While not of any consequence, this interaction made me laugh, and I’m sure other avgeeks will get a kick out of it as well.
Continue reading: Arrogant American Airlines Pilot Schooled By LAX ATC
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
This blog has had a number of ATC posts over the many years I've been reading it.
Nasty spats between controllers, particularly ground controllers and pilots isn't something very rare. It happens. Both are put into stressful situations and there you go.
This is both relevant and entertaining.
Hop back in bed, roll over, and get up on the right side. Skip the piss in your Cheerios, and try to have an amazing day!
"Now what instructions did I give you?"
I sympathize with the fact that someone must be holding a gun to your head and forcing you to click on, read, and comment on this post.
Oh, the humanity!
Was this presented as being rare?
I think it was presented as being amusing, as I found it.
This will be up at VFTW soon, I imagine. Will be construed as an obvious leadership fail on part of the CEO.
Quickest way to diffuse that is to simply own it. We’ve all missed clearances before, it’s simply a human factors issue, but to admit the failure and then place blame elsewhere is a colossal fail. They’re lucky they didn’t have a phone number issued to them to call. Cool controller for not stopping to their level.
Totally unprofessional, and not necessary in what is a perpetually tense workplace situation with very slim margins for any errors. It is though regrettable that this story gets picked up here on this blog and why I often take OMAAT with a grain of salt, relative to others. Seems like click bait and an excuse to bash everyone's favorite airline to bash and not really great editorial content TBH.
Both are wrong and correct. The controllers instructions was to hold short Q. Which when the ATC issued the instruction, from a flight deck perspective had already passed into the intersection. H short Q is the red line on H before Q… not the line drawn on the video. It’s akin to a yellow light in the intersection. You don’t stop in the intersection. The standard route for this landing is H, Q, hold short of the runway. Both the controller and ATC know this. The pilot assumes the controller he is intending Short the runway, especially since hold short Q is not possible at the time of the instructions.
Please be less quick to judge others. Especially from a pilot controller event this is a non event.
I used to admire pilots, but their entitled behavior over the last two years has made me realize most of them are d!cks. I’m sure everyone really loves being around this guy.
Im a retired ATCer, pilots and controllers are known to have big egos. Ive seen controllers many times swear they said something. Then listen to the tape, totally different. Both parties mess up, the idea is to fix the problem after the fact and keep your cool, your trying to provide the safest enviroment for the flying public.
Why? The copilot is an entitled millenial idiot. And his Captain should have rebuked the little man
It was just an honest question. Are these click bait buzz feed style posts which was once the rare exception going to become the standard, and high quality travel review and card posts are going to become the exception.
Huh? Short Q means prior to the Hold Short line. You can’t block something you’re instructed to hold short of.
Pilot very wrong.
Lol, I’m definitely one to criticize Ben when it’s due, which does happen much more frequently than it used to, however this is definitely not one of those instances.
For those of that have been here since the beginning, this is actually part of the content we were once used to and enjoyed.
Sounds to me like the FO was telling the captain “I didn’t mess up, you did” with his finger still holding the transmit button down. Getting interpreted as him telling the controller that.
I am a pilot and THAT pilot knows that everything that is said on the radio is recorded. If you get into a pissing contest and they pull the tapes, you can get a violation.The way to deal with this is for the pilot to simply say, "I misunderstood the instructions. Sorry about that. Give them to me again? Going head to head with ATC gets you nothing and ties up the frequency, preventing other traffic from getting where they need to go.
If you bring ego or emotion into the flight deck, then you are simply doing it WRONG. In other words, there is no place for ego or emotion in the flight deck or in an ATC facility. Absolutely unprofessional and inefficient comms from the pilot here. Clean up the foul put your eye on the ball and serve again. Want another analogy? After the first strike, get back into the box and get ready for the next pitch. I have been an airline pilot for 20 plus years. That’s how it’s done.
The worst thing about is that most likely this pilot creates the same culture within the cockpit with his copilots. Having a culture where the pilot can't be questioned and isn't willing to accept criticism from the team around him = dead passengers and crew. Lots of evidence of this in airplane disasters and this pilot needs to be knocks down a peg by American.
I'm going to guess this guy also refuses to get vaccinated against COVID-19, is a Trumper, and all those things. When someone shows you who they are the first time, believe them.
Unbelievable.
