Lufthansa Group’s fleet is currently undergoing a modernization, and in particular, the long haul fleet of the flagship Lufthansa brand is seeing the most updates. Unfortunately this hasn’t worked out nearly as smoothly as planned, between certification delays with the Boeing 777-9, and delivery delays with the Boeing 787-9.
Continue reading: Lufthansa Group’s Plans To Simplify Long Haul Fleet By 2030, Cut Six Plane Types
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
About time (and long overdue). Lufthansa is a mess. Old planes. Dated products. Allegris is complicated. All of the brands exude mediocrity.
Do you think that this "no First awards on Allegris" policy will hold until 2027?
@ Dror -- I think it's likely that at some point it'll be opened up to some Miles & More members in some capacity (maybe to Senator members and above, at inflated pricing). However, I doubt we'll see it made available for partner awards, simply because there are only three seats...
Since no mention is made of LH retiring the A380 (unless this was previously announced), will this fleet continue beyond 2030?
@ 767-223 -- It's undecided, as Lufthansa is waiting to see what it does with the A380. I imagine that will be determined based on demand levels plus if/when the 777-9 gets certified.
@ Tom -- But I'm sure they'll introduce 24 new ones in the process, since customers love having choices!
Indeed. In the old days, certain airlines afforded greater award availability to those with tier status. We're seeing it coming back at a few airlines now. And, if that's the case, I'd rather opt for Air France if I'm traveling to Europe.
Sorry Ben, read it too fast. I now see you already wrote yet to be determined. Guess I should wait till I have my first cup of coffee before commenting!
@767-223 - Not unless anything has changed LH is still planning on retrofitting the A380 with new seats as from next year (not Allegris but Vantage XL if i remember correctly, basically the same business class seats you find on Qantas' A380s). The plan is to keep the planes flying till the mid-2030s.
Now, the heads at LH keep changing plans rather often. I mean, just this summer there were talks of retiring the A340-300 from December this year but it seems those are staying on till 2027. So let's see how it goes.
"Lufthansa Group’s Plans To Simplify Long Haul Fleet By 2030, Cut Six Plane Types and Carsten Spohr" would have made a much much much more encouraging headline.
One can argue that the A350s along with the A330 can be lumped into one family.
The 77W/9 would be considered a separate family from a technical, maintenance, operational standpoint but should share the same pilot pool.
It just depends on how you look at things.
How competitive does the Lufthansa group need to be, given that they operate across multiple different markets? I'd assume Lufthansa and SWISS have enough corporate contracts and P2P traffic to stay afloat without much of a soft product investment, ITA is good enough as it is, Brussels will probably need a significant soft product upgrade to get attention amidst its limited route network, and Austrian will need a bit of branding help?
Also Discover seems to be doing okay, but Edelweiss surely can't be scalable as it is?
Speaks volumes that it will take 5 years to get rid of excess mgmt staffing but they can park multiple airplane types in 2 to 3 years.
The A330 and A350 have very little in common from a maintenance standpoint
While Airbus says that pilots can be cross-certified across its product line, I am not sure that really works out or does for LH.
and part of LH's problem is that they have ordered some of everything both Airbus and Boeing produced and failed to let those models go when it became apparent those aircraft are no longer economically viable - because many of those aircraft are still to young to retire w/o taking a pretty big accounting hit.
D'oh! I meant both the ceo and neo can be lumped into one family, not the A350 and A330 can be lumped together!
Brussels Airlines route network is very unique - the strongest West African network of any European carrier. Probably not much competition to warrant an improvement in the soft product.
Anyone believe that LH will be flying 777-9s equipped with Allegris cabins by 2030?
What will replace the 370 passenger capacity of the 747-400? The 290 seat 787-9 or 450 seat 777X ?
Will miss the 747-400 on the summer YVR/ FRA schedule. Glad to have flown on it a few times over the years.
No better sight to see at your boarding gate than a 747!
Ben, I'm guessing you were "someone who grew up flying ON these planes".
Also, you should update yesterday's article about Carl's flight Chicago to Hamburg via Rome. Eurowings is responsible for Carl to get EU 261 compensation, and your articles often come up first in any google search, so it would be useful if it was updated to be correct.
If you want to be super sure, happy to share the EU's official guidance on this -- just email me.
The a350 is directly developed from the a380 program not the older a330. Airbus often say that the best thing about the Superjumbo program is how much of it and the lessons learnt along the way, went into the 350 program.
This leaves South African Airways as the last non-sanctioned scheduled passenger airline to use A340s
It's actually 5 types, if we're to be accurate with the language.
9 variants (different aircraft), but only 5 types (joint rating).
It might seem trivial, but whether or not aircraft are of the same type can have a significant financial impact on labor, operation, and training costs.
We all have to move on. Yet wondering why the planes cannot be upgraded with lighter materials and New Engines to improve the Fuel Economy.
Maintenance maybe another issue if the Aircraft Manufacturer doesn’t support older Aircraft’s. Yes 747 is the beauty in the Sky. I still remember my first flight from Chicago to Detroit and the Detroit Basketball team was on the plane.
They definitely have the most *interesting* widebody fleet!
I don't envy the logistics of trying to maintain and schedule that fleet, though...
