New York has some of the world’s most congested airspace, so it’s important for pilots to be prepared, brief the approach, etc. Here’s an example of two airline pilots who seemingly approached New York Kennedy Airport (JFK) completely unprepared, in a way that’s rather concerning.
Continue reading: Brutal: Unprepared Viva Pilots Approach JFK, Try To Land On Occupied Runway
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Much ado about nothing. Happens more often than you think. Planes have even lined up into a parallel taxiway. That's why the controllers didn't raise temperature.
The initial ASALT confusion seems to be an accent problem. They flew the course correctly. The only mistake they made was an early turn into 12R on a normal approach. Looks like a visual approach so probably just got confused with the lights. Likely their first flight into JFK.
Sure, it wasn't professionally done but happens often enough.
@ GV -- I respect your take, and in isolation, I'd agree. It's one thing if they couldn't get the ASALT detail right, but then lined up with the correct runway. But the fact that they did both (among other things) suggests they weren't prepared for the approach. Do you have a different take on that?
If you're flying the RNAV Z 13L you'd expect to be cleared to ASALT, so can this really be an accent issue, when they were utterly confused by that instruction? I'd argue that between English and Spanish, it's actually one of the terms that should be easier to understand.
As a pilot (general aviation small jets), I frequently fly into congested terminal areas and airports. I agree with Ben, this lack of preparedness and basic understanding of the approach plate is what I would expect from someone with very few hours, flying much smaller equipment.
I fly into JFK countless times per month and I still over-familiarize myself with the days operation. How could anyone who ever flies or plans to fly an approach into JFK not know ASALT is ludicrous.
This ignores that they would have had a full scale deflection on their CDI when they lined up with 13R as the distance between the runways is 1NM
Totally different than a
I’m quite shocked about this, since I fly viva all the time in Mexico and the pilots have always been great and professional. Plus they’re used to congestions considering how chaotic Mexico City is so it’s not like it’s their first time at a major airport.
I am just guessing from their initial path their default flight plan had DVETO as next fix in their nav before ASALT to join visual to Runway 13. And may be they were fixated mentally on that to absorb the direct ASALT when they were given that instruction. So, asked for that again as that might not have been visible on their NAV screen.
Hard to second guess without knowing their default flight plan entered, the initial contact to request the approach and the interaction there, etc.
If they had flown frequently into JFK, they might have experienced both options and be prepared.
Some airlines provide annotated approach plates to their pilots to be briefed. Because, there may be multiple options for a given approach plate.
Don't know what they had been given before.
The turn to 13R was a f-up but I think just the same underlying cause of first time flight into JFK.
I agree it shouldn't happen but these things keep happening even with experienced pilots.
Wouldn't necessarily attribute to lack of preparedness. First time jitters may be.
Modern avionics has dumbed down piloting I think to be less situationally aware than without it.
One has to wonder if this was a language problem and the pilots simply didn't understand English. Yes they're required to speak English, but it's often a second language and some pilots aren't that good.
No korrecto. To be a good pilot includes the ability to communicate and to navigate in congested airspace, especially when operating an airliner with many souls on board.
We must to be more critical without being afraid to offend minorities. This is a life and death endeavor after all.
Ben is right on about this.
Putting the IFR plate for JFK on the site is precisely the kind of data that proves that there are procedures that need to be followed and this crew did not do that or even know what they were supposed to be doing.
I suspect that there will be some communications w/ Mexico's aviation authority
@ Jd — The carrier’s name is now just Viva, there’s no Aerobus in the name anymore.
@Ben
You wrote Viva Airbus in the 'Bottom Line' section, thus the correction...
@ Jd -- I believe I wrote "Viva Airbus A321neo," with the "Airbus A321neo" referring to the aircraft type, and not the airline. While you're right that Viva's website still has the "Aerobus" in the URL, the airline has officially rebranded:
https://mexicobusiness.news/aerospace/news/viva-aerobus-rebrands-viva-new-logo-and-livery
Lucky, you should be calling these Mexican airlines out. Now Viva and Volaris will be merging so essentially the same airliners. Volaris caused a near fatal and disastrous incident at IAH… this is very concerning for Mexican aviation. A lot of their pilots are very young and brand new and they do not have a 1500 hour requirement like the US…
There was another minor kerfuffle on the JFK Final frequency at about 4pm on Dec 30. Heavy arrival traffic flow to Runways 31, and an Air France 777 pilot finally objected to one too many vectors. The belligerent training controller broker in on the trainee, and scolded the pilot right back. Pilot: “Left, right, left, right, we are getting sick up here”. Words to that effect. In my view (former ATC), there really wasn’t a right or wrong in this particular case. So, funny, but yeah, only here in NY, right?
Anecdotal experience regarding professionalism, but in visits to 50+ countries only a lazy Mexican immigration officer flipped to the last page of my passport to stamp instead of spending a few seconds to find the next available space or blank page.
Inexperienced crews? I mean, most Mexican pilots should have flown the approaches at MEX, which is plenty "big airport in a huge city" so presumably they're not just confused by their first time at a major airport. Poor training & inexperience, I'd guess...
This is exactly why certain jurisdictions need to completely blacklisted from flying over US airspace. Mexico is well known for being able to pay off a few people to pass licensing requirements. These pilots should have been required to pass all FAA approved training in the US or somewhere with reliable regulators.
At the end of the day the US has very old ATC procedures. So, I'm not surprised this happened.
I expect ATC was calm because they recognized this was actually a potentially dangerous situation, and professional instinct kicked in. As opposed to their usual state of being grumpy New Yorkers who argue with pilots to relieve boredom.
The pilot clearly wasn't familiar with JFK because almost nobody ever lands on 13R, it's almost exclusively used for takeoffs...
Algunas veces no se equivoca de pista sino inclusive de aeropuerto,la maniobra de irse al aire es perfectamente normal y nó se debe criticar a los pilotos como se está haciendo, para éso existen los radares y controladores. No exageren por favor