British Airways has reportedly updated its crew rest policy, to allow flight attendant to occupy empty seats in first and business class on long haul flights, assuming the aircraft don’t have dedicated crew rest facilities. While I’m all for crew being able to rest as well as possible, this definitely doesn’t give off the most…
Continue reading: British Airways Crews Can Now Rest In Empty First & Business Class Seats
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Completely agree. As a paying F BA passenger, I can say that this would reduce the comfort and relaxation factor of having a nice empty cabin.
This is in principle not something new, flight crews on many airlines have seats blocked in F and J for rest. It is just being extended so that the cabin crew can use seats on a space available basis.
I really don't see how this would detract from my passenger experience. But I do fully agree that the lack of crew bunks reflects poorly on the airlines opting to save in that area.
@ CPH-Flyer -- I'd make two points. First, I think there's a difference between a specific section being blocked off, vs. just being able to take any seat. Second, I'm curious, which reputable international airlines can you think of that use business class seats for flight attendant crew rest? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't think of any...
Save time. Kick the seat in front of you instead of pushing the call button when you want a refill.
I don't think this is a bad thing per se.
I've seen Etihad pilots use 787 Business class seats to rest on a couple occasions. They also have curtains around some seats that can be drawn for additional privacy.
The 787-10s are used for a lot of shorter haul flights (LHR to East Coast US) so I assume it makes sense to not fit them with weight-taking crew rests.
Ben posts: “I think British Airways was super cheap by not installing crew bunks on select 777s and 787s in the first place”.
I post: “Balderdash Ben”! Sour grapes, Walter Mitty Dunn type unsubstantiated drivel.
British Airways has multiple configurations on both the Boeing 777 and 787 fleets.
It is my understanding that many BA 777s and all 787 variants do have dedicated crew rest compartments. Former BA crew have described the layouts in detail and passengers can even identify some aircraft because the crew rest compartment occupies space where overhead bins would otherwise be.
On some aircraft, however, crew members do rest in passenger seats, usually blocked business class seats, rather than dedicated bunks. This I have observed on certain BA 777s, also, during periods when crew bunks were unavailable or when an aircraft was configured without a particular rest compartment.
I challenge you to provide evidence that BA has ever said:
“We didn’t install crew bunks because we wanted to reduce costs.”
Finally, I do believe it to be “Super cheap” of you to make such unsubstantiated assumptions.
@ AeroB13a -- "I challenge you to provide evidence that BA has ever said:
'We didn’t install crew bunks because we wanted to reduce costs.'"
Of course British Airways has never said that. This is the airline that markets every devaluation as an enhancement.
Aero: Ben specifically mentions the 787-10 on which BA chose to forego the dedicated crew rest area. Other Dreamliners do have one.
More ‘Dumb Dunn’ assumptions Ben, I really did think that you were better than this.
@ AeroB13a -- I don't really understand the names you call me ("Balderdash Ben," huh?), but let me just address your core claim. You're saying that all variants of British Airways 787s have crew rest facilities. That's simply not correct, as the 787-10s don't. Ask any British Airways cabin crew.
I'm not sure what else you'd like me to say there? When we can't agree on facts, it's hard to discuss things much further.
On CXs A330s, it didn't make sense to add crew rests due to weight, cargo space as the rests are at the hold, and a reduction of seats. So on flights down under and to the Middle East, a section of Economy would be blocked off for the cabin crew while there would be one seat reserved for the cockpit crew during their rest. And when the A330s started to get too small for Sydney and Melbourne, they upgauged to the 77W and A350; The crew rests are overhead for the latter two, so it frees up space for additional cargo.
Depending on the duration of the flight especially on flights to the East Coast, it seems like a sensible approach. It'd only be a problem when the aircraft is used on long-haul flights that are 10 hours or more when the entire crew need a proper crew rest.
Like others here I disagree that BA “cut corners”. It is quite common for airlines not to install crew bunks if aircraft sub-fleets are not being used for flights beyond a certain duration that mandates them. It is not cutting corners but balancing costs against efficiency, which ultimately keeps airfares down.