They're both wrong, likely both technically and professionally. When the controller issued the taxi clearance, the aircraft was nearly at the Q intersection hold short line. He might not even have been able to see it ahead due to the height of the aircraft. The controller should have just told him to stop or hold his current position. Remember, the controller works this airport every single day. The pilot might be there once a month or year for that matter. Although he has a diagram and there are signs, taxiing around airports is difficult. He has to read back the instruction, look at a chart, look outside, act on the instruction while driving 150K# of metal. Also, he has just cleared the runway, they are running after landing checklists and calling the company on a second radio to check on the gate status. Perhaps if the Tower controller wasn't also working ground control at the same time this also wouldn't have happened and a dedicated ground controller would have given more timely instructions.
I also think the initial taxi read back to ATC is the First Officer. The following snippy remarks sounded like a second person...the Captain. I think what the Captain is likely saying is he didn't tell him to hold short of Q until it was too late...he just poorly articulated it since he was frustrated.
None of the parties should have gotten snitty, even if the other guy did first.
The pilot forgot a basic rule of life. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Mike -- give the tired old political crap a rest. It is infantile and makes the rest of us think you are a sad and tragic figure -- the classic 'keyboard warrior' filled with bile and rage.
Doubling down and insisting you did nothing wrong is simply the American way of doing things, E.g. Elizabeth Holmes. In the end, all Americans are nothing but trash.
Mike, he may have been in the wrong but youuuuuu, youuuu just made yourself the ass-spectacle when the pilot was doing that quite well himself.
Perfect. As a retired airline pilot controllers have saved my ass many times.
On my retirement flight they actually recorded the water show, edited the video to include the entire communication stream and the clearance strip.
As we were cleared for takeoff I thanked the fire dept., the airport ops and ATC. To ATC I said, "thanks for looking after me all these years," and the female controller cried. Very poignant.
Actually this guys attitude, opinion and tone is whats wrong with our country at the moment. He clearly f*cked up and instead of owning it he showed no acccountability and poor decision making skills. He actually doubled down on telling ATC they were wrong. American should remove him from flying for a few more months of critical decision making training. I dont want this guy flying me.
I'm going to "guess" that you're the sorta guy who judges people by their skin color and accent and religion and hair color and their occupation. But hey, don't take it personal! It's a "guess". Exactly like what you're doing.............
We all basically have five this. Thought we heard one thing and everyone around you tells you no that's not what was said. No biggie among friends but when you are working in a environment where safety is a factor, check the ego. This could have been a non issue with a proper response from the pilot.
I flew commercial for 26 years. This pilot was out of line. One of the first rules of flying is you don’t get snippy with ATC. If you don’t understand say so. Don’t assume. This pilot needs an attitude correction.
Can we not get into politics on everything? Unless you're a state sponsored account.
The whole "typical..." liberal/conservative comments are old, tiresome and not original. At least get new material.
Even if what you said is true, the ATC was only wrong technically.
The pilot was wrong both technically and professionally.
Agree - my thought was that this guy is going to have an accident while focused on his anger and responses, rather than being professional and focusing on the job.
Some shift workers just wake up in a shitty mood, looking for a fight. You look at their usual behaviour before we can properly judge.
thanks for the share. with a son finishing his bsae and dil pilot, will fit right in with our usual convo.
Sigh. The world would b so much easier if people would just shut up and listen.
Lol. Sounds like the pilot was mad, not the controller. Hilarious. Imagine all the off-mic conversations after this.
Not only did the ATC prove a point, but like a grade school teacher, made the pilot go to the back of the line for mouthing off! The ATC should give the pilot detention for mouthing off a 2nd time.
I drive a BMW, and I'm not a jerk. It is a great car, was at a great price, and was cheaper as a used model than a new Kia Soul. Please don't judge everyone by the car they drive. Maybe judge them instead based on their belief and adherence to science?
Unprofessional..Back in my day as a Controller, you'd instruct the pilot to call the tower when they get in. It's unprofessional in that the Controller had an audience with many on the freq..
Pilot, if smart, should file ASRS as controller could file violation. Fortunately LAX controllers don’t have time for egos doing what they do best. Most AAL pilots are good sticks and Guy probably called in off reserve. Had similar happening with my airline twenty years ago at ORD. Every carrier has one. It’s always easier to say “I screwed up” and LAX controllers don’t get bent out of shape.
