
Clearly you opened your mouth before engaging your brain cell.
Matthew, thank you for saving me some time typing this out. Kohanim currently are not "leaders" as Lucky said. Because of their ancestral roots they retain a formal and public ceremonial role in synagogue prayer services, as well as some other things. These special roles have been maintained in Orthodox Judaism, and sometimes in Conservative Judaism. My Uncle was a Kohan and my memory of him not coming into the cemetery for my Aunt's family funerals but entering the cemetery for his wife's funeral is clear. Although I hadn't thought about planes, it makes complete sense to me for people who are Orthodox Kohanim.
People have also sometimes referred to the throne seats in a staggered configuration as coffin seats.
Why don't they just tell the passengers they are all coffin-free flights?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Criticizing others' religious practices as 'ridiculous' is an awesome look, @Bob.
Obviously for some moronic religious reasons. One doesn’t need to read the story to arrive at that conclusion…
Why can’t one make a sarcastic remark about how terrible the airline is (which it undoubtedly is)?
El al is run by very religious Jewish people
Really?
I doubt this. El Al is run by Economics-graduated managers aiming at maximum profit just like other corporate managers as well.
Do you really think they like the idea of having their planes on the ground on Shabbat, putting them at an enormous disadvantage over their competitors in terms of overheads and cost structure?
Do you really think they’d normally voluntarily even consider coffin-free flights and building complicated logistics and communication around this topic?
There’s economic, religious and political pressure on El Al to do these things.
If they had an option, I bet they wouldn’t give a toss and manage their operations just like any other airline does.
You always see the same trying to promote hate comments but i always see no effect. Can you relax and calm down a bit?
By definition, religion is neither rational nor logical. That is why it is called faith. You either believe or you don't. You do you, but unless it impacts you negatively you don't have to say anything
Who determines what is considered being in the presence?
And what is the presence test used?
Same building?
Same city?
Same state?
Same continent?
Same planet?
It's always educational to explain religion from different perspectives.
There is someone somewhere who can see all and know all.
Can't get away with lying.
This is a detailed area of religious law beyond the scope of a comment section. The short answer is that it's somewhere around "same building" or "same enclosure," but the definitions of those are a subject of long debate among rabbis past and present.
Ben -- others have made the comment already about kohanim not being "religious leaders" anymore.
Please update your article -- it's cringe-inducing. And next time, consult an observant Jew for fact checking on things like this 🙂
Am sure this was blogged a number of years ago as I still have the image of that Jewish chap wrapped in a bag on board, just google image “Jew in a bag” , not the most flattering search I know but that image has stuck in my mind.
Imagine how many flights it would take to transport the vaporized remains of the tens of thousands of victims of isreals genocide. #neverforget
#nomoreinfanticide
"Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool."
Mark Twain
Thus, religion is neither rational nor logical. Otherwise, tens of millions of people needed not die in the name of religion. A business is run based on profits with accommodations for religious and cultural adherences. Islam forbids interest but all Islamic banks charge interest on loans and mortgages. Religion is hypocricy. Its teachings apply to the flock but not the preachers and leaders.
Asking out of genuine curiosity… what are the consequences for the Kohanim if a passenger dies on one of these flights?
When you can't do anything you can't.
The point is to try to make sure not to be under the same roof as a dead body. And even more, not to fly over a cemetery which can be sometimes challenging. For example in Budapest one final approach route (runway 13l) is flying directly over the Jewish cemetery (which is right near the airport) so many Kohanim are never flying to Budapest because of that.
Great, thank you so much!
Did you know this is a discussion about an airline not carrying caskets on certain routes and days?
Or in other words, "Sir, this is a Wendy's."
My grandfather went to Palestine (prior to establishment of the State of Israel) for his father's funeral and was not permitted to enter the cemetary, as we are Kohanim. So when I saw this headline, I assumed it was for the same reason. Being Chosen has a mixed bag of privleges and burdens... Andrew Cohan
I disagree with your diagnosis, but would hasten to add that when your beliefs start infringing upon the rights of others, or dictating that you remove parts of infants' genital organs, then it's time to have a long, hard think about what you believe, and why.
I’m 99.7% Ashkenazi, Conservative/Zionist views. Never heard of this. Makes sense that ELAL provides this service to honor religious law.
Let’s lighten up this conversation.