I've been in J (1-2-1) TATL flights where J was used by pilots. I was obvious to their comings and goings. Sure, an empty J seat behind is better than a pax there. But, a FA there is probably better than a pax.
I mean BA is for sure not the leading airline in making decisions that feel premium and I appreciate you mentioning several points like the ridiculousness of expecting FAs to rest on a jumpseat and how it’s not uncommon for airlines to constantly block some seats for crew rest especially for pilots.
But I don’t understand the exclusivity piece. You paid for one seat, you get one seat. What difference does it make if the flight is full of paying passengers instead? FAs resting in seats also reduce the likelihood of gallery chatter, something that you point out often (understandably so). I’d rather have an FA sit there than some loud, entitled passenger.
Lastly, this is all quite common on other carriers even if there’s not a clear written rules around it. United often does this on the 767s where the FA crew rests are just enhanced economy seats in the back. Oman Air too especially if the second J cabin is empty.
Well they do have doors on the J seats in their 787-10s so why would this bother other passengers ?
And even without doors, how is this different than another passenger (who are likely to be more disruptive than crews on average).
If you want privacy, fly private.
I give BA (and many other airlines or crews) crap for many things but this doesn't seem to be any problem.
And another point: if these seats weren’t occupied by FAs, they would most likely go to non-revs anyways who are also employees. I know you make the point to mention this too. I know you’ve said you could never work at a typical 9-5 job in an office or be a crew member but you come across (sometimes) as a person who has some unwritten beef with airline employees which is weird because nearly everyone in the industry most likely earns less than you.
@ JD -- I'm sorry I come across that way to you, but I have absolutely zero beef with airline employees, and greatly respect what they do. As I explained, I think it's ridiculous that they're expected to rest while sitting upright in galley jump seats.
If anything, I think people typically accuse me of being too anti-management, rather than too anti-employee, since I think 99% of issues at airlines originate from poor leadership.
@ JD -- Blocking economy seats for flight attendant crew rest is common, and blocking a business class seat for pilots is also common. It's the "take any open seat on the plane" policy that's not common (which isn't to say that it's a problem, but it's not common).
Not sure what the issue is here. I travel Singapore Airlines frequently in First and Business Class and probably half of the time I have pilots resting in adjacent seats to me on longhaul flights.
I'm going to start sneaking up into the J cabin and if I get called out by a passenger I'll just claim I'm an off duty flight attendant...
Yes, not a problem with crew sleeping in an extra lie-flat if the aircraft does not provide that in the crew design. My issue is that April 1st announcement of BA being "proud" to allow people to speak for hours during flights on their cellphones. Now, it is very common for people to speak (loudly) on their speaker phone option and it could not be more annoying to someone who respects others.
Ugh for sure this is BA being cheap and short sighted.
Putting crew into business class is never a good idea.
I side with Ben on this issue. Even if the plane does have a proper crew rest facility, this will only encourage the crew to use open first and business seats, as the crew rest bunks are not that comfortable and they can be claustrophobic. Northwest had crew bunks on their widebody aircraft, but the VP of Inflight still allowed the cabin crew to take any open seat in first or business. It's tacky and it shouldn't be allowed. Could you imagine AF allowing cabin crew to occupy empty first seats? There is a certain level of expected decorum in First Class, and sleeping with the crew cheapens the experience.
After taking several BA flights on the Boeing 787-10 aircraft, always in First Class, I was lead to believe that those aircraft on which I flew did have the (above F Cabin) crew rest compartments. Furthermore, I understood that the lack of central overhead bins was evidence of the rest compartment.
After extensive internet searches I have concluded there is currently, unlikely to be, any publicly available primary evidence that the British Airways’ 787-10s either do, or do not, have dedicated crew rest compartments. Ben, has stated that they do not, but he did not cite a source and I have not been able to find an authoritative document from BA or Boeing confirming either his statement or my belief.
Ben, has laced other issues at my door in a post below. When time permits I will address these concerns too Ben.
David, you are not paying for an "empty cabin". In fact BA F is usually full when I have flown them. It is usually just 8 seats anyway and that is what we are paying for.