Many airlines have a fleet containing a few types of planes at most. Easier for repairs. Saves on spare parts and other aspects. The bathrooms - I think the urinals are unique on some of their aircrafts.
About time (and long overdue). Lufthansa is a mess. Old planes. Dated products. Allegris is complicated. All of the brands exude mediocrity.
Do you think that this "no First awards on Allegris" policy will hold until 2027?
@ Dror -- I think it's likely that at some point it'll be opened up to some Miles & More members in some capacity (maybe to Senator members and above, at inflated pricing). However, I doubt we'll see it made available for partner awards, simply because there are only three seats...
Indeed. In the old days, certain airlines afforded greater award availability to those with tier status. We're seeing it coming back at a few airlines now. And, if that's the case, I'd rather opt for Air France if I'm traveling to Europe.
What will replace the 370 passenger capacity of the 747-400? The 290 seat 787-9 or 450 seat 777X ?
Will miss the 747-400 on the summer YVR/ FRA schedule. Glad to have flown on it a few times over the years.
No better sight to see at your boarding gate than a 747!
Since no mention is made of LH retiring the A380 (unless this was previously announced), will this fleet continue beyond 2030?
@ 767-223 -- It's undecided, as Lufthansa is waiting to see what it does with the A380. I imagine that will be determined based on demand levels plus if/when the 777-9 gets certified.
Sorry Ben, read it too fast. I now see you already wrote yet to be determined. Guess I should wait till I have my first cup of coffee before commenting!
@767-223 - Not unless anything has changed LH is still planning on retrofitting the A380 with new seats as from next year (not Allegris but Vantage XL if i remember correctly, basically the same business class seats you find on Qantas' A380s). The plan is to keep the planes flying till the mid-2030s.
Now, the heads at LH keep changing plans rather often. I mean, just this summer there were talks of retiring the A340-300 from December this year but it seems those are staying on till 2027. So let's see how it goes.
Ben, you forgot to mention that Lufthansa will also eliminate 23 seat types.
@ Tom -- But I'm sure they'll introduce 24 new ones in the process, since customers love having choices!
PLAY has cancelled all flights and ceased operations.
"Lufthansa Group’s Plans To Simplify Long Haul Fleet By 2030, Cut Six Plane Types and Carsten Spohr" would have made a much much much more encouraging headline.
One can argue that the A350s along with the A330 can be lumped into one family.
The 77W/9 would be considered a separate family from a technical, maintenance, operational standpoint but should share the same pilot pool.
It just depends on how you look at things.
The A330 and A350 have very little in common from a maintenance standpoint
While Airbus says that pilots can be cross-certified across its product line, I am not sure that really works out or does for LH.
and part of LH's problem is that they have ordered some of everything both Airbus and Boeing produced and failed to let those models go when it became apparent those aircraft are no longer economically viable - because many of those aircraft are still to young to retire w/o taking a pretty big accounting hit.
D'oh! I meant both the ceo and neo can be lumped into one family, not the A350 and A330 can be lumped together!
The a350 is directly developed from the a380 program not the older a330. Airbus often say that the best thing about the Superjumbo program is how much of it and the lessons learnt along the way, went into the 350 program.
How competitive does the Lufthansa group need to be, given that they operate across multiple different markets? I'd assume Lufthansa and SWISS have enough corporate contracts and P2P traffic to stay afloat without much of a soft product investment, ITA is good enough as it is, Brussels will probably need a significant soft product upgrade to get attention amidst its limited route network, and Austrian will need a bit of branding help?
Also Discover seems to be doing okay, but Edelweiss surely can't be scalable as it is?
Brussels Airlines route network is very unique - the strongest West African network of any European carrier. Probably not much competition to warrant an improvement in the soft product.
Speaks volumes that it will take 5 years to get rid of excess mgmt staffing but they can park multiple airplane types in 2 to 3 years.
Anyone believe that LH will be flying 777-9s equipped with Allegris cabins by 2030?
Ben, I'm guessing you were "someone who grew up flying ON these planes".
Also, you should update yesterday's article about Carl's flight Chicago to Hamburg via Rome. Eurowings is responsible for Carl to get EU 261 compensation, and your articles often come up first in any google search, so it would be useful if it was updated to be correct.
If you want to be super sure, happy to share the EU's official guidance on this -- just email me.
This leaves South African Airways as the last non-sanctioned scheduled passenger airline to use A340s
It's actually 5 types, if we're to be accurate with the language.
9 variants (different aircraft), but only 5 types (joint rating).
It might seem trivial, but whether or not aircraft are of the same type can have a significant financial impact on labor, operation, and training costs.
We all have to move on. Yet wondering why the planes cannot be upgraded with lighter materials and New Engines to improve the Fuel Economy.
Maintenance maybe another issue if the Aircraft Manufacturer doesn’t support older Aircraft’s. Yes 747 is the beauty in the Sky. I still remember my first flight from Chicago to Detroit and the Detroit Basketball team was on the plane.
They definitely have the most *interesting* widebody fleet!
I don't envy the logistics of trying to maintain and schedule that fleet, though...
Many airlines have a fleet containing a few types of planes at most. Easier for repairs. Saves on spare parts and other aspects. The bathrooms - I think the urinals are unique on some of their aircrafts.