The biggest reveal here is the ego of the pilot. When he gave such attitude towards the ATC, it makes you wonder whether he would be able to check his temper/ego during critical flight operations. Failure/gaps in CRM could result in very bad outcomes due to an ego or superiority complex.
I don't see how the pilot misunderstood -- "H, short of Q" that the pilot said is the sane as what ATC said.
Audio is not the clearest. Sounded like the pilot repeated ‘Hotel to Quebec’. Not ‘Hotel short of Quebec’. There was clearly miscommunication. No reason to be cross with ATC. It was a simple mistake in hearing the instructions. With Covid creating staffing shortages in the industry it is not surprising a simple miscommunication escalated a bit.
I'm an international flight attendant with 33 years seniority at a major airline. I appreciate the experience our pilots amass over the years and enjoy what passes as mutual respect with a tiny minority of them. But it never ceases to astound me at their almost cartoonist inflated self esteem and egos. They receive almost obscene salaries that seems to make them have an unhinged appraisal of their self worth and abilities. Most believe they are experts on everything, though a cursory conversation makes it clear they have an almost adolescent understanding of anything outside of flying an airplane, though automated systems and computers aided by skilled ground personnel like that ATC professional, do most of the flying for them. It's a subtle pleasure to see someone hold up a mirror and take them to the woodshed in a public forum, though nothing will bring them down to earth. Pun intended.
Got this from a couple of my retired ATC brothers. Having been a controller, off
and on for 31 years, this one was just another day at the office. Most got it right,
the AAL guy should have just said one word - "sorry."
I do not know if the animation was correct but if so, the biggest and most dangerous screw up was the a/c turning right on Quebec. That could have put him close to or onto an active runway. Class pilots and controller after it was all
said and done.
The ATC obviously has an issue with pilots. You can't address a pilot like that.
I'M MISSING MY COMMUTE TO PHOENIX BECAUSE OF THIS!!! He prob had his phone out listing for flights and getting upset since the gate was occupied. LOL, what a dork.
Perhaps the first response was by another airplane crew by mistake. The voice sounded different. Or maybe the captain responded. Either way they should have communicated that they didn’t respond to by their aircraft (it’s common to mishear if there’s a other American 50/58/etc and have another crew respond) or understand the initial instructions. Never get into an argument. Although these are angry American pilots.
The Controller is the authority and has the superior view. ALL he had to say was"American hold your position." PERIOD. No telling how long the aircrew has been on duty. Pilot acknowledged instructions and controller issued instructions to taxi to B27 or whatever. ADDITIONAL taxi Instructions CANCELS all former directions INSTANTLY. Wise up.
Apparently the controller gave his initial request to hold short too late as he implied that the airplane had already not stopped short of Q. Compared to O'Hare, LAX is relatively simple once you have the fifty yard line defined for you. Yet LAX seems to incur more problems than the far more complex Chicago. Communication is the main item for ground controllers and EGO seems to
Interfere. NO pilot wants to be unsafe and stopping smoothly is important to the Captain as he is well aware that he has 200 or however many passengers that really don't like fast stops. Not to mention there are many Flight Attendants most likely walking around in the aircraft. The fewer and clearer a controller requests are the better. This isn't a competitive sport. Braking a heavy airplane is far different than most automobiles.
More training for the pilot on ATC communications. Since he repeated the instructions, he heard them correctly, which means he did not understand what he heard. Maybe just a bad day or maybe a serious problem in the making
Based on what imaginary restriction?
ATC is there for safety, not to stroke pilots' egos.
As a reader with a private pilot's license I would advise that pilot lnot to mess with ATC. That could cost you!
I am a Private Pilot. The American pilot did not mess up. The ATC spoke to rapidly and not clearly. The courtesy should have been on the controllers part.
You see this on “Air Disasters” on the Smithsonian Channel “ all the time.
This was on a taxiway, so braking on the runway doesn't have anything to do with it. The hold short was given pretty late, but it is the pilots responsibility to say "unable". Not to continue and hold short of the runway on Q.
I'm a pilot for over 45 years. I thought the controller was pretty professional. The AA pilot was wrong. It could have been over with just accepting the new instructions without comment or a quick apology. Wasn't initially a big deal, since safety hadn't been compromised, but the AA crew decided to escalate their own mistake.
I'm a 45 year pilot. The AA crew read back the instructions as given, so they heard them. Additionally, if they did not understand them, they should have asked for clarification. This is how it works.
Myself and another wide body Intl. Airline Capt with a combined 50000 Plus hours were commuting on an AA wide body to land in MIA - the AA Capt was flying and we were on the two jump seats. When we approached MIA it was CAVOK - light and variable winds with landings on 09L .....it took two visual missed approaches and a third visual approach to literally "...get'er on the ground....." during which time we on the jump seats looked at each other with disbelief and increasing concern. When we landed the AA Capt had a similar attitude when he stated "those F....... controllers cause so many problems......" In both that case and in this case, some of these folks have what is termed in the vernacular "bag-azarian disease" where one is also referred to as a "bag" for short, where the full definition is ........... Your asshole gets so big it encompasses your whole body. Some have it acutely......others chronically......... Airline Professionals know and practice worldwide......you never argue with ATC on any frequency......use your phone to call after you land........have the tapes pulled, and in this case be professional enough to apologize and admit your error..........As to the comment below by Private Pilot H. Simmons your 100% wrong; you show your lack of experience as to the rules of the road including the FAR's. Lose your "attitude" by gaining some "altitude" it will serve you well.
Sounds like both parties need to grow up and act more professional. I will say that I wouldn't screw with whoever was directing me when you are responsible for the lives of hundreds of people. This is why we need more women on the job.
As an airline pilot who has operated in and out of LAX over many years (and other similarly large and busy airports), I will say that the crew on American 58 screwed up and didn't have the professionalism to simply own and fix the mistake. (grin) Most of that company's crews are pretty good, especially the ex TWA folks, but any crowd of humans bigger then a baker's dozen probably contains a moron.
A few points...
- The copilot is usually the one on the radio while the captain taxis the plane.
- No matter who is doing what, it is the captain's job to understand the situation, not let mistakes get out of hand, and keep the flight on an even keel. That means be on the ball and demand the same from your crew.
- Don't argue on the radio. Nobody has time to either engage or accommodate gripes. Make a phone call or write a report if you can't let it go.
- Sterile cockpit during the taxi operation. Don't be "that guy" who hit something, busted a clearance, or broke something on the plane during a rant.
We all get "people" training, called Crew Resource Management, Threat Error Management, and some better airlines even have a corporate lecture on "Just Culture." Captains have gotten many years' worth, while copilots have been through the course at least once or twice in their careers. There is no excuse for losing track of "what is right" and quarreling about "who is right."
(another grin) Perhaps the pilot on the radio is practicing for a job at the other well known operator of 737s, with pilots who repeatedly gripe and rant over the radio...
My Dad was an ATC. He always said neither controller nor pilot should ever argue. The pilot is always to obey AC's instruction and voice levels must stay friendly. Shame on that pilot.
If the graphical reenactment and timing of the audio is correct, it would seem the instructions were given without the ability of the pilots to receive, process and act on the ATC instructions. The jet was crossing the holding short line, in the reenactment, as the pilot was answering the controller. It also sounded like this was night operations on a dark taxiway.
Proper instructions build in a “reaction time” for the pilots to hear what is being said then process the instructions and act on them.
The follow on exchange between the controller and pilot I’ll reserve comment on. That’s another matter.
That is worrisome, those children of the magenta line. I sure hope these mangled visuals and bad attitudes are not indicative of an upcoming wreck. Not that anyone needs to be a hot dog and get down on the first try from a bad set-up, but a pilot ought to know what he needs to do, how to do it safely, and when it is better to not get into something which may end badly.
We'll hear from some of them eventually on the news. Last words...
"This is it, baby!"
"What are those trees doing up here?"
"Watch this..."
"Oh shit! Ohhhhhh!"
Every pilot that interacted with the ATC after AA58 was cordial if not friendly. I take that as votes from them.
It seems that admitting failure is not an option for some folks in this first quarter of the 21st. Lamentable as that is in politics, it is a deadly fault in flying because only by admitting failure can a proficient pilot overcome that failure. Here's a controller trying to overcome a problem by recognizing that it might flow from a misunderstanding: "What did I tell you to do?" getting into an unnecessary verbal exchange with a pilot who wants to cast off all responsibility for the misunderstanding on the controller. Given the awesome responsibility of commanding a flight in an airliner, this irresponsible pilot needs some time off to reflect.
As a general aviation charter pilot, I have had the occasion over the years to "enjoy" many views of LAX following some pretty big hardware in my little C-182, or Piper Seneca. All GA facilities are on the south side of the airport, so when they land you on 24R: Lucy, you have some talkin' and taxiin' to do. With a myriad of taxiways, listening carefully to ground control is central to safe movement of small aircraft at this major airport. I'd far rather hear: "good job" than: "that's not what I told you to do. . .stop and return to B23," but if I heard the latter I would assume it was at least partly my fault because communication is a two way thing. I can't even imagine the level of arrogance that would cause me to tell the controller it is their fault that I messed up an instruction.
Why are so many airline pilots such d!cks? What a misery of toxic masculinity.
This is the new generation of workers. Entitled and arrogant. Military pilots are nearing the end of their career and this new batch are private and do not understand discipline and teamwork. Their work ethic is dismal.
I have flown in and out of LAX over 24 years. Keeping out of trouble and staying safe comes down to consistent safe practices. This includes listening and processing information received from ATC, and most importantly, understanding before proceeding. In this case, harmless enough. Worst case, a runway incursion during low vis and possible loss of separation. If you mess up, admit it. If in doubt, stop and get clarification. I don't buy into excuses such as time on duty and so forth. It's what we're paid to do. There is no room for arrogance such as what was displayed by this crew in this industry of professionals.
At least O'Hare calls (called) it a "penalty box" - kinda fun to go by and see who's in it 🙂
Cool story, grandma. You know what the most consistent belief throughout history is? Every generation thinks the generation that comes after them s lazy and entitled.
Yawn. You know what the most consistent belief throughout history is? Every generation thinks the generation that comes after them is lazy and entitled.
Doubling down, no matter how wrong one is, seems to be the thing to do nowadays. I'd far rather be happy than right any day.
i Hope to hear “possible pilot deviation take down a telephone number to call”
Sounds to me like the pilot said “Hotel to Quebec” and not “hold short of Quebec” and the pilot was intentionally holding short of the active runway AT Quebec. When the pilot says “you told me hold short Quebec” he is still intending to imply holding short of the runway at taxiway Quebec and not holding short of the taxiway itself. As an Air Force instructor pilot, these are the senecios that make me cringe with both controllers and pilots. We need to be clear, concise, correct, and calm (not arguing) in everything we say. In this communication, all the pilot had to do was say “oh, I thought you meant hold short AT Quebec, apologies” and neither player would have gotten sassy.
I'm an AA pilot and this guy (the pilot) embarrasses both myself and our company.
ALL airline pilots are arrogant and ooze self importance from every pore of their body. Instead of remaining silent about their right wing political beliefs like mature adults, they make "Let's go Brandon" announcements and sport the same statements on their luggage. These narcissists think way too highly of themselves for simply being airborne bus drivers.
And there you go, you've just doubled-down on your own version of arrogance and prejudice towards those who have more lived experience.
Oh yes, because women are not snippy and arrogant. The controller acted fine. You guys need to stop with this gender bashing crap.
It’s the ATC that sounds arrogant. Also is it legal for conversations regarding an airline with closed doors allowed. You all must be desperate for material if you are bullying and taking one side against the other.
Typical false pride found in many pilots unfortunately... too insecure to fail..
Insecure crap. It's very plentiful these days. "It's always someone else's fault". Be part of the solution instead of creating more of a problem.
If I posted the number of mistakes ATC made in comparison to pilots when it comes to this topic the ATC mountain would be massive. What a lopsided article. You obviously don't work as a line pilot.
Guys...guys.. guys...and ladies perhaps...relax..its just Covid... 🙂 Im sure the pilot didn't mean to insult the controller. Who in this business doesn't have an ego here!
I am a former pilot, and I commend the ATC controller for his patience in dealing with such a silly conversation! That pilot could’ve caused actual harm or a pile up or something worse, taking up so much bandwidth for his little tirade. Thank you Mr. ATC controller for being so patient with this somewhat confused gentleman!
I know that controller’s voice. He’s been around a long time. He didn’t make the mistake. The crew did and they should feel fortunate if it doesn’t get them in trouble. Whoever was on the aircraft radio is acting like a child. Wrong or right, you don’t argue on the taxiway.