They have Pilot Crew Rest bunks, those are above F in the very front like you talk about. The FA crew rest bunks on the 787 are located in the very back by the aft galley.
They have Pilot Crew rest bunks not FA crew rest bunks. They are two different things, you're confused. Pilot bunks are up front, FA's if installed are way in the back .
i love that its completely stumped you that maybe, just maybe, ben knows more than you? if youre trying to do an impersonation of Timmy D, youre doing a great job!
Well, well, Mike. That just goes to show that every day is a a school day. Thank you for your insight.
So, the flight deck crew are those who are above the rest of us in F? While the poor FA’s have to ‘rough it’ with the proletariat in the rear. I am obliged to you Mike.
‘arold, I am so pleased that you take pleasure in discovering an infallibility in someone.
Please be advised that I have never pretended to be someone who knows too much about civil aviation. However, British military aviation, soaring and AOP-6 flying is something else old bean …. 🙂
I did not realize the crew are allowed to share the seats/beds with passengers :O
For longer routes there are more than 2 pilots as required by regulations. The additional pilots need to rest and exchange places as schedule. Otherwise there would be no flights longer than 9-10 hours.
"I'm curious, which reputable international airlines can you think of that use business class seats for flight attendant crew rest? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't think of any..."
On flights to the Middle East and down under, the cabin crew on Cathay's A330s use a section in Economy which is curtained off during their rest. One business class seat would be reserved for the pilot as it would be 3 pilots.
BA is already a shit show. First feels like a pub the way they behave in there. The noise out of the galley is another problem. And now finally, they will rest and annoy the paying customer in the cabin as well? Awesome. I don't care, i avoid them like hell after 4 terrible flights in first.
Ben, first allow me to apologise if you assumed that I was calling you derogatory names. I can see how you arrived at that conclusion, it was because I failed to place an exclamation mark (!) after to word “Balderdash”. My mistake, Mr Apple’s fault.
After a great deal of internet research this afternoon I can find no quotable reference to suggest that “British Airways was super cheap by not installing crew bunks on select 777s and 787s”. Do you know something about BA that is not publicly available?
Perhaps it would have been more appropriate and less controversial had you defined “Crew bunks” as ‘Cabin Crew or Flight Attendant’ bunks? Upon the return from his latest trip, I will clarify the 787-10 situation, with my BA Captain neighbour.
You post Dan: “i avoid them like hell after 4 terrible flights in first”.
I am so pleased that you actually went back three times after your first “Terrible” flight. You sound like a real sucker for punishment old sock, if true.
They already block club and first seats for pilots and take the seats out the system for sale. I am BA Staff. It normally the first or last row window seats of the cabin. They have been doing this for years. But not for the flight attendants.
So after paying $8k, you're in Club World on your own, and end up with a centre-middle seat. The adjacent seat is occupied by a crew member half way through. With no divider and on an 8-across configuration.
The last time this happened to me was on RJ. I never flew them again.
This new policy could lead to gate agents working with flight attendants not to fill all the business and first seats with upgrades. If that becomes the case, these premium seats will be going to flight crew rather than passengers. That would have a very direct effect on the passenger experience.
Oh noes. Did the lowly employee dare to look at you? Or breathe the same air? You sound like a knob.
I think an economy seat with 30" pitch and minimum recline would do just fine. It's less lavish than F or J yet somewhat nicer than a jump seat (probably screwed to a restroom door, no less). If it's good enough for BA's cherished passengers, it's good enough for their FAs.
I don't think they should rest at all. It's their job. And they do basically nothing - just serve the meals. BA doesn't have any service - regardless the route. Last time I had day flight from Shanghai to London - 15hrs flight - and I saw crew members twice - when they served the meal. That's it. How on Earth they could be tired ? Doing what?
will they have the power to downgrade ppl so they can keep a business class seat for themselves?
I agree. Personally I don't think they deserve any rest as they do nothing. Literally. Even during 15hr day flight I saw crew members twice - when they served the meal. In between they were chit chatting loudly in the galley. That's it.
But it's not even close to being funny. The difference between Ben and me (us?) is that Ben's job requires him to read (and maybe respond to) this guy's drivel. I don't ever read his stupid comments, but in my skimming I do read most of the responses to the idiot's comments. There's about six of the worst of the lot that everyone ought to ignore. But, alas, to each their own. Yes, Old Bean?!?
Ha, I do my share of economy flying actually. But I don't fly business class to sit next to someone. Most products accommodate that.
Safety. It’s the primary service, and they need to be rested to provide that properly.
Firstly the 787-10 and 777s that this effects have club suits in a 1-2-1 config. Secondly you are paying for a seat, not for any guarantee of any empty seats next to you.
Could you imagine being an air stewardess and working the First Class cabin and seeing an empty seat. But then finding out the flight just returned from India? Lol! That’s ok, I will just stand.
I was once on a Delta flight in BusinessElite (many years ago) with 2x2x2 seating. The cabin was half empty and I moved to an empty pair of two seats. I was completely chewed out by the flight attendant for moving, but I stayed there. Later after the meal service I saw all the flight attendants sleeping in the empty pairs of two seats. Apparently she was made because in her mind those empty seats were for the FAs to use on their break.
I don’t have an issue with this idea in principle, but fear it can lead to things like this where FAs reserve seats or otherwise bother passengers who have paid thousands of dollars to be there.
Chris, Business Class is often full. If you want an empty seat next yo you purchase two tickets and seats.
What upgrades? Passengers are only upgraded when there an operational need to do so and the alternative is to offload the passengers. If gate staff started to deny boarding (and cost BA lots of money in comp + duty of care) to allow the plane to depart with empty seats, I'm pretty sure the management would notice it very soon.
Some of the proletariat who post herein jump on the words “Cheap” and “Premium” as if they actually know what they mean. Apparently, only being accustomed to ‘rear-end’ air travel on LCC builds resentment towards FA’s.
In reality some of those proletariat posters are displaying a most unsympathetic attitude towards FA’s by begrudging them the most basic of human rights, that of rest and recuperation. Furthermore, those who post with an attitude of resentment towards FA’s, need only to look in a mirror to see their own ‘cheap’ faces staring back at them.
Some of us who are accustomed to travelling at the ‘sharp end’ of the aircraft, would rather a hard working FA took an adjacent vacant seat, than be burdened with the ‘cheap’ proletariat types. Now that scenario would most definitely degrade a ‘premium’ experience.
It's pretty harsh of BA to tell FA's to rest in the jump seats... Those are neither comfortable nor private (and no way to tell a FA is "on break" for passengers who might walk up).
This is a weird cheapening on BA's part. Both the intrusion into the premium cabin and disregarding its core employees needs...
BA doesn't fill unsold premium seats with upgrades at the gate like US carriers, so this particular scenario shouldn't be an issue but I agree there is scope for staff to game the system in other ways.
To you Rob, I must say, really!
I know of two such daytime 15hr BA flights which I have taken, those being: Shanghai and Tokyo to London. Seated upfront one does not observe any “Chit chatting loudly in the galley”. Furthermore, the BA FA’s are very pleasant and most attentive at the sharp-end.
Notwithstanding, I find it difficult to believe that you only “Saw crew members twice” in your cabin “When they served the meal”. Perhaps you slept through the vast majority of the flight or were you simply ‘brain dead’?
On a 1-2-1 product, I'm fine with it. My point is that, if an airline is running a subpar product that's 8-across in business class and charging $8000 for it, they should be doing everything they can to give you a good experience. It seems like it would be in their interests not to put people in the adjacent seat unnecessarily, so their weak product feels better.
It's a moot point though as I now do everything I can to avoid J products that are 6, 7 or 8 across, unless they are very heavily discounted.
I’m sure the crews bend over backwards to ensure your every need is attended. Aside from that, BA should have definitely paid for proper crew rest seats. But the reality is that they haven’t, so instead of begrudging a crew member a bit of rest on a 10+ hour flight you can check your entitlement for a little understanding. These seats aren’t pulled from inventory denying you an upgrade.