A husband and wife take her mother to Israel. The mother dies. The funeral director offers to bury her in Israel for $200 or ship her back for $2000. They decide to ship her back to the USA. Why would you spend that money asked the funeral director. The man answered 2000 years ago they buried someone here and he came back after 3 days.
Interesting!!!
A follow up question.
What happens when someone died in their presence?
Do they lose Kohanim status?
Can they requalify for Kohanim or they have to go through some punishment?
What are some of the privileges and burdens?
And since this is also about El Al, do you get lifetime Matmid Platinum?
And is it safe to say every Cohan/Cohen is Kohanim?
This is a post about an Israeli Airline being straightforward with its clientele about a matter that some are concerned with. Coffin free flights infringe upon no one.
Proper Jewish beliefs are personal and should not infringe upon the rights of others. (I assume you refer to men not wishing to sit next to women, which is not telling the woman what to do.)
Circumcision, which you so graphically referred to is practiced increasingly prophylactically outside of religious needs. Would you be as concerned in those cases?
Likely yes, safe to say, with exceptions. Religion is matriarchal. Kohen is Patriarchal.
Not related to any of your political or religious agenda.
Scientifically, if the remains are vaporized or in vapor state, you should be able to transport none or all in one flight.
Depending on how you determine what consist a vaporized remains.
When and if you ever hear of a Talmudic discussion, this is what they are made of.
While some halachic authorities forbid Kohanim from flying on a plane carrying coffins, most other contemporary halachic authorities do approve doing so.
The baggage compartments on El Al airplanes conform to the required dimensions of empty space needed in order to properly separate the baggage compartment from the passenger cabin so that the tumah (ritual impurity) does not enter the passenger cabin. In fact, the baggage compartment is also constructed in such a way that it is halachically considered to be a separate structure from the body of the airplane. Therefore, there are no concerns that a Kohen may be in violation of being in the same “domain” as a dead body. There is also a unique, halachically approved method for packing coffins on these flights that prevents the tumah from spreading to other parts of the plane.
I think it is necessary to stricly separate state and religion. In this sense, if it is a private decision by the management of ElAl, which seems to be privately controlled in this moment, this is obviously their right to decide so. However, if the Government of Israel had intervened in favour of religion, this would be completely unacceptable.
They didn't anticipate the invention of aeroplanes, the text runs something along the lines of "under the same roof" so planes are caught by that clause.
El Al may be in private hands but its operations are still influenced by government - note the lack of flights between Friday afternoon and Saturday night.
Ah, I was waiting for the Jew haters to crawl out of the woodwork on this El Al post.......
Protesting the genocide of thousands and thousands of people doesn't make you a Jew hater.
Cohanm become ritually impure when they come in contact with the dead, they are forbidden to work in the holy temple. They need to dunk in a ritual bath to be purified.
Plenty of exceptions. I am a Katz (stands for Kohen Tzedek - holy priest) but not a Kohen due to an adoption a few generations ago. As with some others, I immediately guessed what was going on from the headline - not a surprise at all and extremely important for those who don't consider the baggage compartment Halachically (Jewish law) separate from the rest of the plane.
Kohanim can lose their status in certain limited circumstances, but this is definitely not one of them. Kohanim are allowed to attend funerals of very close relatives, and there is a particular law that if a Jew died and there was nobody else to take care of the burial, even the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest (in Temple days) would take care of the burial. That being said, observant Kohanim generally do everything they can to avoid contact (including this indirect level of "same building", "same plane", etc.) with the dead, except for close family funerals.
Not mentioned yet is that El Al has to balance multiple religious requirements here. Jews try burying their dead as fast as possible. The less flights available, the harder it gets to have a quick burial.
El Al is controlled by an Eli Rozenberg, an Harddi (ultra-orthodox) Jew from Mkney New York. Owns 43% of the sashes.
I guarantee he wants all those things you said he doesn’t want.
“ And the US by far has the biggest Jewish population in the world including more than Israel”
Wikipedia disagrees with you: “Israel has the largest Jewish population in the world.”
About 7.5 million Jews live in Israel. Only 5.8 million in the US.
“ note the lack of flights between Friday afternoon and Saturday night.”
43% of their stock is owned by a Haredi (ultra-orthodox) Jew. He absolutely doesn’t want flights on the sabbath or Jewish holidays.
just wanted to point out that starting October 1 2024 El Al do provides coffin service on all of its flights, including LY002. Here’s the link: